Topic: MCOs - Multi-Club Ownerships in football...

[MonsLibpool]

I don't really buy the 'you have to do it eventually to compete' stuff either. Ourselves and many other clubs are doing pretty well without doing so even in the days of MCOs. One thing I've never liked about FSG is the whole portfolio thing, I don't even mind being owned by them I just wish Liverpool were the one and only thing that mattered to whatever group it is that owns the club. Ultimately, it all comes down to money though, they aren't going to sink hundreds of millions into a new operation just for fun, they'll expect some return on things. I personally expect it'll be a European side they look to buy.

I think an interesting case to look to would be Union SG in Belgium. Obviously familiar with them this season. Seems they've spent the last fifty odd years outside the top flight before 2021. All of a sudden they're seeing good footballers, winning football that takes them up straight away, challenging for two titles in two seasons and probably going on to win it this season. European football is probably a near guarantee under their structure going forward (plus a new competition meaning another spot), going all over Europe and maybe playing an occasional giant like Liverpool. Their fans must love it, surely? Maybe in their own minds it's better to be owned by a Brighton than say a Chelsea. Doing things 'the right way', not that I'd agree it's right.

Either way it feels you're a bit of a loser if you have any moral conscious about the whole thing. The team succeeds and you help change things in that league just so you can get a couple of better players in (who you can afford to lose the money on anyway even if it doesn't work out), or they do shit and you help erode the identity of what the club was. Maybe I'm looking at things in too much depth.

We have decent owners that are more likely to do things the right way. We're not Chelsea or City and it will definitely have an impact on competition in the medium term.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Hate it. Absolutely do not want to see us partake.

[thaddeus]

I really hope this all falls through.  I'm ambivalent to FSG but I'd put this idea somewhere between European Super League and LFC NFTs on the scale of bad ideas.

[Samie]

We wouldn't be getting Michael Edwards back if this wern't happenning. He will be running both Football teams operations, LFC and whoever else FSG buy.

This isn't like FSG are going the Abu Dhabi route of buying 8 diffrent clubs to money launder.

[Henry Gale]

Couldn't really care less. I just enjoy watching the odd game of footie.

[JackWard33]

If it helps Liverpool win and its within the rules I'm struggling to feel the outrage?

The article says 'the integrity of football is at stake' - feels like it was written in 1970. The integrity of football is an oxymoron.. the sport makes it's own rules (they literally human traffic for money and call it the transfer system) and lets countries buy and fund teams

It's fine to bemoan or not like the capitalist elements of football.. but by the same token we all wanted us to close the commercial gap United opened in the 80s/90s and compete from then onwards - its hard to get a little bit pregnant!
People say things like 'I'd rather watch us in division 2 than X' and I'm sure there are some cases where that's true (autocratic state ownership for me)  .. but in general LFC is only LFC because the club wins .. there are plenty of historically important clubs that never do and they're not having million person bus parades or selling out stadiums in Asia etc ... so we're always treading the line between being competitive and doing the right thing
It's just tough to see us having a feeder club as a bridge too far?!

[thejbs]

Are we really comparing transfers to human trafficking now?

[Fromola]

It's ultimately an FSG thing rather than an LFC thing. I don't care for it but these ownership groups are going down that route.

If f FSG have a controlling interest in a club in somewhere like Belgium and run the club successfully (like the Brighton owner) then it gives us the chance to loan players there and also sign some of the best young talents from South America or the like and give them the chance to develop. Even back in the 90s United used to loan loads of players to Antwerp and had links with them. Given the restrictions on being able to sign foreign youngsters like Bajcetic now, it's beneficial for the club if there's somewhere else they can develop instead and potentially save the club a lot of money in the long run. Meanwhile we continue buying up top British talent early to develop at our Academy.

We're not a club who spend fortunes on players (negligible annual net spends) so we need to find other ways of getting good talent without paying through the nose for it, to stay competitive. We've relied a lot on Klopp's genius.

[Redley]

Tell you what...I did not realise how many clubs Abu Dhabi have bought

[G Richards]

I’ve no issue with us having a feeder club, assuming it is done ethically. We assume exploitation, but it could be a win-win.

The feeder club might be strengthened by the relationship. They might benefit from better financials, coaching, scouting, integrated systems, executive know-how, and better players.

LFC might be strengthened by having better access to prospect players from afar, and getting them into our orbit sooner, both at a financial saving, and also to coach and develop per our requirement.

If done well it could be win-win.

[JackWard33]

Are we really comparing transfers to human trafficking now?

Yeah but only for the clicks

Football makes its own rules is the point - so comparing it against itself 'football has gone to the dogs' etc .. is moot

[rob1966]

So, surely we buy Liverpool FC in Uruguay yes?

[jillcwhomever]

If it helps Liverpool win and its within the rules I'm struggling to feel the outrage?

The article says 'the integrity of football is at stake' - feels like it was written in 1970. The integrity of football is an oxymoron.. the sport makes it's own rules (they literally human traffic for money and call it the transfer system) and lets countries buy and fund teams

It's fine to bemoan or not like the capitalist elements of football.. but by the same token we all wanted us to close the commercial gap United opened in the 80s/90s and compete from then onwards - its hard to get a little bit pregnant!
People say things like 'I'd rather watch us in division 2 than X' and I'm sure there are some cases where that's true (autocratic state ownership for me)  .. but in general LFC is only LFC because the club wins .. there are plenty of historically important clubs that never do and they're not having million person bus parades or selling out stadiums in Asia etc ... so we're always treading the line between being competitive and doing the right thing
It's just tough to see us having a feeder club as a bridge too far?!

I've been reading this thread on the way home and this first line of your post really bothers me. Taking the money side of this out for one minute and consider the fans of this other club, you know people like you and me. Your attitude is basically Liverpool should take this other club over, exploit what we can (while staying within the the wholly inadequate rules which already do nothing to protect other clubs in these situations) say nothing of their supporters; who are ordinary people with a passion for their club and the community that this club fits inside. Can we just take the data aspect out of this and consider the ramifications of walking into another country and tampering with other people's passion? It is such a cold and analytical way of looking at things. Do you have any affinity for fellow football fans in another country, who will get no say?

As for catching up with United in pure money terms, that has never been that important to me. I should also say as well that as a club we have had many a poor spell throughout the years, there was a time when we were in the second division. We still survived though, despite hard times as clubs do. It doesn't have to be like this, and even if you consider there is no other choice there is always something else. It's just a harder path and perhaps takes a different direction from FSG.

[Mark Walters]

I've been reading this thread on the way home and this first line of your post really bothers me. Taking the money side of this out for one minute and consider the fans of this other club, you know people like you and me. Your attitude is basically Liverpool should take this other club over, exploit what we can (while staying within the the wholly inadequate rules which already do nothing to protect other clubs in these situations) say nothing of their supporters; who are ordinary people with a passion for their club and the community that this club fits inside. Can we just take the data aspect out of this and consider the ramifications of walking into another country and tampering with other people's passion? It is such a cold and analytical way of looking at things. Do you have any affinity for fellow football fans in another country, who will get no say?

As for catching up with United in pure money terms, that has never been that important to me. I should also say as well that as a club we have had many a poor spell throughout the years, there was a time when we were in the second division. We still survived though, despite hard times as clubs do. It doesn't have to be like this, and even if you consider there is no other choice there is always something else. It's just a harder path and perhaps takes a different direction from FSG.

Sorry I got as far as "tampering with other people's passion" and had to comment. Did FSG tamper with your passion? Because our owners "walked into another country" when they bought us.

[jillcwhomever]

Sorry I got as far as "tampering with other people's passion" and had to comment. Did FSG tamper with your passion? Because our owners "walked into another country" when they bought us.

Exploiting another club is completely different, especially considering our own situation at the time.

[MonsLibpool]

Exploiting another club is completely different, especially considering our own situation at the time.

It can be a win-win for both clubs. That's why I personally prefer a smaller club that we can help improve. That's definitely not exploitation.

Also, FSG only invest for value. Of course, they'll want the club to improve which is not a bad thing

[Peabee]

We already own Everton.

[Kloppage Time]

Install Pep Lynders as manager and put Kelleher in goal and it could be interesting

[Redley]

I've been reading this thread on the way home and this first line of your post really bothers me. Taking the money side of this out for one minute and consider the fans of this other club, you know people like you and me. Your attitude is basically Liverpool should take this other club over, exploit what we can (while staying within the the wholly inadequate rules which already do nothing to protect other clubs in these situations) say nothing of their supporters; who are ordinary people with a passion for their club and the community that this club fits inside. Can we just take the data aspect out of this and consider the ramifications of walking into another country and tampering with other people's passion? It is such a cold and analytical way of looking at things. Do you have any affinity for fellow football fans in another country, who will get no say?

As for catching up with United in pure money terms, that has never been that important to me. I should also say as well that as a club we have had many a poor spell throughout the years, there was a time when we were in the second division. We still survived though, despite hard times as clubs do. It doesn't have to be like this, and even if you consider there is no other choice there is always something else. It's just a harder path and perhaps takes a different direction from FSG.

How would it impact how you support your club?

[Chavasse1917]

 I don't think it would impact in the slightest how most of us would support Liverpool.  We all want the team to be successful, competitive and challenging for the major trophies. If having a "feeder" club as a place for us to bring in young players from, for example, South America and polishing up those of our own home grown academy lads, then there is clearly a benefit in taking over another club.

I do however have sympathy with Jill's comments, particularly as a large proportion of our DNA as Liverpool fans is that we have a certain moral way of following football and it is not "win at all costs, sod the rest of you".  To take France as an example, to totally absorb clubs of the size and history of Bordeaux, Auxerre and St Etienne would be wrong. "Les Verts" have been my French team (of sorts) since 1977 because of that great night at Anfield and I have been to the Geoffroy-Guichard. Their passion is pretty intense, despite presently being in Ligue 2. They mostly have a soft spot for Liverpool, there were photos of us in their museum when I was last there. That passion would I am sure turn to anger if we "bought" them.

Having said that, a small club that has never had success, perhaps like Paris FC or Dieppe, may take a different attitude if for the first time they became a side that actually challenged for honours.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

I've been reading this thread on the way home and this first line of your post really bothers me. Taking the money side of this out for one minute and consider the fans of this other club, you know people like you and me. Your attitude is basically Liverpool should take this other club over, exploit what we can (while staying within the the wholly inadequate rules which already do nothing to protect other clubs in these situations) say nothing of their supporters; who are ordinary people with a passion for their club and the community that this club fits inside. Can we just take the data aspect out of this and consider the ramifications of walking into another country and tampering with other people's passion? It is such a cold and analytical way of looking at things. Do you have any affinity for fellow football fans in another country, who will get no say?

As for catching up with United in pure money terms, that has never been that important to me. I should also say as well that as a club we have had many a poor spell throughout the years, there was a time when we were in the second division. We still survived though, despite hard times as clubs do. It doesn't have to be like this, and even if you consider there is no other choice there is always something else. It's just a harder path and perhaps takes a different direction from FSG.

My guess is there are fairly limited fan complaints from Girona (2nd in La Liga), Salzburg (1st in the Austrian Bundesliga), Leipzig (now a regular CL team). The idea that FSG are going to buy a club just to bleed it dry is naive. They'll look to buy another poorly performing club on and off the field and look to improve it in every way.

[DelTrotter]

My guess is there are fairly limited fan complaints from Girona (2nd in La Liga), Salzburg (1st in the Austrian Bundesliga), Leipzig (now a regular CL team). The idea that FSG are going to buy a club just to bleed it dry is naive. They'll look to buy another poorly performing club on and off the field and look to improve it in every way.

Plenty of complaints from Troyes fans and boycotts though after they've been fucked over to help Girona and City.

[Coolie High]

Very much so.

There's no imperitive. If someone is in favour of it, just be honest. They want LFC to be exploitative, and to take advantage of the financial 'doping' equivalent of the PL tv riches to take the piss out of the heritage of other football teams and culture in other countries.

Let's not go down the same route as other fanbases we deride, by laundering the perception of our ownerships decisions no matter what. Just be honest

Spot on.

[redtel]

First time I heard about MCO was when Man C were buying a team in New York followed by a team in Australia. It’s what millionaire owners do. It’s become a must do as more millionaire owners have entered the PL.
 
I can see the good points where some smaller clubs enjoy a spell of actually competing and playing in competitions they never expected to. However, as the initial article explains there are pitfalls ahead for some of these feeder clubs. It’s not a bed of roses for all the teams bought.

It’s going to happen as we heard from Edwards brief. He probably wouldn’t have returned if the attraction of seeing through this idea wasn’t offered to him. I don’t like MCO but if we are happy with FSG as owners then that’s the future they intend to take us on.

We’ve come a long way since we were founded in The Sandon Hotel, but still owned by rich businessmen as we are today.

[thejbs]

We should buy Aghyaran GAC. Try and unearth the next Conor Bradley.

[Indomitable_Carp]

My guess is there are fairly limited fan complaints from Girona (2nd in La Liga), Salzburg (1st in the Austrian Bundesliga), Leipzig (now a regular CL team). The idea that FSG are going to buy a club just to bleed it dry is naive. They'll look to buy another poorly performing club on and off the field and look to improve it in every way.

Fact is Girona didn't have any fans. Before entering La Liga, they were getting average attendences in the 4,000's at most. They have some history of winning lower league titles, but my local neighbourhood club around the corner in Barcelona is traditionally a bigger, more storied and better supported club then they are. Most of their fans now are basically Barça fans who've adopted them as their second club because Barça aren't winning anymore.

Leipzig didn't even exist before Red Bull founded them in 2009.

Salzburg is the only one which was a fully established and storied club in its own right. You'd have to ask their fans what they think about the Red Bull takeover.

Next up, we'll have the Liverpool B team stinking up the lower leagues, like they do here in Spain.

[B0151?]

Is it not just speculation they would be a 'feeder club'

The statement from FSG was talking about strengthening their position rather than LFC

Obviously we're always going to be the crown jewel in their football assets and I'm not saying it would never benefit us. Just that considering FSG own multiple sports teams, it's hardly surprising for me they are looking to add another football one. Even if all interactions between clubs with same ownership were banned I think it's something they would have done at some point.

I think Edwards is more intrigued in building a club up, a mini version of what they did with us, rather than taking over a club just to have it be a loan farm and developmental club. Likewise FSG are doing this to build another sustainable asset up rather than just for the benefit of LFC imo.

[MonsLibpool]

Is it not just speculation they would be a 'feeder club'

The statement from FSG was talking about strengthening their position rather than LFC

Obviously we're always going to be the crown jewel in their football assets and I'm not saying it would never benefit us. Just that considering FSG own multiple sports teams, it's hardly surprising for me they are looking to add another football one. Even if all interactions between clubs with same ownership were banned I think it's something they would have done at some point.

I think Edwards is more intrigued in building a club up, a mini version of what they did with us, rather than taking over a club just to have it be a loan farm and developmental club. Likewise FSG are doing this to build another sustainable asset up rather than just for the benefit of LFC imo.

FSG are investors that want value. The value of a club (especially smaller ones) depends on results.

Of course, they'll want the new club to improve. If not, it's a waste of money

[Redley]

Redbyrd own AC Milan and Toulouse and there doesn't appear to be any particular relationship between the two thus far, so yeah it could be that they're just looking to 'grow their portfolio'. There certainly doesn't seem to have been anything confirming that they're looking to buy a club to feed Liverpool.

Red Bull Salzburg is an interesting one. Won two league titles and no Austrian Cups prior to being taken over, and have since won the league 14 times out of 17 seasons and 9 Austrian Cups. So for sure the takeover has made them a lot, lot more successful.

[Mark Walters]

Exploiting another club is completely different, especially considering our own situation at the time.

How and why is it completely different? And also why is it exploitation?

[B0151?]

FSG are investors that want value. The value of a club (especially smaller ones) depends on results.

Of course, they'll want the new club to improve. If not, it's a waste of money

Absolutely, I'm just saying I don't think feeder club is the right term to describe what the relationship between the clubs will be like. If people are thinking of it in those terms, of course it sounds exploitative etc.

I hate to use the term but 'sister clubs' seems to be more of an accurate description of how these MCOs have been functioning

[gazzalfc]

I mean once upon a time we used Crewe as our unofficial 'Feeder' club. That lasted for a good long while. We had clubs we would do pre-season Friendlies with.

I'm sure we have handshake deals with clubs with loan offers. Clubs we are happy to send players to.

These models are what they are. Will be have Liverbird FC in America or take over a 3rd division Austrian team can call it Merseyside Red (for all those Pro Ev fans out there) and do the Red Bull model?

[thejbs]

Boston Liverbirds 🤢

[rob1966]

I'm on board with it if it's done ethically and broadly following the same model as FSG have done here. They need to not mess with the prices to get in the game, its got to stay affordable, but if they can grow the marketing revenues by tying in to LFC, build/develop an academy that allows local youngsters to get coached and possibly make a career in the game and open up the world to some of the current players, then why not?

I'd want FSG to get a club in South America, LFC Uruguay for example, and grow it and possibly find us the next Suarez or Nunez. There are so many talented players on the continent, it would be great if there was a professional outfit.

Of course if its nothing to do with LFC, then like the Red Sox, it's their business and nothing really to do with us.

[Samie]

FSG are looking at a club in Europe first mate. Brazilian club was looked at few years ago though.

[rob1966]

FSG are looking at a club in Europe first mate. Brazilian club was looked at few years ago though.

Nah, fuck that, could end up with conflicts of interest

[Peabee]

Nah, fuck that, could end up with conflicts of interest

I thought that's what Michael Edwards has said is specifically in his remit: a European club.

[Samie]

It's not going otbe a "big" or much well known club though.  I;m thinking like second division of France or Spain. Maybe top divsion in Belgium/Holland/Portugal.

[WillG.LFC]

So what's the difference to this compared to the old feeder teams or is this just moral outrage? We always had connections with the likes of crewe etc. If we say did something with tranmere and it gave them financial stability to survive then I don't see the downside. Unless I'm missing something

[Red Beret]

We see this in most privatised sectors. Ultimately the independent operators are swallowed up, so that they're all owned by a dozen or so mega-corps.