Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[royhendo]

best not get into 'levels' after last night. that was level 1 stuff a lot of the time, let alone level 2... but we got out of there with our dignity intact at least.

anyway, i found this 2005 piece from sean ingle (who ironically spends most of his time sneering at benitez and LFC) and it reminds you how far things have come since the beginning of Rafa's tenure:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=63241.0

It was only in the dry, fussy heat of mid-summer that Rafa Benítez realised quite what he was getting into at Liverpool. Throughout the early days of pre-season training he had watched, with increasing befuddlement, as his squad [admittedly without its siesta-ing Euro 2004 stars] utterly failed to master some of the most basic drills he'd used at Valencia.

Benítez, one of the game's realists, knew that rebuilding Liverpool would take time. But he wasn't quite expecting the football equivalent of Scrapheap Challenge.

[Manila Kop]

Thanks Roy, good read that.  Wasn't able to watch the game last night due to work but it seems like it was dire enough to produce this beaut: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226438.0

I'd like to hear your diagnosis though - why have we regressed?  Is it just pre-season rustiness?

[royhendo]

I'd like to hear your diagnosis though - why have we regressed?  Is it just pre-season rustiness?

Hi mate

I'm not sure if we 'regressed' as such, but it was a sub-par performance, there's no doubt about that.

It was a horrible game to watch after about the first ten minutes. Up until that point, Liege sat off us a little and we looked like we were going to work them to the bone - we were containing them within their own half and the problem was our usual one from the last few games - we were forcing things too much rather than retaining the ball, building our rhythm/tempo, and waiting for the opening. That's a mental 'leap' we need to make, and i'm hoping it comes naturally as the team settles. it's all very well being incisive, but there's a danger we'll 'over-engineer' things too much. That's the big risk under Rafa in my view, and this season will tell us a lot in that respect.

Anyway, Liege obviously started out a little 'awed', but then their crowd seemed to have their effect, and suddenly we looked fragmented and heavy-legged in comparison, particularly down the left side. Dossena was given a torrid time, and our wide players somehow failed to do their basic job of applying proper pressure and stopping the cross/supply from the wide areas in midfield. I think I read a stat recently (Paul Doyle's Guardian preview I think it was) that said we allowed fewer crosses than any other Premier League team last year, but that certainly wasn't the case last night - Dossena/Yossi and Arbeloa/Kuyt somehow didn't manage to play their normal game. It was interesting to see Kuyt get swapped for El Zhar late on, because it said a lot about Kuyt's defensive shift.

we were also shocking at defending the crossed ball  (once crossed) and at defending set-pieces, and it's a genuine 'heart in the mouth' worry at times.

The problem, though, was crystal clear on the left, and the game as a whole was as good an advert for Rafa's pursuit of Barry as you could have asked for.

That leads to the other problem really - we missed our non-existent Barry in all aspects of our play. When Liege got on top, we retreated into tentative Level 1/Level 2 football, and Keane and Torres became horribly isolated. They were starved of possession, let alone chances, and when they did get the ball, there was no support from midfield really. Only on a couple of occasions where they lost the ball after Plessis nicked the ball and we broke quickly did we look like we might slice through them, but Keane couldn't quite pick the pass...

The camera would cut to rafa, and he'd be doing the 'two index fingers up, starting out wide and moving them closer together' routine, as if to say 'close the gaps and bring yourselves into play', but it wasn't having its desired effect.

Anyway, we had two deep-lying midfielders, fair enough. But both of them, when they broke up the play, looked to play the longer 'quarterback' style ball. now that's symptomatic of the fact we were being pressed back, and that the two forwards were so far away, but you got the feeling a calmer distribution in the middle would have played us back into things and built momentum. we neglect that aspect of our play in my view - possession for possession's sake (and the confidence it builds in us/drains from our opponents).

so these two midfielders would get the ball, only to lose it most of the time by trying a ball that wasn't their best option, and we were back to square one. alonso had some nice touches but he frustrated me a lot. plessis lacks experience and you get the feeling he'll learn, but xabi should know better (although maybe he was playing perfectly according to rafa's instructions, who knows?)

lastly, when we did break effectively, they'd regularly foul us about 25 yards out on the left - the perfect spot for a dangerous set-piece delivery. we squandered free kick after free kick and you have to put that down to xabi's delivery on the night - it was sub-standard.

So... a left-sided problem stopping their supply... a need to play it simple and retain possession from midfield... sub-standard delivery from our own left-sided set pieces... now which player might help us with these problems?

Anyway, it's unfair to Liege to leave them out of the equation - they played tremendously well on the night and they were incredibly physical - they were winning every 50:50 and generally knocking us out of our stride. if it wasn't for reina we'd be a couple of goals down going into the second leg. it's a worry with sunderland coming up cos they'll be the exact same.

[Manila Kop]

Thanks Roy for taking the time to write your match analysis, much better than the stuff I read from the broadsheets.

If I could suggest something (which will require a lot of effort admittedly) - maybe you can do a per-match analysis and see how it stacks up against what we've discussed here i.e. noticeable improvement if Barry comes, settling down instead of 'forcing' chances.  At the very least it'll be a better read than the match reports from the mainstream press. 

[royhendo]

we should just do it in here, no?

just my opinion anyway but I do think the 'we need wingers' thing is a red herring. we need to keep the ball when we win it, you know?

[royhendo]

by the way... inverting the pyramid?

Chelsea's starting line up today...

cech

bosingwa  carvalho  terry  cole

ballack  mikel  lampard

deco  cole

anelka



anyway, more 'grinding' on saturday but a win is a win is a win. interesting to see alonso's part in the drama (ducks as the angry pre-menstrual pro-alonso lobby rallies to his defence even when nobody's really attacking him, or even when they're praising him)...

he started out shambolic for me - i could picture myself stood in carra's position screaming blue murder at him for playing balls that weren't on, finding touch like jonny wilkinson, and so forth. but then he showed his mettle later on - and in impressive style. if he could maintain that tempo and accuracy and verve in every game he played, that would be that.

that said, you'd think torres hadn't scored a screamer from outside the box, but a tap-in from an open goal - apparently some on RAWK think alonso laid it on a plate for him.

alonso, if he stays and responds, will help us keep the ball in the final third, and he'll do unexpected things that are 'desequilibrante' as rafa apparently prefers. he showed signs of that in the last quarter on saturday and i truly hope we get the old xabi back - the one we know and love.

sunderland weren't bad were they?

[Manila Kop]

No Sunderland weren't bad at all.  And neither was Barry for Villa - kneejerk I know, but it's the first time I've actually paid attention to him and I came away with a favorable impression.

If we were to play 4-3-3 like Chelsea:

Reina/Cavalieri

Arbeloa/Degen   Agger/Hyppia   Carra/Skrtel   Dossena/Fabio

Masch/Plessis   Gerrard/Lucas   Barry/Xabi

Keane/Kuyt   Babel/Yossi

Torres/N'Gog

I would be very happy with that.  It's clear we need Xabi/Barry in the midfield to help distribute the ball and create movement for the team.  I was struck by how static we were against Sunderland - the players were waiting for the ball to come to them in crowded areas, instead of moving into space.  Barry was very effective for Aston Villa in exploiting space - overlapping, surging forward, throughballs.  Now that we don't need to sell Xabi to buy Barry I can appreciate how he can help balance the team.

[abhred]

No Sunderland weren't bad at all.  And neither was Barry for Villa - kneejerk I know, but it's the first time I've actually paid attention to him and I came away with a favorable impression.

If we were to play 4-3-3 like Chelsea:

Reina/Cavalieri

Arbeloa/Degen   Agger/Hyppia   Carra/Skrtel   Dossena/Fabio

Masch/Plessis   Gerrard/Lucas   Barry/Xabi

Keane/Kuyt   Babel/Yossi

Torres/N'Gog

I would be very happy with that.  It's clear we need Xabi/Barry in the midfield to help distribute the ball and create movement for the team.  I was struck by how static we were against Sunderland - the players were waiting for the ball to come to them in crowded areas, instead of moving into space.  Barry was very effective for Aston Villa in exploiting space - overlapping, surging forward, throughballs.  Now that we don't need to sell Xabi to buy Barry I can appreciate how he can help balance the team.

Yup, Barry was very good against City.

Stilll think he'll play on the left as an attacking midfielder, like Malouda did yesterday for Chelsea, covering for the full back on occassions.

[GeniusChrist]

Yup, Barry was very good against City.

Stilll think he'll play on the left as an attacking midfielder, like Malouda did yesterday for Chelsea, covering for the full back on occassions.

I like Barry, I'd be very happy if we signed him, however i'd like to ask the question how many times has Barry had to play in a team that has an opposition team in front of them who only wants to 'park the bus' in front of goal?
I'm pretty sure Villa don't get that. I'm almost certain that teams actually come out and attack Villa which creates more space for Villa to play in.
So, while I do think he will add to our game, i think there'd be times when he'd struggle to find passes and have as much of an influence on games as he does in a Villa shirt. Teams have a different mentality when playing us (and the others of the top four) than when playing Villa.

[royhendo]

I like Barry, I'd be very happy if we signed him, however i'd like to ask the question how many times has Barry had to play in a team that has an opposition team in front of them who only wants to 'park the bus' in front of goal?
I'm pretty sure Villa don't get that. I'm almost certain that teams actually come out and attack Villa which creates more space for Villa to play in.
So, while I do think he will add to our game, i think there'd be times when he'd struggle to find passes and have as much of an influence on games as he does in a Villa shirt. Teams have a different mentality when playing us (and the others of the top four) than when playing Villa.

hmmm... i think his one-touch passing and his precision are pretty good actually - he moves the ball simply and accurately. i don't think finding passes is something he struggles with - he might not have the verve and imagination that xabi does, but he does 'circulate the ball', no?

saying that, we're all 'new' to barry to an extent and i think we're watching him more closely now, so let's take a look and see what we find out.

i'm just hoping xabi steps up to the plate regardless of what happens (i don't want him to leave and i'm hoping shankslegend's rumour involves new owners, new funding, and room for both players in our squad). Imagine if he gets back to playing at the level he's capable of! when he's on song, there are few better at that 'regista' role (sorry, that's jonathan wilson pitching in there - italian word for a deep lying playmaker a la pirlo).

[GeniusChrist]

hmmm... i think his one-touch passing and his precision are pretty good actually - he moves the ball simply and accurately. i don't think finding passes is something he struggles with - he might not have the verve and imagination that xabi does, but he does 'circulate the ball', no?

saying that, we're all 'new' to barry to an extent and i think we're watching him more closely now, so let's take a look and see what we find out.

i'm just hoping xabi steps up to the plate regardless of what happens (i don't want him to leave and i'm hoping shankslegend's rumour involves new owners, new funding, and room for both players in our squad). Imagine if he gets back to playing at the level he's capable of! when he's on song, there are few better at that 'regista' role (sorry, that's jonathan wilson pitching in there - italian word for a deep lying playmaker a la pirlo).

I agree with his abilities, but i've yet to see them tested when a team needs breaking down, like they would every home game with us when teams pack the area infront of our midfield, which is what I meant by struggling for passes. I just think that Villa are given a bit more freedom to play by the opposition than we are, therefore passes are easier to find. That's not to say he would suffer, as like I say i know about his ability, i've admired Barry for a while now but it was his him breaking into the England set up that convinced me he'd be a good buy. I'd like to see him in a Liverpool shirt, but there's no guarantee he'd be an instant success or the 'final piece of the jigsaw' so to speak.

[Manila Kop]

Thought this was an interesting read about Paul Anderson's old manager when he went on loan in League One.  From what I've read on RAWK Swansea was playing good passing football under him.  Think it would be interesting to see if there's any similarities in the types of teams we loan out our young players in terms of playing style.

As was discussed in some previous posts, the arguments for sending them on loan is to expose them to different types of play and see how well they adapt.  And of course also the mental strength and motivation gained from getting a chance to prove yourself.  This season there was a trend towards sending the best youth players to bigger clubs like Nottingham Forest and Liecester where it was argued they would learn to cope with the expectations they'll encounter as Liverpool players in the future.  There have also been cases where players have had absolutely shite experiences with clubs playing very negative tactics to survive relegation.

The question is, are we also making sure they play the 'right' type of football (based on Royhendo's analysis) to help them develop as players?  Do people think that's part of the criteria when we loan them out?

Roberto Martinez: The Spanish swan
Roberto Martinez's instinct for analysis was first seen on TV. Now Swansea are reaping the benefits of this bright coach
By Chris McGrath

Tuesday, 19 August 2008

Roberto Martinez believes that football has its own, universal syntax, that players of every nationality can pick up its euphonies. After all, he knows better than most that a passport can only tell you so much about its bearer's values. As soon as he arrived at Swansea City, initially as a player in 2003, Martinez sensed a kinship between his native Catalonia and his new environment.

"There are many similarities," he says. "For Catalans, the big enemy is the centralism in Spain, and here in Wales it is a little bit the same – you are always fighting the big brother. But here people don't realise how lucky they are, to have their own football team, their own rugby team, their own recognition as a country. Catalans would love that. But both are very passionate peoples, who use sport to express themselves. And that's huge, that's a way to live.

"Under Franco, Catalans weren't allowed to speak their own language. Many had to go abroad, artists and writers especially. So all of a sudden, once allowed to be themselves, you can see the passion in everything they do. They'd been caged for so many years."

This ancestral emancipation suffused Martinez as a player, and is now making him one of the most admired young managers in the game. He returned to Swansea 18 months ago to take up his first coaching role, aged just 33. In his first full season, his team won the League One title by 10 points – in the process dismantling the hoary precept that you must play "nasty, brutish and long" to get out of the lower leagues – and they have already impressed in their first Championship skirmishes.

As a player, even in Spain, Martinez had been considered lacking in physicality. "That was always my challenge," he said. "I was a technical player, not a box-to-box worker. So for me to be able to play has always been a fight, with any manager I played under. If you have the patience, you can find the formula. But I had to suffer a lot in the British game to come up with that."

If he is now bobbing along its faster currents, Martinez has certainly visited some of the more stagnant backwaters of the British game. Back in 2003, Swansea were dangling over the abyss, six points adrift at the bottom of the league. He has been to Walsall, Motherwell, Chester.

It all began when Dave Whelan, the owner of Wigan Athletic, opened a sports shop in Zaragoza in 1995, happened to take in a game, and signed three young players. "Obviously the culture shock was huge," Martinez said. "The first time we saw Wigan play was in a friendly somewhere up north. Taking the kick-off, they passed it back and then just kicked it long, behind the full-back's head – just to kick it out of play, and then the whole team squeezed up. We said: 'Hey, what's this? That's a rugby movement.' We'd never seen that in Spain; you would get told off if you gave the ball away. So we thought: 'Wow, this is going to be interesting.'"

Off the field, the contrasts were no less unnerving. Accustomed to siestas and late dinners, he would get up to find it dark at four, and shops closing at five, but Martinez, young as he was, persevered.

"Now that I was here, I was going to make the most of the experience," he said. "Beans on toast as a pre-match meal – that was a big shock. And coming back from a long trip, Plymouth or wherever, the boys were allowed to have a drink on the bus and some had to leave their cars when we got back because they were drunk. That was a big 'no' in Spain. Here, at 18, someone tells a young player who's professional, who's not. They don't have to fight any more. In Spain, 18 is when you really need to make the point, whether you want to be a professional or not."

Sipping coffee at the training ground, Martinez pores over coloured graphs, mapping sophisticated fitness regimes. He emphasises diet, sleep, has hired a psychologist, even a hypnotist. "A huge part of football you cannot control," he reasons. "So the more you reduce your margin for error, in the areas you can control, the better the chance you give yourself."

For all those Catalan genes, his most important legacy is more personal, his father having been a respected manager in the lower leagues. "He decided family was his priority and that he was not going to move us around," he said. "But the gift he had for reading the game, the man management, without a doubt he would have been a success at higher level. I see hisinfluence in everything I do. He always shared things with me. I have seen a manager's brain ticking 24 hours a day since I could remember."

That instinct for analysis brought Martinez to widerattention through Sky's coverage of La Liga, and he is an informed witness of the shifting balance of power in the European game. Naturally he was delighted to see Spain exorcise their demons during the summer. "I don't think this was the best squad we ever had, but the first that had the mentality of getting on a football pitch against Italy or Germany and knowing what was needed. I think to beat Italy on penalties and then beat Germany 1-0 in the final is a football joke, really."

Martinez imported three compatriots last season and has again been recruiting imaginatively, and thriftily, capitalising on contacts abroad. He only permits English to be spoken in the dressing room, but again gave the squad fresh perspectives with a pre-season tour of Spain. They finished off recovering a three-goal deficit against the Barcelona B team, an encounter he had likened beforehand to "playing the Red Arrows". After opening their league campaign with a luckless defeat at Charlton, on Saturday they won their first home fixture, outplaying Nottingham Forest. Admittedly Forest had themselves only been promoted on Swansea's coat-tails, but there was an authentic touch of class about this performance – not least a delicious debut strike from Gorka Pintado, pilfered from Granada during the summer for just Ł70,000.

"You look at the names and the potential in the Championship, and have to be realistic," Martinez said. "At the same time, I think what we have given the fans a 'no-fear' factor. Our dream has always been Premier League football – not just now, but when we were trying to get out of League One as well.

"How long is it going to take? It could be five years, 10 years, two years, we don't know, but what is clear nowadays is that you need to take solid steps in whatever you do, so that every day the club grows stronger. So that one day, when you get there, you will be able to compete. The fans, the players, the directors, everyone understands how difficult the road will be but so long as we are united, we shouldn't fear anything."

The Swansea fans dread only one thing now, for a reputation for instant results will surely provoke the interest of Premier League chairmen. During the summer, indeed, Martinez was among those tipped to replace Carlos Queiroz as assistant at Old Trafford. He dismissed the yarn, but added: "It's a compliment for Swansea City, because I don't think many people would have paid a transfer fee to get a player in League Two to be a manager in League One. If the board were to say: 'We want to be a mid-table Championship club', then it would be time for me to go because I want to go all the way but the board and fans want to go all the way as well."

Times have changed, however, since John Toshack pulled off three consecutive promotions here. "In football, it's very difficult to do something different," Martinez mused.

"When Toshack went to Spain he was competitive with Real Sociedad, with a group of young, passionate Basque players. And he achieved that through his tactical brain. Then you have Johan Cruyff – he took the game to adifferent level, finding the chance to score rather than chasing it. But in the end there is no right or wrong in football. Different cultures allow you different ways to play, and different ways to succeed."

[royhendo]

Seen this?
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226846.new#new

I'd be interested to see hesbighesred's thoughts on that.

[exiledinyorkshire]

May i just say Royhendo, that was a fantastic read. Kind of always thought that the masterplan was taking shape, but its easy at times to loose sight of whats trying to be achieved. The existence of a blue print and the eloquent manner of your explanation, will be a new angle for me while watching the games this year, and realistic expectations will surely follow for anybody that takes the time to read your article.

Bit that most interested me was the youth parts. In particular the time when the younger players start to be measured against senior pros, if this is being done at the moment i am baffled as to why Voronin is still getting in ahead of Nemeth, although its early days and i may be pleasantly surprised as the season wears on.

My pesonal opinion is that Rafa would rather not have to look at them until they are actually men, ie physically mature enough to play a part. I have always thought this would men not seeing players until they are 20-21-22. What do you think?

[royhendo]

Thought this was an interesting read about Paul Anderson's old manager when he went on loan in League One.  From what I've read on RAWK Swansea was playing good passing football under him.  Think it would be interesting to see if there's any similarities in the types of teams we loan out our young players in terms of playing style.

As was discussed in some previous posts, the arguments for sending them on loan is to expose them to different types of play and see how well they adapt.  And of course also the mental strength and motivation gained from getting a chance to prove yourself.  This season there was a trend towards sending the best youth players to bigger clubs like Nottingham Forest and Liecester where it was argued they would learn to cope with the expectations they'll encounter as Liverpool players in the future.  There have also been cases where players have had absolutely shite experiences with clubs playing very negative tactics to survive relegation.

The question is, are we also making sure they play the 'right' type of football (based on Royhendo's analysis) to help them develop as players?  Do people think that's part of the criteria when we loan them out?

ManilaKop - that was a good article on Martinez, cheers. I've no idea if we go to that depth with our analysis when sending players out on loan - I've not seen any evidence either way really.

The suggestion earlier in the thread was that the fact of the loan hinted at two things - that there was a question mark over the player sufficient to stop them gaining automatic entry into the first team squad at melwood, and that there were enough positives to keep the player as a work in progress.

It's also been suggested that it could be used to hone the mental toughness of the player and let them develop their leadership skills (for example the feedback on Godwin Antwi's performance at Hartlepool, where he emerged as a leader despite playing with older, more experienced players).

The last factor's the cynical financial one - sending them out on loan will bump up any prospective sale value if we need to bring in new players (look at Guthrie and Carson).

I'm not sure we do that kind of analysis but some clubs are actively looking to recruit on that basis (I know that locally to me, Dundee United are taking on loan players with that in mind, and trying to develop good working relationships with the supplying clubs because it's seen as cost-effective).

[BazC]

Well in Roy 

That is absolutely amazing stuff, and the best insight into our football I've read. Well played.

A year or so ago I posted about us teetering on the edge of, what i know now as, Level 3 football. I truly thought that we'd tip over the edge into a top class level of football after the arrival of Torres and to some extent Babel.

Since Rafa's 2nd summer here (after the FA Cup win) there's been little progress, or I should say, little relative progress, in the league for us. The reason why I believe we haven't progressed is because Rafa hasn't been able to buy the players he wants. I believe the massive importance placed on mentality as well as ability is an important distinction to make. I still don't believe the team as a whole has the right mentality to win the league, or even challenge. Rafa yearns to change this by bringing in quality players who have the right mindset (not just attitude, but will to win and determination to pull out of a slump) but has been thwarted by financial and political issues. And we'll stay in this state of limbo until we either have enough money, or, the players in our top youth/reserve set ups becomes ready to enter first team football and are good enough to make the difference.

The notion of Level 3 football, to me, seems near but at the same time, far away. As is pointed out in the original piece, we're not consistantly reaching the level 3 play. I've put that down to mentality personally- because by considering (subjectively, I must admit) the way we have played against top teams last season, I can't believe that the squad doesn't have the quality to challenge. Automatically I put it down to mentality, in that case... a view further reinforced when recollecting my personal frustrations when we not only had a massive slump, but together with the fact we pulled out of it. I just believe we need the mental toughness to eradicate those slumps of bad results and push on. I suppose that comes with Level 3 football, which involves a certain level of confidence.

On the weekend there was Chelsea, over the last couple of seasons it's been Man U, and before that Barcelona, Arsenal, Real Madrid... all teams that have been able to circulate the ball well around the pitch, probing for openings and pouncing on them when the opposition exposes themselves. The best set piece of such football I've seen in my life is Argentina scoring that goal in the World Cup... you all know the one. The ball was passed around the whole team, around all areas of the pitch, and finally, the beautiful understanding, mutual awareness and skill of the move ended in a goal. That's the sort of level I'd love to see our team play at, but I still think we're deeprooted into the level 2 characteristics of counter attacking play- an indication is just how easy it is for lesser teams to defend against us if they're organised and play with 10 men behind the ball... we just run out of ideas, can't get the ball into the final third let alone keep it there most of the time, and thus, find creating chances very hard.

The quality in our attacking play is good- Torres, Gerrard and Keane are 3 of the best players in the league, Babel is a potential great and Yossi has the ability to create and score with his awareness. The only player that regularly frustrates me is Kuyt... I just don't believe he should be a regular in our first team as I don't think he has the abilities to see us realise the type of football we need to see to win the league.

Largely, I do think we have the quality, therefore, to realise the football we need to see. But I think we need to break out of the level 2, counter attacking style, and I think it's a case of mentality. I don't think it's a coincidence that when we do see the periods of good football from our team it's at a time of confidence; a time when motivation comes easily. It's imperative that at times of poor results, we break out of them quickly- and get back on the road to building confidence and improving the style of football. That's been our problem...

Another point I want to make, because this post highlights it brilliantly, is that of the importance of good football. This comes on the back of some people commenting on how they'd love it if we played poorly every game but won it- this after the Sunderland game. I didn't understand it. The reason why I don't like seeing performances like Satruday is because they don't often result in wins- I'd love it if they did, but they don't. Playing a style of football that has been described above (Level 3) is effective, but also happens to be attractive. But I don't mean attractive like Arsenal's style; which although is attractive, isn't effective. I mean (in the present time) football like Real Madrid and Man Utd play. Posession, circulation of the ball, organised defending and the ability of players to act on the good awareness they have. This type of football forces control over the game, but ruthlessly takes advantage of that control.

I'll finish by some of those brilliant points by RM. How this style, and certain 'characterisitics' he describes aren't the goal- but the means to an end. I have felt several times that the target of controlling posession for Rafa doesn't apply to that... instead of being a means to an end (the end being 3 points), it seems that when we do gain control of the ball we get suspended in a state of limbo. Keeping the ball in our third/middle third but as soon as the ball gets pushed forward, our players can't keep it there. I think Xabi gets unfair stick because of this. Many times over the last couple of games even, you would see Xabi trying to get the ball forward, but as soon as he did, the ball would just come back at us. That's where my frustrations with Kuyt come from- although I do realise even Torres, Keane, Gerrard and Yossi weren't doing too well in that aspect in the last couple of games.

When we burst out of this level 2 style, and start seeing level 3 characteristics on a more frequent level, I think we'll challenge. But whilst I think we may not be far away, we're still trailing behind the other teams in the top 4, and there still needs to be a significant shift in the mentality of our team to progress. Whether that shift comes with Rafa being able to bring in the players he wants or the youth/reserve set ups remains to be seen.

[Yorkykopite]

Some interesting thoughts there Baz, though in the first part of your post you put too much emphasis on buying the right players. The ideas of RM don't need a big purse to make them come to fruition. The opposite is true. It's in the coaching not an extravagant transfer policy.

But I agree with what you say about Kuyt. To achieve Level 3 a team can not afford to carry passengers when it has the ball . Dirk is the great retriever and blocker and harrier. But he's a poor player when we have possession (The same is true of Carragher and Hyypia). I would have thought it's impossible to achieve Level 3 if two or three of your outfield players can't contribute with the ball and/or don't really want it at their feet. For the purposes of attack (including circulating the ball) these lads might as well be in the changing room with red cards.

[BazC]

Some interesting thoughts there Baz, though in the first part of your post you put too much emphasis on buying the right players. The ideas of RM don't need a big purse to make them come to fruition. The opposite is true. It's in the coaching not an extravagant transfer policy.

But I agree with what you say about Kuyt. To achieve Level 3 a team can not afford to carry passengers when it has the ball . Dirk is the great retriever and blocker and harrier. But he's a poor player when we have possession (The same is true of Carragher and Hyypia). I would have thought it's impossible to achieve Level 3 if two or three of your outfield players can't contribute with the ball and/or don't really want it at their feet. For the purposes of attack (including circulating the ball) these lads might as well be in the changing room with red cards.

Cheers mate. On the first point, I place emphasis on buying players, because I was considering why we haven't seen the level of football- and in my view, real progress (when comparing to the other top teams in the league)- since Rafa's been here. As Royhendo points out- signings like Alves got away, and they would definitely have contributed to stepping up a notch in our style of football. I think the recent policies of developing our youth will only bare fruits in 3-4 years... but when considering the first team here and now (and it's progress over the last couple of seasons), it's important to emphasise that Rafa hasn't always gotten his first choice players.

On Kuyt; yeah, he's great at retrieving the ball, but sadly he seems to give it away a lot when trying to go forward. Not all the time, but enough of the time. I don't think we'll get to the level we need to be with him in the first team. Great option to have in the squad though... sometimes you need a player like him to help us grind out a win. But if we see him regularly this season, I'd be worried. I guess we'll find out just how much Rafa uses him in the coming games- with Babel back and of course, Keane a new signing, it'll be interesting to see just how many games Kuyt starts...

[royhendo]

Great to see you on this thread BazC - I enjoy your posts a lot.

Your posts, and yorky's above, have got me thinking again. I'm a former centre half and always tend to see things from a defensive point of view - I used to scream at players who gave the ball away for no reason cos it meant we all had a harder time than we should do - I guess that skews my view of football really. I think there are all kinds of positives to be drawn from ball retention and patience in possession.

With that in mind, your points about Kuyt are compelling. I've gone pretty easy on him out wide because of his defensive attributes, but I think the point the two of you make about his ability to retain the ball out wide is a compelling one.

Last night (I've not seen this yet - just read reports on here) apparently Xabi scored a nice goal for Spain where he found space in the Denmark box after the ball was retained out wide by Capel, which made space and brought Xabi into the play further up the pitch. That made me think of your exchange here.

Kaiser, who used to frequent these boards, was recently holed up at ynwa.tv, and was recently banned for some preposterous posts that almost brought the boards to a standstill. one thing he apparently said, however, was that he thought Kuyt would do a good shift at right back. A little part of me (ducks as he anticipates the mass disdain) agrees with him there, although even then I think it's important your full backs don't give the ball away cheaply.

I dunno - I feel like I always stick up for Kuyt, but quite honestly I think Rafa agrees with your assessment guys, because we're now seeing El Zhar introduced (once directly for Kuyt, once for Keane, but in both cases playing the wide right role). Kuyt is a very useful player for a level 2 strategy, but I think the emerging question marks over his contribution reflect our 'tweening' status on the brink of level 3. You're exactly right - we need players who can retain the ball further up the pitch, and bring advancing players into the game to circulate the ball effectively.

I think the flip side of that is that Alonso has to take more responsibility to advance into these gaps and to play the simpler passes to players in space - to trust his team mates effectively. But again, how do you trust certain players to retain the ball in this way when they've demonstrated time and again that they're profligate in possession.

Brilliant posts again guys - really enjoy your stuff.

[royhendo]

Another profile in the 'Rafa's Bootroom' series - again, it's more insight into the thinking that goes on behind the scenes...

(As an aside, I think the British cycling success at Beijing is a great example of how commitment and long-term planning pay off big style. If you read the quotes of the guys behind that programme, they read a lot like the stuff you hear about the work done behind the scenes at LFC under Rafa.)

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226886.msg4694694#msg4694694

We won the league and what does he do? Appoint a Fitness Coach just for the Reserves.

Are we heading back to the days when the 2 best teams on Merseyside are Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves?

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/features/this_season/FN13306080820-1155.htm

RAFA'S 'APPRENTICE' ARRIVES AT MELWOOD
Jimmy Rice 20 August 2008

Ever wondered how Rafa Benitez selects his backroom staff; how someone gets to join the modern day bootroom?

In some cases, such as assistant manager Sammy Lee, the reasons for an appointment are there for all to see.
 
But with others, like Melwood's newest recruit Gonzalo Rodriguez, the selection procedure takes a little longer.
 
The club's new fitness coach went through a year-long interview process before hearing the words 'You're hired'.
 
"The boss got my CV about a year ago," explains Rafa's new apprentice. "We began to speak by internet sometimes, but really it was only chatting.
 
"Then he began to ask me questions like, 'What would you do in this situation?' It was like a year-long interview!
 
"Then I was on my holidays and I got a call from Rafa saying, 'Hi, are you doing anything?' He told me to come to England the next day."
 
The time taken to finally arrive at Anfield should not disguise the fact that Gonzalo's CV is as eclectic as it is impressive. His achievements in 29 years would earn him a place on any reality TV show, never mind a job working alongside Gary Ablett as fitness coach to the reserves.
 
Prior to arriving in England, he divided his time between three jobs: PE teacher; fitness trainer to professional sportsmen; and under-15s coach at La Liga side Valladolid. As if all this wasn't enough to juggle, Gonzalo has spent the last few years working towards a doctorate.
 
Oh, and he also used to play professional handball - even representing Spain at youth level.
 
"A lot of people ask me how I can go from handball to football," he says.
 
Gonzalo Rodriguez

"There are two aspects. One is the basic fitness preparation, which is effectively the same; the other is looking at the different functions of each sport - like in football you would focus on your foot and therefore you have to do the applications for different skills."
 
Another way Gonzalo is having to adapt concerns the age of Rafa's reserves, the majority of whom are in their late teens.
 
He explains: "The kind of work we do is not the same as with the first team. Whereas they can focus on muscular work, you can't do that in the same way when you are 19; you can't do the same things as 27-year-olds.
 
"We cannot do the same exercises but the young players have to be ready in case Rafa calls them up, so you have to train them step by step. You have to find a balance."

[Manila Kop]

I used to scream at players who gave the ball away for no reason cos it meant we all had a harder time than we should do

Kinell Roy I'd hate to play with you. 

[royhendo]

Kinell Roy I'd hate to play with you. 

LOL my best mate would agree with you dude. He was a centre forward or a right winger. If you were playing a good side and he had to track his man, he was hopeless, but he didn't care and he kept losing the ball and never tracking back to get it, the lazy get!

He just wanted to score a silkier goal than he did last time he played (bloody skilful he was). Looking back it's funny cos he scored some nice goals, but his favourite memory is hitting the post with an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. No goal, but nice memory.

Me on the other hand, my Dad constantly drummed into my head that 'you only play as well as the other team lets you play' and that moulded me into quite a vocal player - I got worse when I started to play rugby cos our coach was always saying in training "come on lads, speak speak speak, keep each other right cos it's intimidating".

Anyway needless to say we're polarised on players like Quaresma cos he sees himself doing a bicycle kick on the end of one of his crosses with the outsid of his foot, whereas I see myself raging cos their right back's come half way up the park with the ball and nobody's taken the trouble to check his run...

We're kind of 'in the middle ground' on the Alonso debate - he thinks he spends too much time doing the boring stuff when he should be shooting from his own half, whereas I'd like a few of them but a few more simple balls from time to time.

[Manila Kop]

I stand with you on the tracking back debate with you Roy - absolutely hate playing with this lazy twat of a striker who stands around in the final third waiting for the ball to come to him.  And if the service isn't perfect, guaranteed he'll lose possession and stand around blaming other people about it instead of trying to get the ball back. 

Saw the Spain highlights yesterday and I liked how Alonso looked - he was doing the simple things, passing it around well, but managed to get into good positions to score and showed superb technique both times.  I don't think he needs to be shooting from his own half to score for Liverpool but as BazC and yorky have pointed out it's partly due to how we maintain possession. 

Xabi gets into those positions for Spain because the squad as a whole, and the attacking players in particular, are comfortable holding onto the ball, running with it and passing it to the 'correct' teammate even when being pressured by opposition players.  Part of the reason Xabi rarely gets into those scoring opportunities for us is because the likes of Kuyt will usually lose the ball requiring him to track back.  Instead of being able to build up the attack and gradually move forward until he's in a good position to penetrate the space created by the attacking players (which is how he scored his first goal yesterday).

You never hear about how his lack of pace makes Xabi ineffective for Spain - but that's because Spain doesn't have to rely on counter-attacking football, whereas we do because we don't have enough players good enough to fulfill level 3.

[Yorkykopite]

You never hear about how his lack of pace makes Xabi ineffective for Spain - but that's because Spain doesn't have to rely on counter-attacking football, whereas we do because we don't have enough players good enough to fulfill level 3.

Good stuff Manila Kop. I selected this bit though because there's another reason you never hear about his "lack of pace" when playing for Spain. And that's because he so obviously injects pace into their play.

Pace is an odd thing in footy. It's much more than about footspeed. Cisse for example was one of the slowest players Ive ever seen at Liverpool. Partly it was his inability to think ahead, partly it was 'slow feet' (the inability to keep the ball close to him when running with it and therefore change direction quickly), and partly it was a very poor first touch which meant his second touch (if he was granted one) was all about correcting the initial mistake. Result = very slow player. Alonso, judged by the same criteria, is very quick.

You can see this when he plays for Spain (and sometimes for Liverpool). He brings pace to the team by not dawdling on the ball, seeing gaps that others don't see, hitting first time passes that catch the oppo unawares. The result is that he buys time (ie finds space) for his teammates. His teammates for Spain know how to exploit this. That. sadly, is not true of several of his Liverpool colleagues. Kuyt is a glaring example.

[Manila Kop]

That is some strikingly great analysis yorky.  Your paragraph about Cisse may as well be about Kuyt as well.  I especially like the part about dawdling on the ball - this is something that Kuyt always does.  Whenever he gets the ball I always feel like he's a second too slow to decide what to do with it; the end result being he gets caught in possession or is forced to pass the ball back.  When he tries to go forward it's always a dead end.

The idea of 'injecting pace' also addresses anothe other conceit about Liverpool - how we need 'tricky wingers' or 'flair players' like Ronaldo whose moments of brilliance can win us matches.  But when you look at the Spain playing in the Euros, how many stepovers or flashy tricks did you see from the likes of Villa, Xavi, Cesc, Iniesta, Silva or Torres?  They didn't need to rely on those kinds of players to get a breakthrough.  The neat passing, technique and movement of the entire team was enough to engineer goal-scoring opportunities.

I used to hate 'tiki-taka' and Spain's endless passing around of the ball, but what they're doing the circulation football that RM classed as level 3.  I don't think they've quite perfected it yet, but they showed during Euro 08 what can happen when they get it right.  They build a passing rhythm that exploits spaces among their opponents through constant movement.  More importantly I think sustained good circulation of the ball can demoralize the opposition - defenders hate getting twisted and turned and that feeling of impotence to prevent a goal from eventually happening.  I've experienced it during a few games - when you're standing around not knowing who your opponent is going to pass to and there are just too many opposing players moving around in the area to cover.  The important thing here is to retain possession patiently and not force things because losing possession destroys that momentum and rhythm.  You have to pounce when the opposition has been turned inside out by your passing and they lose concentration because they're being swarmed by your team.  That's how Xabi scored his goals last night.

We can't do that in Liverpool partly due to technical and decision-making deficiencies but also to mentality.  Too many times do I see us rushing play because we want to score so desperately.  It's the mental fragility of a squad that thinks they can be beaten if they can't score first and prevents us from calmly passing it around.  Maybe on the part of players like Torres and Gerrard, they rush it because they know every second the ball stays with the likes of Kuyt or Yossi, there's a bigger chance the opposition can get the ball back.

I don't mean to sound like I'm slating Kuyt or Yossi - I think they're useful squad players.  But this thread has really helped clarify for me analytically what's wrong with team at the moment.  Forget wingers, wide areas or formations, it's down to the players who have the quality to play the passing game consistently and those who can only show it sporadically.

[royhendo]

Alonso, judged by the same criteria, is very quick.

You can see this when he plays for Spain (and sometimes for Liverpool). He brings pace to the team by not dawdling on the ball, seeing gaps that others don't see, hitting first time passes that catch the oppo unawares. The result is that he buys time (ie finds space) for his teammates. His teammates for Spain know how to exploit this. That. sadly, is not true of several of his Liverpool colleagues. Kuyt is a glaring example.

I'm not sure that's true though yorky - he's guilty of the occasional 'dawdle' and it puts us under pressure at times when he's not on his game, no? Also, while team mates let him down a lot of the time, he's also guilty of trying to thread high 'low percentage' balls when it might be easier to go lateral.

I know the way you describe him here represents the level he's consistently capable of mate, and it's good to see that he's rediscovering that kind of level recently, but... I dunno. I love him as a player but I think we have a right to expect his best level on a consistent basis (for the reasons you discuss).

[BazC]

Great to see you on this thread BazC - I enjoy your posts a lot.

Your posts, and yorky's above, have got me thinking again. I'm a former centre half and always tend to see things from a defensive point of view - I used to scream at players who gave the ball away for no reason cos it meant we all had a harder time than we should do - I guess that skews my view of football really. I think there are all kinds of positives to be drawn from ball retention and patience in possession.

With that in mind, your points about Kuyt are compelling. I've gone pretty easy on him out wide because of his defensive attributes, but I think the point the two of you make about his ability to retain the ball out wide is a compelling one.

Last night (I've not seen this yet - just read reports on here) apparently Xabi scored a nice goal for Spain where he found space in the Denmark box after the ball was retained out wide by Capel, which made space and brought Xabi into the play further up the pitch. That made me think of your exchange here.

Kaiser, who used to frequent these boards, was recently holed up at ynwa.tv, and was recently banned for some preposterous posts that almost brought the boards to a standstill. one thing he apparently said, however, was that he thought Kuyt would do a good shift at right back. A little part of me (ducks as he anticipates the mass disdain) agrees with him there, although even then I think it's important your full backs don't give the ball away cheaply.

I dunno - I feel like I always stick up for Kuyt, but quite honestly I think Rafa agrees with your assessment guys, because we're now seeing El Zhar introduced (once directly for Kuyt, once for Keane, but in both cases playing the wide right role). Kuyt is a very useful player for a level 2 strategy, but I think the emerging question marks over his contribution reflect our 'tweening' status on the brink of level 3. You're exactly right - we need players who can retain the ball further up the pitch, and bring advancing players into the game to circulate the ball effectively.

I think the flip side of that is that Alonso has to take more responsibility to advance into these gaps and to play the simpler passes to players in space - to trust his team mates effectively. But again, how do you trust certain players to retain the ball in this way when they've demonstrated time and again that they're profligate in possession.

Brilliant posts again guys - really enjoy your stuff.

Nice one lads.

Going to that Kuyt at RB revelation- I've actually (quietly!) been thinking of how Kuyt would do as a wingback (with Skrtel, Carra and Agger playing in defence, and a left wingback on the other side- Aurelio/Dossena). I do think he'd do a good job there, but it's the issue of pace with him- he's certainly got the stamina and drive to be bombing up and down the right all match.

I agree to some extent that Xabi gets caught on the ball at times, but I don't think that's because of inability... in fact, I think he's his deftness in creating space in the centre is without equal amongst our CMs- the little flicks and turns he uses to create space for himself are brilliant. When he does get caught on the ball is when he's unaware of a challenger from behind or whatever. That's the impression I get. And yorkykopite, I agree. Xabi 'controlling the pace' of the game has become a cliche these last few years, but he's still got the ability to do it- and well. He knows when he needs to play a forward pass and when he needs to just take a step back. This 'safety first' perception (that he plays the ball sideways/backwards), I believe is going back to the attackers in front of him and their inability to keep the ball. We've mentioned Kuyt, but even the likes of Torres and Gerrard try to force the issue quite a lot, and that ends with the ball going straight back to Xabi and our defenders.

That's the reason that I wanted to see a playmaking type player in an attacking role this season. A Fabregas type, who can keep posession ticking over but further up the pitch- knowing when to pass and where to pass in that area is critical for Level 3 football (or what I perceive it to be). The whole idea of circulation of the ball may not be an end in itself, but if we take it as one for this purpose- the means to that end is a player who can conduct the circulation. We have Xabi who plays deeper, but we could do with someone with his 'prudent' mindset when it comes to posession, further up the pitch as well. It's why I have to admit, I was a bit apprehensive of Keane coming in- he doesn't seem to me like the player to do that... we'll see in time how his presence affects our attacking football. My hope of an attack with Keane in it is that it will be an attack brimming with quality players; speed (of thought and on foot), skill, strength and drive- and that quality will realise itself and the understanding between the players will result in good circulation of the ball. I (perhaps harshly) called Kuyt a liability to our attacking play last season... I still stand by it if I'm honest. But he's not the only one I have to admit- like I said, even Gerrard and Torres, in my opinion, try and force it too much sometimes- and that results in exactly the same outcome; possession is lost.

My hopes for our attacking players is that they'll quickly form an understanding with each other, and we'll see good possession of the ball in a position to exploit the mistakes of our opponents. I saw some wonderful flashes of one touch passing in pre season in our attacking play, but it'll need to be more frequent (and break down less often) if we're to take that next step into our development.

As you guys can see, I've honed in on 'circulation' of the ball completely- as I think that is a main area in our play we fall short. It's like hitting a wall that blocks off the opponents 3rd of the pitch to the other 2/3rds. As soon as the ball goes forward and we hold the ball up, more often than not, possession will be lost and won't stay in that area.

[hesbighesred]

I think there's a big point being missed here regarding Kuyt.

What one ability does Michels describe, not as desrirable, or vital, but indespensible?

Shooting? Passing? Ball Control? Heading? Pace? No.

"The ability to win the ball back is indespensible."

It was a similar deal with Saachi. Two reasons for this. Firstly, because the whole system is based first on pressing in defense, and keeping a solid shape in that phase. Passing football isn't the basis of level 3...defensive shape, pressing and defending as a unit is. Secondly, because your opponents are at their most vulnerable when you gain possession in the opposition third.

It always bothers me that Kuyt's deficiences in technique are micro-analysed, his every mistake highlighted, and any lack of technique shown as evidence of him 'not being good enough'.

Strangely, very few people bother to point out that Kuyt actually adds a significant number of assists that forward players very, very rarely provide. Think about Torres goal against City, for example, the intercepted header straight to Torres feet that led to a wonderful Torres run and goal. Yes, great skill from Torres, but how many forwards would have the defensive positional sense/awareness, and heading skill to win the ball back like that? SWP? Bentley? Silva? Give me a break.

Have a think back to last season, and consider just how many goals we got from pressuring our opponents in their half/near their own area. It was a lot, and Kuyt is and was a big part of that.

Look at it like this, all Rafa players need decent technique, say 7/10, and all fowards need basic defending, say 6/10. In Kuyt, Rafa has a forward of 7/10, 10/10 standards. Now, consider also how few wingers with 9 or 10/10 for attacking skill even manage to reach the basic level 6 in terms of defensive awareness, and then consider that in Babel, Rafa already has a high skill, little defence option.

Say Yossi is 8/10, 7/10. Now consider Michel's one indespensible attribute, and then ask yourself why Kuyt gets so many games.

Of course, I've no doubt that Rafa see's Kuyt's weaknesses too, but then look at Keane. Here s a player more like 8/10, 8/10. In him we have our more attack minded version of Kuyt already, but I pretty much guarantee that Kuyt will still have a place in tougher games and in Europe. I think the day Rafa decides Kuyt is indespensible will be a day when we have a forward line of quite staggering ability, mentality and depth, because in terms of our WHOLE system, not just the rather small 'need for hugely explosive/imaginative attack' side of the game, Kuyt adds masses of value.

Yes, he's at best an averagely skilled RW, though crucially he does NOT give the ball away cheaply, and he always gets in the right positions, and shows for the ball, however, in terms of the positional discipline, physical stamina, ability and most of all mentality required for us to keep our shape, keep pressing, keep tracking the opposition full back etc Kuyt is outstandingly better than the overwhelmingly vast majority of forwards out there.

Same sort of reasoning applies to Barry over Alonso, I think in Rafa's mind the extra two points gained in defensive ability more than make up for the point lost in skill.

The irony that is lost to many is that this actually makes us more effective in attack than signing more skillful attackers...because it increases that crucial ability of winning the ball back in the danger areas.

This is why I don't fear Alonso joining Arsenal. Yes he'd look good and play well for them, but is he going to add anything to what they lack? Is he going to give them that ball winning and resilience in midfield they so desperately lack?

Remember Real when they got rid of Makelele? Or look at England. All of England's best teams in Europe now have hugely strong defences and usually two deep lying midfielders, or maybe one holder and one more versatile one.

England? One box to box midfielder. Why on Earth we don't try 2 of Carrick/Hargreaves/Barry, with Gerrard in his Liverpool role and someone like Bent up front (no not a great striker, but the only one current English one who has proved himself capable of playing that role a bit like Torres), or maybe Crouch, thus exploiting the wealth of players we have who could play in the 3...Rooney, Cole, Agbonlahor, Young, Bentley, Gerrard, Lampard etc etc etc.

Anyway, I think you see what I'm getting at here. You can have all the great attackers you want and it doesn't mean anything if you can't first win the ball back, and second keep the ball out of your own net. On the flip side, if you can win the ball back off your opponents, assuming your side has a reasonable level of technique, you can still play some probing, possession football, and you only need one or two truly penetrative players to do the damage.

Of course the ideal is to have a squad full of players who can do both to a high enough standard, but then to my mind Rafa's signings, and the way our youngsters play, suggests that this is very much the direction we are heading in anyway.

------------------

Roy:

Regarding that science article, I've said many times that one drawback of our system, especially the high defensive line, is that on the rare occasions it is breached, you tend to leave the opponent relatively simple chances. Reina is top in one on one situations, but it is true that most of the chances we give up are very good ones, because they tend to be on on ones, set-pieces or from defensive mistakes.

I doubt we concede a greater number of these kind of chances than anyone else, but they make up a far greater proportion of the chances we do concede, so it appears we have a weakness where actually we don't. That said, our set-piece defending was poor last year, although I think that had a lot to do with how much we were forced to rotate our defence, and that partnering Hyppia and Carra means we have to defend deeper, in a style that is no longer our favourite.

For example, we don't tend to let opponents have a lot of shots from 25 yards, nor do we let opponents have a lot of crosses. A lower proportion of these chances end in goals than one on ones or from mistakes, so you can see how other teams might give up a lot more overall shots while still conceding similar or less.

 

[BazC]

Fair points there hesbighesred. I do like Kuyt and his hard work in attack (the first goal of last season was all his doing- even though it was an own goal, it was a lost cause, and Kuyt busted a gut to get the ball back into the danger area when it was about to go out- that's the example I always think of when thinking about Kuyt and his contributions to our team).

You put your finger right on it though, when you say Kuyt will only be left out the team when the attack is full of top players. Arguably, it should be now. Torres, Gerrard and Keane should start as much as possible, and I believe Babel should do as well. And there's Yossi as well who I believe has the ability to be a good starter for us as well if playing regularly. Kuyt has got the ability to win the ball back- but we need a player who can do that and move the ball on intelligently. It's the reason we sold Sissoko- Mascherano came in and was not only good at tackling and winning the ball, but then moving it on. With Keane, I see we've got the hard work that Kuyt brings to the table, but also the ability to make better use of the good vision and positional sense. I think Kuyt has got good vision and understanding, but he doesn't make it count as he should.

As Roy points out above- he looks at the game slightly through a defensive and organised lens because of his past exploits as a centre half. Well in my personal experiences I've mostly been in attacking positions... and as such, appreciate the top attacking play most of all. And the top attacking teams are able to keep the ball in dangerous areas. Something I just don't think we're able to do at the moment. I have highlighted and emphasised Kuyt, but I also mentioned 2 of the best attacking players in the world- which seems counter-intuitive. But, I believe that Torres and Gerrard are players who have the ability to play in a fearsome attack- not just a counter attacking one. Kuyt on the other hand, is a player who will make way when our attacking play steps up a level. Just as how Riise has been brushed aside when our fullbacks needed to be more rounded (defensively and in attack), Kuyt will get overlooked when our attacking play steps up a level.

[royhendo]

This debate is brilliant gents - really enjoying it (sorry I'll stop saying that cos it's boring after a while eh? haha...)

Anyway, a few themes have come into the Level 3 equation here, and I'm not sure they're strictly correct (from a pedant's point of view re Michels, Sacchi, and the like anyway).

First up, Baz's point about a modern playmaker in the Fabregas mould is interesting and it corresponds to Jonathan Wilson's notion that players in the mould of Riquelme 'fantasista' (with the creativity and none of the graft) are on the decline. Fabregas is clearly an example of the kind of player he describes in his book - a creative player who can work within a structured tactical framework and do the 'team efficient' things as well as he does the unexpected creative things.

One key distinction in the Michels/Sacchi model, however, is that every player on the pitch ought ideally to fit that bill (hence the need for frightening levels of quality in depth to play that kind of football consistently). Sacchi seems to express it most eloquently and I know you've looked into that in a lot of depth HesBigHesRed. As well as the defensive orchestration when out of possession though, there's the idea that each player is capable of being a distinct strategic decision maker.

The idea that all play be channelled through a single 'conduit' is anathema to Sacchi, and he's pretty scathing in his criticism of 'specialists' on the pitch, and specifically the use of Makelele when he was Director of Football at Real Madrid. Wilson develops that theme as the book goes on, doesn't he, so we end up with the notion from Andy Roxburgh that we'll eventually see most sides play a 4-6-0, with all the forward 6 being flexible enough to interchange and so forth.

But that's off topic, sorry...

Back to Dirky boy - that's where yorky and Baz were persuasive for me HBHR - the idea that while he's a 10/10 at regaining possession, he's below average at retaining possession when we need to circulate the ball. RM emphasises that the ability to regain the ball is indispensable, but only with the earlier stated assumption that player must have the quality to fit the tactical framework, which for me includes technique at a level that offers free unencumbered choices to a player when he has the ball, or is about to receive the ball.

Dirk is a bit of a double edged sword on this front. He kind of encapsulates the teetering balance of our tweening status for me, cos some days his confidence emerges and he looks like a player when we have the ball, whereas mostly he's lauded for his work rate and defensive shift, but looks a little limited when we have the ball.

As I say, all the evidence points to the shift we want to make and maybe I'm looking too hard for evidence to support my little 'thesis', but us seeing more of El Zhar is significant I think.

[hesbighesred]

Yes very good post again Baz, lots of good points and areas for discussion.

Re: Kuyt, agree with most of the above, although I'd say imagination and retention are two seperate things that must be considered. Kuyt ma not be imaginative, but the reason he's picked ahead of Benyoun, and why he'll be kept in the squad where a Sissoko gets sold, is that he doesn't give it away cheaply either. Just as Michel's describes ball winners as indespensible, people who give it away in risky areas are huge liabilites, regardless of skill.

I can see the limitations of Kuyt, and even agree that there is perhaps a height of attacking play we can't reach with him, but what I hate is the facile assumption that all it needs is a more skillful player in his role...without considering what we'd LOSE if we picked the wrong type of skillful player.

For example, if it were just skill, wouldn't we expct a noticable improvement in our chane creation with Benayoun in his place? Now, I really like Benayoun, but did we really ever look a significantly better side with him in Kuyt's place? Futhermore, did we look noticably weaker in defence on Benayoun's flank? I think it's fair to say no to the first and yes on the second.

So, any improvement must have a decent level of defensive ability.

Hence Keane, and I fullly agree he is upgrade on Kuyt, and you can see that with him we gain plenty on goal threat, imagination, pace, dribbling, whilst actually losing very little on the other side. That we're looking for left sided players also suggests that this is the case.

I really hope to see this as our common prem attack, once our centre mids are back:

              Torres

Babel    Gerrard  Keane

I see that line up having enough to rip most defences to pieces, but still matching them for effort and physique. However, in this scenario I still think Kuyt makes a bloody nice option on the bench. We're 1/2-0 up, not uch time left, they've just thrown on another attacker/wide man, maybe trying to exploit Babel and Dossena...Who you gonna call? Can't see much getting past an off-the-bench Kuyt, and he's stil plenty good enough, especially against a tiring defence, that this wouldn't be as negative a move as, say, bringing on Aurelio might be.

Also, some teams like Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd...and especially in Europe, have defensive lines who are far too skilful to be left unharried. In these games I think Kuyt is likely, and rightly so, to start .

As a result, I think we'd need at least one more Keane type for Kuyt to be relegated to a squad role only, as I'd be tempted to pick him ahead of Babel in these kind of games (although Downing or a Barry could be that player). I would think that would also make Benayoun's place very vulnerable.

That said, I certainly think Kuyt is like a 'luxury' player in reverse for many prem games. I don't want to see him start against Boro for example (i'd like Plessis and Alonso behind the four I mentioned)...or in other games where pressuring their CB's and regaining the possession isn't quite such an issue. Many prem CB's ad FB's are simply not comfortable enough on the ball to need a Kuyt to pressure them. Some prem sides don't even have an interest in defenders doing anything but hoofing it.

As a final point though I would be interested to see the Degen/Kuyt line up. I don't like Kuyt as a RB idea...not quite enough pace, and would he be able to keep position in a line of 4? You also lose the benifit of his fantastic stamina when closing down...like Sissoko only more reliable, Kuyt is best used defensively as something of a wrecking ball...he needs to be closing people down to be effective, wheras a FB has to hold his position for as long as possible.

However, I do really like the idea of pairing him with Degen. Kuyt's extra defense could cover for Degen's slight lick of defensive reliability, wheras Degen's pace and ability to bomb forward would mean a player who can keep it simple, play further inside and keep offering himself for the ball, especially one who can cover if Degen gets caught way to far up the field...namely Kuyt, would be valuable again.

I would rather have Arbeloa/Keane (namely two players who can do both), as a first choice, but I could honestly see Kuyt/Degen having a similar overall effect as something like Carra/Quaresma, only at a much lower cost and risk.

[hesbighesred]

The idea that all play be channelled through a single 'conduit' is anathema to Sacchi.

And this is where, I completely agree, Kuyt is a weak link. Saachi talks about having 11 playmakers, but of course he means this as on top of the defensive side. If you've got to choose between playmaker who can't defend versus mr reliable but not imaginative who defends well, then you pick the latter. Most sides are through choice or design essentialy just a blend of those two types.

This is where Keane is different...there is the type of forward who can competely dictate play, yet have all the skills to let others dictate play too. Perhaps even more important, what he really has that Kuyt really doesn't is that ability to break the rules at the right times.

In fact, scratch the whole playmaking thing, right there. The whole point of the huge drilling, organisation, all that stuff that is easily mistaken for repetitive, mechanical and stifling, is actually very much like martial arts drills. You do the drills so that all the moves become instinctive. When they are all instinctive, only then are you able to improvise like the serious black belts are.

In that sense, Kuyt is like a Brown Belt or something. He knows and can apply the drills as well as anyone else, but just like many great concert musicians are actually poor at writing there own songs, he just doesn't feel where the music wants him to go, the places that even the conductor and the writer might not have thought of.

Keane, however, does that have ability. Not in the abundance of some, but crucially he doesn't lack the ability to keep time with his band mates.

I think I have a really good analogy for this.

On one hand, you have an Orchestra...regimented, no improviasation, but still capable of thrilling beauty.

At the other extreme, you have Jimi Hendrix. Unbelievable, raw, at it's best untouchable, but also fragile, untamable, at times impossible for the band to accompany him, or for him to integrate their abilities.

We are, I would like to think, going for the perfect mixture. We want to be like a really good Jazz band, or perhaps James Brown. People say it's all improvised, people wonder at it's freedom, but what they always miss is that the individual freedoms only work when the group works within strict constraints, constraints that you don't see on the stage, like how all the musicians have learned the boring stuff like scales till it's become instinctive, or how much time they spend rehearsing the basic structures of their music so that when it becomes time to play they, like a school of fish, can all change direction in the same instant.

[Manila Kop]

Before I reply to anything else, two things I want to point out:

1. How refreshing it is to have a discussion about Kuyt's value without descending to the level of mindless frenzy and snide name-calling (of each other and of the player).

2. I have never seen so many high quality, long, well thought-out posts in a forum before.  Thanks lads, you are definitely helping me understand more about the game.

[royhendo]

^^
I'll second that, and right back atcha MK

[Yorkykopite]

I'm not sure that's true though yorky - he's guilty of the occasional 'dawdle' and it puts us under pressure at times when he's not on his game, no? Also, while team mates let him down a lot of the time, he's also guilty of trying to thread high 'low percentage' balls when it might be easier to go lateral.

I think he appears to dawdle sometimes because there is literally no one to pass to. The biggest difference between Alonso at Liverpool and Alonso at Spain is the amount of movement off the ball from teammates around him. Sometimes the nearest player to him at Liverpool is 15-20 yards away. What's more all Xabi can sometimes see is the number on the fella's back! My hope is that Liverpool can close the gap and play more like Spain - like Rafa's Valencia in fact. I think having Mascherano and/or Lucas in the team next to Alonso is helping. They seem to understand what he's about. Soon, I hope he'll have Agger and Skrtel behind him - for the same reason.

I agree however with your other point about trying to 'force' the game - hitting over-ambitious passes. Manila Kop and Baz have pointed this out as well, so we all agree about that. This isn't just Xabi's problem though - it's the entire team's (perhaps no one is more guilty of the forced, speculative pass than Gerrard). But, again, it's often something that players are cornered into doing for want of an alternative. That lack of really intelligent off the ball movement again.

I'm with those fans who want to see Alonso play shorter, harder hit passes (the kind he was doing against Arsenal in the Quarters, the kind he does for Spain). We hear the opposite a lot. You know, 'why doesn't Xabi send those 40 yarders out to the wings like he was doing in his first season?' Well they're ok now and then, but it shouldn't be the stock pass. The stock pass should be the five-six yarder to someone ahead of him in a bit of space. And, just as importantly, it should be followed up by Xabi moving forward himself (again, like he does for Spain). That's the only way to get him into the last third, which I'm sure is what we'd all like to see more of. He ain't going to follow a 40-yarder out to the wings. It's too risky. We'd be too stretched. But he will follow a series of short passes thru the middle. Executed well that would put Alonso in touching distance of the strikers.

And if you're a striker in a tight spot and you know Alonso might be around to receive a pass, you're going to give it to him - no matter how much pressure he's under. Interesting things would happen. 

[BazC]

Yes very good post again Baz, lots of good points and areas for discussion.

Re: Kuyt, agree with most of the above, although I'd say imagination and retention are two seperate things that must be considered. Kuyt ma not be imaginative, but the reason he's picked ahead of Benyoun, and why he'll be kept in the squad where a Sissoko gets sold, is that he doesn't give it away cheaply either. Just as Michel's describes ball winners as indespensible, people who give it away in risky areas are huge liabilites, regardless of skill.

I agree- but I don't think I gave the impression I was frustrated with Kuyt for not being imaginative. When he has time on the ball he probably will retain the ball well... the times he gets frustrating is when he gets involved in a fast move of one/two touch football- he literally drowns in that situation; his touch goes wayward, his passes don't find their marks, and even his decision making lets go sometimes. I actually think that's the reason why he just didn't work as a support striker- as he'd regularly be under such pressure... but when moved out wide we see him with a bit more time and less pressure- and even though he's slow, how many times has he skinned the fullback through skill? More than you'd imagine I bet... but, if we're to step up a level in football, he'll get right in to that pressure situation where he'll need to move the ball on very quickly- and atfer regularly watching him since he's been with us, I can say I don't think he'll be able to cope with that.

I agree that Kuyt has good defensive capabilities, and would be a brilliant option to have on the bench for it... but as I said earlier- I look at the game from mainly an attacking viewpoint- so I maybe don't place enough significance on that... rightly so for an attacking position though? Maybe. Rafa, at least, certainly does place significance on it though- and that's a good thing for the team as a whole.

And this is where, I completely agree, Kuyt is a weak link. Saachi talks about having 11 playmakers, but of course he means this as on top of the defensive side. If you've got to choose between playmaker who can't defend versus mr reliable but not imaginative who defends well, then you pick the latter. Most sides are through choice or design essentialy just a blend of those two types.

Not sure I agree with that... I know when we're at the ground we like to sing about a team of Carraghers... but that would just not work! Kuyt is like Carra- great grafter, has game intelligence... but lacks in the technical side of things- at least relative to his team mates. I believe there's an optimum balance of both types of players. Of course, you'll get top players who can do BOTH things- Gerrard, Torres, Agger, Rooney, Tevez etc... but I do think that players like Deco, Berbatov, Fabregas etc are just as important as the players who put in their all, but don't have the skill to look creative in attack.

And that's where I make a distinction- defence and attack. I said quite a time ago around here, that I believe our defensive play needs to be rigidly organised in order to be solid. Players like Carra and Hyypia are at home here because less creativity is demanded. But in attacking players, I'd like to see a freer more 'liquid' movement of the ball (what we've dubbed 'circulation' in this thread after RM) who don't have as rigid an organisation. I think by having a more creative player in the mix (in the 3 supporting Torres) we could move up... but that also requires a bit of freedom to express their creativity, and I guess that comes from how Rafa defines their duties and role in the team. I think it was about Arsene Wenger that I read who lets his players 'just play'... now I know he comes under stick sometimes, but his style of attacking football is definitely top class stuff- where they fall down though, as discussed earlier, is their lack of a 'plan B' sometimes.

That freedom in attack and organisation in defence should be glued together and brought into balance by our holding midfielders- Xabi, Barry, Masch or Lucas... this is the reason I like Xabi- because he picks the ball out from the defensive areas and turns it over to the attackers. And as yorkykopite points out, if the ball is kept in attack, Xabi will push forward and have a shot on goal or just add another option for out attackers to use to build up the attack. That's basically my 'black and white idea' of a football team- well organised defence, expressive attack and a midfield to hold it all together. Of course we can go deeper than that and delve into the greyer areas- the role of attacking fullbacks, CBs who can push forward (Agger and Skrtel in our team, the likes of Ferdinand, Gallas and Carvalho from the other top teams), attacking players like Kuyt, Rooney and Tevez who whilst attackers, are often found in quite deeper areas... etc.

[royhendo]

I think he appears to dawdle sometimes because there is literally no one to pass to.

I know what you mean but I don't mind that as much - just the way that in some games he's on his heels and seems to struggle to do what comes natural to him (getting the ball out of his feet). It's not a massive problem and it's been overemphasised by some on the boards (probably including me trying to rationalise the whole barry thing) but it did happen and when it did, it exposed the back four.

that's the only thing I'd say though - another spot on post.

My hope is that Liverpool can close the gap and play more like Spain - like Rafa's Valencia in fact. I think having Mascherano and/or Lucas in the team next to Alonso is helping. They seem to understand what he's about. Soon, I hope he'll have Agger and Skrtel behind him - for the same reason.

I agree however with your other point about trying to 'force' the game - hitting over-ambitious passes. Manila Kop and Baz have pointed this out as well, so we all agree about that. This isn't just Xabi's problem though - it's the entire team's (perhaps no one is more guilty of the forced, speculative pass than Gerrard). But, again, it's often something that players are cornered into doing for want of an alternative. That lack of really intelligent off the ball movement again.

I'm with those fans who want to see Alonso play shorter, harder hit passes (the kind he was doing against Arsenal in the Quarters, the kind he does for Spain). We hear the opposite a lot. You know, 'why doesn't Xabi send those 40 yarders out to the wings like he was doing in his first season?' Well they're ok now and then, but it shouldn't be the stock pass. The stock pass should be the five-six yarder to someone ahead of him in a bit of space. And, just as importantly, it should be followed up by Xabi moving forward himself (again, like he does for Spain). That's the only way to get him into the last third, which I'm sure is what we'd all like to see more of. He ain't going to follow a 40-yarder out to the wings. It's too risky. We'd be too stretched. But he will follow a series of short passes thru the middle. Executed well that would put Alonso in touching distance of the strikers.

And if you're a striker in a tight spot and you know Alonso might be around to receive a pass, you're going to give it to him - no matter how much pressure he's under. Interesting things would happen. 

totally agree. and if the plan is in fact in place and the theory is right, then our side will have enough players who fit that description to tip the balance to level 3. everyone's happy to receive the ball and take responsibility to choose the next move based on what they see opening up in front of them.

[royhendo]

Not sure I agree with that... I know when we're at the ground we like to sing about a team of Carraghers... but that would just not work! Kuyt is like Carra- great grafter, has game intelligence... but lacks in the technical side of things- at least relative to his team mates. I believe there's an optimum balance of both types of players. Of course, you'll get top players who can do BOTH things- Gerrard, Torres, Agger, Rooney, Tevez etc... but I do think that players like Deco, Berbatov, Fabregas etc are just as important as the players who put in their all, but don't have the skill to look creative in attack.

that's an interesting point - what is the 'optimum balance' that represents the tipping point to consistent level 3 football? a sacchi-style purist would argue that 10 out of the 11 players... no, make that 11 out of 11 of the players... should have this balance - to be able to do the team efficient 'basic task' that Michels talked about (far more complex under sacchi than michels it seems at first glance) as well having the technical ability to make correct choices when the team has possession (both when the player's on the ball, and when his team mate's on the ball). Michels hints at three attributes - quality, footballing intelligence, and the ability to make 'team efficient' choices during games - but that's not often been seen throughout an entire side (let alone an entire squad) during the history of the game. so it's an interesting point - is there a tipping point you have to reach before you hit level 3, or do you actually need it in all positions? i guess the ultimate goal is the full squad, cos even with Ajax under Michels and Milan under Sacchi, the lack of depth meant the intensity of the pressing game wore the squad out. in both cases the squad went on to more short term success after the original disciplinarian manager left and the 'shackles came off' a little bit (totally at Ajax, far less so at Milan under Capello, but still - in both cases the intensity was reduced).

I guess if Rafa gets the time he needs to see it through we'll see how far he's willing to compromise, or if there are any limits to his footballing ambition. I do think, though, that his entire set up (rotation, management style, and so forth) is aimed at level 3 quality throughout the entire staff, and in a way that's truly sustainable and not a few seasons before burnout.

I need to transcribe an article from 'Champions' magazine this month on here - it's about the decline of the libero or sweeper, and they cite Sacchi as the reason for its decline, but in the process you get some nice snippets on the Milan set up under Sacchi.

[BazC]

Yeah, I think that Saachi's ideas were of a theoretical 'perfect' team... at least in my lifetime, I don't think I've ever seen a team with 10 total footballers. Instead of taking the micromanagement view and considering the complete player, I guess I look at it from a macro perspective- and look at the team as a whole; how it defends, attacks and responds to the different siuations it finds itself in.

Also, interesting you mention the notion of "The Tipping Point" 

[royhendo]

great book that Baz, no?

you do get the feeling there's a threshold we have to cross though in terms of quality in depth.

the thing is, from our squad we have a lot of players who fit that bill already in my view.

reina - we've got a sweeper keeper whose ability to assist is incredible (fulham at home last year)
agger - a classic 'modern libero' with the potential to be as good an all-round centre half as we've seen in years
masch - and he's going to improve
alonso - when he regains what he's capable of and the players around him bring out his best
lucas - he's got the potential to fit this bill
babel - potentially anyway
gerrard - he's capable of doing anything he wants with the right quality around him
torres - as above
keane - he's got all three qualities in abundance

but even with those in our midst, it's not enough to tip the scales yet... but we're only going to add quality in depth and when the youth comes through, the tipping point will come at some stage. so from an analytical point of view, it'd be interesting to figure out what that tipping point is no?

tremendous book though really