Author Topic: General Manchester City thread  (Read 3433329 times)

Offline PhiLFC#1

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5440 on: July 20, 2013, 02:34:43 pm »
How do you know all the new signings are on 75k anyway, and all the other player wages. I hardly know any Liverpool player wages

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5441 on: July 20, 2013, 02:35:15 pm »
I think Negredo, Navas and Joveyic are all quality signings for City and were kidding ourselves if you think any of these 3 wouldn't improve us. Coupled that with the fact they've got a manager that RAWK loved/love they'll do well
I'm telling you, Bowie died and it's all gone to fuck.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5442 on: July 20, 2013, 02:46:24 pm »
At this point I have respect for Arsenal in a sense, and Tottenham, even if their fans hate us and they are Liverpool's main rivals. Oh, and Manchester United.

Man city and Chelsea are too fake too look at, I don't know why. I can't associate them with being the face of football.

Real Madrid have atleast great deal of history.
Every club, somewhere in their history, has had a sugar-daddy or other financial leg-up. If you're looking at Arsenal, it was less than 20 years ago that Danny Fiszman pumped in £50m and they started buying players like Bergkamp, Vieira, Platt, Overmars, Petit, etc. Top players cost £3m in those days so that was effectively worth around £500m today in equivalent value. That set them up for a sustained run of success they are, to a much lesser degree, still enjoying.

Spurs were the first club to set up a holding company and float on the Stock Market, which in many ways was the start of the modern commercialisation of football. They had a rights issue some years ago to fund a large spending spree.

United were literally on the verge of bankruptcy in 1931 when local businessman John Gibson put in tens of thousands of pounds that saved them. He also rebuilt the bombed Old Trafford after the war. Liverpool & Everton were helped by the Moores family fortune. The old G14, of which your club was a member, did its best to ensure that their members got a bigger slice of the cake from FIFA and threatened a European Super League if they didn't get it.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5443 on: July 20, 2013, 02:58:36 pm »
I fucking love amortisation. The word adds so much to a debate.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5444 on: July 20, 2013, 03:05:54 pm »
I fucking love amortisation. The word adds so much to a debate.
I know. What with amortisation, impairment, goodwill and Extraordinary Items, who says accountancy is boring.

Offline zeven

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5445 on: July 20, 2013, 03:11:08 pm »
How do you know all the new signings are on 75k anyway, and all the other player wages. I hardly know any Liverpool player wages
Its been reported the same figures in all media outlets and this is what Sorano has been hinted at.  The barca boy had specific wage structure with bonuses at Barca and everything looks at they try to implement the exact same structure here, with "low" base wage and relative huge bonuses if city are to win PL or CL.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5446 on: July 20, 2013, 03:41:41 pm »
I  havent seen negredo play much, but im pretty sure hes not three times worse than Hulk,Falcao,Cavani  his stats shows he should go for much much more in todays crazy market.   what i try to defend is simply Negredo is a better signing money wise than Cavani. which you guys dont agree with.
The annoying thing about your defense of City is that you keep saying, "We're being smarter with our signings than PSG and Monaco!" Well, yeah. Their signings are insane. You guys have smart people running your club and are already established, of course you're going to make better value signings. The players you've got will help you a lot; no one denies that. We're just not impressed that by spending 90 million in transfer fees you were able to improve your team and lower the wage bill. It's very different from saying you're doing bad business.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 03:47:14 pm by ElstonGunn »

Offline PhiLFC#1

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5447 on: July 20, 2013, 04:38:57 pm »
The players you've got will help you a lot; no one denies that. We're just not impressed that by spending 90 million in transfer fees you were able to improve your team and lower the wage bill. It's very different from saying you're doing bad business.

Yup, pretty much my thoughts

Offline zeven

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5448 on: July 20, 2013, 04:40:18 pm »
The annoying thing about your defense of City is that you keep saying, "We're being smarter with our signings than PSG and Monaco!" Well, yeah. Their signings are insane. You guys have smart people running your club and are already established, of course you're going to make better value signings. The players you've got will help you a lot; no one denies that. We're just not impressed that by spending 90 million in transfer fees you were able to improve your team and lower the wage bill. It's very different from saying you're doing bad business.
I agree, but to upgrade a squad that come second last season is not easy im afraid.

Offline Po The Panda

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5449 on: July 20, 2013, 04:43:07 pm »
Yep I don't buy the idea of things being a long term plan , if Pellagrini fails and these signings bomb they'll be shipped out sharpish. New manager comes in and another 100-200 million is spent. 

Theirs nothing clever or anything different to PSG or Monaco Chelsea e.t.c going on here. 

The plan is If it all goes pear shaped drop a whole load of cash down and start over.

Whatever I'm not fussed as along as they stop Utd.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5450 on: July 20, 2013, 04:46:01 pm »
Whatever I'm not fussed as along as they stop Utd.

They've also got Moyes helping with that particular battle.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5451 on: July 20, 2013, 05:07:38 pm »
Yep I don't buy the idea of things being a long term plan , if Pellagrini fails and these signings bomb they'll be shipped out sharpish. New manager comes in and another 100-200 million is spent. 
Does any club have a long-term plan? United had to keep rebuilding. Players get old and go off the boil or want to move to other clubs so they get replaced. If you've got a high-value squad then replacing players is relatively easy as you sell for a decent amount plus you tend to have a higner income to start with.

When ADUG came in, we were on the verge of administration, had relatively few saleable assets so we needed significant investment. Now we've got that, our squad value is higher and this current financial year should see our income come in around the £280-300m range (maybe more depending on the CL), with a wage/income ratio under 70%.

Gross spend becomes largely irrelevant at that point as the real impact is on the bottom line, via amortisation, wages and any profit/loss on sale. If we bought 4 players at a total of £100m on five year contracts and ship them out after two years, replacing them with £100m of new players on the same wages, then the actual ongoing cost is zero, plus or minus any profit/loss on sale.

Offline hulksagoodboy

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5452 on: July 20, 2013, 05:42:39 pm »
The whole account manager 2013 garbage is pretty boring.

Your club is trying to buy a league title/European success, it's that simple really.

Paint the picture in whatever shade you like, still has the same shitty feel to it.

Winning a league title by bullying everyone out of competition with excessive fees and wages can't really make the on field success feel all that worthwhile, can it?

And before one of you come up with the "Arsenal this, You's lot that." justification, there was success in place at both club prior to either spending big bucks (in perspective to the time.), you picked up your bit of success AFTER the money rolled in, it's totally different.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5453 on: July 20, 2013, 07:11:15 pm »
And before one of you come up with the "Arsenal this, You's lot that." justification, there was success in place at both club prior to either spending big bucks (in perspective to the time.), you picked up your bit of success AFTER the money rolled in, it's totally different.

Did Man City only get into the top flight due to corruption too? Our success was built from that platform and due to Henry Norris, we became a big team. We also got very very lucky in the modern age.

Arsenal and Man U have greatly benefited from being at the top at exactly the right time. We got into the CL cartel and avoided implosion, that has given us umpteen advantages over every non CL team. Spurs have made a valiant effort to break in but we still hold too many cards over them. My fear for Liverpool is that Spurs and you will be outside looking in, do all the right things... but the cartel will just feed Arsenal/Chelsea/Man U/Man City advantages that will multiply each year unless one club implodes. With proper management, each year the gap between CL clubs and non CL clubs grows and teams trying to break in slowly get demoralized and picked apart by... CL teams.

Man City and Chelsea have decided not to patiently kneel outside the window in the hope that Man U or Arsenal suffer as Liverpool did but break into the cartel. Sad that it was probably necessary but I don't begrudge them. I'm proud of my club's self sufficiency and not being owned by one man but I'm aware I speak as a fan of a club who has been handed inbuilt advantages over Spurs and, nowadays, Liverpool.

Offline HighSix

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5454 on: July 20, 2013, 07:15:23 pm »
^If Wengers gets you a few signing as good as that post you will be challenging!

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5455 on: July 20, 2013, 07:17:19 pm »
The whole account manager 2013 garbage is pretty boring.

Your club is trying to buy a league title/European success, it's that simple really.

Paint the picture in whatever shade you like, still has the same shitty feel to it.

Winning a league title by bullying everyone out of competition with excessive fees and wages can't really make the on field success feel all that worthwhile, can it?

And before one of you come up with the "Arsenal this, You's lot that." justification, there was success in place at both club prior to either spending big bucks (in perspective to the time.), you picked up your bit of success AFTER the money rolled in, it's totally different.
Well it can feel worthwhile as it happens.

Winning things by bullying others out of competition was what you, United & Arsenal used to do when you had the Top 4 sewn up between you and were raking it in from the CL and outspending everyone else. When you were part of the G14 and bullying UEFA/FIFA into getting more and more money. When you were bullying smaller clubs by changing the rules so that the home club kept all gate receipts.

If you were so concerned about "fairness" why not share that money? Then we could go back to the days when a Shankly, Busby or Mercer could make the difference. But you didn't because you kept that money to buy more success. So don't give me the sob story about deserving it because "there was success in place". You bought it because you had more money than anyone else, regardless of where it came from. It came from the TV companies, advertisers, sponsors etc. And you pissed a lot of it away it must be said.

Also it's not like we were founded in 2008. We were a successful club in the late 1960's and 1970's and had been a successful club over 100 years ago. Arsenal were starting to drift along in mid table going nowhere (like we were in 2007) when Fiszman kick-started them financially. You've certainly had success but that entitles you to nothing. You're only as good as your last season. What you did 20 or 30 years ago has no bearing on what you're likely to do next season. I hope you do well personally but you need to face some facts. Your owners have put a fair amount of money in but it's not as much as our owners have. But I suspect they would if they could if they they thought you could get you back to the top table again. And if they could sell you at a profit, they would as well.

Like us in the 1970's, you fucked it up as well via instability and poor ownership but if someone came along and pumped money into you, making you successful again, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. No way another Ipswich or Forest will win the league again, unless they get huge investment. But that's not our fault, that's the nature of the game these days, which clubs like yourselves, Arsenal, Spurs & United helped to create.

Believe me, you'd justify it if it was you. As I said a little while ago, we're all hypocrites in some way or another.


« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:59:58 pm by ManchesterBlue »

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5456 on: July 20, 2013, 07:28:22 pm »
City are a frightening team on paper right now.
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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5457 on: July 20, 2013, 07:34:55 pm »
City are a frightening team on paper right now.

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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5458 on: July 20, 2013, 07:36:02 pm »
City are a frightening team on paper right now.
As the old joke goes, unfortunately the game is played on grass! I thought we had a frightening team last season, far better on paper than United.

This season we've a new manager and new way of playing to learn, a fair few new players to fit in, one key player gone and a strong looking Chelsea team under Mourinho to compete with, as well as the same United team that won the title last season (which may be strengthened further).

Offline Po The Panda

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5459 on: July 20, 2013, 07:39:45 pm »
City are a frightening team on paper right now.
Really? I'd say Bayern Munich are frightening. City don't come close.

Offline EstonianRed

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5460 on: July 20, 2013, 09:23:50 pm »
I just cant get myself to hating City, I just cant.. Maybe because its their Utd biggest rivals or I dont know. I sure hate Chelsea like ALOT. But out of the Spurs, Arsenal,City,Utd,Chelsea to win the league, I'd go with City every minute.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5461 on: July 20, 2013, 11:14:31 pm »
I just cant get myself to hating City, I just cant.. Maybe because its their Utd biggest rivals or I dont know. I sure hate Chelsea like ALOT. But out of the Spurs, Arsenal,City,Utd,Chelsea to win the league, I'd go with City every minute.

Agree, it's strange really, them being Mancs, using oil money and making it 10x harder to get back in the CL I should hate them, but I root for them out of any of the other top teams.
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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5462 on: July 21, 2013, 12:02:50 am »
Did you play the self irony card or what?   i become a city fan when city was on verge to win their first title,  i like yaya silva and aguero so much and they played the best football.
:rollseyes
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5463 on: July 21, 2013, 12:33:01 am »
Agree, it's strange really, them being Mancs, using oil money and making it 10x harder to get back in the CL I should hate them, but I root for them out of any of the other top teams.
I don't get this "hating" other clubs. Well apart from United of course.

Perhaps it's because I go to a fair few away games and mix with opposition fans in pubs and outside the ground. I learn a lot from them and see their clubs through their eyes rather than my own or the media's prejudices. One example is Stoke, which I used to hate going to in the bad old days.

They are (or were) an easy club to "hate", with Pulis and their somewhat industrial style of football. But talking to fans at The Britannia in their first PL season I realised they were just glad to be there and would put up with somewaht turgid football to ensure their survival. and even after a few seasons, many would say that they'd rather have PL safety under Pulis than risk it with more expansive football under someone else. Plus they were incredibly sporting after the FA Cup Final two years ago and that made a huge impression on those of us who were there. It's the fans who make the clubs and while there are some dick-heads at every club, the vast majority are passionate fans who just happen to support a club that wears different colours.

Offline elpistolero7

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5464 on: July 21, 2013, 01:07:41 am »
Really? I'd say Bayern Munich are frightening. City don't come close.

This time last year, my mates and I were having a discussion. Best young attacking midfielders in the world. Our list was Wilshere, Kroos, Alcantara, Gotze.

3 of them are now at Bayern. Its absolutely frightening that someone with the ability of Kroos may not be a definite starter for them. Ditto Shaqiri. Most mental part is that the likes of Neuer, Badstuber, Alaba, Kirchoff, Martinez, Kroos, Alcantara, Gotze , Shaqiri are extremely young.

They spend money too. 50 million this summer for Gotze and thiago. Liverpool bought Carroll and Downing for similar money, City buy Lescott and Santa Cruz. There's the difference really.
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5465 on: July 21, 2013, 03:23:54 am »
^Football doesn't work like that though. The most difficult part of being a successful team is mental fatigue. No matter how young are the players, at some point, players cannot push themselves more.

People used to say the same about Barca. Pique, Busquets, Pedro, Messi, Iniesta, Fabregas etc. are not old either. It's just they have won everything. Multiple times. So the young age of Bayern players doesn't guarantee anything.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5466 on: July 21, 2013, 04:07:10 am »
I just cant get myself to hating City, I just cant.. Maybe because its their Utd biggest rivals or I dont know. I sure hate Chelsea like ALOT. But out of the Spurs, Arsenal,City,Utd,Chelsea to win the league, I'd go with City every minute.
While I would say I don't "hate" other teams, I do dislike Utd, Chelsea and Spurs (specially these last 2. While I understand the difference of opinions between Liverpool and Utd, I just don't get the absolute hate Chelsea and Spurs fans have for us, almost at venomous levels). Arsenal are a bit arrogant but they're alright, as are City.

So yeah, if we can't win the league, I'd rather them.

Offline EstonianRed

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5467 on: July 21, 2013, 09:10:50 am »
While I would say I don't "hate" other teams, I do dislike Utd, Chelsea and Spurs (specially these last 2. While I understand the difference of opinions between Liverpool and Utd, I just don't get the absolute hate Chelsea and Spurs fans have for us, almost at venomous levels). Arsenal are a bit arrogant but they're alright, as are City.

So yeah, if we can't win the league, I'd rather them.

Yes, I agree - hate is a strong word, maybe dislike is better. But totally agree with this part.

So lets put it in this way - I cant get myself to dislike City

Offline lionel_messias

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Manchester City
« Reply #5468 on: July 21, 2013, 09:47:32 am »
Negredo is a brilliant signing. For just on £17 million, he's even better. I just hope you don't sell Dzeko to Spurs. I'm convinced he'd score an absolute bucketful of goals for them if he went there and got played as the main striker. Wouldn't be a problem for you, but I think it would put a serious dent in our ambitions for next season. They'll probably sign Soldado for about £25 million on deadline day and it will be classed by Jim White as the greatest piece of business ever, as he drenches Kirsty Gallagher's tits in his cum champagne cocktail. And I hope he's shit for them.

That Kirsty Gallagher scenario has been playing out in your mind before, no?
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Manchester City
« Reply #5469 on: July 21, 2013, 09:53:28 am »
^Football doesn't work like that though. The most difficult part of being a successful team is mental fatigue. No matter how young are the players, at some point, players cannot push themselves more.

People used to say the same about Barca. Pique, Busquets, Pedro, Messi, Iniesta, Fabregas etc. are not old either. It's just they have won everything. Multiple times. So the young age of Bayern players doesn't guarantee anything.

I'm not sure what bias planet you are on if you don't think Bayern are NOT set for a period of domination. They have a galaxy of strong, technical players, with probably more attacking flair and strengh in depth than anyone. They destroyed Barca last season and they will probably do it again if given the chance and we haven't mentioned their manager and the addition of Gotze.
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Offline zeven

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5470 on: July 21, 2013, 11:35:25 am »
:rollseyes
hehe exactly that kind of reaction i hoped to get from that post :) 

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5471 on: July 21, 2013, 01:13:25 pm »
Does any club have a long-term plan? United had to keep rebuilding. Players get old and go off the boil or want to move to other clubs so they get replaced. If you've got a high-value squad then replacing players is relatively easy as you sell for a decent amount plus you tend to have a higner income to start with.

When ADUG came in, we were on the verge of administration, had relatively few saleable assets so we needed significant investment. Now we've got that, our squad value is higher and this current financial year should see our income come in around the £280-300m range (maybe more depending on the CL), with a wage/income ratio under 70%.

Gross spend becomes largely irrelevant at that point as the real impact is on the bottom line, via amortisation, wages and any profit/loss on sale. If we bought 4 players at a total of £100m on five year contracts and ship them out after two years, replacing them with £100m of new players on the same wages, then the actual ongoing cost is zero, plus or minus any profit/loss on sale.

Ah now, if you get your wage turnover ratio down to 70% (Which will be pretty impressive) you'll still be in the same position that we are in, that once you pay wages and expenses, and sundry other bits and bobs, there's no cash left over to fund transfer signings. that means that ADUG are still going to have to be putting their hand in their pocket to pay for the net transfer spending. From the point of view of FFP, even if you get wages down to 70%, your huge amortization charge will push you into a large loss, unless you sell a lot of players for large profits on their book value.

The problem with man city's wage bill in 2011-12 (the last year figures were available) was that you were paying £8-10 million a year (which is far too much for a club like city) to too many players. Tevez and toure were at the top of the list, along with aguero and silva, who deserved those wages, and dzeko, ballotelli, Nasri and Adebayor, who probably didn't. The key for city to get their finances in control is to get rid of the players they didn't use, (adebayor, bridge, RSC, maicon) and then replace all bar the very best with quality players, on about £80k, saving Four or five million a year on wages at a time.

So far Tevez, ballotelli and adebayor are gone from that list. Arguably city should have moved on Toure, nasri and dzeko as well. Toure renewed his contract for another four years, If city were serious about breaking even they would have sold him and Nasri to one of the sugar daddy clubs in france. I didn't see too much in toure's performances to suggest that he's going to be a £10 million a year player for the next four years did you?

Fernandinho, would be a suitable replacement for toure, navas for Nasri, jovetic for ballotelli and soldado for tevez. As you suggest, all of these are on much lower wages. All you'd have to do then is sign a cheaper replacement on lower wages than dzeko, and you'd be well on the way to eventual financial sanity. One thing about this summers signings. Jovetic is a very good young player who could become top class, but the other three will all be 28 by november and they are what they are. City have spent a lot of money on proven second tier performers These are players who have shone largely in midtable in the spanish league, and in the Ukraine. 

Also I don't think you can really compare arsenal's injection of some cash when Fitzman took over, and City. That money was a lump sum  to get them going, which wasn't really out of line with what others were spending at the time. Bergkamp's other option when leaving Inter Milan was Aston villa. Within two years of Arsene Wenger taking over, they were making huge profits in the transfer market. They Sold Anelka for £22 million, and overmars and Petit for a combined £35 million to barcelona. They made £15 million profit on Henry, and £25 million on viera when they were finished with them. After the injection of cash, they very quickly became a profitable club, to the point where they could raise the money to build their stadium.

Five years on, City are still getting £100 million a year from their owners, either through direct funding, or suspiciously huge sponsorship deals with companies from the gulf that are falling over themselves to throw money at city. The Scale and duration of the ADUG spending spree is astonishing. I mean sergio Aguero plays for man city. Sergio bloody Aguero. And it's so bloody relentless. The size of city's spending is such that they've essentially bought a CL place. Man utd have a permanent one because of their size, Chelsea Spend so much that they will always have one. 2009-10 was the last time that three non-sugar daddy clubs made the CL. Spurs pipped you on pretty much the last day of the season, but you responded by going out and spending another £120 million on players. Even being really successful by their own standards wasn't going to be enough to keep spurs in the top four.

Ultimately what's done is done, and city have spent all that money, and won the title and the FA cup, and been twice runners up in the league, and the FA cup. You've established yourself as a big club around the world. It's the same with chelsea. Both clubs now sit happily in the top ten of the Deloitte footballing rich list. The next step is for city to get their finances under control, and run themselves like an efficient top club.

The argument that the premiership needs sugar daddies to provide competition at the top is a poor one. Man utd are the biggest club, but they spend money like a much smaller one, and missed out by a point to chelsea, and goal difference to city from winning 7 straight championships. It obviously hasn't provided enough competition. The major impact of Chelsea's arrival was to end arsenal's dominance. They didn't add competition, they just changed the name of the team that fought with man utd. now city have come and wiped mud in chelsea's eye and taken up the challenge of fighting man utd. now Jose is back. 

The point is that Chelsea and Man City are now established as two big clubs with global standing. All that Roman and ADUG have to really do now is build bigger stadia, and let the clubs stand on their own two feet. If chelsea had a stadium like Arsenal's they'd already be turning over nearly £300 million and rolling in profit.  That sum would put them very close to Man Utd's figure. A bigger stadium wouldn't be quite as beneficial for city, but You'd still have a very healthy turnover, which would enable you to afford one of the best squads in europe. 

With Spurs moving to a 56k stadium in 2016, and us hopefully expanding anfield in a similar timeframe, you would be looking at six premiership clubs in any list of europe's top 10 richest clubs, and that's with only four CL places.  That would be enough to create a very strong, competitive league. Indeed the new tv contract is likely to push Everton, newcastle and villa into the top 20 richest european clubs.

There's no real justification for allowing sugar daddies. If you limit clubs to spending what they earn,  Over the next couple of years you would have six big clubs in england, capable of gradually affording to mount a title challenge. There will be a host of strong middle ranking clubs chasing after them and trying to make that step up, like Everton, Villa and Newcastle. Then you will have a number of very strong regional clubs, like Norwich, swansea, west brom and southampton (and sunderland if they were to ever get their act together). Already you are seeing these midtable premiership clubs signing promising players from europe, for substantial sums of money, out of profits. Swansea have paid £12 million for the top scorer in the dutch league. Norwich have signed Van Wolfswinkel, Fer and Redmond. Southampton paid £12 million for wanyama.  This isn't like Middlesbrough under gibson, or fulham under Tigana. These clubs can actually afford to sign these players.

It will be interesting to see how city do this season under pellegrini, but it would be a lot more interesting if they had taken the necessary steps to end their continal reliance on their sugar daddy. We've seen that if you spend enough money, you can win the league, now what are you going to do next?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 01:15:38 pm by RedHopper »

Offline MagicHat

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5472 on: July 21, 2013, 01:33:12 pm »
There is a justification for sugar daddies: if you want to see clubs break into the CL cartel by any means other then Liverpool style implosion. When, have Ferguson and have had a decade of being in the cartel then yes, Man U don't need to spend that big. Fizman's money can be seen as doing what City and Man U have done but with Arsenal getting into the cartel before the doors closed

If we don't have sugar daddies what we will get is four top clubs and the rest. Like now only worse. Spurs and Liverpool might spend and challenge for the 4th spot for a time but unless a CL club implodes, they will keep seeing their best players and their best managers being taken from them until it causes the club to slide down.  Some clubs, like Swansea and Southampton (who I thought had a sugar daddy till he died) may even get up to that level of brief CL challenges while the TV money is so large but unless, say Arsenal, implode during their brief challenges, they will sink back down to midtable.

Whether, once your safely established in the cartel, you need the sugar daddy after, say, 5 years is another matter.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5473 on: July 21, 2013, 03:34:32 pm »
There is a justification for sugar daddies: if you want to see clubs break into the CL cartel by any means other then Liverpool style implosion. When, have Ferguson and have had a decade of being in the cartel then yes, Man U don't need to spend that big. Fizman's money can be seen as doing what City and Man U have done but with Arsenal getting into the cartel before the doors closed

If we don't have sugar daddies what we will get is four top clubs and the rest. Like now only worse. Spurs and Liverpool might spend and challenge for the 4th spot for a time but unless a CL club implodes, they will keep seeing their best players and their best managers being taken from them until it causes the club to slide down.  Some clubs, like Swansea and Southampton (who I thought had a sugar daddy till he died) may even get up to that level of brief CL challenges while the TV money is so large but unless, say Arsenal, implode during their brief challenges, they will sink back down to midtable.

Whether, once your safely established in the cartel, you need the sugar daddy after, say, 5 years is another matter.
If Chelsea and Man City, after growing their turnover, stopped spending like they currently do, then you'd have 6 rich teams who would be on a relatively equal playing field. There would be no CL cartel.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5474 on: July 21, 2013, 04:23:34 pm »
If Chelsea and Man City, after growing their turnover, stopped spending like they currently do, then you'd have 6 rich teams who would be on a relatively equal playing field. There would be no CL cartel.

Maybe for a few years but then four of the six would settle into the CL and the two two would, like right now, be shafted by the cartel forever.

Only CL give a financial advantage that grows year on year that, bar implosion, bad management or stadium move (Arsenal's fight for 4th is about the last 2) means four of the six will have a finical advantage. Players want to play in CL so the clubs who are in said cartel have an ingrained advantage over the other two.

Each and every year, Europe hands Arsenal money to keep them ahead of Spurs and Liverpool, giving us prestige and a pulling power so when bidding for same player, Arsenal will win most of the time. Those, or most, that do join Liverpool or Spurs eventually want to play CL so if they are good enough, they end up moving. Maybe not to Arsenal but to Madrid's or the Man U's of the world and so further strengthen Arsenal's grip.


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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5475 on: July 21, 2013, 05:42:39 pm »
Maybe for a few years but then four of the six would settle into the CL and the two two would, like right now, be shafted by the cartel forever.

Only CL give a financial advantage that grows year on year that, bar implosion, bad management or stadium move (Arsenal's fight for 4th is about the last 2) means four of the six will have a finical advantage. Players want to play in CL so the clubs who are in said cartel have an ingrained advantage over the other two.

Each and every year, Europe hands Arsenal money to keep them ahead of Spurs and Liverpool, giving us prestige and a pulling power so when bidding for same player, Arsenal will win most of the time. Those, or most, that do join Liverpool or Spurs eventually want to play CL so if they are good enough, they end up moving. Maybe not to Arsenal but to Madrid's or the Man U's of the world and so further strengthen Arsenal's grip.
That's not obvious at all. When you're talking turnovers of 300m, an extra 20-30m is not make or break. It's only when it becomes a permanent disparity, and I don't see why it should have to become permanent. Granted, if another club imploded like we have, they might have trouble getting back, but if all the top clubs were spending within 20-30m of each other every year, good management would probably prevail more than simply who's got CL. Nor would players be quite so picky about not having CL when it's clear you have as good a shot as anyone as getting back in. I don't know, maybe you're right, but I really don't think the "cartel" would happen in England.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5476 on: July 21, 2013, 05:48:43 pm »
Ah now, if you get your wage turnover ratio down to 70% (Which will be pretty impressive) you'll still be in the same position that we are in, that once you pay wages and expenses, and sundry other bits and bobs, there's no cash left over to fund transfer signings. that means that ADUG are still going to have to be putting their hand in their pocket to pay for the net transfer spending. From the point of view of FFP, even if you get wages down to 70%, your huge amortization charge will push you into a large loss, unless you sell a lot of players for large profits on their book value.

The problem with man city's wage bill in 2011-12 (the last year figures were available) was that you were paying £8-10 million a year (which is far too much for a club like city) to too many players. Tevez and toure were at the top of the list, along with aguero and silva, who deserved those wages, and dzeko, ballotelli, Nasri and Adebayor, who probably didn't. The key for city to get their finances in control is to get rid of the players they didn't use, (adebayor, bridge, RSC, maicon) and then replace all bar the very best with quality players, on about £80k, saving Four or five million a year on wages at a time.

It will be interesting to see how city do this season under pellegrini, but it would be a lot more interesting if they had taken the necessary steps to end their continal reliance on their sugar daddy. We've seen that if you spend enough money, you can win the league, now what are you going to do next?
I've not quoted all your post but I'll answer all your points.

I did promise you I'd give you a breakdown of our finances as far as I could and how I see things panning out and I've used up a few envelopes. Last season (2012/13) should be the last one we report signifcant losses but there will be a difference in how the loss is made up. Ignoring the sale of IP we turned over £231m in 2011/12. We report corporate/hospitality match revenue as part of commercial income so I can't separate that out but I'm going to assume it's in the region of £20m. So total matchday income would have been around the £40m mark. We'll have increased that slightly as normal prices went up and demand for corporate seats went through the roof, I'm told. So let's add £2.5m to matchday. As we qualified for the CL as champions, we got more of the pool so that will probably be worth an extra £5m. We did some new sponsorships, with Heineken (which was worth about an additional £3m on its own) plus two entirely new ones with Boss & someone else so let's add £7.5m. All things being equal, that would give us income of around £250m for 2012/13.

I'll assume wages & operating expenses stay pretty much the same at £256m but I've worked out amortisation will come down to around £60m (and my 2011/12 estimate was very close to the published one) because of impairment provisions. We also made a profit on the sale of Balotelli of about £10m. So I'm looking at a loss of around £56m, all of which is basically amortisation. Word coming out of the club talks about £50m losses.

In this financial year we have a number of things that help us. The new TV deal will add at least £40m, when all the overseas rights are sold, maybe more. A new kit deal with Nike will add £10-12m and matchday prices have gone up by just under 10% so that will add another £3-4m. So without anything else, our income will increase by at least £50m add possibly up to £55m. That excludes any additional CL income if we should qualify from the group stages. That brings us up to £300+m in revenue.

Amortisation, including all current signings, will reduce to £50m according to my spreadsheet. Wages should come down as we've cleared off Bridge, Santa Cruz, Kolo Toure (none of whom will be replaced) at an annual saving of around £16m. Tevez, Maicon and Balotelli going will save us another £20m and the new signings so far will cost us about £15m. (Adebayor has been off our books for a couple of seasons). I assume there's still 2 or 3 more to go, as you suggested which will probably save us over £10m but even without those we've cut £20 off the wage bill, which we needed to do. Plus new contracts are being negotiated at lower basic wages, with more emphasis on performance payments. So I'd be looking at a wage bill under £180m this financial year, which will actually be 60% of turnover.

When we put those together, we have turnover of £300m, wages of £180m, other operating expenses of £55m giving an "cash" profit of £65m. Amortisation will be £50m which leaves us an operating profit of £15m before any financing costs on my figures. And that's excluding any further wage savings, additional CL income or sponsorships, all of which are quite possible. In terms of support from Abu Dhabi, I'd guess that around £50m a year comes from Etihad, Aabar & Etalisat. But Etihad are a growing, global airline and sports and other sponsorship has had measurable benefits for Qatar Airways and Emirates so presumably it pays off. Plus one of the key objectives behind the purchase of City was to promote Abu Dhabi and its commercial enterprises, so it's a fair bet they'd have spent that money somewhere, even if they hadn't bought us. I happen to know, from a well-placed source in The Gulf, that the recognition that owning City has brought them has completely exceeded their wildest expectations.

To move onto the players, you make a good point about Toure, Nasri & Dzeko. My suspicion is they'll have another season to prove their worth or they'll be off. As I've shown, there's no desperate financial need this season so it does no harm to have them around, particulalry if we need to prove ourselves in the CL. I also suspect that Pellegrini wants to see how Rodwell fares before letting Yaya go. We've also a potentially great youngster up front called John Guidetti, who has had crippling illness problems but should finally be available this season. If the new boys and Guidetti are OK, then Dzeko will go as there seems to have been no move to offer him a new contract as his is up in 2 years.

Two others under threat are Milner & Barry. Barry is a great PL asset most of the time but not up to the standard of the CL. Milner is a willing workhorse and does an incredible job covering the right-back but his end product is disappointing and he is currently the third biggest amortisation cost. Kolarov, Garcia & Sinclair are the ones most likely to go this summer, which would save another £8.5m in amortisation and maybe £9-10m in wages.

We've also got plans to increase capacity in the next 2/3 seasons, initially to 54,000 then to 60,000. A lot of that increase would be corporate I believe, which would add another £15m or more annually eventually. The other long-term sources of additional income will come from developments around the stadium. The first of those, the so-called Etihad Campus, is under construction currently and is due to come on stream fully in 12 months. most of that is the training complex but there are other things, like a hotel and specialist sports facilities, that will produce an income. But the biggest potential prize is what's known as the "collar site" where the super-casino was going to be situated. ADUG are working closely with the council to redevelop the whole area between the stadium and city centre (which badly needs it) but this is the next stage. I believe it will consist of a mixture of commercial, residential and leisure facilities. To make the point about people who use the tired old cliche "wait till the Sheikh gets bored", potential investors have been assured that ADUG will be around for many years to come (at least the next 20-30).

So I'm not in the slightest bit worried about our financial future as even from this financial year, we should be showing a profit and be pretty well self-sustaining. In the longer terms, if things go to plan, we will be financially unassailable. The Sheikh has just made a profit of £3bn out of Barclays, after he effectively bailed them out in 2008 when the credit crunch hit. He's a very shrewd man.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:52:13 am by ManchesterBlue »

Offline MagicHat

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5477 on: July 21, 2013, 05:51:49 pm »
That's not obvious at all. When you're talking turnovers of 300m, an extra 20-30m is not make or break. It's only when it becomes a permanent disparity, and I don't see why it should have to become permanent. Granted, if another club imploded like we have, they might have trouble getting back, but if all the top clubs were spending within 20-30m of each other every year, good management would probably prevail more than simply who's got CL. Nor would players be quite so picky about not having CL when it's clear you have as good a shot as anyone as getting back in. I don't know, maybe you're right, but I really don't think the "cartel" would happen in England.

Each and every year, the four clubs get a big chunk of money from Europe. Add in the big chunk of extra sponsorship that comes from being in the CL, the tickets and so on. Each and every year, the four clubs are getting a automatic extra cash injection, increasing the disparity year on year.

We already have a cartel in England. Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea and now Man City replacing Liverpool. It used to be Arsenal, Man U and Liverpool till sugerdaddies allowed clubs to break in and Liverpool imploded.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 05:54:07 pm by MagicHat »

Offline Blue Coop

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5478 on: July 21, 2013, 11:55:38 pm »
I find the debate on whether sugar daddies are good for the game an interesting one (though I would because I am a City fan). Just touching on MagicHats below comment 'We already have a cartel in England. Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea and now Man City replacing Liverpool. It used to be Arsenal, Man U and Liverpool till sugerdaddies allowed clubs to break in and Liverpool imploded.' I think this sums up football in England entirely.

There used to be a cartel of Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal - everybody has their own views on how this situation transpired, but success at the right time is a key factor. If you take Sugar daddies out of the game, then I think there would be a solid argument that the very same cartel would still exist - the rich get richer, and the poor stay poor. That doesn't sound very good for football to me. On the flip side, I can understand the frustration of some fans who watch their team slowly build only to be knocked back a step by a club splashing the cash because of a new rich owner getting in on the action.

I eventually always come to the same conclusion. Football in England was fuck*d either way - but what allowing sugar daddies into the game does is to bridge that gap between the cartel and the chasing pack, from time to time allowing it then to change (as we've seen recently with City and Chelsea) - if you take that out of the game completely (and FFP goes some way to doing that), then it doesn't paint a very good future picture either. It's a case of squeezing in now before the door shuts completely, otherwise what you are left with is the need for a real stroke of masterclass in the market on a limited budget while the rich continue to throw money around like its going out of fashion.
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As for City's signings this summer, I have mixed feelings. I am very pleased with the personnel - we might not be landing the top bracket players, but what we are doing is bringing in second bracket players in key areas where we were clearly lacking last year. I am slightly disappointed with some of the figures being banded around. I've heard excellent things about Fernandinho, but a 28 year-old is going to have to be some player to justify £30m+wages when he's going to have little re-sale value. Getting close to £100m spent and we still have a clear lack of centre-back cover. I'd like to see many more signings for the future ala Jovetic - Hopefully we will get to see more of that once the chaps at the top are done addressing our weak areas, of which there should be few after the money we have spent.


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Manchester City
« Reply #5479 on: July 22, 2013, 12:06:07 am »
The cartel used to be Liverpool and Everton and Arsenal. Lets not pretend that it was impossible to break into or out of that top group without a sugar daddy. 
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