Author Topic: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤  (Read 249219 times)

Online paulrazor

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3960 on: Today at 08:08:02 am »

The mobility issue has been there from the first game at Newcastle in August though. Read the match comments from the game, the concerns were there.

We have looked extremely vulnerable all season long defensively, and that's despite having Virgil (our 2nd best player after Mac) and Quansah at CB. The midfield is too easily bypassed, and against 10 man Wolves again they had a glorious chance after getting in behind the midfield only for Virgil to block a goal bound shot and prevent it being 11 league games without a clean sheet.

Go to 1:25 here:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz</a>

It's too easy, without that defensive screen in midfield teams get in behind us. We aren't in Dublin this Wednesday at Atalanta's runners had a field day against us.


100%
Whole team was poor vs Atalanta

Newcastle away was not the best game to show case Endo given we were down to 10 early in the game

He definitely gets done for pace big time in that Wolves clip, like hes running in water. Pace isnt a strong point for him thats for sure

With Slot playing a 4231 it might take a bit of responsibilty off him

I think a DM is the most important part of this window
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Offline jepovic

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3961 on: Today at 08:26:56 am »
Both are excellent points, this was posted in new manager thread and it's an excellent watch, a fair view on what we could improve. There is also this reinvention of Fabinho having exceptional recovery pace, I don't agree, he was one of the best front foot defenders with his telescopic octopus legs but if you got past him his tracking was average at best. It's a team game and collectively we don't defend well, and we expose our 6 massively.

Here's the video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26gyYaZ-Two

They discuss the "6" a lot and a great point used is Arsenal actually played Jorginho for the majority of their big games at 6, not Rice and me nan can run faster than Jorginho, which points to this mythical speedster at 6 not being the big fix to all our problems.

As you say jepovic we don't counter press well anymore and a lot of this is down to our shape and how we play so open and fluid so when we lose the ball we have wide open spaces for the opponent to attack into, it's no coincidence we are one of the highest for dribbled past teams in the league, stopping dribblers is about swarming the player quickly but we get exposed 1 v 1 in an open pitch a lot, and thats one of the hardest defensive jobs in football.
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3962 on: Today at 08:49:16 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

Paolo Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

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Offline Draex

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3963 on: Today at 08:52:23 am »
Paolo Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

Wan Bissaka -  ;D

It's so true though, Van Dijk rarely if ever slide tackles, there was a period where his aura scared off attackers :D

There is also the point of do your defending by keeping the ball, we play a bit too hectic at times leading to counters and big open spaces to defend. You expend more energy off the ball than on it.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:54:20 am by Draex »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3964 on: Today at 09:30:34 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

We lump players together but there are actually 2 separate skillsets in play with DMs. One is the deep lying playmaker stuff, one is the 'defensive screen/ destroyer' type stuff. It's rare that a player can be both. But if they're the latter, they're going to need to be athletic. Our issue is we kinda have neither. Fabinho to some extent used to do both for us.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:42:25 am by Knight »

Offline Eeyore

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3965 on: Today at 09:44:09 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

In that case was it just a case of Henderson and Fabinho losing their anticipation?

It was just a myth that they declined when their legs went?

If you want to press the opposition or use your deep midfield players in your build up then at times they are going to end up ahead of the ball. Gone are the days of your 6 or 6s just sitting in and screening the centre backs for 90 minutes. That is when you need recovery pace.

Reading the game well sensing danger and being in the right place are all things you need as a 6. Inevitably the though at some stage as a unit you are going to make mistakes. That is when recovery pace becomes essential either to get back in or just to be able to make a tactical foul.

That brings us to Endo. The thing is he doesn't really have many of the tools to be a single 6. He doesn't sense danger, far too often he let's runners go. He ends up ahead of the ball far too often. He ends up out of position and can't get back in. The number of times we get cut open and you see one of our 8s or even a forward sprinting back past him is crazy.

He just isn't a natural single 6 for me and doesn't have the skill set. He does have his qualities he is a decent passer, if you get him turned and facing the opposition goal, some of his vertical pressing is very good. His best asset though is backing up the press get him close to players and he is very brave and gets in players faces and is a useful ball winner. That only works though if we stay in shape and he only has small spaces to cover. He struggles at the start of games when the tempo is really high and gets passed around and closed down in possession far too easily.

The biggest issue though is that he basically has to play in a double pivot. His lack of pace means we end up with Macca having to sit in alongside him. Even then he isn't the best against a high press so Trent ends up inverting and we basically end up with three 6s at times.

It isn't his fault he gives everything and is a useful squad player. For me though if we genuinely want to win the big trophies then he is the easiest player to replace. Stick Rice or Rodri into our team and for me we win the League and would be looking forward to tomorrow night in Dublin. I said from the start he should be doing the Milner role. Coming on with 20 minutes to go as the closer and being the senior pro in the domestic cup games.

Years ago the 6 was an afterthought. It was the domain of an experienced 8 who had lost a yard of pace or even a converted centre back.

The game has changed now teams want to play out from the back. That requires a 6 who is very press resistant and comfortable with his back to goal or on the half turn. Teams now target the transitions so you either need mobility or have a covering player the way City do with the likes of Walker, Stones or Akanji that protects the 6. The major change though is that the 6 is no longer a dumping ground for an aging 8 or a spare centre back. It is a fully fledged key position that requires a specialist. For me Endo always looked like a 8 trying to do a 6 tribute act.

This summer we need to grasp the nettle and go big on a specialist 6. I think the impact Fabinho had on the team in his pomp shows that.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:47:12 am by Eeyore »
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3966 on: Today at 11:04:56 am »
Whole team was poor vs Atalanta

Newcastle away was not the best game to show case Endo given we were down to 10 early in the game

He definitely gets done for pace big time in that Wolves clip, like hes running in water. Pace isnt a strong point for him thats for sure

With Slot playing a 4231 it might take a bit of responsibilty off him

I think a DM is the most important part of this window
The DM was exposed vs Atalanta as Koopmeiners had the run of that central attacking area of the field. We were overrun to the extent some of our fans suggested (half jokingly) were they on something, a suggestion that was also directed at us by other fans the last time we were a running/pressing machine two years ago. And when the DM is exposed, the rest of the team doesn't function. Its the knock on effect, and the DM is such a pivotal role in the heart of the action that if it doesnt work nothing works. Both full backs (Tsimikas and Gomez) were done too, Tsimikas asleep when dispossessed upfield, and Gomez failing to track the attacker who easily made it 2, so it wasn't just the DM that night of course.

Jurgen imo made his worst team selection in his time at the club less than 72 hours after Atalanta by starting him vs Palace. Even when fresh and fully rested he will get done for pace, as the clip showed vs Wolves, but when goosed after such a physically draining game less than 3 days prior he will get done even more so. Palace dominated him in the first half and they could have been more than 1 goal ahead. Jurgen then took him off at half time with Dom coming on and with the increase in tempo and running power we tried to turn around the deficit in the second half, but it was too much to go to the well yet again.

Against Newcastle we were pinned for long spells inside our own half. Gakpo wasn't pressing from the front and allowed their defenders to walk up to and past halfway with no pressure on the ball. That was also the game that we got concerned by the lack of mobility of the DM. The suggestions on here were tiredness having just signed, which I thought too, but the next game we realised that he just wasn't that quick. The lack of running power and athleticism in the team was hurting us at Newcastle, and the game changed with Nunez and Harvey on for Gakpo and Endo, the tempo ramped up and we started to look dangerous again.

With the decline in athleticism in midfield we haven't look like a Klopp team in two years. Fainho's decline was shocking, legs gone completely. Going behind 23 times this season we are just too slow out of the blocks that teams do us. And away from home especially the midfield has to be athletic and strong, tracking runners, snuffing out danger at source, stuff we don't do. We are a soft touch and give away easy chances against teams who dont have to do a great deal (six goals againat a toothless United at OT in 2 games). In the league we have 1 away win against the top 10. From an attacking standpoint we don't win the ball back quick enough (nor as high up the field) in midfield anymore that puts forwards away in space with an easier chance to score. Nunez I think has suffered most in this decline from where we were two years ago as he is getting slower ball so opposition defences are given time to get set. The 8s are having to play deeper with a less mobile 6, so that midfield isn't at full throttle.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3967 on: Today at 11:21:56 am »
In that case was it just a case of Henderson and Fabinho losing their anticipation?

It was just a myth that they declined when their legs went?

If you want to press the opposition or use your deep midfield players in your build up then at times they are going to end up ahead of the ball. Gone are the days of your 6 or 6s just sitting in and screening the centre backs for 90 minutes. That is when you need recovery pace.

Reading the game well sensing danger and being in the right place are all things you need as a 6. Inevitably the though at some stage as a unit you are going to make mistakes. That is when recovery pace becomes essential either to get back in or just to be able to make a tactical foul.

That brings us to Endo. The thing is he doesn't really have many of the tools to be a single 6. He doesn't sense danger, far too often he let's runners go. He ends up ahead of the ball far too often. He ends up out of position and can't get back in. The number of times we get cut open and you see one of our 8s or even a forward sprinting back past him is crazy.

He just isn't a natural single 6 for me and doesn't have the skill set. He does have his qualities he is a decent passer, if you get him turned and facing the opposition goal, some of his vertical pressing is very good. His best asset though is backing up the press get him close to players and he is very brave and gets in players faces and is a useful ball winner. That only works though if we stay in shape and he only has small spaces to cover. He struggles at the start of games when the tempo is really high and gets passed around and closed down in possession far too easily.

The biggest issue though is that he basically has to play in a double pivot. His lack of pace means we end up with Macca having to sit in alongside him. Even then he isn't the best against a high press so Trent ends up inverting and we basically end up with three 6s at times.

It isn't his fault he gives everything and is a useful squad player. For me though if we genuinely want to win the big trophies then he is the easiest player to replace. Stick Rice or Rodri into our team and for me we win the League and would be looking forward to tomorrow night in Dublin. I said from the start he should be doing the Milner role. Coming on with 20 minutes to go as the closer and being the senior pro in the domestic cup games.

Years ago the 6 was an afterthought. It was the domain of an experienced 8 who had lost a yard of pace or even a converted centre back.

The game has changed now teams want to play out from the back. That requires a 6 who is very press resistant and comfortable with his back to goal or on the half turn. Teams now target the transitions so you either need mobility or have a covering player the way City do with the likes of Walker, Stones or Akanji that protects the 6. The major change though is that the 6 is no longer a dumping ground for an aging 8 or a spare centre back. It is a fully fledged key position that requires a specialist. For me Endo always looked like a 8 trying to do a 6 tribute act.

This summer we need to grasp the nettle and go big on a specialist 6. I think the impact Fabinho had on the team in his pomp shows that.

While I agree with the gist of your post, he doesnt "let" the runners go, he's just physically incapable of keeping up. He has picked up quite a few bookings in dragging back players who bypassed him. At West Ham two weeks ago he was bypassed three times, one of which led to Ali making a save, and another for which he got a booking for holding back their midfielder.

The effort is there, the mentality is good, he's a great character in the dressing room. Unfortunately he doesnt have the mobility.

The modern game especially (so the last two decades), the tempo is quicker and quicker. You just cannot get away with a lack of athleticism at this level. Seeing Fabinho get bypassed so easily in 22-23 was utterly shocking. The last game of the season at Southampton with no resistence against their runners from midfield confirmed we had to let him go.

United, who are otherwise a mess, looked decent when Casemiro arrived as he brought them stability, just as the likes of Makelele and Kante did to whatever teams they played for. But when his legs started to go the protection he gave them went, and now they look a shambles.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3968 on: Today at 11:33:37 am »
good back-up number 6, he should not be a started for a team aspiring to win titles

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3969 on: Today at 11:48:16 am »

thats a good post and he definitely had a few shoddy performances
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