Topic: RAWK's Writers' Round Table Red Ruminations.

[Hinesy]

For those who don't know, there's a little place where the Scribes of the site can meet and chat and discuss stuff without someone writing "But we should sign Messi, he's gud". It's like a pub. In fact it is a pub and occasionally we all sit at the big round table and discuss stuff like the upcoming season and if I'm not too pished I'll write up the minutes and on we go.

So here's some questions I asked of the scribes and here are their answers and discussions. Please feel free to join in the thread but it will be heavily moderated so please ensure your contribution is worthwhile.

ta.



So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
Away v most of the league
Home or Away v bigger games
ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
I'll bring up some more points later maybe.

[The 5th Benitle]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
 
No, I don't think he has. He knows us, he knows how we tired very quickly of our last manager making excuses and he's not just making empty promises, he's going to give it his best shot. On JWH, I see that as him thinking finances when he mentions top 4, and referring to CL revenue. From what I know of him, he wants to win. Put it this way, if Kenny had said top 4 and JWH said title, I'd be concerned.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
OK before I answer, I will say that I still expect at least two midfielders to be sold. As you'll see I also don't expect wildly different XIs for different opposition and venues.

Home v park the bus teams
I've seen many say that we can afford to dispense with Lucas at home. To me that's insanity. Sure he's a great little tackler but he also sets our tempo and gets us passing. You can't pass without a football. There's just no logic to the idea, it comes from those who never understood that having two holding midfielders was a positive move as it freed up the fullbacks.
I honestly don't think home selections will be much different to away selections. So:

Away v most of the league
See above answer.

Home or Away v bigger games
I think the spine will be the same spine as we would aim for in all games, ie Reina, Agger (if fit), Lucas, Gerrard (if fit), Suarez.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

I've kind of hinted above with my short answers that I don't believe Kenny will do anything more than pick what he considers to be his strongest eleven at the time, whatever the opposition. Where I think he and SC will play around however is in the systems employed. For example, it fascinated me last year at Stamford Bridge when Kenny employed a diamond and put Lucas on Anelka. It was an absolute masterstroke, not least as everyone was worrying how we were going to stop Drogba and Torres. So he does adapt to the opposition but more in terms of subtle tactical changes than personnel ones. We'll see a 4-1-4-1, 4-3-3, 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 and we'll all argue after the game about which system was actually used. Love it.
 
We will however, and quite rightly so, listen to our fitness staff when it comes to selection. We have the luxury of choice in certain areas and so I expect people to be rested periodically. This is of course a great thing. But I don't think it's as simple as certain players playing big games (bar Reina, Suarez, Gerrard and Lucas) - who is training well will come into it more than ever.
 
On another tactical note, I really don't like this assumption that Downing has purely been bought to plant crosses on Carroll's head. It demeans both players, they have far more to their games and as far as corssing goes, I expect, as ever, our full backs to provide as many crosses as any attacking wide players.

[Azi]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
 

in my opinion no, Kenny knows what this team is capable and for me its aimed at the players not just the fans, giving them a little bit of encouragement by believing their good enough for the title they showed it during the run their match for anyone we just need to find that consistency, and like a great man once said "A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are.”

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
 
Home v park the bus teams
For me it’s going to be Lucas and Adam in the holding role with a three man Downing and Suarez with Aquilani just behind Carroll I feel last couple of seasons our downfall at home has been getting that early goal that makes teams attack us which in turn leaves them vulnerable to the counter but for me with Aquilani and Adam they can play that killer pass that can split the defence and allow someone to finish  Gerrard use to have that sort of Telepathy with Torres who knew where and when  to play the ball and for me Aquilani can replicate  this with Suarez and Carroll. Can I just add I’m probably one of the few that believes Gerrard will be a bit part player this season and that’s the reason I haven’t added him in my starting 11

Away v most of the league

I think for most of the league similar tactics will be played to the ones we play at Anfield defend from the front, constant pressure on the home side force them to make mistakes but a don’t see too mange changes from the usual 11 injuries permitting

Home or Away v bigger games

Think Kuyt maybe coming In for downing which would allow us to have a more rigid 442 as we will need more runners than usual also adding in the fact kuyt has a knack of scoring in big games Kenny might play him in bigger games more than he does in the lesser games where the emphasis will be on possession and keeping control but apart from that I think the core of the starting 11 will be the same injuries permitting maybe just in a different formation

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

I think what we may see is more unorthodox formations as we go along into the season depending on how our players fitness holds up over the season and a team which plays into our own strengths rather than our opponents weaknesses .I expect our team to push up and defend from the front chase down every pass made by the opposition don’t let them sit on the ball constant pressure applied on the opposition something that was sorely missed under Hodgson

[royhendo]

John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

Haha, well (and I'd like to prefix this by saying I'm sat smiling as I type) I honestly think John should have nowt public to say on the matter full stop. Just as a general rule like... but Kenny - I felt the same as he does at the end of the season - no Champions league, a good balance in the squad, and momentum. That on its own made you think we'd be strong, but I personally think the additions we've made leave us ideally placed for a long hard season-long slog. It's gonna be a massively interesting season and you'd expect Chelsea to be resurgent, and the two Manchester clubs to be very strong. But we could quite easily fuck their shit up with a couple of tweaks before the end of the transfer window.

We're gonna be in amongst it but it's gonna be the tightest race for years I reckon.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:

Home v park the bus teams

It's hard to answer this without inadvertently triggering an Aquilani-based radgie. I'll assume he doesn't leave the club just for debate's sake. I'll also assume Enrique's coming in and that everyone's gonna be fit. If it was *me* I'd go with a centre half pairing of Skrtel and Agger with Johnson and most likely Enrique bombing on, Lucas holding with Aquilani right of him and Adam left of him, and Gerrard and Downing wide of Suarez. The big man available off the bench should we need to blow the bloody doors off.

Shape? One or two back (mostly Skittles) and fluid movement ahead around Lucas's 'fulcrum'.

Away v most of the league

Deeper line, more defined shape and balance. So same throughout, but swap out Carragher in for Skrtel and Aquilani for Carroll. Lucas and Adam in a '2', Lucas generally a little deeper, Downing and Gerrard wide and Suarez tucking in behind Carroll.

Home or Away v bigger games

Some combination of the two, depending on form I reckon - option 1 for bullish, with a slightly more conservative balance, and option 2 for cagey and murder to play through, with power and pace on the counter off Carroll's (improving) hold up play.

Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

I'd hope that increasingly we'll impose our natural game, but I'd expect Kenny to tinker tactically and freshen the squad, so all that above is just speculative bollocks.

I've not even mentioned a few players who have equally strong claims to play in many's eyes. It just shows you how strong the squad is really.

[Danyaals Kop]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

No, I think Kenny knows the team better then John does. Kenny knows how he's going to utilize his players, how he's going to put faith and belief into his team. If it had been the other way around, then it would have been worrying but that's not the situation right now. Kenny knows us, the fans, and will do everything to try and deliver.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams

Well after Reina, I think it will all depend on Aurelio and whether he's injured or not. If he is, Kenny will play Kelly at RB with Carra and Agger in the Centre and Johnson at LB. Otherwise, Johnson at RB with Carra/Kelly at CB alongside Agger and Aurelio at LB. We will then have two holding midfielders, those being two being Adam and Lucas. Gerrard/Aquilani ahead of them but as RAM and Downing on the wing. Suarez dropping just behind Carroll to complete the front two. I expect Kenny to tell the team to press and close oppositions down a lot as well as making the most of the wings.

Away v most of the league
Pretty much the same as the tactic above, just that Kuyt will be given some sort of big role in away games.

Home or Away v bigger games
Kenny will play our strongest eleven but tell them to attack the big teams at home as much as they can, while in the big away matches, he'll probably tell them to hit them on the counter-attack after playing 'as many as he wants' minutes with fluid football and trying to create decent opportunities.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

As much respect I had for Rafa and the way he dealt with the game, I would prefer 'The Liverpool Way'. It used to be our way and it's time we bring it back.

[StevenLFC]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
 
No I don't think so. Kenny's the manager & has a right to set his own goals. We should be aiming for the title, although in fairness I'd be suprised if we won it this season. I'd say a Champions League place is very much achievable, for me it's a case of 4 from 5 and I'd say we're more than capable of being one of those four. Our squad is much stronger now, with full internationals struggling to get in the team and also a good group of young players eager to get in the side.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:

Home v park the bus teams
 
I'd go for the 4-2-3-1. Those who suggest dropping Lucas in these games are wrong in my opinion. He'll get us the ball back and will play the little 5 yard passes that keep the team ticking. I'd leave Kuyt out in these games as I'd like a bit more craft in the attacking third. The three behind Carroll are pretty much interchangable, and although Suarez is a striker, I think he'd be very difficult to mark floating between the lines.
 
Reina,
Johnson, Carragher, Agger, Aurelio (unless we sign a new left back)
Adam Lucas
Suarez Gerrard Downing
Carroll

Away v most of the league
 
Same as above for me. We should be going out to attack teams, although it's difficult to leave out quality players like Kuyt, Henderson & Meireles.
 
Home or Away v bigger games
I think Kuyt has to play in these games, and even though he cost so much I'd leave Carroll out (apart from games v Arsenal, I doubt they'd cope with him. I'd put Suarez up front & play Kuyt wide left.

Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
 
I was a big fan of Rafa Benitez, both the man and the manager. However, I do feel that he'd set up our team in order to nulify the threats of the opposition. Now don't get me wrong, this can be a positive in big games but I'm not sure it's a 'Liverpool thing to do' at home to poorer teams. I think Kenny will set up to go and beat teams but will look as the opposition strengths in the bigger games.

[Chakan]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

Not really I think it's the goal of any manager to set a target. Kenny has always been a lead from the front kind of person. Every manager wants to go out and win the league. For us a team and liverpool as a club we need someone who says "We are going to win or at least challenge for the title" Whether we do or not remains to be seen. That is why personally I will never fault Rafa for his we are going to finish 4th speech. It's a stick to beat him with but it gave many of us hope that we were indeed going to finish 4th. As to the chairman I think for the money he has spent and the people he has brought in challenging for 4th is a reasonable goal. Although I think if he had a quiet chat with Kenny he would change that to challenging for the title

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
In all these I am going to assume we have a fully fit squad to choose from

Parking the bus or the old Jose' defense, it's something he does well and its a tried and proven tactic for him. Relies on shutting down the team trying to play football and hitting them on the break
Personally I think we will set up with a slight variation on how Rafa had us playing 1-4-2-3-1.  I can't make up my mind between Aquilani and Gerrard I think they would do the same function. My gut says Gerrard starts with Aquilani coming on to change a game if nothing happens. We need a creative spark in midfield and both of them can provide it. Suarez will play just behind Carroll as he did in the Copa and look to turn defenders and pop up on either wing. Carroll will be the target man. Downing and Kuyt on the wings, with Agger and Aurelio our ball playing DF's with Johnson maurading down the wing and Carra to mop up (although i do believe he is getting turned far too easy these days)

My pick of players is Reina, Johnson, Carra, Agger, Aurelio , Lucas, Gerrard/Aquilani, Downing, Suarez, Kuyt, Carroll.

Away v most of the league

I would probably go with the same setup but maybe have Adam playing as he can definitely unlock the defense with his vision. My backline doesn't change. Suarez and Carroll still the main threats, possibly Henderson in place of Kuyt with his pace and skill.

Home or Away v bigger games

We need experience in the team with these games so i would definitely play Carra, Lucas and Gerrard. Suarez is a must. Can Carroll handle the bigger games? I don't know. Possibly would leave him on the bench and have Suarez as the main attacker with Gerrard slotting in behind him, and Aquilani partnering Lucas in the midfield.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
I'll bring up some more points later maybe.


As Kenny said i think it's on a game by game basis. The teams are ever changing , look at man city a couple of days ago the threat was Dzecko.Batetelli and maybe Tevez (if he stays) now you throw Aguero into the mix and you have a whole new threat to deal with. How do you react to the threat and do you shape your team in a different way. I don't think the formation is the main part of our game, for me what has hampered us over the years is the changing of personal through injuries and whatnot. We need a consistent run of games with the same or at least as close to the same players as we can get. Sure rotation comes into it, but we need a backline that know each others movements, we need to let partnerships form and progress. We need to see what fits best and stick to that. Sure there are going to be injuries or people will come and go, but for right now we need people to play with the same person next to them and get a team built, rather than changing the backline /midfield / forwards every game. Find what works and stick to it.

[Finn Solomon]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

It's an interesting dynamic, but I think Kenny's got the right of it here. The manager should motivate the players and if they have this mentality that 4th is good enough they might get a little complacent. It's just one of the many, many good changes from Roy "Destroy expectations before every match" Hodgson.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams

4-2-3-1 for me, we've got a great squad to choose from now and it's still the best formation that we can play. I'd go with a back four of Johnson, Skrtel, Agger and Aurelio is Enrique isn't coming in. I'd expect the young blood to get plenty of games though. Lucas is one of the first names on the team sheet for me, he should pair up with either Adam or Aquilani. I'd have Downing and Suarez on the wings with Gerrard bombing forward, and the Beast to lead the frontline. Lots of creativity, width and pace in that line-up.

Away v most of the league

Same again, with the possibility of Kuyt coming in.

Home or Away v bigger games

Like Chakan said experience is crucial, so the likes of Kuyt, Gerrard and Lucas must start, as well as Suarez. Carroll isn't an automatic pick yet for those must-win games in my book, although I fully expect that to change.

Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game...

The Rafa approach works best to infuriate the big opponents, particularly Baconface. I feel we should try to adapt to the big teams because we've got a squad who's used to that, while trying to dictate the play against the smaller teams, no matter if we're home or away.

[Hinesy]

Bump up.

[Hinesy]

So what line up would you expect Kenny to bring into the midfield for the Sunderland game? Should we be playing a Liverpool way and what is that these days?

[Buzby]

John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

In our position it is important that we don't lose site of the overall standards that we should be setting ourselves, even if we know it is unlikely that we are going to be able to meet them in the short term. Kenny has done nothing more than this in my eyes.

Irrespective of anything Kenny says, certain sections of the media will delight in informing us that every game we play from October onwards is a “must win” for out title challenge, until January when that mantra will be replaced by “their title challenge is now well and truly over!”

For every chairman that goes into the season with unrealistic hopes, there will no doubt be a managerial casualty over the coming months. It should go without saying that this is a destructive cycle that clubs should be attempting to avoid at all costs. John Henry coming out publicly in the way he has will serve us well, and help head off any silly “Dalglish Out” headlines when we aren't top of the table come the new year.

[Buzby]

Should we be playing a Liverpool way and what is that these days?

There is no “Liverpool way” in terms of playing style.

We sometimes hanker after one (anyone for pass and move?) perhaps because it represents a simple concept that is easily understood. To strip a tactical style down to such a simple cliché is completely unrealistic though. You don't have to be a tactical expert to realise we played differently under Shankly compared to Dalglish (mk. 1) compared to Rafa, compared to... well, you get the idea.

Indeed, your tactical approach needs to be determined by the resources you have available (ie players), and the threat posed by the opposition. Trying to shoe horn the skills and abilities your squad comprises off into some prefabricated box labelled “tradition” is never going to be a recipe for success.

[brownie 09]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
In short I dont think Kenny has said to much, nothing wrong with aiming high whats the point in coming to a season aiming to be nowhere 1st is 1st and 2nd is nowhere and I'll have to agree with Roy on John speaking out that he should perhaps leave that to Kenny from now on

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams

For me at home I could imagine a 4-3-3 formation with Johnson and Aurelio bombing forward and central 3 of Lucas Aqualani and Gerrard/Merieles and a front 3 off Downing Suarez and Carrol.

Lucas doing the dirty work and dictating the tempo and play and with your wingbacks and gerrard and aqualani providing the support for the front 3.

Away v most of the league

Pretty much the same tactics as we would employ at home with Adam playing instead of Aqualani as the teams will probably be coming at us a bit more so having to deeper players would probably be better for the teams balance.

Home or Away v bigger games

Bigger games I could imagine us to play a 4-3-3 when we are attacking teams but could see us reverting to a 4-4-2/4-5-1 when defending the ball.

The back four (injuries permitting) i would imagine to be very similar all season Johnson Carra agger Aurelio But in Midfield against the bigger teams I could imagine us playing Adam Lucas Gerrard/Spearing with a front 3 of Kuyt Suarez and Carroll. Kuyt could then drop into a 4-4-2 formation to help provide the defensive cover we would need and Carroll and Suarez providing the defensive work we would need from the front.

Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
Bit like what Finn said, tinker against the bigger teams for instance getting in the faces and ruffing Arsenal about would be a good tactic but wouldnt work so well against the more robust teams like United who would be better to sit back against and hit them on the counter like they usually do to teams.

But against the smaller teams make teams deal with us, let them worry about what were going to do.

[Filler.]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

I don't mind him making comments on his ambitions or otherwise of the team at all. They've actually got some meaning to them unlike the garbage that spilled from the vacant gobs of those other two clowns. I don't think he should be commenting on the future destination of players on twitter tho, directly or indirectly. Some praise now and again, fine, but it should be limited. I did like his 'Is Mata playing?' comment tho.

Kenny is absolutely right to forge an ambitious mentality within the squad tho and to aim high. He knows we all start from zero - setting the team up to fight for a nearly ran place would allow us to 'accept' a bad run of games as if this was something to be expected.

The balance is right here.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
Away v most of the league
Home or Away v bigger games
ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

The only certainty about this season is that, formation wise, it will be nothing like what we've seen for a good few years. None of the rigid zonal 4231 we had under Rafa, and none of the tripe we had under Roy. We'll see a huge variety of shapes both home and away, but all of them will attempt to ensure more bodies get into the box. I haven't got a problem with seeing us set up 451, or 532 at home at all - not if you have the right players, and I think we have.

But if there is going to be a shape used more often than not then it may, eventually, be based on 1 defensive midfielder with two slightly infront. Or rather, we'll have three central midfielders working more as as a fluid unit, alternating between 1 back/two forward, all 3 back, 2 back one forward etc - all looking out for eachother - pass and move.


Under Rafa, I never really understood why we bought Aquilani, he just didn't really work in that shape for me (nevermind the injury thing), but Kenny has shown us a few tantilising glimpses of how he could be used. I think it's important we retain him, or at least have a player like him in the middle. We know what a force Gerrard can be, but having a little bit of delicacy in those dangerous areas thru the middle, will partner the brilliance of Suarez and the more bullish aspects of Carroll/SG and Derek very nicely I think.

Go back a year or so, and tell yourself that next year our midfield would sometimes be occupied be Lucas and Spearing. Then tell yourself that it would be augmented by a big Scottish fella playing in the Championship. Go on, I dare you. The blooding of Spearing has been really encouraging, and tho those three won't form the main triangle in the middle, we've got some depth there now. We've also got width, and the signing of Enrique will only bolster that. We may not have the options out wide that Man Utd have, but Enrique would ensure that we'll be stronger than them in the full back areas. Where Man Utd are far stronger however, is in central defense, and we need to address this large question mark with a buy. We all know that.

With no trips across Europe this season, we can genuinly look to challenge on all 3 fronts left for us, and be able to refill our lungs (mainly with oxygen), and with young players like Coady, Sterling, Wisdom and Morgan coming thru, it could be a fun ride. We just need to get that LB and CB thing sorted.

[WavertreeRed]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

No. Kenny has lived through the most successful period of our history, he knows what it takes to win the league and has learnt from Sir Bob the way to manage a winning team. He also knows the fans, be honest, are any of you really happy when you hear the words 'top 4 minimum'? I know I'm not. Liverpool exists to win trophies, not to make a profit. First is first, second is nowhere. YNWA.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:

Home v park the bus teams

We need flair and creativity against this sort of team, Johnson and Aurelio/Enrique at fullback and Agger and Skrtel in the centre. We need Lucas to provide a bit of cover for our marauding defence and to keep the game going at a pace that suits us. Just in front of Lucas it has to be Gerrard (to give us that spark) and Adam (for the long passes and set piece threat). on the wings we need good attacking quality in the form of Suarez and Downing, both can beat a man, both can cross a ball, and both know how to score.  to top it all off and bully their defence I would have Andy Carroll up front. We then have impact players like Meireles, Kuyt, Henderson, Shelvey, Maxi, Aqua (if hes here), Spearing, Kelly, Carra  et al if we need to change our shape or injuries happen

                         Reina

Johnson----Agger----Skrtel----Aurelio/Enrique

                  ------Lucas-----
               
               Gerrard----Adams

Downing--------------------------Suarez

                  -----Carroll-----

Away v most of the league

We need a bit more focus and discipline away from home. I would keep the same team as above but replace one of the centre backs with Carra

Home or Away v bigger games

Again I would keep the 1st team but introduce Carra & Kuyt instead of either centreback and Downing

what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
I'll bring up some more points later maybe.

I think Kenny showed last season that he can change formations to suit opponents games. However that was with a squad that he'd inheritied from Hodgson. In my opinion we will see a much more settled Liverpool formation for the coming season, now that he has had a chance to bring his own players in. But don't be surprised to see him radically change the shape of the team for the odd game here and there, just to keep opponents guessing.

[Chakan]

So what line up would you expect Kenny to bring into the midfield for the Sunderland game? Should we be playing a Liverpool way and what is that these days?

I would expect Kenny to play something like we did against Valencia. I don't think Suarez will play , so 4-2-3-1.
I don't think there is a liverpool way right now. I do think Kenny is gravitating to the pass and move game, which has served us very well in the pass. We finally have a left side with Aurelio (assuming he stays fit) and Downing, so Kenny will make good use of them.

[BabuYagu]

John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
To be honest, I like the idea that Kenny is setting his sights for the very top. Kenny is as good a motivator as there is in the game and with this squad of players thinking Kenny believes in them to win the title, it may push them above and beyond their capabilities. I see no harm in Kenny doing this as he knows how to handle the media and they wouldn't dare try to attack him with this in the way they did with Rafa + "We will finish in the top 4".
However with John, I think he firmly believes in only making deals he can keep to. He has promised us we will win the title, and more than one at that. However all his reading of the statistics will tell him we need to be in the top 2 or 3 places before we can really challenge so that is the first step.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
I like the fact we signed our players first this summer. It left us free to cast an eye over the squad and deciding who we could afford to let go. Better than creating a hole in the team and then struggling to fill if you miss out on your first target. Then it's panic buy time. I fully expect to see another 4 or 5 senior players follow Jova out the door before the window slams shut in September. I bet a fair few of them are midfielders too!
Home v park the bus teams
I also believe there will be little difference in us, formation wise, between home and away games. Lucas is very important to us at the moment. The danger with playing the "Park the Bus" teams is they are always looking to catch you on the counter when your full backs are pushed too far forward and your midfielders have commited themselves to the attack as well. However in Lucas we have someone who reads the game superbly and protects us from the counter. He also has the engine to do so, much like Masch. I think the main difference will be who plays alongside him which will dictate how Liverpool play games. If it's Adam we are looking to exploit space against teams happy to play a high line and trying to press us quite high up the pitch. Adam can play quick first time through balls and regularly tore the top teams apart last season doing just this. However against park the bus teams I'd prefer to use the short quick passing and movement of Aquilani to unlock a tight defence. I also think we'll see Downing & Henderson on the flanks more often than not in these games as they are both capable of beating their marker, getting to the byline and cutting balls back into the box which is the biggest danger to a defence sitting deep. We could never capitalise on this as Torres & Ngog can be manhandled by most defences however Carroll is a different beast entirely, quite literally.

Away v most of the league
These are the games where I expect surprises from Kenny. Most teams have a particular way to play at home and don't deviate too much from it. So it's easier to tailor our formation and/or tactics for these games. I expect to see the Adam & Lucas combo more often than not here. I also expect them both to stay quite deep with Adam playing the Xabi role for us. I actually expect Adam to be the deeper of the two and so Lucas may even have a little freedom to go forward if he feels we are secure defensively these games. We've seen before Lucas can be a danger to teams when he's allowed to get forward. His technique has won us a few pens and he pops up on the scoresheet at least once a year. As central midfielders get older they do start scoring more goals. It applies to Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi and the vast majority of others you look at. I do think Lucas has goals in him however it's his composure that always let him down. 5-7 goals a season from him would be a massive bonus to us. Adam also offers a threat long range which we only have with Gerrard in the middle. Personally, I prefer Gerrard attacking teams as he terrifies teams. I would prefer him on the right or the point of a midfield triangle next year. I want our CM positions to be dominated by Lucas, Adam, Raul and Aquilani ... Spearing and Shelvey as backups. However I still expect one of Raul or Aquilani to leave, more likely the latter, unfortunately.

Home or Away v bigger games
These are the games I expect you will see us without Carroll at times. I think the movement of Kuyt and Suarez playing together in attack is a far more difficult challenge for the top defences to face. I know it's madness to suggest we spent £35m on a CF who won't play against the top teams but I believe he was an expensive fix for our achilles heel, the park the bus teams. I also think these are the games where you will see the closest to a Liverpool 4-4-2. It works as both Suarez and Kuyt are willing to drop deep and press the midfield for the ball. Against 3 CM's for example I think Kuyt would give the DM no time on the ball while our 2 CM's picked up the other two. Suarez will willingly chase down defenders all day long and make sure they have no time on the ball. Downing is a player who shines against top teams also so again I expect to see him more often than not.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game.
I hope I have already answered this in the above. However, in summary, I think at home Kenny will have a set way of playing and look to dominate and attack teams. We may be vulnerable to the counter here but I believe Lucas is as good as anybody to cover and stop counter attacks. Away from home we may also have a similar idea in mind but as a lot of teams have a set style & shape at home this is where we can set up to take advantage of our oppositions rigidness and we may see Kenny doing a few "Rafa's". I also think we'll play a lot more counter attacking football away from home to fully utilise Adam`s quick through balls from deep and expect to see Suarez in particular score a hatfull of goals from this. Against the big teams I think we'll see a mix and match of the two and we may even become a solid counter attacking team ourselves for these games, especially if we go a goal ahead.

[Mutton Geoff]

John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
I think idealist view is we go for top spot, however the realist view would agree with John's viewpoint. Now I understand where roy is coming from with regards to any utterences from John but I feel some of this is a culture issue.In the US owners of sports franchises have a much bigger media prominence than over here and are often interviewed almost as much as the coach in any sporting enterprise.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Initially for the first game would go for Lucas and Adam as CM and Henderson on the right and Downing on the left with Kuyt up front with Caroll, and Albert on the bench to switch with Henderson with Albert moving into the Kuyt position just behind Carroll and Kuyt moving out to the right. All of this though will go out of the window when Steve and Luis are available.
Home v park the bus teams
 As above but Albert in for Henderson from the start and Maxi on the bench to come on.
Away v most of the league
As above but with Spearing in for Adam for his tackling and breaking up the play ability
Home or Away v bigger games
I would go with Kuyt/Stevie on the right, Lucas , Adam, Downing up front Carroll and Albert/Luis when fit, my only problem is will Steve play on the right if not he would be CM  instead of Adam
ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
I think this might be a confidence issue we would like to be playing so well that we just play our game, but in some cases you have to look at who you are against, for example while i might think Carroll is the obvious choice up front against Arsenal, I think up against a team like Stoke a more mobile Luis- Dirk or Albert would be far more effective to break them down.

I'll bring up some more points later maybe.

[Mr Dilkington]

I think Kenny is right to aim for the league title, whilst we aren't one of the front runners in bookie windows and such, if things come together then there's no doubt in my mind we can get close. Despite the other teams adding some real quality players, i feel we've done the same, and i think we've added in a way that we now have loads of variety to choose from. One thing i will say, and it may not be wise, but if Suarez has a good season, then we're up there when the fat lady sings. The boy is that good.

On the tactics/first 11. I think an actual starting 11 will be as close to unimportant as you can get. I think Carroll will be used sparingly and you'll see Suarez playing as a false number 9 a lot of the time, whether that's the right thing to do with your 35 million pound striker i don't know, only time does i suppose. Carroll's showing against Los Che was promising though, he looked as hungry to chase down and unsettle the centre halfs as he ever has in a red shirt. I think Kenny has signed Henderson as a Barton type player, knowing how much big Andy profited from Barton's crosses. I would say both players are that halfway house between right winger and centre midfielder, namely an inside right type player, someone who's adept at tucking into those small squares and shaping crosses from a narrower position. Henderson layed on quite a few of those for Sunderland if memory serves, the one against Wigan in Gyan's debut match comes to mind. On the other side, i think Downing can do both roles, though it will come down to when/if we sign a left back. If we do manage to sign Enrique as i think we will, then i think you'll see the full backs pushed on ahead of the wide players a lot, maybe even used as decoys so that the wide players can get that type of cross in from deep.

My first choice 11 would be this: Reina; Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Adam, Lucas, Gerrard, Downing, Suarez, Carroll.

But i think we'll see a situation whereby Henderson gets a good 25+ games even though he may not be an automatic starter, Shelvey, Aqua (If he stays), Kelly, Downing, Maxi, Meireles are all on the same boat i reckon. Rotation and options are gonna be the name of the game.

On the matter of playing home games against the 'park the bus teams', i don't think it'll be as big a problem as it has been in the past. When we were going through Gerrard and Torres for those few years, our game was all based on space in behind and large doses of counter attacking football, now with big Andy and wee Luis, there's... yep you guessed it, more variety. As Roy pointed out, big Andy's hold up play is improving greatly and he'll be a huge weapon to have if teams turn up with a thick neck and a stubborn chin. Despite it sounding simple, the Downing-Carroll link will give us loads more scope in those kind of games. Suarez is really great at picking up second balls as well, and er... so is Adam and Stevie G.

I think the idea for away games should be the same as any other, to play a varied game with lots of options from the bench. The Fulham result/performance last year was great, but it's unrealistic to expect the same kind of outlook/outcome in every away game, so i'm a tad reluctant to prescribing to one way of playing. I know i keep saying it, but i really believe our strength is our ability to adapt, whether that be formations, style, tempo, pressing, shape. I think we saw enough of Kenny last year to understand that he's one of the most adaptable managers in the league. We saw 3-5-1-1 and variants of it, we saw 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 as well as 4-2-3-1 on occasions. The way we played against Fulham was brilliant, but i guarantee there will be games where we'll need Carroll up there battling for points like goldust. So yeah, a touch deeper and maybe more compact, but the idea should remain the same.

Against the big teams? We've done ok in recent years at that haven't we really? Plus, let other teams worry about big teams, cause we're one of 'em.

What shape will Kenny go for? I hope that isn't really an important question, *formation shormation*. Something like that anyway. 

[Filler.]

On the matter of playing home games against the 'park the bus teams', i don't think it'll be as big a problem as it has been in the past. When we were going through Gerrard and Torres for those few years, our game was all based on space in behind and large doses of counter attacking football

If we delete the time that Roy was in charge, we were in no way a counter attacking team - especially against 'park the bus teams' (?!?). It was about possession and suffocation. We didn't know how to counter attack - how could you in a team that only had Torres for pace and was defending corners? We didn't even look for Babel to do something on the counter, much to my frustration.

edit: we have seen a desire to counter under Kenny tho thankfully. Roy just idly told Reina to hump it long, but Kenny has a more cultured idea (suprise suprise). So we get more players in and around the box when attacking, and we also look to counter. Double plus good.

[Mr Dilkington]

If we delete the time that Roy was in charge, we were in no way a counter attacking team - especially against 'park the bus teams' (?!?). It was about possession and suffocation. We didn't know how to counter attack - how could you in a team that only had Torres for pace and was defending corners? We didn't even look for Babel to do something on the counter, much to my frustration.

I think there were times when we did mate, and i know a lot don't agree. I suppose it comes down to what your definition of counter attack is. I don't think we actively set out to counter attack over possesion, but i think we did it more than a lot of people would think. With Alonso sitting deep, if teams were pressing against us and we nicked it, so often the ball would immediately spring out towards Gerrard, and as soon as that happend Torres was on his bike. The turnover was so quick and devastating, for me that's what a counter attack is all about.

[iiqae]

i'm a huge fan of what royh recommends but for one caveat.

if you're going to play aquilani and lucas in a midfield three, i believe you're asking for more fluidity in movement. as such, i would play meireles instead of adam. this may irk some minds around these parts as they view meireles as lightweight and adam as a more 'stout' shall we say defensive option but i've always favored a pressing game based on intercepting and swarming the ball as opposed to someone who positionally is more disciplined and thus stifles attacks (if that makes sense).

although adam possesses more individual capability in terms of surveying and launching the ball, meireles would play perfectly into a team that wielded suarez, downing, gerrard, aquilani and lucas. the movement he provides would compliment aquilani's vision. i can recall a number of chances last season where his movement or his flick created an opportunity that was spurned.

on another note, i've noticed in preseason that adam has not been as commanding on the ball as his time at blackpool whereas w/ downing, he's been as assertive as he was w/ aston villa. henderson seems be even more willing to dribble and make positive movements versus his time w/ sunderland.

early days of course.

[DonkeyWan]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

I think this is the difference between those who are worried about money and those who are worried about prestige. For JWH, newly arrived at the club, he will be looking bottom line at costs, income streams etc. As of now his major concern is returning Liverpool to the CL and getting that enormous cash bonus that goes along with the prestige of CL football. From his perspective 1st to 4th  is incidental money wise, but the longer you remain outside the top 4 the harder it is to get back in and ultimately the more costly. From Kenny's perspective, he has to believe a tilt at the title is possible, anything else will discourage players from reaching their optimum. So he says 'we can win the league' while JWH says 'for me, getting back to CL is the most important thing, glory can come later'. Its the here-and-now attitude versus the longer-term-thinker. I don't think its necessary to over analyse those statements, we now know whats expected of Dalgish, anywhere from 1st to 4th is acceptable, outside of that will cause consternation, but that was always going to be the case anyway.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
Away v most of the league
Home or Away v bigger games

I, like everyone else, was surprised at the numerous midfielders brought in, particularly as we have so few games to play next year, its not really a squad issue. We have, arguably, 10 CMs vying for 2-3 places, though in reality that will be more like 6. I think Dalglish has brought in versatility and experience more than anything else. Perhaps one less midfielder and one more defender would have been better, but there you go. How they will be deployed is not, I believe, as tricky as it would appear. Dalglish so far has shown a tactical flexibility when it was possible (352 against Utd threw everyone) but a strategic commitment to high lines of pressing and aggressive attacking. My only concern to date is that with Carroll (and we saw it against Valencia) the game becomes stretched (as the backline hit the front man too quickly) and the expensively assembled midfield won't get up and support quick enough. Keep it on the deck and the likes of Aquilani, Adam and Gerrard will link attack, while Spearing, Lucas, Shelvey and possibly Adam (again) will hold. Out wide henderson has played on the right for Coventry and Aquilani for Roma, meaning they could be used flexibly across the midfield.

What i expect to see is flooded midfields away from home (since most minor clubs will do that against Liverpool anyway) while players with guile will be used at home to unpick packed defences. In the bigger games the old reliables will be wheeled out (particularly experienced players) for the big hurrah, while, younger, flightier types will be used at home against more limited opposition and the likes of Lucas, Spearing and Adam will be used away to toughen the midfield, with Aquilani as an impact sub in the second half. Its probably worth pointing out here that with so many versatile options available, the notion that a player must play a specialised position every game should now be considered redundant. To take a leaf from United's book, use your entire squad frequently and praise the whole when they win, rather than focus on or two players and suggest they are holding the squad together. If, by season's end, Spearing or Aquilani have only played a handful of minutes and we end up fourth, their contribution should not be dismissed.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..

Versatility will be the watchword for me. I think Dalglish likes to put certain players on the pitch for certain games, the role they are expected to play will be fluid. all the numbers really wont matter (442, 4231 etc.) what will be important will be aggressive and offensive styles of play.

[Hinesy]

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?


Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

[The 5th Benitle]

Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

It's not heresy. It wasn't heresy when Emlyn was sidelined for Alan Hansen.

Carra is still a superb last ditch, backs to the wall defender but if we are to play a high line then he becomes a weak link as he's turned easily. For me though it all depends on whether we buy another CB, as rumoured. If we do, I suspect Carra will play some games but not be a regular. If we don't, he'll play the majority, and most of the big games but we will start to see the Agger/Skrtel partnership develop and, injuries permitting, flourish.

[Terry de Niro]

It's not heresy. It wasn't heresy when Emlyn was sidelined for Alan Hansen.

Carra is still a superb last ditch, backs to the wall defender but if we are to play a high line then he becomes a weak link as he's turned easily. For me though it all depends on whether we buy another CB, as rumoured. If we do, I suspect Carra will play some games but not be a regular. If we don't, he'll play the majority, and most of the big games but we will start to see the Agger/Skrtel partnership develop and, injuries permitting, flourish.

I agree with you about Carra, and I probably would have agreed with you on the Agger/Skrtel partnership, a couple of years ago. Not so sure about that one now.
I know we haven't seen that partnership a lot due to injuries or whatever, I just think if you play Agger then we are going to need someone who is like minded as him alongside him.
Where we are going to get that type of player I don't know?

[Filler.]

I think there were times when we did mate, and i know a lot don't agree.

There's a difference between winning the ball in midfield and quickly getting the ball in between defenders for Torres to run on to for me. It worked great for a number of goals yes, it was a strength, and we won't be seeing the same with Carroll in the number 9 shirt.

But countering means leaving players out whilst under pressure - not bringing everyone back to make things difficult. We hardly did that. Two of them at least. We've got a great distributing goalkeeper but we didn't use it. We've already seen us counter under Kenny - United have countered en masse for years and it's about time we did too.

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?


Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

For league games I'd imagine that we will use a core of 16 or so players with only slight alterations. The rest will play a big part but I too think that there will be a reliable core in there. Lucas, Adam, Gerrard and hopefully Aquilani.

As for Carra, we need a new Centre Back, it's as simple as that.

[John C]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?
No, Kenny has his own firm ambitions proven throughout his entire carer so it would be alien for Kenny want to strive for anything less. Of course in typical Kenny style he will manage expectations during the season and he probably knows we won’t win it, but where else is he going to start – what other target does a winner give himself?

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
Kenny seems to have set his stall on a 4-2-3-1 rather than a 4-4-2, but the alternative for such home games is 4-1-4-1.  We all know Lucas is ideal to sit while, the FB’s and the 5 break the opposition down
What’s more interesting is which games Kenny feels he won’t need to start Carroll for.

Away v most of the league
4-2-3-1 : We have Lucas and Adam who are not only the ideal partnership, Lucas is another year mature and Adam is proven PL quality and knows his way around the game now, width will be provided by the FB’s. Even our young back-up FB’s have the quality to fill in as defenders and supply the same service from wide areas.

Home or Away v bigger games
ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
It would be foolish for anyone to suggest that Kenny will set a fixed formation like 4231 as I’ve mentioned because he & Steve are strategists. They’ll think the game through ahead of kick-off just as you’ve seen them converse during every game last year – always together when they excluded Sammy from key decisions.
 
In the big matches and in the unexpected tough matches home & away, we will need the formation to be fluid. Even pre-season I’ve seen the team morph from 4-2-3-1 in to 4-3-3. This is achieved by having the key players to make it work and in 6 short months we’ve acquired sufficient additional players to make it work.
In any event, its essential that Carroll doesn’t get isolated and the 3 behind him have got to busy themselves about him.

So what line up would you expect Kenny to bring into the midfield for the Sunderland game? Should we be playing a Liverpool way and what is that these days?
Something tells me Henderson will start, and I’m stuck between the team I want and the team I think Kenny will play as I don’t see him benching Dirk for the first game and I don’t expect Suarez to start now , anyway, pending fitness……
Reina
Kelly Carra Agger Johnson
Lucas Adam
Kuyt Aquilani Downing
Carroll
Future games will see SG in for Albert, Jordan in for Dirk, Enrique in for Kelly and a swap of positions (wages permitting), leaving a quality bench including Raul.
Overall I’d expect to se a far more dynamic, mobile team and only the players that can produce that will get the nod.
I expect Insua to be sold and Shelvey to go on loan. There’s plenty of games for everyone so Spearing will be needed.

[stoopid yank]

Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

[John C]

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?

I think Kenny knows you can't use the same starting 11 every week, but he won't rotate, he'll preserve. And not necessarily achieved by seamless tweaks.

Lucas Adam
Kuyt Aquillania Downing (4231)

could become .......
Gerrard Lucas Adam
v             v           v
Henderson Suarez Downing (433)

or

Henderson Lucas Gerrard Downing (422)

Don't forget Raul and Maxi (do forget Cole) and you've got innumerable combinations.

[Mutton Geoff]

we have probably the best options in midfield that we have had for seasons, you could say Kenny has built a midfield for all seasons!, We have mobile players, we have accurate passers, we have dare i say width on the left and right now, and up front we can go Carroll with Kuyt, Stevie or Luis in the hole, we can go Kuyt and Luis , we can go for a three of Luis, Carroll, Kuyt! We can bring the likes of Albert, Raul, Jordan, Maxi, and for now Joe off the bench to change things going forward or we can bring on Spearing or Jonjo to add a bit of stability and maybe shore up a game if we need to.

As for Carra i think if we buy a decent CB the writing must be on the wall for him, we need to slowly fade him out similar to Sami have him on the bench to bring on as a excellent replacement who we can trust to do a job for us. He is getting older and we need to be perhaps a little ruthless in the coming season, it is not that Carra is a bad defender far from it but his diminishing mobility will be a factor in us having a high defence in some games!
There should be no 'he's a local sentiment' with this, the team performance and balance must come first.

[caze]

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?


Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

Quite simply we have to rotate if we're to achieve anything this season, there is a reason all of the top clubs in word do so, and Kenny is no fool.

Gerrard in particular will need to be handled carefully this season, I think he should be rested for a quite a few of the easier-on-paper home games, we've got the squad depth now to do that (assuming Aquilani stays, or we make another top creative signing if he doesn't), and he should barely play the early rounds of the cups.

There'll have to be some degree of rotation with the rest of the midfielders too simply because there's too many of them (with the exception of Lucas, who I see starting every league game if fit).

Up front and at the back I forsee less rotation, aside from for the cup games; though there probably will be a certain amount required, with even Andy spending some time on the bench from time to time (I think it may make sense against certain park-the-bus teams).

[Gnurglan]

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?


Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

Kenny may be old school, but I'm certain he will rotate. Rotation is done for so many reasons. It's to prepare for injuries/bans (and get players involved before those things happen), it's to get players back from injuries, it's due to players being in/off form, it's to give players a rest, to play in a different way etc. One thing which is often forgotten is nowadays teams are allowed to make three subs. It allows for bigger squads and greater tactical variation. If we make it work well, we will hardly notice the changes. It will be 2-3 changes from one game to another.

IMO we should rotate even the CBs and Carra is a perfect example. He's in his last season or two. We need to prepare for his exit. He should sit out a game here and there. If he plays 2 games out of 3, he'll still be heavily involved. Ideally, we should then give those other games to a promising young player.

[Red Genius]

John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?


No, i don't think he has. He's setting the standard and where all Liverpool teams should be aiming for come May, of course failing reaching the dizzying heights of 1st means its quite likely we'll end up in the top 4 if our goal and conviction is first place.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:


I think we'll see slight variations in formation and personnel depending on the team, but the approach will be centered around attacking pass and move football, we have lots of options now so i think it will be difficult to select our best 11 - because i think it will develop as the season progresses.

Home v park the bus teams

Back four and Lucas, those infront will attack and interchange, we will certainly go at teams who part the bus and either knock it about around them or batter the door down with Carroll.

Away v most of the league

Much like the above, i think the Fulham game is a great indicator of how Kenny wants to approach these games, get at the from the off - quick passes incisive movement and try to get an early goal to get us on our way.

Home or Away v bigger games

Usually poor games to watch, the emphasis will be on winning the game, however i reckon with the players assembled over the summer we are far better armed with pick up points in these closer encounters from set pieces, which could prove vital.

ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them? Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game.

I'm not sure the answer will be as black or white as the question above, we'll certainly have a way of playing which we will see week in week out, moving the ball quickly and finding space to receive, we'll see some great movement for sure, but i also think for certain opposition there will be a focus on their weaknesses, Kenny is too shrewd to totally ignore the opposition, although he will definately be getting his team to focus on what they should be doing, and rightly so.

[DonkeyWan]

we have probably the best options in midfield that we have had for seasons, you could say Kenny has built a midfield for all seasons!, We have mobile players, we have accurate passers, we have dare i say width on the left and right now, and up front we can go Carroll with Kuyt, Stevie or Luis in the hole, we can go Kuyt and Luis , we can go for a three of Luis, Carroll, Kuyt! We can bring the likes of Albert, Raul, Jordan, Maxi, and for now Joe off the bench to change things going forward or we can bring on Spearing or Jonjo to add a bit of stability and maybe shore up a game if we need to.

OK. Let's start to discuss the midfield thoughts rather than answer the questions I've posted...
Donkeywan says Kenny has bought in versatility, which implies, if true, that he's one for rotation. Yet I've always imagined Kenny's old school with knowing his best starting 11 for most games... What's Steve Clark's influence in this, and do we think Kenny will rotate then?


Also what about the unmentionable, (but I'll mention it): Royhendo talks about bringing Carra in for away games, in for Skrtel, is it time to let Carra out to pasture more? Is that heresy?

Kevin McCarra in the Guardian made the interesting point that he felt the Liverpool midfield looked weak.  His reasoning I quote here

"Despite a glut of options provided by the recruitment of £20m Jordan Henderson and £7m Charlie Adam, the midfield lacks quality and there should be disquiet if Steven Gerrard, at 31, is still the main source of dynamism."

Knee-jerk is to say 'shut up Guardian' but there is an element of truth there. While we have a lot of options none are truly outstanding, which is why I suggested that Dalglish had gone for versatility over star players (of course lack of CL also determined what we could bring in).

What's Clarke's influence? Well, if you look at Chelsea and see how dominant a midfield they had, but the manner in which they used players like Robben and Duff as gamebreakers while having Drogba up front on his own, then I think that you can see the fingerprints of Clarke all over it. A glut of young midfielders are now at the club and both Clarke and Dalglish must be thinking of how to train them in as replacements while utilising the existing experienced players (like Raul, Lucas, Aquilani, Gerrard) to bridge the gap between the now and the future. Which is why the purchase of Adam is the only signing that doesn't really make sense to me. Who is he replacing, what is his role, how does he fit into the squad? For all the rest I can envisage a role in the squad, but not Adam, he only makes sense if Aquilani was on his way out and even then Raul and Gerrard would be there. I can only imagine he's there because Kenny fancied the idea of a reasonably cheap, skillful midfielder that could come in and fill a gap or provide extra from the bench.

That would mean that yes, rotation is going to be used and frequently, just like last year. The problem is, with fewer games (in the 40s) keeping players happy and in form will be even trickier than usual.

Letting Carra out to pasture? Maybe, he's slloooow these days, but Agger and Skrtel have never convinced together, Carra is a much better organiser of the back four. Soto is even slower and has a pony tail, which means that perhaps Kelly will be deployed more frequently in the middle, but I doubt Carra will be phased out that much.. though if a few more transfers out occur, perhaps we will see the acquisition of one more central defender.

[Matt8Pie]

Kenny may be old school, but I'm certain he will rotate. Rotation is done for so many reasons. It's to prepare for injuries/bans (and get players involved before those things happen), it's to get players back from injuries, it's due to players being in/off form, it's to give players a rest, to play in a different way etc. One thing which is often forgotten is nowadays teams are allowed to make three subs. It allows for bigger squads and greater tactical variation. If we make it work well, we will hardly notice the changes. It will be 2-3 changes from one game to another.

IMO we should rotate even the CBs and Carra is a perfect example. He's in his last season or two. We need to prepare for his exit. He should sit out a game here and there. If he plays 2 games out of 3, he'll still be heavily involved. Ideally, we should then give those other games to a promising young player.

Hard to disagree with you there.

With all these midfield options we now have a blessing which we haven't had in a long time which is squad depth (obviously) and that we don't have to rely on a starting XI. When Kenny first came in we had most of our team fit and everybody was left guessing what the team would be for the next game. We played quite attacking against Stoke and the following week set up with 5 defenders against Chelsea.

The way I see it, and it's where the teams that have been finishing above us have had that edge on us in recent seasons, is that we can afford to chop and change the team catered for who our opposition is going to be. I agree with the point you made about Carragher where he should sit out sometimes but I wouldn't do it as often as people think. Defence is the one area where we need consistency and stability which Carragher provides. Up until last season, it's hard to remember a time where he missed out on a big run of games through injury. He is still the lifeblood of the team and organises the defence well. However, in games where we can afford to go for the kill, particularly at home against some of the promoted teams, we should be able to afford to rest him for the game. I don't mean for the sake of resting him to keep him fitbecause I don't think that will be much of an issue both through his injury record and that we have fewer games to play this season, but it would mean we would be able to set up with a more attacking formation to kill teams off. This is something which would boost both the team and the fans. 

Carragher is one example of this. Someone like Agger we should be more careful with given his injury record but at the moment, Carragher is our most reliable defender in terms of fitness. His performances under Kenny have been much better and I don't think it would do us as big a favour as most would think by changing him. He's always there for the big games for a reason and it should remain like that.

Going back to what Hinesy said and the rotation in midfield, I think we'll see a pretty familiar lineup for most of the games and what we would expect to see with our more dependable midfielders featuring such as Kuyt and Lucas. Downing should start most games in my opinion because he is what we've lacked in recent years but I see him as the one who will be subbed off more than others to completely change the game's dynamic to either throw a team off if we're dominating or to change the approach if we're struggling to find a breakthrough.

Our midfield options are plentiful, no doubt, but I think Kenny and Clarke will be switching it depending on what the opposition team's weakness is. For all my defending of Aquilani, if we are going to be up against a strong midfield where there are gonna be a lot of battles like in the Community Shield match yesterday, I wouldn't throw Aquilani in there. That being said, a team that will come to Anfield and park the bus might be a game more suited to Aquilani because his speed of distribution, range of passing, movement, accuracy and vision will be better served than someone like Carroll perhaps who is more suited to a battle of possession. I know the two play different positions, but hopefully you can see my point.

With the midfield rotation, we'll not only have a better plan B should things not be going our way after 55-60 minutes, but it also gives us the advantage of the opposition team not knowing what team we're gonna put so that can't plan for the game as effectively. The thing I've noticed over the past couple of seasons is that we've had one striking option in Torres and teams have found out better ways to neutralise him (putting aside the arguments of whether he couldn't be arsed for a moment...) and we've had no decent back up plans to break teams down. Now, should we be facing a similar situation, the most relevant scenario I can think of is 0-0 at home with a Fulham or Hull, we have those options where we could pull Kuyt off and switching downing to the right, bring Maxi on or switch Meireles for Aquilani. We could even take off Carroll, stick Kuyt up front and bolster up the midfield for a better game of passing.

All I know is that the situation looks a lot more positive than it has in recent seasons.

[Red Genius]

mmmm interesting point about the midfielders Donkey, however i do think for what he does and his effectiveness at doing it puts Lucas makes him a 'star player'. What Adam brings isn't just his open play, so these tools improve the team in other areas. Bearing in mind that United have succeeded with what could be considered a weak central midfield for a few years now whilst still winning trophies. I don't believe our midfield will be of any concern, i think we have options and varying degrees of creativity, work ethic and qualities.

Wide areas (despite the introduction of Downing) are still a concern when rotating for me and it'll be interesting to see how Kenny juggles his pack should Downing not be available or be selected to play, as i'd imagine an inclusion of Maxi and Kuyt working with Suarez may be chosen, we shall see.

[Gobias Industries]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

I certainly don't think so. Kenny knows that the lifeblood of this club is not trying to hit 4th spot. It's winning. We'll all take 4th by the end of the season. But no one understands us like Kenny. If we ever go into a season with all the fans thinking "We've absolutely no chance", then what's the point any more? Aim for the stars. You might not get all the way there, but you'll go far. Roy Hodgson spent the off season last year talking about how little we could accomplish. How little you could expect from Liverpool FC that year. Look at what that did to us. Sure it wasn't the only problem, but an atmosphere of confidence about the place is the only way we can ever succeed. Kenny knows exactly what he is doing. Once again, he is trying to make the players and the fans feel ten feet tall.

Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams

4 at the back. If fit, Johnson, Carra, Agger, Aurelio (or Enrique). Lucas in the holding role. Another CM playing ahead of him with license to attack. Probably Stevie. Suarez, Downing, Aquilani across the front. They can switch positions if the play dictates it. But they would all be central attacking midfielders. Toss up between Carroll and Kuyt up top. I think probably Kuyt as he can harry the defenders and open up space in the middle for Suarez or Aquilani, or even an advancing Gerrard to get into. But equally Carroll could play there because the likes of Kuyt and Downing will feed him well, whether from the wing or not.

Away v most of the league

4 at the back. Same as above. Lucas and Adam holding. Stevie behind Carrol. Downing out wide whipping in crosses for Carroll and Stevie to attack. Suarez on the other side (right), cutting in and running at defenders.

Home or Away v bigger games

4 at the back. Same as above above. Lucas and Gerrard in the middle. Kuyt and Downing on the wings. Carroll up top. Suarez free role behind him.

[Refo]

So, a couple of questions to kick us off, John says a Champions League spot is a good aiming place whilst Kenny says there's nothing wrong with aiming for the title. Normally its the other way round with the chairman boasting of success and the manager bringing it back down to earth.... Has the normally taciturn Kenny said too much?

When Roy was managing us last year, he severely underestimated the worth of our squad, and our players responded in kind. He made the players believe that we had the quality of a midtable side, and so we played like one. Then Kenny came in and made even our not-so-great players believe they were world beaters. Suddenly Jay Spearing looked like Mascherano and Maxi was scoring 7 in 3 games. Believing that we can win the title, as far as I'm concerned is the liverpool way, and fuck off to the Manc fans who bait us for being delusion, it really doesn't matter.

On the flipside, John Henry's willingness to accept that Rome isn't built in a day is fantastic as well. The last thing we want is some kind of Real Madrid scenario where our managers our being axed despite great work.


Second point I'd like to hear you tacticians talk about is how Kenny's going to play Reina and then 10 in midfield given the amount of midfielders we have. Who and how would you play in these situations:
Home v park the bus teams
Away v most of the league
Home or Away v bigger games
ie what shape is Kenny going to aim for and how would you play them?


I think we will have two main strategies next season, I'll call them the battering ram and the lock pick.

Battering ram:

                       Reina
Kelly    Carra    Agger   Enrique (I'm going to assume he's coming, otherwise switch him for Johnson at left back.)

          Lucas   Adam
           
              Gerrard     
                                     
  Suarez (free role)      Downing(wide role)
               
               Carroll


I think this strategy will be used quite often against bigger teams and away from home against very physical sides. There will be an emphasis on getting the ball wide, stretching play, set pieces and rapid counter attacks. Lucas and Adam will hold and distribute while Gerrard pushes forward beyond the attackers, Suarez will be deployed officially on the wings, but will be given a free role, and will often find himself in front of Carroll, waiting for defense splitting through balls from Lucas, Adam and Gerrard. Downing will provide the outlet on the wings and provide width, and Caroll with kcik the shit out of whatever shithouse defender is deployed against him and probably score loads.

Lock pick:

                         Reina

Johnson     Carra     Agger     Enrique

                       Lucas

               Gerrard   Aquilani

        Suarez       Kuyt      Maxi


I think we may see something like this at home quite often. If we keep him (which I'm starting to think we might) Aquilani can be a brilliant player for us, but I think we saw in the Valencia game that he needs runners in front of him to really show his quality, and this kind of formation would make him shine. Our outside defenders would be bombing forward often and our front line will be buzzing and sneaking around opening up space for Gerrard, and even Agger to surge forward behind them drawing fouls and causing havoc, while Lucas drops into defense or supports the forwards based on the situation.


Would you stick to a 'We're Liverpool and we play like this, YOU adapt your team" or the more Rafa-like, adjust to every game..
I'll bring up some more points later maybe.


We will change our formations and strategies often, except unlike Rafa, who's different teams were generally pretty rigid, I think we will play with more fluidity in attack, and probably concede more goals than we did under Rafa.

[Refo]

So what line up would you expect Kenny to bring into the midfield for the Sunderland game? Should we be playing a Liverpool way and what is that these days?

for Sunderland:

                Reina
Kelly    Carra Agger   Aurelio
         
            Lucas      Adam
             
Kuyt      Henderson       Downing
               
                Carroll


I think we'll go for something like this with Suarez coming off the bench later if needed. I also assumed Johnson is injured for this one. Hopefully Henderson can have a stormer against his former club.

As for a liverpool way style of playing, I think the liverpool way is more about belief and a winning mentality than any specific style of play. We will probably see loads of different tactics and playing styles under Kenny and as long as they are successful I don't think we'll have any right to criticize them.