Author Topic: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United  (Read 17372 times)

Offline Flinstone

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #120 on: November 5, 2012, 07:13:19 pm »
predictable stuff.

suarez is sublime.i wish he would learn to play the percentages a bit more though.i still feel tevez and aguero have a slight edge on him.

suso isn't quite ready to be a starter.i think assaidi and sterling should start with suso coming on as a sub.he still has a lot to learn.when we took him off and bought on shelvey what was the shape supposed to be?

playing wisdom at right back is hurting us.he's a fantastic prospect as a central defender.he has zero attacking impetus and we need our full backs to be attacking.

allen is tired.henderson should start a couple of games.

enrique is gash.i would like us to develop robinson.very natural player and long term would be very benificial to us.

roll on january
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Online John C

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #121 on: November 5, 2012, 07:31:40 pm »
I've been looking for a post that questions our strength having both Sahin & Suso on the pitch together. Both are technically gifted but I'm concerned that they seem to morph in to a single passenger at times - am I wrong? I think there's a strong argument for a tweak of the midfield over the next few months until we hopefully both buy a player and see the return of Lucas.

I'm not a massive fan of Henderson and I wonder if his exclusion is a bit more stubbornness than a lack of confidence in him by Rodgers. From the glimpses we've had of him this season he's put a reasonable shift in as cm, he's certainly been more tenacious than I recall last season. And although Allen made the fatal error of giving the ball away a couple of times yesterday, he demonstrated excellent ability to retrieve the ball a few times. He looked quick, strong and determined to regain possession, and not just because he was the culprit of dispossessing it.

So, my point is, in the interim play Henderson with Allen in a 4231 moving SG closer to Suarez. Its criminal seeing SG take the ball off Skrtel, once yesterday as Skrtel back-pass, when he should be in and around Suarez as a genuine goal threat. Depending on who we are playing, the two joining SG can be a combination of the remaining reasonably gifted players who must also be instructed to 'bomb on'. A phrase much used in football but little witnessed by us this season.

Of course the shape and character of our midfield wasn't to blame for not winning yesterday, it was simply lack of personnel in positions to threaten, that's something BR must address with the players when reviewing the game.

Like Stussy said yesterday, watching such a fantastic first 10 minutes without a goal you just know the last 10 minutes were going to be thoroughly panic-stricken.

I wouldn't blame Jones for the goal, his vision was initially obscured by Wisdom and by the time he saw the ball it was too late. Nonetheless, the cross for the goal shouldn't have been allowed, Sterling did well to get back to assist Enrique, they were 2 against 1 with Ben Arfa but they let him passed. It was so frustrating, dispossess him and Newcastles threat was gone.

Gutted once again for Brendan, but as I said in August, we are actually watching him learn on the job.



Edit - I'm thinking the same mate, at least try it anyway.

Henderson alongside Allen would be perfect, I can't understand why Rodger's is not trying that out. 
« Last Edit: November 5, 2012, 07:33:30 pm by John C »

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #122 on: November 5, 2012, 07:37:44 pm »
I dont know but this game along with many others really brings to mind what FS said. Get a striker like Torres in his pomp and we would have won the game. Right now, all teams that we play defend resolutely knowing fully well our scoring problems. All they do is stop Suarez and then defend determinedly and resolutely and hope for something on the break. Once we are able to score regularly despite all their best efforts at stopping us, and make teams understand that than, all that staunch and dogged defending that we see from a lot of those teams are going to disappear and what we will be witnessing are opposing teams playing like Norwich, confused and not knowing what to do.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2012, 07:40:05 pm by Mr_Shane »

Offline Reeves

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #123 on: November 5, 2012, 07:55:16 pm »
id drop suso and switch sg to right wing and bring in henderson
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #124 on: November 5, 2012, 09:03:29 pm »
Did the goal lift your spirits?

Yes and no.  It was a brilliant bit of skill but let us be honest, we are so dependent on the lad it is scary.  He is simply carrying us at the moment as we await a bit of something else from someone else whilst accepting it probably won't come because the something else is just not there.


Will the return of Lucas free Allen to orchestrate that havoc to a greater extent?


To orchestrate havoc we need the correct type of players.  The ones we are relying on either don't have the experience to make the right runs or don't have the ability.  Lucas' return might help but it will not be the answer to all our wrongs.

Is the defence tightening to some extent?

Difficult really because we have shipped one half chance and conceded one goal.  Our chances gifted to the opponents ratio to chances taken by them must be frightening.

Is Sterling growing?

He is getting better as he becomes more experienced but he does make the odd poor decision, which can be expected.  It isn't his fault that the weight of Liverpool Football Club has fallen on very young shoulders

Is Suso due a rest?

Suso would benefit more from having intelligent players playing round him than a rest.  We do not know where to run and when to run.

Did Enrique rise to the occasion?

Defensively?  Yes.  In possession? No


We all sound like broken records.  Our problems are so obvious it is untrue.  Last season most kept saying that it is just a matter of time before we click and drub someone by 5 or 6.  Unfortunately, 12 months on we still look exactly the same just with added possession.

We either do not know when and if we should get into the box or when we finally do get numbers in, we don't know what what to do.  A lot are criticising Enrique for this but in honesty it is a squad wide problem.

There was one incident in the first half yesterday when Suso had the ball wand was dribbling into the area.  For once we had 3 bodies in the box.  One was Sahin who was stood on the penalty spot and the other two were Sterling and (I think) Suarez.  Sahin quite rightly held his run but the other two remained static.  Unfortunately Suso found no one. That is no swipe at Suso because the whole team lacks a little know how.

Summed us up perfectly.

Why we can't just take a gamble kick a ball into a difficult area occasionally I will never know.  To much trying to be intricate for me.  Apart from the first 20 minutes Newcastle were far too comfortable

We'll have to wait and see what January brings and if January brings nothing, I cannot see us finishing many places above where we are now.  The ball is now firmly in FSG's court.  No more hiding behind internal budget fuck ups - get Ayre's socks and shoes off so he can count the numbers better.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #125 on: November 5, 2012, 09:12:44 pm »
dont mind us being intricate at all.

just we should only carry one player at most who cant be intricate otherwise the play gets fragmented.

way too often the wrong ball was played ......world class off the ball runs were missed by the ball player...players hung onto the ball when excellent options were on and around them.

its not like the players who caused this are excellent defensively so they cant be dropped.

time for rodgers to show what he is really made of.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #126 on: November 5, 2012, 09:13:22 pm »
btw i dont mean suso and sahin.
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #127 on: November 5, 2012, 09:30:57 pm »
dont mind us being intricate at all.

just we should only carry one player at most who cant be intricate otherwise the play gets fragmented.

way too often the wrong ball was played ......world class off the ball runs were missed by the ball player...players hung onto the ball when excellent options were on and around them.

its not like the players who caused this are excellent defensively so they cant be dropped.

time for rodgers to show what he is really made of.

If it costs us points I mind us being too intricate.

There were also countless times when players were wide with the ball and nobody central moved.  It isn't how intricate it is its that it is all disjointed in the last 3rd:  The timing of runs, the direction of runs, the pace we arrive in the box, the numbers of bodies in the box, delayed delivery into the box, the pace the ball goes in, our delivery from set pieces etc etc.

There isn't one problem - there is a hat full and I honestly can't see anyone in the squad being the answer.  Again, that is no swipe at the young lads at all.  We just should not be over reliant on them.

Sometimes just whipping a ball in can cause a problem and lead to a goal.  Everything we do at the moment is predictable and very easy to defend against unless Suarez is involved.  If we don't have the personnel to deal with our goalscoring problem we have to be smarter in every way we can.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #128 on: November 5, 2012, 09:34:52 pm »
first of all an aside from the game, i think people are already putting way too much onus on Lucas before he is back he has missed practically 12 months so I worry about this all will be well when Lucas returns and the reaction if it isn't!

As for the game reminded me of last season missed easy chances , fairly dominated the game went behind with a sucker goal just before half time, second half started slowly as we did for most of last season, then a piece of brilliance from our only striker of note. From then on we bombarded them without any success and missed some absolute sitters as well.
Not sure if we hit the woodwork though.

As for the team, Jones could have had a deck chair for most of the game,
Enrique good pass for the goal but he is a shadow of the early part of last season, he seems to be lumbering along and lacking in confidence or ability right now.
Wisdom steady except for the foul throw a basic error which helped to cost us.
CB's brilliant yet again is there a better duo in the prem?
Midfield doesn't work in its present form, we need to tweak it rather than change the people in it, Gerrard and Sahin switched around will help.
Sterling good but should have scored,
 Suso probably except for the run in the box in the first invisible really, certainly no threat as a striker.
Shelvey ok not great certainly should have scored on at least one occasion but he is young and will improve as will Sterling and Suso.

Downing i have defended him a lot but we need more than one decent cross from an experienced English International he is a poor bit part player right now but surely there has to be something more than this to his game?

Suarez what a nightmare for defenders. never stops, always doing something different, he is like a firecracker around the pitch and the only world class player on view from both sides yesterday, the guy is an enigma he makes the impossible look easy and at times makes the easy seem impossible, he is an instinct player for me and he comes awry when he has too long to think about what he is doing.

Man of the match for sure and frankly if he gets banned or injured we are in deep shit.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #129 on: November 5, 2012, 09:37:34 pm »
If it costs us points I mind us being too intricate.

There were also countless times when players were wide with the ball and nobody central moved.  It isn't how intricate it is its that it is all disjointed in the last 3rd:  The timing of runs, the direction of runs, the pace we arrive in the box, the numbers of bodies in the box, delayed delivery into the box, the pace the ball goes in, our delivery from set pieces etc etc.

There isn't one problem - there is a hat full and I honestly can't see anyone in the squad being the answer.  Again, that is no swipe at the young lads at all.  We just should not be over reliant on them.

Sometimes just whipping a ball in can cause a problem and lead to a goal.  Everything we do at the moment is predictable and very easy to defend against unless Suarez is involved.  If we don't have the personnel to deal with our goalscoring problem we have to be smarter in every way we can.

agree re the hat full.
maybe not loads but enough little ones which all add up.
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Offline mrsphilthefish

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #130 on: November 5, 2012, 09:42:50 pm »
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Offline redtel

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #131 on: November 5, 2012, 09:45:56 pm »
Great post by Timbo and he is correct in saying the Kemlyn view of the goal showed it best.

We sit in the Lower Centenary,sixth row, by the Kop corner.

The guy near me said it was the best goal he had ever seen at Anfield. I nodded thinking about some others I had seen down the years. I mulled it over and think it is the best individual goal I've seen there since most have been team goals. It's how we play.

God scored a few goals on his own and Billy when we were Liddellpool but this one will live long in the memory for it's pace,skill and audacity.

The game was a re-run which we will see again no doubt.

Moving Gerrard further forward or to the right might be the correct thing to do but we should remember he is the long standing club captain, England Captain, and BR needs the captain on his side just now with a thin squad and just one striker. Would it rock the boat especially if the press got a whiff that Gerrard wanted to play where he is now.

The time will come when the manager can make that move as it was scary how Gerrard let Cabaye go for the goal and just after gave the ball away close to goal.

We have to thank Enrique for that pass but most of the time he couldn't find a red shirt which is worrying if we are playing this style. Shelvey had his worst cameo I have seen as he not only missed his chances but looked knackered after only playing for 10mins. Puzzling that one.

Joe Allen really needs a break. I hope he is left behind when they fly off to Moscow. A refreshed Allen would help at Chelsea on Sunday but can he also rest Gerrard who has shown he struggles with these two games close together.

We have had some great shots go in our nets so far this season but really it's down to the lack of marking. Gera in the opener, Rafael at Anfield, Osman last Sunday and now Cabaye all unmarked.
We need to work harder and smarter when we havn't got the ball.

I am unsure if Suarez is off to S.America during the next international break but I think we should plan an injury to make sure he can miss it. A Giggs type of injury.  We need this fella badly.

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Offline Runehammer

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #132 on: November 5, 2012, 10:02:26 pm »
first of all an aside from the game, i think people are already putting way too much onus on Lucas before he is back he has missed practically 12 months so I worry about this all will be well when Lucas returns and the reaction if it isn't!

Valid cause for concern I think.

Downing i have defended him a lot but we need more than one decent cross from an experienced English International he is a poor bit part player right now but surely there has to be something more than this to his game?

In fairness to him here, who was there to cross to for most of the match?  That said tho' I can't see him ever being good enough for us, he just doesn't have the mindset IMHO.

Offline Number 7

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #133 on: November 5, 2012, 10:41:33 pm »
First of all I'd like to say how much I like appreciate round table discussions. The post match thread on Sunday was littered with posts saying that we were poor. I'm really sure which perspective fans view the game in these days, but we certainly weren't poor. In fact, the match was symptomatic of a well known problem that we face currently. It's the usual suspects – opposition score on first shot, chances not put away, not enough firepower. There are continued signs of encouragement but we're continually hampered by the same issues.

This is not the ideal team, remember. We had 5 first 11 starters absent. Reina, Johnson, Lucas, Kelly and Borini would all have probably played if fit. Neither are we the finished article yet. We are much more solidified in midfield though. Allen, Sahin and Gerrard have dominated most midfields this season, and Newcastle were no exception. They couldn't get a foothold and distribute the play to look for Cisse or Ba. I thought Suso was OK, nothing too extravagant. I almost feel he's being a little wasted out there on the right when he can be most damaging at the apex of the midfield. The problem is, how does he play there when we have Gerrard in that role. I would actually give Suso a rest for Chelsea, because like the Everton game I feel he'll be a bit drowned out in that atmosphere. He's not having as much of an impact on the game as Sterling is.

Suarez is a genius. Remember those days when Fernando Torres was in his prime, and scoring goals for fun? I often pinched myself just to re-affirm that he actually played for us. That we actually had an individual that was so good at his trade. Well my friends, cherish Luis Suarez, because we should be grateful he plays for us. I like many others echo the sentiments that had he not been here we'd be up shit creek without a paddle. At times you feel the little flick ons he tries need to be received by someone on the same wavelength has him. He seems to just be a level above everyone else on the team. I believe that he'll cause even more havoc with better players around him. With another goalscorer in the team that impact will be far greater because the chances he creates will get tucked away - hopefully. I think he'll trust another forward who's regularly scoring.

He is absolute delight to watch, and even going in to games like Chelsea away you still feel confident that we could take something from the game, because a moment of brilliance from him can snatch us a goal or two.

Sterling impressed me yet again. Not only is he putting fear in opposing defenders, but he's a little terrier. His tenacity in chasing back, or harrying for the ball makes him even more crucial to the team. I thought yesterday was one of this best games for us. He very rarely loses the ball, and has the strength to hold off the defender. I think a lot of defenders start the game thinking they can bully him off the ball because he's smaller than them, but are quickly surprised when he holds his own against them. He was just a headache for the Newcastle defenders all game long, and unlike the Everton game, where he didn't get much joy, he had a lot of open space to play with, and he just ran at their defence. I noticed a lot of the free kicks went his way as well. If he could just add the finishing element to his game, we'd have quite the player on our hands.

The lack of firepower has to be addressed in January if we still harbour hopes of a top 6 finish, or indeed breaking through in to the top 4. We do create chances and one more 20 goal man would have put a lot of chances away by now, and we'd be higher up the table. if Shelvey's 'sitter' had been presented to a '20 goal man', the chances are he would have put it away. I often hear the argument that we didn't buy a striker in the summer. Well actually, we did buy one. It just so happens that he's injured for 3 months. Whether or not he would have been banging in the goals is up for debate, but the larger issue of course is that our position was effectively compromised by the lack of a decent replacement for Carroll.

We're playing some good stuff, but there is always room for improvement. Our crossing, and corner delivery needs to get a lot better. Every corner basically met the first man, and the ones that didn't sailed over everyone in the box. Some players are still making the wrong decision in the final third. Enrique played some bewildering passes in their half.

That's 5 unbeaten in the league. They say that winning breeds confidence, but surely not losing instills some form of steel as well.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #134 on: November 6, 2012, 12:59:37 am »
suarez is sublime.i wish he would learn to play the percentages a bit more though.i still feel tevez and aguero have a slight edge on him.

suso isn't quite ready to be a starter.i think assaidi and sterling should start with suso coming on as a sub.he still has a lot to learn.when we took him off and bought on shelvey what was the shape supposed to be?

playing wisdom at right back is hurting us.he's a fantastic prospect as a central defender.he has zero attacking impetus and we need our full backs to be attacking.

allen is tired.henderson should start a couple of games.

enrique is gash.i would like us to develop robinson.very natural player and long term would be very benificial to us.

roll on january
predictable stuff.

suarez is sublime.i wish he would learn to play the percentages a bit more though.i still feel tevez and aguero have a slight edge on him.

suso isn't quite ready to be a starter.i think assaidi and sterling should start with suso coming on as a sub.he still has a lot to learn.when we took him off and bought on shelvey what was the shape supposed to be?

playing wisdom at right back is hurting us.he's a fantastic prospect as a central defender.he has zero attacking impetus and we need our full backs to be attacking.

allen is tired.henderson should start a couple of games.

enrique is gash.i would like us to develop robinson.very natural player and long term would be very benificial to us.

roll on january

Can't disagree with a lot of what you say but in fairness we knew we'd be in for a struggle when we fucked up the transfer window. It actually could have been much worse had it not been for youngsters over-achieving albeit still not being quite what we've needed to get where we crave to be.

Re Enrique - I think he's shown a lot more of the early form of last season in these recent games. He may still be a bit wayward but not like he was when went off the boil entirely around Christmas time. I see someone working his balls off to regain his best form. I doubt he'll ever have the football brain we'd all like him to have and his final ball can be as frustrating as it gets but he's also got some outstanding qualities that offer some balance and compensation for his shortcomings. Bear in mind I've yet to see a Liverpool full back without any blemishes at all.

As for Luis. You know something. I wouldn't swap him for anyone. Even Messi - and like everyone else who watches footy I know full well Messi is the best in the world, arguably as good as there's ever been . But Luis is now such an integral a part of LFC. He's so much one of us following the Evra business - and that counts for more than can ever be quantified. As for Aguero and Tevez. Sure they offer some amazing qualities but I'd have Luis every time over each of them. In fact I'd rather Luis than both of them together.   

Offline downtown

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #135 on: November 6, 2012, 02:31:26 am »
I was going to write a post about our midfield structure, but I came across this on .tv boards and I'll just quote it. Agree with pretty much all of it.

Quote
I understand that Lucas is out and that if he was fit we'd be setting up differently. Though I'm still not sure what it would look like.

However, with Lucas out we have three midfielders to choose from. Each of them has a specific natural position. None of them are playing in it at the moment.

About Allen. Give him the ball with nobody around him, ask him to hit short and long passes and you'll realise that there is nothing special about his passing ability. He can hit his target - most professional footballers can. His passing is not crisp, it's often not at the right pace and it's often not at an angle. What he does really well though is he can keep the ball in tight areas, get out of trouble and make turns, which is why he can relieve himself of the pressure before releasing the ball - thus completing the pass.

But in the position he's currently in, the above qualities are not that essential. As the last man in midfield he has all the time and space on the ball. And the qualities he possess are not needed - his shortcomings exposed instead. He can't dictate the flow of the game because his passing range is not of the required standard. He can't run with the ball because there are too many people in front of him and too few behind him. In essence, there is only his defensive game to turn to and he does that part well. and hence the 50% missing that Rodgers referred to.

On the other hand there is Sahin. A man with a fantastic passing range when not under pressure. He can pass the ball in every way that Allen cannot - as long as he's not under immense pressure. It's why he was the deep lying midfielder at Dortmund and why he was good enough to be Bundesliga's best player. He wasn't making runs into the box, he wasn't running with the ball. He wasn't running that much in general. He played with the ball. In this midfield everything is turned upside down for him. He's asked to stretch the legs that he doesn't have.

Basically, between Allen and Sahin, we have a busy player asked to run less and a "lazy" player asked to run more. Both players are struggling because of it. Playing sahin as a #10 is like playing Xabi as a #10. It will never work, and is just ridiculous.

Then there is Gerrard. Asked to play deep for no apparent reason. The man has a few qualities left in his repertoire and none of them include being the metronome in midfield. He can still beat the nearest man, power through a marker or finish off a chance. He's just never in those positions in our setup.

We have 3 very good midfielders and none of them are producing the goods. Only in bits and pieces because all 3 have amazing quality and such players will always produce something. But if we want them playing at full pelt - and one can assume we do - then we need to set up our midfield differently. If Sahin can't play behind Gerrard and Allen then that is an individual problem and he shouldn't be starting. If Rodgers feels that Allen needs to possess the ball because he "understands the way Rodgers wants to play" then he's wrong.

Play all 3 of them in their right positions and if one of them can't hack it then he will either sit on the bench or we will have to live with one of the three struggling. This way they're all struggling and so is the team.

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #136 on: November 6, 2012, 02:38:25 am »
Hi everyone, if you haven't already then please make sure you've signed the epetition for Anne Williams before you write anymore posts on RAWK

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Offline Rowbizzle

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #137 on: November 6, 2012, 02:49:04 am »
ive always been a fan of jonjo but i was more than frustrated with him at the end of that match. i wasnt just his fault why we drew but he certainly had at least 2 chances to make sure we got all 3 points

Offline FresnoBee

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #138 on: November 6, 2012, 03:25:07 am »
The talk about Gerrard on the right is doing my head in. He doesn't have the pace, energy, and most importantly, willingness to play there. He's an England captain that play in CM; and that's where he can and want to play. Even Rafa gave up on his demand to not playing on the wing. And whenever he's fit, he should play, as his experience and ability are still important to have in a young squad. Maybe if in the next transfer window, BR can get another one or two experience midfielders, Gerrard won't be as important as he's now.

Offline carl2782

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #139 on: November 6, 2012, 03:37:05 am »
I hope not too many mind if I skip the questions from the OP to address one point - one or two on here have mentioned that Wisdom wasn't getting enough cover from Suso. We've seen the same issue frequently since Wisdom has been playing RB.



Count how many players we have in the box when it goes in. Not counting Ben Arfa, Enrique and Sterling it's 5 Liverpool defenders on 3 Newcastle attackers. When we outnumber them by two and Cabaye still gets the ball completely unmarked, that to me says someone in the box was ball-watching, not that another player was supposed to be there. It looks like when the attack is coming from the opposite side, one of the midfielders is supposed to come across and pick up that man and Suso stays on the wing to be an outlet and counter. He's part of 3 forwards, not a right winger in this system. If Suso tracks Cabaye that only leaves Sahin and Suarez as outlets when we win the ball back. The problem is Allen and Gerrard for me there. Allen gets drawn to the ball too much and leaves Gerrard alone central in front of the back 4. He then has to stay there in case there's another runner from CM.  Allen and Agger both go to the same area marking no-one and leave Wisdom and Skrtel 3 players. That's organization and communication, not a lack of graft from the winger.

Offline Number 7

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #140 on: November 6, 2012, 04:49:52 am »
The talk about Gerrard on the right is doing my head in. He doesn't have the pace, energy, and most importantly, willingness to play there. He's an England captain that play in CM; and that's where he can and want to play. Even Rafa gave up on his demand to not playing on the wing. And whenever he's fit, he should play, as his experience and ability are still important to have in a young squad. Maybe if in the next transfer window, BR can get another one or two experience midfielders, Gerrard won't be as important as he's now.

I think it's more the fact that we need to get him closer to Suarez, and also that he's still one of the best finishers at the club. The further up he plays the better chance we have of scoring.

Of course this is all dependant on Lucas coming back. Allen will get pushed further forward and Gerrard won't need to drop back. Saying this, I think Gerrard's natural tendancy is to drop back anyway. Often in games he doesn't trust the rest of the midfield. This happened much more last season than this because last season there was no one even close to stepping in to Lucas' shoes while he was injured. This season Allen is doing a great job there.

I think Rodgers will try it once Lucas is back because he knows we need more goals and firepower upfront.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #141 on: November 6, 2012, 07:56:48 am »
I could wax lyrical about the equaliser for an age, however, others with more literary competancy than I have covered all the bases.
Not for the first, or second time this season we have lacked any sort of penetration, until that is we seem to 'abandon the system' and go for broke. Funnily, it seems to suit our players more as well. As a team we seem to perform better when we're let off the leash so to speak.
Yet again Downing gives us reason to dislike him, just as Luis leaves us with our mouths agape. Gerrard really shouldn't be playing where he is, it seems we're wasting his autumn years. I just hope the much mooted deployment in the front three comes to fruition with the return of Lucas.
I'm hoping that the last 15-20 mins was as a result of us tiring our opposition, rather than the previously mentioned abandonment. If this is the case then the results of Brendans efforts could well be appearing.

Other than the points I've made it was pretty much a now standard home performance.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline No666

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #142 on: November 6, 2012, 08:04:34 am »
The annoying way this keeps popping up in threads isn't going to stop until you all go and sign:

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40925

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #143 on: November 6, 2012, 08:21:08 am »
I hope not too many mind if I skip the questions from the OP to address one point - one or two on here have mentioned that Wisdom wasn't getting enough cover from Suso. We've seen the same issue frequently since Wisdom has been playing RB.


Wisdom instinctively always moves inwards, as he is a natural CB. And Suso is not a natural winger, so that is 2 players playing out of position on the flanks.

If it was man marking, then it had to be Gerrard marking Cabaye.
But I wonder who is responsible if we were doing zonal marking. Its definitely Wisdom's zone, but what if another player or two drops in to that zone?

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #144 on: November 6, 2012, 09:30:10 am »
I was going to write a post about our midfield structure, but I came across this on .tv boards and I'll just quote it. Agree with pretty much all of it.


I've been hearing a few fellas at the match going on about none of the midfield knowing their exact role which I'm now assuming alludes to the points your LFCtv post was making. I can sort of see the thrust of the argument and it's quite an insightful one on the face of it. In the cold light of another frustrating failure to gather the three points a lot of the analysis does seem to stand up.

And yet, what about the opening 15 minutes of yesterdays Newcastle game?

Possibly as an entire unit the midfield, nay, the entire team was functioning like a highly tuned Barcelona. Pressing, passing, combining, oozing skill and pace, tenacious, smooth, overlapping. It yieded zilch, yet say with a Vermaelon playing for them like the twat did against United, perhaps we might have been 3 goals to the good by the 15 minute mark. Newcastle didn't know whether they were coming or going for that opening period - apart from, crucially to the games outcome, an admirable collective resilience at the heart of their defence which managed to hold out until the lack of reward saw us lose our opening impetus and tempo.

What I'm saying is that perhaps the criticism of Rodgers midfield selection/deployment is borne out of our entirely understandable frustration with the collective failure of a team to get the return from so many matches that its overall play has probably earned. Yet that continued failure is not just down to one aspect of play. It's down to an assortment of things ranging from undeniable match official incompetance/bias to lack of composure/assuredness up front and at the back.

Personally, whilst I can see the shortcomings in midfield that people are highlighting, I don't see them as anything other than a symptom as distinct from an underlying cause of why we are constantly falling short of where we want to be. Taking things as a whole I still see the almighty transfer window fuck up as the root cause of a frustrating opening period which has seen us two proven quality attacking players short of putting a further 10 -15 points on the board.

Everything else we've seen has been a pretty valiant attempt by Rodgers to make do and mend, albeit punctuated by inevitable misjudgements that characterize any new regime. The upside is that he's almost though not quite  managed to snatch victory from the jaws of our own heirarchy inflicted defeat on half a dozen occasions and in the process we've been enriched by the introduction of 4 or 5 youngsters who have stepped up to the plate, if proving not quite ready to provide sufficient quality at the moment to enable the team attain the level we crave. The other shining upside has been a clutch of bravado front man performances from Luis Suarez that for me have re-written the meaning of the term world class.

On the downside, dropped points are still dropped points and we must wonder how long until the malaise of repeated failure to garner these points begins to impact on confidence to the point where not only results but performance begins to suffer. At the moment that hasn't happened but with a squad reliant on making do and mending with youngsters we remain on a knife edge in that respect and further negativity is the last thing we need.       

Offline amoh

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #145 on: November 6, 2012, 11:47:19 am »
Two days have passed now and the genius of that equaliser is yet to diminish.  If Luis Suarez is driving you away from football, please, shut the door behind you and don't come back in.  That goal, that player, make a Sunday afternoon with the miserable arses of the Main Stand - with no alcohol in your system - worthwhile.

We have a player here who I've never seen anything like - nor will we again in all likelihood.  Discussion continues as to whether we bring a striker in; for me, we don't need a striker.  What we need are wide players who are prepared to constantly take advantage of the absolute mayhem Suarez's movement - and sometimes sheer presence alone - causes in opposition defences.  Sterling's starting to add it to his game, which is great.  Without going all Footy Manager, I think Walcott would be great for this team and for Suarez.  He's frustrating, he isn't the world's tidiest player, and it could be argued he lacks a football brain.  But, what he offers is penetration; he'll be a player who attacks the spaces that Suarez's genius creates.  Somebody like Pedro shows that you don't have to be the world's slickest player; you just have to be a player who's able to exploit the opportunities that can be presented through playing with such a special player.


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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #146 on: November 6, 2012, 11:48:55 am »
I hope not too many mind if I skip the questions from the OP to address one point - one or two on here have mentioned that Wisdom wasn't getting enough cover from Suso. We've seen the same issue frequently since Wisdom has been playing RB.



Count how many players we have in the box when it goes in. Not counting Ben Arfa, Enrique and Sterling it's 5 Liverpool defenders on 3 Newcastle attackers. When we outnumber them by two and Cabaye still gets the ball completely unmarked, that to me says someone in the box was ball-watching, not that another player was supposed to be there. It looks like when the attack is coming from the opposite side, one of the midfielders is supposed to come across and pick up that man and Suso stays on the wing to be an outlet and counter. He's part of 3 forwards, not a right winger in this system. If Suso tracks Cabaye that only leaves Sahin and Suarez as outlets when we win the ball back. The problem is Allen and Gerrard for me there. Allen gets drawn to the ball too much and leaves Gerrard alone central in front of the back 4. He then has to stay there in case there's another runner from CM.  Allen and Agger both go to the same area marking no-one and leave Wisdom and Skrtel 3 players. That's organization and communication, not a lack of graft from the winger.

Thanks for that. It's just shit defending all round. Every single Red is drawn towards the ball. Two players to try and block the cross, two to cover the front post  - that's to say 4 defenders to deal with Ben Arfa. Cabaye doesn't do anything clever until he gets the ball. He doesn't stagger his run, he doesn't change direction, he doesn't even sprint. He just maintains his position and watches the entire Liverpool defence move towards the ball. Bloody kids' stuff.                                                 
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #147 on: November 6, 2012, 11:55:54 am »
Two days have passed now and the genius of that equaliser is yet to diminish.  If Luis Suarez is driving you away from football, please, shut the door behind you and don't come back in.  That goal, that player, make a Sunday afternoon with the miserable arses of the Main Stand - with no alcohol in your system - worthwhile.

We have a player here who I've never seen anything like - nor will we again in all likelihood.  Discussion continues as to whether we bring a striker in; for me, we don't need a striker.  What we need are wide players who are prepared to constantly take advantage of the absolute mayhem Suarez's movement - and sometimes sheer presence alone - causes in opposition defences.  Sterling's starting to add it to his game, which is great.  Without going all Footy Manager, I think Walcott would be great for this team and for Suarez.  He's frustrating, he isn't the world's tidiest player, and it could be argued he lacks a football brain.  But, what he offers is penetration; he'll be a player who attacks the spaces that Suarez's genius creates.  Somebody like Pedro shows that you don't have to be the world's slickest player; you just have to be a player who's able to exploit the opportunities that can be presented through playing with such a special player.

Someone like Grant Holt or Kevin Doyle would be good for Suarez. I'd look at the lower leagues or foreign leagues and look for journeyman pickers up of pieces who know their job and do it well. Over and above anything else we plan for the future, get a couple of these cheap short term players of that kind in.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #148 on: November 6, 2012, 12:05:12 pm »
Someone like Grant Holt or Kevin Doyle would be good for Suarez. I'd look at the lower leagues or foreign leagues and look for journeyman pickers up of pieces who know their job and do it well. Over and above anything else we plan for the future, get a couple of these cheap short term players of that kind in.

I suggested Holt in the summer, watched him a lot earlier in his career, and he always impressed me, not got a fantastic conversion rate, but always seemed to 'find' the ball. I was obviously ridiculed for my suggestion, as people we still probably lusting after the Lavezzi's and Huntelaars of the world. But he's a trier, bit on the old side now, and he's never been the most mobile of players anyway, but I've watched him this season and it's obvious that old father time is catching him up, but he'll get into double figures if he stays injury free, and I'll wager only Suarez, and possibly Gerrard achieve the same feat for us.
Good shout on Doyle as well, btw.
Another outside for the role, depending on value would be Shane Long, willing runner, and knows where the goal is.
We need to do something though, because all this waiting around for the likes of Huntelaar, Lavezzi, Llorente et al is doing my head in.  ;)
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #149 on: November 6, 2012, 12:30:09 pm »
Thanks for that. It's just shit defending all round. Every single Red is drawn towards the ball. Two players to try and block the cross, two to cover the front post  - that's to say 4 defenders to deal with Ben Arfa. Cabaye doesn't do anything clever until he gets the ball. He doesn't stagger his run, he doesn't change direction, he doesn't even sprint. He just maintains his position and watches the entire Liverpool defence move towards the ball. Bloody kids' stuff.                                                 

id say cabayes decision may look like he has done nothing much
in fact he knows if the fullback sees him and marks him then he has done his job as the defence then gets a gap batween the centre back and full back or if the centre back reacts too...a gap between both centre backs.

its something downing doesnt read much of....saying that we dont get men in the box in these situations
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #150 on: November 6, 2012, 12:36:39 pm »
I was going to write a post about our midfield structure, but I came across this on .tv boards and I'll just quote it. Agree with pretty much all of it.


I actually wouldn't agree with any of it. I thought Sahin did well against Newcastle, in the first half he got into the box a lot when needed but yet again our final ball wasn't good enough. When Sahin dropped a bit deeper in the second half he gave away a number of silly freekicks by sliding in unnecessarily. There's no way I want him playing as the deepest midfielder.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #151 on: November 6, 2012, 01:03:26 pm »
Someone like Grant Holt or Kevin Doyle would be good for Suarez. I'd look at the lower leagues or foreign leagues and look for journeyman pickers up of pieces who know their job and do it well. Over and above anything else we plan for the future, get a couple of these cheap short term players of that kind in.

There is a player at Leverkusen, Sidney Sam, who would be perfect for Suarez AND FSG I would think. Top talent which has been overseen by the big clubs so far (has been injured as well) but with massive talent and finishing abilities while being young, mobile and strong.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #152 on: November 6, 2012, 01:09:01 pm »
My major concern with the current midfield structure is that it represents a bigger issue that we have been struggling with for pretty much a decade.  Our decline in the last 20 years has run in parallel with a shift in power.  Whereas in the days of Shankly and Paisley, the power rested in the hands of the club and it's management, since the inception of the Premier League it has slowly shifted towards the players and especially those that have at one point or another become indispensible. 

I will skip past a whole load of conjecture to my point that there is a very strong argument for Steven Gerrard not playing in his current role.  Given his attributes and those of other squad members he could be better used in another role.  The longer Rodgers persists with this, the worse it will get.  However, the flip side is that Rodgers may want to let Gerrard play himself out of midfield, rather than go head-to-head with a clearly powerful figure at Anfield.  Managers reigns have been cut drastically short when they've tried this approach so it may be prudent from Rodgers point of view to avoid conflict.  Gerrard will be 33 at the end of the season and perhaps more open to alternatives, like a position further forward or a squad role.

Anyway, one way or another the power structure needs to be addressed.  We have always championed our heroes and elevated them to larger than life status.  It is the management's job to reign this in and ensure the team does not suffer because of it.  To a certain extent I see this happening with Luis Suarez.  He is so incredibly brilliant and we are so blindly in love that we fail to see that he is still just one cog in the overall machine (albeit an important part).  If we do not develop the rest of the team then there is still only so much one man can do.  As evidenced by Gerrard, who won us cups on his own but has not been able to deliver the league because it is too much of a burden to expect one man to consistently perform at a high level for 9 months and 38 games.  To his credit Benitez saw this very early with Gerrard and tried his best to manage that situation. 

Offline carl2782

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 1-1 Newcastle United
« Reply #153 on: November 6, 2012, 06:01:23 pm »
Thanks for that. It's just shit defending all round. Every single Red is drawn towards the ball. Two players to try and block the cross, two to cover the front post  - that's to say 4 defenders to deal with Ben Arfa. Cabaye doesn't do anything clever until he gets the ball. He doesn't stagger his run, he doesn't change direction, he doesn't even sprint. He just maintains his position and watches the entire Liverpool defence move towards the ball. Bloody kids' stuff.                                                 

Yeah, it is but the point is it's just our deepest two CMs adjusting to the fact that in this system they have to be aware of and nullify threats from the sides as well as their opposite CMs. If another player comes from the centre, Sahin needs to be tracking him - but that player doesn't come so Sahin doesn't. Long-term I'm sure we can fix this because neither of those two players are used to being a DM. Sure we're in danger at the moment of building him up too much in our minds but if you put Lucas in Allen's position in that move, would he get drawn to the near post or stay central in case another runner comes, leaving Gerrard to go across and mark Cabaye?