Topic: Spirit of Shankly

[Billy Elliot]

That I found his comparison odd?  Seems pretty straightforward whether you agree with it or not.

SOS aren't paid professionals with PR or communication departments. Yet FSG / the Club end up needing to make far more u turns. Nevermind the whole point is that FSG need to start communicating with fans, it'll only take one more fuck up before it all boils over. And nobody's in a better position that SOS to consult on behalf of the fans.

[Harinder]

Blimey, I thought Amy Seeker post several different twitter accounts had disappeared.

What a place to find resurrection!

[AmSeeker]

We are all Liverpool fans, from the local fan who lives at Anfield, to someone who pays thousands from another country to come and have a day at the club he loves.

The whole tone of 'we are fighting for locals' is just an extension of that aggression against fans not in Liverpool. We are a global club and you should be fighting for all fans.

Either you clarify your stance against fans from abroad, kick out any members who engage in that type of rhetoric, including ban of the aggressive rhetoric like 'KICK OUT THE YANKS' (which is highly offensive to me being raised in America), or in my opinion the club should stay away from yourselves.

[Dave McCoy]

SOS aren't paid professionals with PR or communication departments. Yet FSG / the Club end up needing to make far more u turns. Nevermind the whole point is that FSG need to start communicating with fans, it'll only take one more fuck up before it all boils over. And nobody's in a better position that SOS to consult on behalf of the fans.

Maybe its my fault for not explaining my opinion clearer.  What your stating is not what I was commenting about.  Since this is now distracting the thread I’ll leave it at that.

[Sarge]

AMSeeker have you directly been in contact with SOS itself in relation to your points?

[Welshred]

Still making allegations without a single shred of evidence.

[AmSeeker]

Still making allegations without a single shred of evidence.

'GET THE YANKS OUT' - might be minor, but as someone who was raised in America i find this actually quite offensive. What has the owners nationalities got to do with anything? Either your a professional supporters club, or just local lads in chanting.

They spin the xenophobia with the 'local fans' rhetoric. We all know what the undercurrent is about - out of towners. 


There seems to be a bit of 'i never heard or said anything individually' within the group. Which means they are either blind, don't see anything wrong, or don't have any form of concrete structure to kick out these type of people in their membership.

[Welshred]

It's not racist as its not towards a specific racial or ethnic group. It's not xenophobic as its not aimed towards everyone from the US, more specifically at a couple of people and just happens to be word play to go along with "Built by Shanks" or what you prefer the message to be "Built by Shanks, broken by those darn United States of America civilians"?

The undercurrent may be about out of towners but that applies equally for any from the Wirral to London to anywhere in the world for the extremely slim number of people that this applies to. On the whole the majority of scousers I know will welcome and treat you with respect as long as you understand the club, its ethos and put your whole effort into it at matches without being a crank. Mostly I don't think I've seen anyone actually involved within SOS who would be in a position of power at the club spout any of what you're complaining about.

[AmSeeker]

The undercurrent may be about out of towners but that applies equally for any from the Wirral to London to anywhere in the world for the extremely slim number of people that this applies to. On the whole the majority of scousers I know will welcome and treat you with respect as long as you understand the club, its ethos and put your whole effort into it at matches without being a crank. Mostly I don't think I've seen anyone actually involved within SOS who would be in a position of power at the club spout any of what you're complaining about.

I appreciate your great response.

[FlashGordon]

You're misreading the whole ''Yanks Out'' phrase.

People didn't want them kicked out because they were Yanks, which would be offensive, rather it was a moniker used to identify who the protests were against. Perfectly acceptable due to the two owners being from the United States.

[Billy Elliot]

On the whole the majority of scousers I know will welcome and treat you with respect as long as you understand the club, its ethos and put your whole effort into it at matches without being a crank.

It might just be me, but I'd say that understanding the city and it's ethos, is more important than that of the club. Although the support often reflects the culture of the city, e.g. the flamboyancy of the City in the 60s was reflected in the Kop, which changed through the 70s then 80s to something darker and broodier as the City's culture changed. To be replaced by hope in the later 90's etc. etc.

Like any other place, respect the locals and their ways and be welcomed. Act a tit and get a kicking. Common sense, really.

[Welshred]

You're right Billy and I'd say on the whole the two are interchangeable as the club is based on the local support.

[Dave McCoy]

To play devils advocate though it doesn’t take much to co-opt that into something nefarious.  Almost all UK media I’ve consumed in the last two weeks is 100% focused on the US owners and American sports rules being “bad” which can then feed into that. 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It might just be me, but I'd say that understanding the city and it's ethos, is more important than that of the club. Although the support often reflects the culture of the city, e.g. the flamboyancy of the City in the 60s was reflected in the Kop, which changed through the 70s then 80s to something darker and broodier as the City's culture changed. To be replaced by hope in the later 90's etc. etc.

Like any other place, respect the locals and their ways and be welcomed. Act a tit and get a kicking. Common sense, really.

Funny because it is universally true.

[FlashGordon]

To play devils advocate though it doesn’t take much to co-opt that into something nefarious.  Almost all UK media I’ve consumed in the last two weeks is 100% focused on the US owners and American sports rules being “bad” which can then feed into that.

Fair enough, something to take on board for the future.

[Billy Elliot]

You're right Billy and I'd say on the whole the two are interchangeable as the club is based on the local support.

I think I might actually know you, sorry if that's sounds a bit stalkerish.

If you are who I think you are (now it's getting very stalkery), you'll know that most people I go the match with are OOT but they know the City inside out, better than me to be honest.

They sometimes get a saved seat in Dodds by the locals, and taken to the bar to get the local rates.

On the other hand, I've been on a OOT coach and heard snide remarks about Scousers, it's really beyond me why they support Liverpool if they're going to be taking the piss out of people living in the Council houses. It's those sort that need fucking off.

[FlashGordon]

I think I might actually know you, sorry if that's sounds a bit stalkerish.

If you are who I think you are (now it's getting very stalkery), you'll know that most people I go the match with are OOT but they know the City inside out, better than me to be honest.

They sometimes get a saved seat in Dodds by the locals, and taken to the bar to get the local rates.

On the other hand, I've been on a OOT coach and heard snide remarks about Scousers, it's really beyond me why they support Liverpool if they're going to be taking the piss out of people living in the Council houses. It's those sort that need fucking off.

This, 100%. I'm as proud of Liverpool and it's inhabitants as I am of my own hometown, which is a strange thing really, something that's always fascinated me.

[Red_Mist]

We are all Liverpool fans, from the local fan who lives at Anfield, to someone who pays thousands from another country to come and have a day at the club he loves.

You can begin to worry about the future of the club in terms of sustainable core support and lobby the club for some local tickets to be set aside, without that meaning what you’re suggesting it means. It’s what happened and was ‘a good thing’, not an act of racism or xenophobia. If you’re not going to invest ANY time in understanding the reasons behind something like that and instead just throw insults around because you’ve completely misunderstood, then I’m not sure you’re going to get anywhere.

Liverpool supporters have embraced the fact that we’re a global club like few other fanbases would have done. My mate still wears his ‘Supporters All Over The World’ scarf, which always gets admiring glances as it’s an absolute classic that I’d love to own myself. It’s been a source of pride that we’ve got supporters in every corner of the world and has resulted in loads of friendships forged and maintained that simply would never have happened without Liverpool FC’s global pull. Comments like yours above are a bit condescending to be honest.

[kakskümmend neli seitse shagging kõik jõulunädal]

We are all Liverpool fans, from the local fan who lives at Anfield, to someone who pays thousands from another country to come and have a day at the club he loves.

The whole tone of 'we are fighting for locals' is just an extension of that aggression against fans not in Liverpool. We are a global club and you should be fighting for all fans.

Either you clarify your stance against fans from abroad, kick out any members who engage in that type of rhetoric, including ban of the aggressive rhetoric like 'KICK OUT THE YANKS' (which is highly offensive to me being raised in America), or in my opinion the club should stay away from yourselves.

Offence is taken, not given. This is RAWK. It's not a recruiting ground for any fan group, it's not a partisan homebase for fanatics either and it's not a soapbox for grudges or excessive pontificating. Wind yer neck in.

You clearly have a deep rooted issue with SoS. Take it up with them directly. Stop derailing a thread on our forum with your frankly aggressive showboating. I've engaged with SoS enough personally to know that they'd welcome and encourage sensible debate regarding issues you may have with them but right now you just come across as the fella who doesn't like the pub and shouts from the outside about how shit it is and how badly they treat people who drink in it.

No, they don't speak for every fan. Neither does RAWK. And neither do you. So pack it in and take your fight with them to them cos you're really starting to irritate us now.

[Sarge]

Or there is that.

[Titi Camara]

If you want to be taken as a serious organisation then you can't come out with xenophobic (borderline racist) stance.....

Is it xenophobic? Many americans would identify with the term Yankee readily and hold it as a badge of honour (there's a fucking baseball team with the term in the name ffs), although I accept that may not be all americans and may be predominantly from those in the north/north east.

To me, it's simply being used as an identifier and is clearly a spill over from the previous regime as well, a term on a par with Brit or Aussie.

If you can prove to me it's xenophobic, I'll gladly listen to your case but otherwise it just seems like you want to be offended by something, in which case, bore off!

[Dave McCoy]

Is it xenophobic? Many americans would identify with the term Yankee readily and hold it as a badge of honour (there's a fucking baseball team with the term in the name ffs), although I accept that may not be all americans and may be predominantly from those in the north/north east.

To me, it's simply being used as an identifier and is clearly a spill over from the previous regime as well, a term on a par with Brit or Aussie.

If you can prove to me it's xenophobic, I'll gladly listen to your case but otherwise it just seems like you want to be offended by something, in which case, bore off!

You're saying many Americans identify with Yank and that "Yanks Out" is fine just because all the other Yanks should know that it doesn't actually apply to them?  Uhh....

What if I walked down the busiest street in London with an "Aussies Out" sign since I don't think the Murdochs should own anything in Britain, would that be kosher?

This is getting way off base and I personally don't have an issue with it as if you're going to own the teams and make money off it then you have to take the heat when you fuck up.  Just saying that to a casual observer it's not hard to make the inference.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You're saying many Americans identify with Yank and that "Yanks Out" is fine just because all the other Yanks should know that it doesn't actually apply to them?  Uhh....

What if I walked down the busiest street in London with an "Aussies Out" sign since I don't think the Murdochs should own anything in Britain, would that be kosher?

This is getting way off base and I personally don't have an issue with it as if you're going to own the teams and make money off it then you have to take the heat when you fuck up.  Just saying that to a casual observer it's not hard to make the inference.

You obviously do,you wrote a shit analogy and everything 

[Dave McCoy]

You obviously do,you wrote a shit analogy and everything 

I think the Murdochs are a cancer that have ruined multiple countries.  That's a terrible analogy?

[Titi Camara]

You're saying many Americans identify with Yank and that "Yanks Out" is fine just because all the other Yanks should know that it doesn't actually apply to them?  Uhh....

Didn't say anything was fine, I was questioning whether the term "yanks" is xenophobic. You think it is?

And fuck the Murdochs!

[Dave McCoy]

Didn't say anything was fine, I was questioning whether the term "yanks" is xenophobic. You think it is?

And fuck the Murdochs!

Xenophobia is a racism/hatred for any non-native group so any word that describes them could suffice.  So yes "yank" could be just as us American's have used many other words to do the same. Which is why in my post about playing devils advocate it's a slippery slope and to a neutral observer it's understandable for them to think so as they wouldn't have the context you have for this particular instance.

[kakskümmend neli seitse shagging kõik jõulunädal]

Simple research would provide the necessary context. Anyway, we're off topic and AttentionSeeker is off the scale.

[Dave McCoy]

Simple research would provide the necessary context. Anyway, we're off topic and AttentionSeeker is off the scale.

The club is happy to take the money from any fan in any country in the world whether they're well informed fans or not.  That is the context this is all in. 

[kakskümmend neli seitse shagging kõik jõulunädal]

The club is happy to take the money from any fan in any country in the world whether they're well informed fans or not.  That is the context this is all in. 

And we're back on topic, thanks

I personally don't have any further opinions than the ones I've already expressed before, here and elsewhere. The game is just about dead to me, this is just about moderation of the thread Dave, nothing personal to you

[daveonthespionkop1900]

You can begin to worry about the future of the club in terms of sustainable core support and lobby the club for some local tickets to be set aside, without that meaning what you’re suggesting it means. It’s what happened and was ‘a good thing’, not an act of racism or xenophobia. If you’re not going to invest ANY time in understanding the reasons behind something like that and instead just throw insults around because you’ve completely misunderstood, then I’m not sure you’re going to get anywhere.

Liverpool supporters have embraced the fact that we’re a global club like few other fanbases would have done. My mate still wears his ‘Supporters All Over The World’ scarf, which always gets admiring glances as it’s an absolute classic that I’d love to own myself. It’s been a source of pride that we’ve got supporters in every corner of the world and has resulted in loads of friendships forged and maintained that simply would never have happened without Liverpool FC’s global pull. Comments like yours above are a bit condescending to be honest.

global club is indeed a thing... its hard for people living in other areas of the North West who feel ostracised from the club as they are not deemed local. is it fair that someone from Wigan or Chester or Warrington feels less chance of going than someone from Sweden?

[FlashGordon]

I think the Murdochs are a cancer that have ruined multiple countries.  That's a terrible analogy?

Yes, because how the fuck would anyone in London know you were protesting against the Murdochs? You're just randomly walking down the street with a sign that says Aussies out.

That's a bit different to standing outside Anfield with a Yanks Out banner protesting against our American owners 

[Hark the Howard Angels Sing]

Yes, because how the fuck would anyone in London know you were protesting against the Murdochs? You're just randomly walking down the street with a sign that says Aussies out.

That's a bit different to standing outside Anfield with a Yanks Out banner protesting against our American owners 

Wasn't the 'Yanks out' banner specifically aimed at Hicks and Gillet and a form of shorthand identifier if the owners - there may have been a bit of a political jibe at Hick' connection to GWB but that's just speculation.

A banner now with 'Yanks out' rather than the easily accommodated FSG could be seen as xenophobic.

[Eeyore]

Wasn't the 'Yanks out' banner specifically aimed at Hicks and Gillet and a form of shorthand identifier if the owners - there may have been a bit of a political jibe at Hick' connection to GWB but that's just speculation.

A banner now with 'Yanks out' rather than the easily accommodated FSG could be seen as xenophobic.

Personally I think it is more about the American Sports model that FSG, the Glazers and Kroenke are trying to impose on European Football. The banners are often a play on words comparing Shanks and Yanks. Shanks wasn't a scouser or even English the difference was though that he respected the culture.

[Hij]

I really don't get what this Dave person doesn't understand. If he doesn't know who Jay is I can only presume he hasn't followed Liverpool very long. I really don't get, what Dave doesn't get. Jay's post made perfect sense, but probably would have sounded better through his mega phone.

Haha anyone around in 2010 would know Jay, as he was on tele constantly

They sometimes get a saved seat in Dodds by the locals, and taken to the bar to get the local rates.

Can't wait to be back in Dodds and the Church ffs. Really missed everything around going the game. Even the four-six hour drives and M62 nightmares

[redmark]

I honestly don't care but just thought it was an odd thing to say.  I know who Billy Hogan and Ian Ayre are because of decisions they've made for a club I support.   I have no idea who you are and could probably never know without much changing.  So how can that be the same thing being held to the same standard?

There's something very circular in your arguments here - that SoS don't represent you, that you don't know who they are - but if you made the slightest effort to engage with SoS (the official Liverpool Supporters Trust), it would be very easy to see 'who they are' and even to have your views heard and represented. I signed up in 2008, attended a meeting, heard Jay speak, amongst others (I think it was Jay, it was a long time ago), talked to a few other members (almost all OOTs, this being in London). Wasn't very difficult to engage and find out 'who they are', hardly "could probably never know without much changing".

[Jay_Mc]

Wasn't the 'Yanks out' banner specifically aimed at Hicks and Gillet and a form of shorthand identifier if the owners - there may have been a bit of a political jibe at Hick' connection to GWB but that's just speculation.

A banner now with 'Yanks out' rather than the easily accommodated FSG could be seen as xenophobic.

It was. There have been no SoS banners, or statements with Yanks in since. It was a campaign slogan, very focused, and one that legal opinion has said wouldn't be xenophobic, racist or even be seen as reasonably likely to cause offence.

And more practically, hasn't been a barrier to conversations we, and I, have had with Billy Hogan for example.

[Sarge]

Rawk Superstar that is what you are

[kakskümmend neli seitse shagging kõik jõulunädal]

It was. There have been no SoS banners, or statements with Yanks in since. It was a campaign slogan, very focused, and one that legal opinion has said wouldn't be xenophobic, racist or even be seen as reasonably likely to cause offence.

And more practically, hasn't been a barrier to conversations we, and I, have had with Billy Hogan for example.

Yup - as mentioned yesterday, offence is taken not given. The 'Yanks Out!' was unambiguously clear - it referred to two specific people of that type plus their underlings.....

[Sarge]

Yup - as mentioned yesterday, offence is taken not given. The 'Yanks Out!' was unambiguously clear - it referred to two specific people of that type plus their underlings.....

Yup it was 100% all about Hicks and Gillet no mre no less. That final year was by far the worse time to post on Rawk, it was toxic at times and fans where having a go at each other over those two. They where American and the yanks out motto came from that just that.

[Dave McCoy]

There's something very circular in your arguments here - that SoS don't represent you, that you don't know who they are - but if you made the slightest effort to engage with SoS (the official Liverpool Supporters Trust), it would be very easy to see 'who they are' and even to have your views heard and represented. I signed up in 2008, attended a meeting, heard Jay speak, amongst others (I think it was Jay, it was a long time ago), talked to a few other members (almost all OOTs, this being in London). Wasn't very difficult to engage and find out 'who they are', hardly "could probably never know without much changing".

My recent responses I specifically said I was playing devils advocate to show how it can be a fine line.  Nothing other than that.