Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[royhendo]

oh hold on - i just noticed your link mate! your post the tipping point, that's right!

tremendous post that.

i was talking about the gladwell book in the post above, sorry...

[royhendo]

oh and by the way, the concept of 'tweening' is from "Rule Breakers, Rule Makers".

that book's about companies who grow from 'level 1' by doing things in new ways that usurp the existing establishment (what they call 'rule breaking' cos they don't follow everyone else's rules). they get big, grow successful, and eventually the big hitters in their industry have to stand up and take notice of them.

gradually they start trying to blow the little company out of the water, and that's when the company starts 'tweening', cos there's no guarantee they'll make it through the difficult stage and through to the other side of dominance (what they call rule making - now everybody copies their new way of doing things and they can bully everyone else).

i think that's similar to the transition to level 3, because it requires bravery and commitment from the financial backers when things are shaky to make it through to the other side. but if you have visionary leadership and smart people working on your strategy, you have a chance.

if you don't make it, you do 'the tweener death rattle'. hopefully we'll never discover what that equates to in footballing terms.

[hesbighesred]

Not sure I agree with that... I know when we're at the ground we like to sing about a team of Carraghers... but that would just not work! Kuyt is like Carra- great grafter, has game intelligence... but lacks in the technical side of things- at least relative to his team mates. I believe there's an optimum balance of both types of players. Of course, you'll get top players who can do BOTH things- Gerrard, Torres, Agger, Rooney, Tevez etc... but I do think that players like Deco, Berbatov, Fabregas

Just to pick up on this point, I totally agree a team of Carragher's wouldn't work. I'll go even further and say that Carra, even if he were younger, looks like a potential weak link in the future evolution of this team. From what I've seen of Skrtel so far, he matches or betters Carra's physical attributes, yet has a massive level of skill too, he is absolutely capable of being another playmaker, and some of his driving runs and long balls last season showed this. He actually reminds of a confident Sissoko when he comes forward, if he adds a little composure when he gets up the pitch he can be very dangerous. What sets Carra apart at the moment though is that he's our Baresi...not technically our best defender, but without doubt an absolute master in terms of leading and organising the back 4. If/when one of Skrtel/Agger show that same leadership, Carra will be redundant as a nailed on starter. I think this might happen towards the end of next season.

The balance issue is very interesting, and a good comparison from Saachi is when he talks about the Galactico's real, I'm paraphrasing here but he basically asks the question of whether football is about adding x good defenders to y good attackers, IE getting the best specialists, or if it's about 11 people playing truly as a team.

In that sense I think that Deco and Fabregas are not the same as Berbatov. If I felt the first two were motivated I'd have them in my team in a shot, with Berbatov however he strikes me as a player who you have to adapt to. He won't really defend, he won't really play where you tell him to, you have to adapt your game to him. Deco and Fabregas however are superb individual talents who still understand the need for positional and defensive discipline. Hell, neither is a great tackler, but you'll never see them, hands on hips, just waiting for the ball to arrive the way that Berbatov sometimes does.

For me this relates to Babel...in many ways perhaps not a typical Rafa signing...he certainly isn't much of a defender. However, it comes across in every interview he does, and in so many stories from the past, that he is incredibly focussed on improving his game in every way. He can't win the ball back brilliantly himself, but because he's prepared to learn the team game and put in the effort to track back etc he doesn't harm our defensive solidity. Fabregas and a happy Deco would do the same. Berbatov, I feel, would mostly be a passenger.

Re the playmakers thing.

Personally I interpreted it not in the sense of having 11 Pirlo's or 11 Xavi's on the pitch. The playmaker in this sense could perhaps be described like this:

When on the ball, is this player:
a) Comfortable in receiving and passing the ball?
b) Able to carry the ball forward?
c) Able to pick out a dangerous pass when available?
d) Able to assess the situation around him, and make the right decisions/improvisations based on that?

To put it another way, is the player on the ball the kind who has good ideas and can carry them out, with the crucial aspect that they are based on planning as well as instinct? Note as well that this isn't just a skill issue, mentality is just as important. I'm thinking for example of Tony Adams under Wenger. He'd never struck me as a skillful player, but he showed in that year or two that he was enough of a footballer to step out of his role and make something happen.

If that's the case then I would say Skrtel, Benayoun, possibly Dossena and, at times, Arbeloa, Hyppia and Voronin as well as a huge proportion of the youngsters at the club all show signs of this.

I was thinking today that it's actually really telling how much players like Kuyt and Carra stand out in the context of today's Liverpool team. Thinking back to Houllier's days, I never remember Carra looking hugely out of place in a technical sense. Not great, but not the worst by any means. Kuyt in that team would have looked almost cultured. Hyppia's distribution is no worse today than it was back then. Back then his technique was exemplarary, better than some of the midfielders and strikers never mind the rest of the back four. These days you don't even notice that he has decent distribution and surprising imagination for a defender of his Ilk.*

*At least that's how I remember it, I could be waaay off

[royhendo]

great points again - i'm wracking my brains but remember thinking litmanen and mcallister stood out at that time in technical terms...

i agree about the concept of 11 playmakers not meaning 11 pirlos or xavis - just that each player is flexible enough and technically adept enough to make team efficient choices that do the maximum within the tactical framework to hurt the opposing team.

the way wilson dealt with it in his book was nice - the idea that while an old-school playmaker like a riquelme is like an old fashioned classical artist, painting beautiful landscapes and themes that people 'get' instantly, the new breed of playmaker is capable of expressing craft and beauty within an abstract framework that not everyone understands. so everyone can see at a glance that turner's hay wain is a lovely landscape, but not everybody will instantly get picasso's guernica, because there's a lot of abstract stuff in there at levels we can't see unless we're schooled in them.

anyway, that's pretentious bollocks probably!

the points you make about mastery of the martial arts (doing the katas repetitively leads the master to truly improvise without having to think about the things that let him express himself) - they're spot on in all walks of life I think.

and the idea of the coach as a conductor of an orchestra is great too.

interesting to see the quaresma storm blow up on the summer transfer forum this morning - i'd suspect most folk there haven't spent much time on this thread!

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226985.0

[JP-65]

great points again - i'm wracking my brains but remember thinking litmanen and mcallister stood out at that time in technical terms...

i agree about the concept of 11 playmakers not meaning 11 pirlos or xavis - just that each player is flexible enough and technically adept enough to make team efficient choices that do the maximum within the tactical framework to hurt the opposing team.

the way wilson dealt with it in his book was nice - the idea that while an old-school playmaker like a riquelme is like an old fashioned classical artist, painting beautiful landscapes and themes that people 'get' instantly, the new breed of playmaker is capable of expressing craft and beauty within an abstract framework that not everyone understands. so everyone can see at a glance that turner's hay wain is a lovely landscape, but not everybody will instantly get picasso's guernica, because there's a lot of abstract stuff in there at levels we can't see unless we're schooled in them.

anyway, that's pretentious bollocks probably!

the points you make about mastery of the martial arts (doing the katas repetitively leads the master to truly improvise without having to think about the things that let him express himself) - they're spot on in all walks of life I think.

and the idea of the coach as a conductor of an orchestra is great too.

interesting to see the quaresma storm blow up on the summer transfer forum this morning - i'd suspect most folk there haven't spent much time on this thread!

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226985.0

Roy, I haven't contributed anything to this thread as I'm not knowledgeable enough, but it's been highly educational for me, and I'd say, one of the best threads ever on this forum.

As a further on conductors and orchestra's, the observation of how this works was the genesis for "flattening" organizational structures.  Wider spans of control with reduced layers of management, individual contributors with skills, training, responsibility, authority and accountability under minimal line management.

How high quality ice hockey teams operate effectively is also an appropriate comparison, with speed of movement, interchangeability, team flexibility, mixing of lines, changes on the fly being elements that come into play.

Possibly basketball as well, with such elements as it's structured plays on the move, overloading of zones with quick switches to isolated man in open space, picks to give space, yet quick to take the break if it's on.

I believe I read at one point that Rafa had studied some North American sports in order to obtain fresh ideas and concepts.

[royhendo]

superb to see you drop by in here JP-65 - you're one of my biggest heros on here it has to be said and if you feel you've learned anything here it pales into insignificance compared with what people have learned from you on the site.

anyway - re Rafa's open-mindedness in terms of lessons from other sports - that's definitely true, and i think he actually acted as a basketball coach at one stage. he ran a commercial gym and part of that was coaching in other sports - he's definitely a student of all games in that respect and it'd be interesting to look into that aspect in more depth to be honest.

it's probably true of all coaches who look to gain an 'edge' - they'll look outside the box and wrok in innovative ways to see if they'll improve performance. he certainly seems well connected with academia and the long-term courting of eduardo macia, and more recently gonzalo rodriguez, give little snippets of the synergies they see with other sports.

as fans i really wish we could all appreciate the agricultural metaphor in all this - you plant a seed, and wait two seasons (autumn and winter) before you even see a sprouting shoot. most on here get antsy and impatient waiting for the shoots to sprout and call for the field to be ploughed again with everything starting from square one. it's only a few wiser bods who know to wait for the shoot to sprout. and it's even fewer wise bods who know that you don't uproot the tender shoot in its infancy - you let it mature and grow in strength until it bears seeds of its own - then you reap the harvest and prime the process for the next cycle to begin.

that's how long-term sustainable development beds in, and that's why a full cycle's needed before we get jumpy.

anyway, sorry - i've gone off topic again.

the point on the move to flatter management structures is fascinating JP - I know you enjoyed a hugely successful career within a world-class 'management framework' at GE - do you think the frameworks described here from the likes of Rinus Michels and Arrigo Sacchi (and as we're suggesting, Rafa) are, in a way, analogous to the framework set down by Jack Welch at GE?

From an interested outsider's point of view, when you read about the changes he made, it encouraged people to reach certain 'team efficient' minimum standards that were non-negotiable, and within that framework, people had unfettered autonomy to work in innovative, entrepreneurial ways.

Is that fair?

Are these principles more widely descriptive of management best practice?

(sorry for those of you who find that kind of sh_t boring!)

[BazC]

oh hold on - i just noticed your link mate! your post the tipping point, that's right!

tremendous post that.

i was talking about the gladwell book in the post above, sorry...

 

hesbighesred; good points. And I don't think Saachi meant 11 Pirlo/Decos/etc either but what you said. In fact, players who fit in with the Liverpool pass and move ideal- quick thinking; able to see and pick the pass quickly, but playing it simple and not always forcing it. In fact, I swear I read somewhere that Saachi based his management styles and ideals on Liverpool's pass and move football. And now Rafa's basing it on Saachi. Brilliant.

Royhendo- also surprising to see these Quaresma links... and when we're linked with players like this (and buy players like Babel) I'm inclined to think of the 'balance' between different abilities in the squad rather than total footballers. I guess what Rafa may be doing is buying a range of abilities but moulding them so as they add the parts to their game that they miss. Hence Babel's defensive duties... and when Rafa came here he commented on how he thought Gerrard needed to improve on his tactical game (which I still think he can improve on sometimes- as I think he still tries to force the issue a bit too much when the game gets tough- at times like that I'd like to see greater control and discipline in possession).

Roy, I haven't contributed anything to this thread as I'm not knowledgeable enough, but it's been highly educational for me, and I'd say, one of the best threads ever on this forum.

As a further on conductors and orchestra's, the observation of how this works was the genesis for "flattening" organizational structures.  Wider spans of control with reduced layers of management, individual contributors with skills, training, responsibility, authority and accountability under minimal line management.

How high quality ice hockey teams operate effectively is also an appropriate comparison, with speed of movement, interchangeability, team flexibility, mixing of lines, changes on the fly being elements that come into play.

Possibly basketball as well, with such elements as it's structured plays on the move, overloading of zones with quick switches to isolated man in open space, picks to give space, yet quick to take the break if it's on.

I believe I read at one point that Rafa had studied some North American sports in order to obtain fresh ideas and concepts.

Brilliant. I've thought about that before actually- when talking about how our attack should be more unpredictable. Also, we're seeing defensive players like Agger, Skrtel and Mascherano getting involved in the attacking play by bringing the ball out of defence at times- I want to see more of that; the 'breaking' of the defensive structure in times of attack. I've already said I believe attacking footballers should be allowed to play with less of a rigid structure- more a 'guide' on what to do, with some slack for expression. It's why I think players like Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard (when in the free-role) and even Torres to an extent are so deadly. I want to see it with Babel a bit more this season.

[abhred]

Watched today's game, and for sure, we can see signs of Level 3 football. We certainly have the ideas, but our attacks and passes seem a bit disjointed. I think one reason Rafa wants Barry is because he can the glue of the team. One thing you notice with him is how he seems to stick everything together. From defense to midfield, and from midfield to attack. He's the one who just keeps moving the ball from one area to another, without doing anything fancy.

[royhendo]

the break about 30 minutes in was a good example I thought. almost impossible to defend and gerrard should have had the penalty. kuyt wins it about 30 yards from our own goal, turns them, and we're all sprinting to find space. he threads it to keane, one touch lay off to gerrard, disguised one touch ball back to keane, one touch threaded ball back to the sprinting kuyt in the channel, and then the cut back and foul.

we'll hit a groove at level 3 that habituates that kind of football.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

the break about 30 minutes in was a good example I thought. almost impossible to defend and gerrard should have had the penalty. kuyt wins it about 30 yards from our own goal, turns them, and we're all sprinting to find space. he threads it to keane, one touch lay off to gerrard, disguised one touch ball back to keane, one touch threaded ball back to the sprinting kuyt in the channel, and then the cut back and foul.

we'll hit a groove at level 3 that habituates that kind of football.

Nice to see Kuyt get a mention there. He was MoM for us on Sat until Gerrard's intervention. I've been an interested reader of this excellent thread but I was interested that my perception of Kuyt differed so much from that of the majority of posters on here. So I made a special effort to watch him on Saturday.

Now, unfortunately, due to the witchhunting activities of some of our posters, I am going to need to preface this with a disclaimer.  I KNOW KUYT HAS HIS LIMITATIONS, THEY ARE MANY AND MANIFEST AND I DO NOT WANT TO TURN THIS EXCELLENT THREAD INTO YET ANOTHER KUYT THREAD.

It seems to me that within the parameters of Level 3 football Kuyt actually fits in quite nicely. He is intelligent and hard working, he is always available for a pass (in a way which, for example, the far more talented, Benayoun is not), his passing is often first time and usually crisp.  This seems totally at odds with the appraisals of his play on here.  To me he has two major problems, the first is a lack of pace, this unfortunately stops him taking full advantage of many of the good things that he does.  The second is that at this level he is what I'd describe as a "nearly" player.  He does all the right things but just not quite well enough, an example being his shot early in the Boro game, hit it well, directed well, but allowed the keeper to make a good save.  Similarly his passing is seldom bad but often not quite good enough, his balls will just get cut out despite being well directed, or he will go for the easier ball outside the full-back when the difficult ball inside would have been the killer.

[BazC]

I agree, Kuyt was very impressive on Saturday. It's times like that when I love watching him in our team (and why I decided that I wanted him to stay rather than Crouch).

As for his place in Level 3 football; well I've already stated my opinions. Ironically, I thought I'd check back into this thread after seeing Raul's post on Gerrard on the right- and how it'd fit into the ideas in this post. I like the idea of a total footballing attacking set of players- all are able to drop deep, work the channels and of course, score goals. So, for me, Gerrard on the right instead of Kuyt makes sense, but not in a 4-4-2, but in the 4-2-3-1. That was the line between attack and defence is less blurred- with the holding midfielders and the defenders and the attacking quartet. With Keane here now, I think Gerrard's best position in the team is on the right- facilitating our attacking play and working the understanding (that will hopefully emerge) with Torres and Keane. I remember one moment when Kuyt cut inside though- from the left- picked the ball up from Alonso, and moved it on straight away to Gerrard, who if he'd done better with his pass, would have seen Torres away on goal.

Speaking of Torres and Keane- there were some amazing touches from those 2 on Saturday when linking up. Looked absolutely amazing.

I do like Kuyt- and he does play well, but when he's under pressure and needs to move the ball on quickly in those circumstances, his touch and pass lets him down completely. Generally though, it's good (his touch and his passing)- but it's that crucial time when we're not allowed space by the opposition that he just doesn't do anything for us in attack.

Thoughts?

[royhendo]

VDM - I thought the view emerging on this thread re Kuyt was much like yours (that is, almost perfect defensively, but not quite there offensively - albeit with a few great games from time to time when he does both well).

Hesbighesred certainly agrees with your view anyway, as do I. Where I agree he limits us in L3 terms is his lack of composure when we need to pin sides back and hold the ball in their half. 

[James B]

Domination, play-making, and circulation football? You've obviously got Liverpool mixed up with a different team.

Seriously though, Rafa has always been rather cautious in his tactical approach to a game, and I doubt that will ever change.

[royhendo]

Domination, play-making, and circulation football? You've obviously got Liverpool mixed up with a different team.

Seriously though, Rafa has always been rather cautious in his tactical approach to a game, and I doubt that will ever change.

you use the resources you have to try and achieve the maximum return in my view. at Valencia, rafa's gripe was largely that he couldn't add quality strikers to make the jump to a different balance; now we're seeing us recruit in ways that suggest a similar shift.

it's just an argument, though. do you not think rafa has it in his make-up to emulate michels/sacchi? it's not widely known how intensively risk averse they were - they placed massive defensive demands on all players.

[James B]

it's just an argument, though. do you not think rafa has it in his make-up to emulate michels/sacchi? it's not widely known how intensively risk averse they were - they placed massive defensive demands on all players.

I don't want to sound like a negative rafa slagger here, because I'm not. I know that Rafa doesn't have the amount of money or the amount of quality players that he'd like, but I still think he's too cautious tactically. When teams go to Old Trafford and the Emirates they know that the oposition are going to come at them strong, it's not like that at Anfield. It often seems like we take our time and weigh the oposition up before we make a move. Additionally, there's the fact that he tends to 'rest' key players against lesser teams, also known as rotation. I know there are very mixed views on the subject so I won't delve too deep into the matter, but for me it only works if you have a squad full of quality players (which we don't). I only have to mention one or two of the results last year to prove my point (Birmingham at home, Barnsley at home, wigan at home, villa at home etc), There are still quite a few players in the Liverpool squad who just aren't good enough to play for a title challenging team, so the strongest possible team should at least start every league game (if Rafa 'really' wants to win it that is).

[E2K]

Fair play, royhendo mate, very interesting pieces these and I can appreciate the amount of work that’s gone into them. Very good points made as well.

It’s certainly something that’s not easy to do, moving from what we can call Level One football onto Level Two and finally to Level Three. The final step is by far the most difficult one, I reckon, and we’re certainly having trouble with it at the moment if the amount of long balls we’re constantly playing, coupled with our indifferent performances thus far, are anything to go by. We’re certainly far from playing like Arsenal or United every match and, for that matter, Rafa’s Valencia.

If I could just use his Valencia team (one which I admired greatly at the time and still do) as an example, I do believe it has always been Rafa’s plan (and continues to be, in spite of the fact that we’re not there yet) to have Liverpool playing to that third level. We can look at his time in Valencia for a parallel here.

In 2001/02, his team won La Liga thanks to a ridiculously stubborn defence, with only 27 goals conceded by far and away the best defensive record in Spain that year. Yet they only scored 51 times, far less than the four teams who finished behind them. The title victory was based on a strong defensive base, with goals snatched on the break their usual means of victory. They rarely scored more than twice in a game that season, and it could be said that they played a very Level Two style.

Flash forward two years to their next league triumph in 2003/04, and a marked difference could be seen. They scored 71 goals that season in La Liga, 71, a huge increase on their previous title-winning effort. Even more impressive, the goals against tally remained exactly the same, 27. In other words, Rafa had recognised the need to expand his team’s “possibilities,” no longer ONLY relying on the best defence in the business and the odd goal snatched on the break. Now Valencia were simply awesome, one of the best teams I’ve seen in the past fifteen years, and had the powers that be backed the manager properly, they would only have gotten better.

In other words, Valencia moved up through the levels of which we speak during Rafa’s time in charge, and improved impressively along the way. It’s a good example of what we’re talking about, and it’s clear that the plan has been (and still is) the same at Liverpool.

Consider this. In Rafa’s first season at the club, we scored 52 and conceded 41. Quite alarming on both counts, but particularly defensively. Teams who concede anything over 30 goals in a season generally don’t challenge for League Titles unless their attack is truly gifted. So the goal was, at first, clearly to improve defensively to the point where we could soak up pressure and snatch goals on the break.

At Liverpool, however, Rafa wasn’t taking over the bones of a team that had been to two Champions League finals in a row. He was taking over a team who had finished thirty-odd points behind Arsenal the previous season, one laden with dead weight, so it was going to take longer to get there than it had at Valencia. Under the circumstances, a fight for fourth place was all we could expect. The Champions League was beyond our wildest dreams, and a good sign of the improvement that was imminent.

That improvement did come. The following season, we scored 57, a slight improvement, but our defensive capabilities went through the roof, only 25 conceded, a reduction of 16. We began to win games 1-0, snatching goals on the break, our defence our main asset. We finished on 82 points from 38 games, a tally that would have been enough to win La Liga in each of the seasons Valencia did it (with 75 and 77 points respectively).

But while there were similarities to his time in Valencia (not as much money as his rivals being a big one), things were tougher in England. He was still rebuilding a squad, whereas in Valencia, he had had quite a few of Cuper’s twice Champions League finalists. In addition, while Barcelona were in transition and Real Madrid becoming a circus in Spain, his two main rivals in England (Man. United and Chelsea) were not only able to vastly outspend him, both clubs were being run well on the pitch. So these improvements didn’t look quite as impressive. Yes we won the FA Cup, but we were still only good enough for 3rd in the League.
The following season, his third at Liverpool, was something akin to Rafa’s second in Valencia, where failure of the club to adequately back the manager in the transfer market led to a 5th place finish. At Liverpool, Rafa spent £20m+ on transfers in the summer of 2006, but all they got him were cheapish risks - Bellamy, Pennant, Aurelio, Gonzalez. Meanwhile, Chelsea and United (already in possession of deep, quality squads) got Shevchenko and Ballack, and Carrick respectively. The competition was incredibly fierce, more so than it had been in Spain, and unable to buy the quality of player he wanted, Rafa’s team remained rooted in Level Two. Our passage to yet another Champions League final showed, however, that the qualities which allowed Rafa to lead Valencia to that first league title in 2002 with a strong defence and little else were still there.

And so we come to last season, and finally Rafa was able to field a team with a more acceptable number of what you could call Level Three players. Bellamy was replaced with Torres, Gonzalez with Babel, Mascherano came into midfield. I don’t believe it is any coincidence that our goals tally was the highest it has been under Rafa. Sure, Torres scored over 20 league goals, that was a huge contributory factor. But I also believe that the higher quality of player allowed us to play a bit more Level Three and a bit less Level Two. Suddenly, while our goals against record remained fairly static at 28, our goals for tally jumped dramatically to 67.

These stats make interesting reading if you compare them with his time at Valencia:

1st Season
Valencia 51 (For) 27 (Against)
Liverpool 52 (For) 41 (Against)

2nd Season
Valencia 56 (For) 35 (Against)
Liverpool 57 (For) 25 (Against)

3rd Season
Valencia 71 (For) 27 (Against)
Liverpool 57 (For) 27 (Against)

4th Season
Valencia N/A
Liverpool 67 (For) 28 (Against)

I believe that Liverpool are following the same pattern as Valencia did back then, though understandably a season / season and a half behind. Three seasons after he joined Liverpool (UEFA Champions League Final 2007), Carragher, Finnan, Gerrard and Riise were the only players left since his arrival who still regularly played for the club (Dudek would soon be on his way, Kewell rarely played). Valencia, meanwhile, had ten of the Champions League runners-up of 2001 who still played regularly when they took to the field for the 2004 UEFA Cup final.

In other words, though Rafa had had little enough to spend (in comparison with his rivals) during his time at Valencia, he had never had to rebuild an entire squad. Players like Canizares, Ayala, Pellegrino, Carboni, Baraja, Aimar, Sanchez, Vicente, Aurelio and Albelda had all been there in 2001. This was the spine of the team, Rafa only had to give them the tactical base to succeed and add the right mix of new players like Mista, Marchena and Rufete to the mix. At Liverpool, on a limited budget, he had to build almost from scratch, trying to reconcile the need for a deep squad with the need for top quality players without ever being extravagantly flush like Ferguson or Mourinho. It’s little wonder that the club hasn’t yet reached that third level.

But I believe it’s coming. I believe that it’s always been Rafa’s plan, even if he might have another name for it. He did it at Valancia, he’s trying to do it here. But with the quality of player at his disposal from the start in Spain, it was easier. At Liverpool, it’s been trickier. After all, how do you play Level Three football with Biscan, Smicer, Baros, Traore and Nunez in the side (2005)? Or maybe Pennant, Bellamy and Gonzalez (2007)? True, Rafa bought a fair few of these players himself, but that was symptomatic of a manager trying to build a squad with a limited budget, thereby taking a few creative risks that didn’t come off.

The point is that, last season, Rafa had more quality players in the team than at any time since he got here, and the result was that we played more Level Three football than we had before. We finished on 76 points, again comparable to what Rafa's Valencia amassed in their two title-winning seasons in Spain. Players like Agger, Mascherano, Gerrard, Skrtel, Babel, Torres, these are players that have the qualities to play like that. Now Keane has been added, and he’s still pushing to sign more before the transfer deadline. The more quality you have, the more chance you have of attaining that third level, and I think we’re getting there.

One worry, however, is that amount of long balls we persist in playing. I don’t understand this, and it’s something that I hope irons itself out as the season progresses and players like Robbie and Nando, Mash and Stevie begin to gel as a unit. As the confidence gets better, hopefully the football will improve. Long ball teams don’t play level three football, that’s for sure, yet that is what we need to strive for if we’re going to win the title. Here’s hoping we succeed.

[abhred]

Fair play, royhendo mate, very interesting pieces these and I can appreciate the amount of work that’s gone into them. Very good points made as well.

It’s certainly something that’s not easy to do, moving from what we can call Level One football onto Level Two and finally to Level Three. The final step is by far the most difficult one, I reckon, and we’re certainly having trouble with it at the moment if the amount of long balls we’re constantly playing, coupled with our indifferent performances thus far, are anything to go by. We’re certainly far from playing like Arsenal or United every match and, for that matter, Rafa’s Valencia.....

Brilliantly thought out post, and makes a lot of sense.

Talking about long balls, I think Mascherano not being there would have made a difference. Once he gets back, he'll force us to play football again.

[royhendo]

Good stuff in the latest edition of World Soccer that talks briefly about Sacchi and how Baresi understood their zonal approach as an offensive tactic rather than a defensive one (much like the Brazilian cenre half who played for Barca under Sacchi). It's transcribed here in yorkykopite's excellent thread.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=224820.msg4717237#msg4717237

[royhendo]

I don't want to sound like a negative rafa slagger here, because I'm not.

you don't come across that way at all - it's just nice to expand on your thoughts is all. thus far in the thread there have been some thought-provoking ideas introduced where people expand on smaller points - that's all I meant really.
 

I know that Rafa doesn't have the amount of money or the amount of quality players that he'd like, but I still think he's too cautious tactically. When teams go to Old Trafford and the Emirates they know that the oposition are going to come at them strong, it's not like that at Anfield. It often seems like we take our time and weigh the oposition up before we make a move.

Yup, I'd agree that this is the question mark that hangs over us as we try to make the transition. Anecdotal evidence suggests a balance must be struck to make the transition to level 3 football take hold in a sustainable way, and open up the possibility of a dynasty that spans several teams (or generations of team I guess). The greatest managers (and we don't need to look outside Anfield for some of the best examples) managed to do that, and build two or three teams during their tenure. What the project is aimed at, I feel, is a process that enables that kind of 'fungibility' where losing a great player is something we can take in our stride, and just introduce the next gem from the pipeline.

Michels and Sacchi's projects were ambitious and placed a huge demand on their players, albeit they worked with smaller squads. In both cases, the players complained about the workload and felt they couldn't sustain the style of play for much longer. And also in both cases, new managers came in who were comparatively less disciplinarian - at Ajax, Stefan Kovacs took over from Michels and the reins came off. The players were allowed to run the show and express themselves fully, and Ajax played a season of phenomenal football, winning a domestic double and the European Cup in the process. But the lack of the father figure keeping the egos in check led to the team disintegrating and a period of decline that, had Michels stayed, might have seen them prevent our rise on the European stage (that's pretty controversial but I for one am glad Ajax weren't at full strength when we were on the rise).

In Milan's case, the contrast was less clear, as Capello came in, and he's clearly a man who doesn't take any shit; but compared to Sacchi, he went easier on his players, and led them to an 'invincibles' season in the league in his first year. They went on to dominate for several years domestically, but they didn't win another European Cup until 1994, so you could argue something was lost in the transition, albeit less so than at Ajax after Michels.

As such, this tendency to micromanage and the need to 'control' everything is stifling to an extent, but it's designed at generating long-term improvements. If we were to lose that, we might see a short-term increase in quality that sweeps us to a big season and a few trophies, but the risk is we throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's the overall process that's aimed at long-term improvement and sustained success, rather than cyclical success (a club like LFC will generally always achieve - the expectation levels demand high standards - in my view the way things are structured determine how sustainable that success is).

Additionally, there's the fact that he tends to 'rest' key players against lesser teams, also known as rotation. I know there are very mixed views on the subject so I won't delve too deep into the matter, but for me it only works if you have a squad full of quality players (which we don't). I only have to mention one or two of the results last year to prove my point (Birmingham at home, Barnsley at home, wigan at home, villa at home etc), There are still quite a few players in the Liverpool squad who just aren't good enough to play for a title challenging team, so the strongest possible team should at least start every league game (if Rafa 'really' wants to win it that is).

I would like you to delve deeper on this subject if it's possible mate, because it's a valid point for debate and thus far the arguments here have been polite and considered - it won't degenerate into name calling etc. I completely agree on the rotation issue as I say in the original 'part 3' - albeit I see it as a squad depth issue - over-reliance on a deep squad has thus far diluted the level of quality we could field (in terms of a 'first choice eleven'). It's the 'a few less like Zenden means a few more like Alves' argument, and I think it's pretty compelling.

However, that's one of the points underpinning the original piece in a way. If we acknowledge that our goal is truly intense level 3 football, and we acknowledge that precedent has proved teams like this fall apart quite quickly under that intensity, then you can see why two academic experts in physical education and human performance would refuse to budge on squad depth and the need for quality recovery time for their players. It's something we all wrestle with though isn't it? Some players are more bionic than others and can cope with the workload, whereas others struggle, and it's clear Rafa relies on some players more than others in that respect.

I think if we had eleven 'monsters' who were sufficiently flexible in tactical terms and who were able to sustain peak performance levels all season without feeling the ill-effects, then we'd see something close to what you mention above; but I think Essien's probably the only player in the league capable of that, and only because he apparently sleeps twelve hours a day.

Anyway, I agree that it disappears as an issue the moment you reach the right level of quality in your squad. As I say, I think that there's a tipping point we need to reach and we're a season or two away from it (whereas Man U and Chelsea are already there - I don't think Arsenal currently are). I think the youth pipeline is going to supply that quality in depth though - all the evidence points to that.

Sad to say it though, even when we reach the level we're aiming for, we'll only arrive at the same point as our rivals. This is what we need to do to be competitive long-term. That's my argument, anyway.

Anyway, please expand on your views because it's obvious you've thought this through, and nobody's going to give you any sh_t in here.

[royhendo]

E2K - that's exactly where I'm coming from - thanks for taking the time to post that cos for me it reinforces our progress, our tweening, and the 'room for improvement' - improvement that rafa was seeking to implement even after his last season with that Valencia squad.

[James B]

you don't come across that way at all

Perhaps not, but it doesn't matter, because I like Rafa and I am glad he is still manager of Liverpool (particularly after the way he has been treated by the owners). I just don't like the fact that there is an excuse for him after every single bad result, he is the manager therefore he must take at least some of the responsibility for poor results.

[Manila Kop]

I'll preface this post by saying I probably have the least experience and exposure to football on here.  Football is the 5th or 6th most popular sport in my country, and growing up I had no contact with anyone who played or watched the game regularly.  It was only in 2006 when I watched the World Cup on my birthday that I started getting into the game.  My first experience playing it was only last year although I've been doing 1-2 games a week since.  I've only received the most basic, rudimentary training for the game.  Part of the reason why I enjoy reading the exchanges here is because it helps me understand more about football and how to play it properly.

I finally caught the Boro game yesterday since I was on holiday last weekend, and as always I was watching out for signs we were playing Level 3 football.  One of the things that struck me last night was space (and you'll have to forgive me if I can't express the idea as clearly as I would like).  The way we exploit space, the way we let our opponents make use of it.

Level 3 football is all about keeping the ball and passing it well.  But these two facets depend on high-quality positional play - what my coach calls 'making yourself available' for the pass.  What struck me last night was how rarely our attacking players made themselves available.  You would see Kuyt and Benny stuck out on the flanks; Torres, Keane and sometimes Gerrard pressed up against Boro's defensive line.  Whenever the ball would be passed from the fullbacks to the wide attackers, it would inevitably be passed back (because no one was available) or possession is lost if passed forward (because all the attackers are being double- or triple-marked).  There wasn't enough movement off the ball to create passing opportunities.  As a result, there was a huge space in the middle of the players - the area between Xabi, the three forward players and the two wide attackers - which Boro exploited and used to regain possession and counter-attack us.

Now I know that we have a formation and that the players are most probably adhering to it.  But it just strikes me as odd that our off the ball movement is so poor, how often our players fail to lose their markers before the ball is passed to them.  One of the keys for crisp one-touch passing and circulation football is to ensure that our players open themselves up for a pass.  Instead there were too many circumstances where Yossi or Kuyt would get the ball, hold on to it, run sideways and pass it back to the defense because Torres and Keane were both surrounded by defenders and Gerrard's not open enough to receive a pass.

I have this idea in my head of two opposite extremes on the playing spectrum.  One style of play is built on players moving the ball at their feet, dribbling their way through opponents, depending a lot on individual skill and flair.  The other style is built on players bypassing opponents by passing the ball through them instead of going past them.  From what I've read on Rafa and this thread, we clearly want to do the latter style - the emphasis on Quaresma adapting his style of play to the team, the discussion on how Xabi 'injects pace' into the side comes to mind.  The ability to find space is invaluable because our squad isn't built on flair or tricks.  So the question is, why are our players finding it so hard to create this off the ball movement?  Are we missing a kind of forward playmaker (perhaps Lucas/Pacheco) to facilitate our forward movement, and find space when our players can't create it for themselves?

Secondly, there's been a lot of discussion about pressing and harrying of opposition players allows us to dominate the game.  The whole 'hunting in packs' concept from Sacchi.  It's also been used a couple of times to defend Kuyt's role in the team - how he pressures opposition players and defends from the front.  However I noticed him and Yossi yesterday trying to double up on the Boro players but in the process creating space for their players on the flank to exploit.  The amount of times we'd try to mark in packs, and how easily Boro would just find an unmarked man in space, was striking precisely because we had so much trouble doing the same against Boro.  It seems to me that our pressing and harrying makes the team lose its shape and opens up gaps that Boro exploited.

To some extent I think this will be addressed once Mascherano comes back into the side, functioning almost like a 'libero' (to borrow the term from that excellent article Royhendo transcribed) roving in front of the back four and breaking up attacks.  Again I just found it striking how disjointed we play without a key player like Masche in the line-up.  In a sense, it seems that despite improving our Team Tactical Team Building, we still need certain players to fill in key roles so that our team can play Level 3 football.  We need Masch at the back, and it seems to me that we also need that forward playmaker type up front to help in transitioning between defense and attack - as discussed a few pages back, maybe that's why we wanted Barry.

Sorry if the post is rambling and a bit incoherent, but I just wanted to throw it out and see what everyone else thinks.

[hesbighesred]

Manila, that was a top post, very interesting.

I'd just say regarding Mash, It's not just us.

Man Utd struggled hugely in Keane's late career, and for a year or two after he left. It's no coincidence that they won the title after buying Carrick, and it's no coincidence that in the absence of a real tackler in the Mash mould they played with not one, not two but THREE deeper midfielders last season.

Look at Arsenal at the moment, Eboue and Denilson in midfield, and they barely look a quarter of the team they were last season.

Real selling Makelele, another great example.

Then you add to that not just that Mash is a destoyer par excellence...second to none really, he is also an excellent passer of the ball, and a midfielder with immense positional sense. Watch Mash when we build up play, you will notice he doesn't just wait for the ball to be lost, he always finds space, he's always there if players need an out ball. We missed that almost as much as his tackling against Boro and Sunderland.

The problem is that with Alonso and Gerrard in there, Alonso has the discipline to keep his position, but doesn't have teh mobility and physique to dominate like Mash can. Gerrard does have the ability and physique, but totally lacks the positional discipline.

I think this helps explain why there were such gaps to exploit when Kuyt and Benny were hassling.

It's odd though, because Gerrard used to look all set to be a great defensive midfielder once upon a time.Again no coincidence that England actually looked like a good team with him and Scholes as the central midfielders.

[royhendo]

manila kop - by george i think you've got it!

really enjoyed that.

it's spot on because we've been fragmented when in possession (collectively) and comparatively ineffective at closing our opponents down when out of possession (again, a collective issue).

it's spot on about mascherano covering for our failings in this area when he's back in the side, but ideally we need to learn that collective positional discipline without him, and we're not there at the moment. fingers crossed we see a marked improvement tonight on that front.

[BazC]

Nice one Manila! They're exactly my thoughts, and mostly what I had in mind over criticisms of Kuyt, support of Xabi, circulation, having a less 'organised' attack (players are free from order in attack and thus, are more able to go looking for space); simple pass and move... your posts nails it completely. And that is what I believe a certain Mr Shankly talked of when discussing the simplicity of the game... and with the Saachi ideals as well- who I think based his footballing ideals on Liverpool's pass and move.

Not only that, but from a practical sense, the best attacking teams are the ones able to pass and move- and that's my experience from playing and watching football.

Well in.

[Manila Kop]

HBHR, Royhendo, and BazC - thanks for all the responses.  Glad to know I made some sense. 

I'll be interested to see what Roy writes about yesterday's match.  But the parts I was able to watch (the stream kept going down) seemed to confirm some of my impressions for the Boro game. 

I think to further develop on the idea, Rafa speaks about certain players as 'desequilibrantes' - players who can be the cutting-edge of attack.  But the way we've missed Masch makes me think that we're missing more 'lynchpin' or 'transition' players in the middle of the field.

As Royhendo said, neither Xabi nor Gerrard fit the position perfectly anymore, because they're either lacking positional discipline or physical presence.  Masch combines both of those as well as technical comfort with the ball and what I think is an underrated passing ability which was highlighted when he played for Argentina in the Olympics.  I also think that Gerrard's abilities - his physical presence and workrate, his technical and shooting skills, are a much better fit in a free role up front creating space for the other forwards. 

So now that Gerrard's injured, and Masch is back in the line-up, I wonder how we'll play against Villa.  I hope we dispense with 4-4-2 and get back to 4-2-3-1, moving Keane into the central Gerrard role, with Babel and Kuyt on either side as support.  If we're still playing badly, then Lucas and El Zhar come on for Xabi and Kuyt.  El Zhar has good on- and off-the-ball movement and addresses my key complaint about a player not making himself available - he definitely helps our transition play.  Lucas I think is tremendously underrated and can help knit together the kind of circulation football we've been talking about - a forward playmaker who keeps things tidy but creates space by his movement and vision.  The reserves final against Aston Villa was a particular example of how he manages to turn circulation football into attacking opportunities - I get goosebumps thinking about him and Pacheco playing for us in the future.

[abhred]

HBHR, Royhendo, and BazC - thanks for all the responses.  Glad to know I made some sense. 

I'll be interested to see what Roy writes about yesterday's match.  But the parts I was able to watch (the stream kept going down) seemed to confirm some of my impressions for the Boro game. 

I think to further develop on the idea, Rafa speaks about certain players as 'desequilibrantes' - players who can be the cutting-edge of attack.  But the way we've missed Masch makes me think that we're missing more 'lynchpin' or 'transition' players in the middle of the field.

As Royhendo said, neither Xabi nor Gerrard fit the position perfectly anymore, because they're either lacking positional discipline or physical presence.  Masch combines both of those as well as technical comfort with the ball and what I think is an underrated passing ability which was highlighted when he played for Argentina in the Olympics.  I also think that Gerrard's abilities - his physical presence and workrate, his technical and shooting skills, are a much better fit in a free role up front creating space for the other forwards. 

So now that Gerrard's injured, and Masch is back in the line-up, I wonder how we'll play against Villa.  I hope we dispense with 4-4-2 and get back to 4-2-3-1, moving Keane into the central Gerrard role, with Babel and Kuyt on either side as support.  If we're still playing badly, then Lucas and El Zhar come on for Xabi and Kuyt.  El Zhar has good on- and off-the-ball movement and addresses my key complaint about a player not making himself available - he definitely helps our transition play.  Lucas I think is tremendously underrated and can help knit together the kind of circulation football we've been talking about - a forward playmaker who keeps things tidy but creates space by his movement and vision.  The reserves final against Aston Villa was a particular example of how he manages to turn circulation football into attacking opportunities - I get goosebumps thinking about him and Pacheco playing for us in the future.

I completely agree, especially the parts about the roles of players.

I've said it before, we're missing our 'glue'. A player who sticks everything together, and Mascherano is that player. He does the exact same thing for Argentina, and you're right, he combines positional discipline, physical presence, technical ability and passing range which is crucial for us. He's the one who gives structure and shape to our midfield, and is absolutely integral for us.

And I completely agree with Lucas. I do feel that some here don't realize how good he can be. People keep talking about the need of a creative midfielder, who can unlock defenses. I'm absolutely convinced that Lucas has all that in his locker and more. He is a player that epitomizes 'Level 3' football for me. He's a typical 'pass and move' footballer. He's got tremendous vision and fantastic off the ball movement. I remember last season, when we were playing terrible football after we lost to Beşiktaş. Then came the Newcastle game, and it was Lucas' league starting debut I think. It was from that game onward that we starter our winning streak. Lucas came in, and suddenly, we started playing terrific football, with great movement and passing. Our revival started with Lucas playing. And the exact same thing with the Barnsley game. Lucas played the Inter game, and we starter our winning streak again.

I'm absolutely convinced that with Lucas in the team, we'll start playing much better football. He's a player around whom our football needs to revolve. I see a Lucas-Mascherano partnership as the best in Europe in a few seasons, and the future of the club.

[James B]

The whole point of this thread now seems even more ridiculous after how shite we played last night.

[royhendo]

i haven't watched the game yet - i was on the train home and got sporadic radio reception (alan greene and dean saunders) and a constant bombardment of worrying e-mails from fellow reds. will hopefully get the chance to watch it tonight but it sounds as if it'll be an ordeal.

The whole point of this thread now seems even more ridiculous after how shite we played last night.

well, obviously i'm going to disagree with that, but i do agree that, like early last season (particularly in the CL) we've been very poor so far - completely fragmented and lacking in creativity, cohesion, and cutting edge. it has to improve and we can only ride our luck and our 'mentality' (the euphemism for winning when playing terrible football) for so long before we come unstuck.

equally, however, we need to keep our heads. the quality in the squad is there JB3 - i think most would acknowledge that - and as we've seen in the past, the form will come. clearly, based on the analytical framework laid out in the original post, we're nowhere near level three for a number of reasons, but as for the point of the thread being ridiculous, I disagree - the point of the thread was to highlight the need for patience, and to start thinking about the real causes of our successes and failures on the park.

i think this thread has flushed out some real tools that let people cut through the chiched nonsense spouted by commentators and pundits, and think for ourselves about the reasons we've played the way we have.

clearly we're nowhere near level 3 at the minute, and losing Gerrard against Villa (at least) is going to be an interesting problem for us to solve. we're going to have to use a different pairing in the middle of the park - how's that going to affect things? the posters above feel mascherano and lucas will add cohesion - the very thing we've lacked so far - so it's a good chance to test that theory out.

but feel free to ignore the thread if you want. i just want to clarify - the point's not 'we're great we are - we're definitely on the way to playing total football'. the point is to expect that transition, and if it's not happening, to analyse the reasons why.

[BazC]

The whole point of this thread now seems even more ridiculous after how shite we played last night.

On the contrary, it's EVEN more important. This thread isn't about how we DO play Level 3 football- it's how we're going to play it regularly in the future. Performances like last night highlight this thread beautifully- which contains very well thought out reasoning on what we need to be doing, and (relevant to last night) what we aren't doing/what changes we need to make to get to the next level of attacking football. In terms of defensive organisation, I think we're already at the top level- for the most part... but we need to tie it in with a top class attacking system.

Fair points Manila- but I don't think it's the glue that's off....

Last few games- except Boro- Xabi's been very good at conducting the team; probing space, playing the simple passes (and not forcing it), doing his bit at winning the ball back- pretty much everything you want him to do. Only thing being he was playing next to 3 players having absolute stinkers- Yossi, Kuyt and Gerrard- I seriously can't remember another time when neither could dribble, shoot and most importantly- pass at all. They had the right ideas at times- Kuyt trying to go past the fullback, Yossi trying to skin the fullback and Gerrard trying to pick out a reverse pass to Babel (I think it was)... normally they'd come off as well- but last night was just abysmal. Gerrard's been injured- excusable. I really don't know why Yossi hasn't looked good in the few games he's played, and mostly Kuyt's looked poor as well (except Boro- where i thought he was actually quite good).

This goes back to Manila's points on finding the space and playing the simple passes then looking for more space, and what I (at least- think yorkykopite was talking about this as well) meant by Xabi not having the support up front. The 3 attacking players between him and the 2 strikers (who also suffered so much last night) were just absolutely dire. And in those circumstances, you could throw Barry, Lucas, Masch, Essien, Senna, Pirlo... and it wouldn't make a jolt of difference if the passes they're making don't amount to anything.

The lack of width is worrying now- I thought we'd be getting it from our fullbacks, but they're not providing it well enough at all. We need width from either them or the wide midfielders. Last night we had nothing, and we didn't even have the players who could play the ball in narrow situations- where you absolutely need to pass and move with one touch football. It all amounted to a very tame attacking game for us. Again.

A couple of seasons back, I wrote how Rafa was 'opening up' his attacking play more. The players we got that season were supposed to help us do this- play a more attacking game. This is just blind opinionating from me- Rafa distinctly said he expected to concede more goals  that season because the defenders would be caught out more (due to our greater attacking ambition). It didn't happen. We didn't have a good enough attacking set of players- but they still left our defence open and we'd concede goals. A bad start. Rafa changed it around part way through the season as it clearly wasn't working. This time round, we've not got good enough wide players- unless Dossena (who I think looks very decent in attacking) and Riera (dunno if he's signed yet- but looks like he will be) really hit it off and improve our game. Every game that goes by I wonder why Rafa's sticking with Kuyt, because, quite frankly, he's a massive hinderance in certain attacking situations due to his chronic inability to control/pass the ball in those situations. He's a very good player in other games- and he should only be featuring in those games, not as a regular starter. I don't think it's a bad patch of form either.

This season, I think it's important that, if we want to challenge for the League, our attacking play needs to crack through that shell of hard defences- they're the games that keep us from challenging for the title. And it's players like Kuyt, who I think are stopping us from taking it to the level of attack we need to be at to get through those games.

It sounds as though I hate Kuyt or whatever- but I don't, I guess I made my views on him clear earlier in the thread; I love watching him play a lot of the time- the way he grafts it out... I've said many times, it's what you want to see when you're at the game and spending your money- the players giving it their absolute 100% effort, and Kuyt does this most of all. But it's the occassions where he's out of his depth that frustrate me beyond belief (and to be fair to him, last night I was as frustrated with Gerrard and Yossi). And it's those occasions that need to be sorted out most of all.


Not only that... improving our players is one thing- but we also need a new mindset to be honest- and actually, in my opinion, that's most of the problem. Even if Kuyt or Yossi were to be replaced by Kaka and Messi, we'd need that evolution of mentality to truly become a top class attacking unit. And part of that, I think, rests with Rafa and getting players who will take to his instructions, be able to understand his ideas and of course, have the quality to make use of their good mentality.

[royhendo]

that's one thing i wonder actually BazC - whether we 'over-engineer' things to the extent that we stifle our own play.

one thing that's interesting is watching the games on double speed. you get a nice feel for the rhythm of the play, and it's a good way to highlight what separates a Liverpool team that's 'in the groove' from a Liverpool team like we've been seeing recently.

at double speed when we're playing well, the ball moves around like a pinball. when we're not playing well, it's touch, pass, touch, pass, touch, pass, touch... possession lost.

i know you can see it at normal speed, but it's a good way to get a feel for the confidence in the side and the rhythm and tempo of the play.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

one thing that's interesting is watching the games on double speed. you get a nice feel for the rhythm of the play, and it's a good way to highlight what separates a Liverpool team that's 'in the groove' from a Liverpool team like we've been seeing recently.

at double speed when we're playing well, the ball moves around like a pinball. when we're not playing well, it's touch, pass, touch, pass, touch, pass, touch... possession lost.

i know you can see it at normal speed, but it's a good way to get a feel for the confidence in the side and the rhythm and tempo of the play.

I have to say that is one of the most original excuses I've heard to explain why you can't bring yourself to sit through all 120+ minutes of a rather unedifying performance

Just to take a slight descant to Baz C, I actually thought that we did have width against Liege, I checked on numerous occasions and we had attacking players on both touchlines. Our problem was that we never really utilised this width. Partly through some excellent defending from Standard and partly because we don't really have the players to exploit wide situations properly.

[royhendo]

I have to say that is one of the most original excuses I've heard to explain why you can't bring yourself to sit through all 120+ minutes of a rather unedifying performance

i'm one of the lucky few who hasn't seen last night's game yet, but if the commentary gets bad I might!

disclaimer: watching the game at double speed before savouring the full game as god intended can make you go blind

[BazC]

I have to say that is one of the most original excuses I've heard to explain why you can't bring yourself to sit through all 120+ minutes of a rather unedifying performance

Just to take a slight descant to Baz C, I actually thought that we did have width against Liege, I checked on numerous occasions and we had attacking players on both touchlines. Our problem was that we never really utilised this width. Partly through some excellent defending from Standard and partly because we don't really have the players to exploit wide situations properly.

Fair enough actually, and I suppose now I think about is you're right- we did have width. But my point still stands- our wide players aren't good enough to bring us top attacking football. The point about S. Liege defending well is the important one; as it's against these defensive units we have trouble. Over 210 minutes of football we barely created a handful of half-decent chances. That's where my criticisms of Kuyt, Yossi and Arbeloa come from. Passing and controlling abilities weren't good enough to keep the ball moving in attack- it'd go up to the attacking players and just come to nothing. Not even a simple pass would come off... very frustrating.

roy- I don't think it's overengineering... games like last night we don't get to the point where we can over engineer! As soon as the ball gets to any attacking player- even if it's route 1 to the strikers- we'll lose possession- no decent control, and simple pass... just get tackled or give the ball away by a poor pass... there were times when we broke from midfield though- but it fell away. Kuyt played a brilliant through ball (the only attacking pass I can remember him pulling off in those 210 minutes of football...) but Babel can't control it on the edge of the box. El Zhar runs through their defense, should get a penalty but doesn't. Gerrard looks to play in Babel down the left of the box, but his pass goes for a goal kick, Yossi trying to dribble his way past the players to make space (normally he does this well), but gets tackled every single time. Just these simple pieces of play that we needed to link the defenders/Xabi to Torres and Keane, and it fell short completely.

I'll be very nervous about the Villa game, and thankfully, there's a bit of a break in between that and the Man Utd game- we need Lucas, Babel and Mascherano to get fully up to speed and maybe Gerrard to recover fully as well. With Lucas and Babel back, hopefully we'll have a direct improvement in attack, with Masch back hopefully it'll free up the other holding midfielder a bit more (be is Lucas or Alonso) and with Gerrard fully fit and into the attacking positions (not CM) hopefully we'll get that partnership with Torres bare more fruits, and an understanding with Keane develop further.

[Yorkykopite]

I wondered when this excellent thread would zero in on Dirk Kuyt. Well done Baz. The football that most Reds would like to see the boys playing is not going to be possible with Kuyt in the team. He has neither the technique, the pace nor the trickery to cause problems to opponents - just the sheer endeavour to cover for all these failings. I want to like the fella because his heart is made of oak. He ran the length of the pitch at top speed to support Torres and win a corner in extra-time when, by all rights, he could have taken a breather. He scored a superb predatory goal.  But most of the time he was the reef on which yet another Liverpool move foundered. This happens all the time.

That Rafa perserveres with him - indeed goes out of his way to praise him - is what makes me think we might continue to struggle to master opponents with 'Level 3'. That's a comment about the boss not Dirk. I just don't see Arsene Wenger ever wanting a Dirk Kuyt in his team. Ferguson wouldn't either. Nor would Scolari. His inclusion is a sign of an over-cautious manager who is a bit afraid to throw away the comfort rag of Kuyt scurrying round the pitch apparently causing damage to our opponents. I say 'apparently' because I'm not convinced he does. Again, I'm not questioning his 'scurrying' which is exemplary, but his ability to tackle and close things down. He certainly flew in to a couple of massively ill-judged tackles last night.

It took Rafa 2 years to finally ditch a clearly inadequate player in Riise. The reason he kept playing him (sometimes, astonishingly, at left midfield) was caution - he trusted that a robust, energetic Riise would damage opponents even if he'd never actually create anything for Liverpool. A bad mistake in my view. Well I don't think Rafa has 2 more years to get the right-wing position sorted out. My fear is that it will take a string of bad results (rather than just bad performances) before Rafa tries something more adventurous than Dirk Kuyt in midfield. But until he does, 'Level 3 football' will remain something that other teams play.



 

[BazC]

I think I mentioned Kuyt's failings (a limiting factor- but not the only limiting factor) a page or so back. And also made that Riise link- Riise was a decent solid player, but as soon as we needed more from our defenders (link to your post about attacking defenders) he gets found out. Same will happen with Kuyt when we look to step up a level in attacking football, in my opinion.

Kuyt is actually one of the few things I haven't agreed with over the last couple of seasons. Obviously not good enough as a second striker- and Rafa finally moves him out wide and stick Gerrard in there to support Torres. Now I want to see Rafa stick Kuyt on the bench and move Gerrard wide and get Keane supporting Torres directly- and then give all 3 of them some freedom to attack. That's 3 quality players who could become the best attacking threesome in the League. Just needs that change in mentality and the change around the first team to put more quality up there.

I don't agree with you on his tackling- last night was the perfect game to illustrate Kuyt for me. He won the ball back but gave it away many times, couldn't control it and couldn't make the supporting passes to Torres or Keane. Good at winning the ball back, but if that's the one good thing about Kuyt when we face teams like last night, then it gets me worried.

I'd like to think Rafa would have replaced him if he could- Masch and Lucas have been away, which has meant Gerrard has had to play deeper. When everyone's fit, I'd expect Kuyt to be on the bench with Gerrard moving further forward again, leaving 2 holding midfielders out of Masch, Lucas or Alonso. If Kuyt is still a regular, and putting in performances like last night (and he has performed like that pretty regulalry these last 2 seasons) then I'll be worried. I've been saying it for months that Kuyt shouldn't be in the first team, and ever since I first made my mind up on him towards the end of last season, he hasn't shown me enough to change my mind. He's still very poor in situations when our attack needs to step it against organised defensive teams.

[royhendo]

still didn't see the game last night (DIY duty) so i had a stay of execution...

roy- I don't think it's overengineering... games like last night we don't get to the point where we can over engineer!

i should clarify Baz mate - I mean over-engineering in our tactical preparation. We have no direct evidence, but I know from my limited personal experience that it's easier to play with a clear mind when your approach is second nature to you (pass and move and so forth) and you go out with simple instructions. Maybe that's an issue in early season - you go out with precise instructions in mind, and it's hard to relax and do the simple things properly as a result?

having heard scott murray on the guardian podcast this morning, you'd think benitez was actually another houllier. according to him we've played no attacking football in four years. that's not the memory i have to be honest.

[BazC]

still didn't see the game last night (DIY duty) so i had a stay of execution...

i should clarify Baz mate - I mean over-engineering in our tactical preparation. We have no direct evidence, but I know from my limited personal experience that it's easier to play with a clear mind when your approach is second nature to you (pass and move and so forth) and you go out with simple instructions. Maybe that's an issue in early season - you go out with precise instructions in mind, and it's hard to relax and do the simple things properly as a result?

having heard scott murray on the guardian podcast this morning, you'd think benitez was actually another houllier. according to him we've played no attacking football in four years. that's not the memory i have to be honest.

ah right, I get you. And I agree. In that case it goes back to what I've said earlier in this thread; I would rather see an attacking system that was less organised- the shackles of tactical play around players like Keane and Babel will mean they won't develop our attack into a world class one. Torres and Gerrard are cases in point- give them a freer role to attack, and great things can happen. Players who have the ability- and I especially mean Keane in this- shouldn't need specific instructions on how to attack, just a general guide. Torres, Gerrard, Keane and Babel should develop into a devastatingly effective attacking quartet- maybe Rafa needs to open up a bit more on the attacking side- let the players play; use their abilities and skill to create and finish chances for each other. I think you're completely right about having your head full of tactical stuff- like I said a page back; I think it was Arsene Wenger who tells his attacking players to 'just play'- and whatever anyone says about their team as a whole, I have to say, they have a very potent attacking force- on their day it's the best in Europe. That's where I want us to be- but coupled with a cast iron defensive unit (I suppose Man Utd actually found that balance last season).

Regarding attacking football; I wouldn't say it wasn't attacking football- but then I wouldn't say it was attacking football either. Rafa's searching for that happy (and deadly) medium between attack and defence. We've seen flashes of it these last few seasons, but nothing consistent yet. I guess where all these 'defensive football' jibes come from is that our defensive unit is very solid, yet our attacking players often look tired when up against a solid defence- less so in the last few seasons, but it still happens enough times for us not to challenge for the title.

[royhendo]

Watched the liege game last night and there's nothing more I'd add to what you all said above. you could use the same analysis to describe almost all of our sub-par performances over the last two years.

one thing I have wondered about is our pre-season this year. last year it got a lot of comment in the fallout from pako's departure. did it stay lighter this year again? not sure if it affects our play as such - just interested.

will be interesting to see the effects of gerrard's absence this afternoon though eh?

[BazC]

Anyone else find it ironic that when we discuss Level 3 football to such a depth, get all excited about how we've got 3 top quality attacking players in Torres, Gerrard and Keane etc. that we look so damn far from actually realising it?! Just me then?!

I thought our preseason went very well in general- really don't know what happened between that and our first competitive game in Belgium. Saying that, the Lazio game- last preseason- wasn't all that either to be honest...

I'm finding that I'm doing a lot of 'hoping' these days. Hoping that Gerrard, Keane and Torres hit it off when Gerrard finally moves into attacking midfield, hoping that Dossena and Degen are good enough to provide width, hoping Riera can be a good attacking option for us... most of all hoping that we actually see a very potent attacking force that can hold its own against even the tightest of defences. Even hoping Rafa finally cracks the Premier League nut- I don't think he has yet. I have to admit, there's a lot of faith involved in all this hoping, but I suppose some of it (namely Gerrard moving forward and improving our attack) we can expect by looking at it objectively.