Author Topic: Not quite so 'Super' League  (Read 528137 times)

Offline Caligula?

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10000 on: April 21, 2021, 05:52:31 pm »

Offline TSC

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10001 on: April 21, 2021, 05:53:46 pm »
Expect the ESL will resurface with amendments.  It was the ‘closed shop’ approach absent relegation which was ridiculous.  Bizarre if it was thought that would actually succeed.

Who knows what the next approach will look like and/or if collaborating with UEFA will happen. 

*apols if late to any developments just catching up after work.

Offline Samie

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10002 on: April 21, 2021, 05:53:57 pm »
Why you asking? How much you've got?

Just checked my wallet:

20 quid
couple credit cards
receipts
points card

I think that's a good opening offer for John.

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10003 on: April 21, 2021, 05:54:01 pm »
Couldnt agree more.

If we're to generalise, I think it would be better to say that hedge fun managers care about getting a return on their investment more than they care about their investment.
And they care about making their gamble as safe a gamble as they can, including going down unpleasant routes.

Hence trying to set the club up with a closed shop big money spinning exhibition league. It's intention was solely to secure the returns of the owners of all the clubs, and it wasn't an accidental misguided move the owners made as a one-off. It was exactly what they were also angling for with project big picture (god these hedge fund guys are shit at names). They didn't accidentally not consult fans, and end up surprised fans were opposed. Occam's razor has it as that being the obvious reason why it was done without consultation (and likely rushed for while fans werent in stadiums to visibly protest)

As an American, I understand nothing about the cultural subtleties in this post, although my interest in hedge fun has been piqued... :D
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Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10004 on: April 21, 2021, 05:54:39 pm »
It's possible to think he's a good guy and still want him gone, as I do.

I see him (maybe them as a group) as very VERY naive. They're very good business men, very good at making money, very good at all the 'cold' things that are involved in running a football club. But the side of it that makes your heart beat faster, the side that can give you the biggest highs and then the next week ruin your life, that side of football - they don't get it, they've never got it, they'll never get it.

The reputational damage they've done is enormous and our fans will have to bear the brunt of it at every away game for years to come. That's why I'm willing to roll the dice and let someone else take the keys.

I understand what point your trying to make but their past actions have always pointed to the opsotie. That they are not naive they simply do not care, how many apologies have we had from them now and they have not learned a thing. You can only give them the benefit of the doubt so many times.

Can anyone honestly say that if we had not been successful football wise in the past few years would people rush to defend them as much as some in here have? Time will tell going forward but i can only see more things like this happening based on their pat actions which they have never learnt from.

As soon as we have a period without success more people were turn on them guaranteed.

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10005 on: April 21, 2021, 05:55:15 pm »
I don’t think anyone from USA really gets other cultures. Over there it would appear that the end justifies the means......and the end is to maximise financial return. The average person there tends to follow “winners” as if that somehow reflects well on them. For example, there was only one golfer for a long time and every other golfer was a loser.

Look at most of their movies. It’s about the hero and winner. Then there’s a very strange attitude to guns that somehow makes you more of a person.

In Europe we tend to like the underdog a bit more; not exclusively but a bit more. We tend to be more interested in the journey rather than the end.

So I guess FSG thought that we’d all be delighted that they would turn our club into “winners”.........by using a shortcut. I’m sure they are still scratching their heads wondering why we didn’t buy into it. Surely we all want to be associated with winners?

Maybe for us, it’s about the journey. It’s about taking on your rivals and beating them fairly and if we don’t beat them now it will be all the sweeter when we do. We cannot magic the bad weather away, but we put our heads down and walk on through the wind and the rain.
Having worked for  over 30 years with Americans both as part of the same company as myself and as external companies, they don't as a rule easily understand other cultures than their own.  Rightly or wrongly, they can be very insular or inward looking.  They don't see them naming things "World Series" when no other countries participate as anything strange whereas we would laugh at that a bit, and roll our eyes.  There's a reason why most global delivery programmes are run out of the UK as we are a lot more amenable to other cultures and ways of working and work with them rather than attempt to change them.  To generalise, the Americans only see their way as the right way, the Germans have too many rules etc.  I know it's not PC to generalise like this but the reality is it's oh so very true as we have seen.

It's therefore not really a surprise when things like this happen.  They're the "Land of the Free" (we're not "free" apparently, as we HAVE to contribute to the NHS) so even if they did consult anyone from the UK with football knowledge, they're unlikely to listen let alon comprehend.

At the VERY minimum, Billy Hogan needs to go and be replaced by a European or English CEO in my opinion.  It's the only way they MIGHT get us on issues like this goping forwards.  How good would we look if we hadn't gone for the ESL and watched it fall apart from the outside?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:56:56 pm by wah00ey »
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline stara

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10006 on: April 21, 2021, 05:56:19 pm »
A lot of people seem to want FSG out and to move to a fan ownership model? What happens when we need a player? Do we all start arguing about who to sign? The only way we improve on the pitch if FSG go is selling our soul to another, richer devil i.e. a nation state. I really can’t see fan ownership working in this country.

Its 50+1 voting rights. I hazard to guess that day-to-day operation such as player recruitment would be executed by Jurgen Klopp & his personel funded by minority owner.  That's the business risk of minority owner for his/hers share of gate/telly revenue. If FSG does not want that piece of pie, there are plenty of clever people. I hope that for example Government Pension Fund of Norway would chip in.  I hail for Viking overlords  :D (no, I'm not Norway, but fuck they already own 1,4% of all shares in the world, so plucky Liverpool FC should not provide a huge risk for them)
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Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10007 on: April 21, 2021, 05:57:55 pm »
Rick for the rikes, prick for the pricks

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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10008 on: April 21, 2021, 05:58:35 pm »
I would just like us to be competing  for the title every season.

I'd like us to be retain a modicum of what makes this club special. If we win things, great, if we don't then that is ok too.
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Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10009 on: April 21, 2021, 05:58:50 pm »
This is true. However , the PL parachute payments ensure that competition in the championship is stifled. Is that ok tho?

No its not ok, i disagree with how football is ran on a whole i would prefer are leagues to be like germany but it takes government to get involved before something like that happened. It may shock some people in here but i disagree with the concept of billionaires even exsit no one should be allowed to accumulate that amount of wealth and it gets mu backup that the same people exploit normal people in every walk of life including my own local football club.

Offline skipper757

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10010 on: April 21, 2021, 05:59:04 pm »
In the short-term, more supporter representation at the club should be a popular idea across the league.  We can push it at Liverpool, and I think we'll also have other clubs, authorities, etc supporting it also.  Can't imagine anyone prominently going on TV slamming supporters wanting more of a say at their clubs.

It'll be longer-term to sort out majority voting rights, fan ownership, etc, and we'll probably run into less enthusiasm across the spectrum.  We'll have to work with the right people and pressure the right people here.  In the meantime, FSG is probably here to stay.  Let's face it, if they sell up within a year, it's not going to be to a supporter-led group given the timing.  If the government implements legislation, it'd take time for things to go through.  If they left soon, It'd be a sale to another consortium or billionaire oligarch.  We just have to work with FSG (more supporter representation is a start) while pushing and preparing for further changes that would allow for, when FSG does sell (or if the legislation calls for significant changes in voting rights or ownership), that we have plans in place.
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Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10011 on: April 21, 2021, 05:59:12 pm »
Just checked my wallet:

20 quid
couple credit cards
receipts
points card

I think that's a good opening offer for John.

Well, I'm afraid that won't be enough  ;D
Rick for the rikes, prick for the pricks

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Offline meady1981

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10012 on: April 21, 2021, 05:59:15 pm »
I'd like to see Tony Barrett taken a lot more seriously in the club than he's obviously already being taken.

Offline stara

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10013 on: April 21, 2021, 05:59:44 pm »
Best example I've seen on this site yet of "Tell me you've never been to the United States of America without telling me you've never been to the United States of America."

 :D
50+1. Real FFP rules. Now.

Online west_london_red

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10014 on: April 21, 2021, 06:00:06 pm »
I understand what point your trying to make but their past actions have always pointed to the opsotie. That they are not naive they simply do not care, how many apologies have we had from them now and they have not learned a thing. You can only give them the benefit of the doubt so many times.

Can anyone honestly say that if we had not been successful football wise in the past few years would people rush to defend them as much as some in here have? Time will tell going forward but i can only see more things like this happening based on their pat actions which they have never learnt from.

As soon as we have a period without success more people were turn on them guaranteed.

I can’t speak for the others, but my reason to ‘rush to their defence’ is some of us have been here already. We saw Moore’s make a complete shambles of his sale of the club to the Parasites, some of us saw them for what they were from the beginning, others it took a bit longer but in the end everyone saw what was going on and we managed to get rid of them. I said it at the time and I’ll say it again, we absolutely must not get drunk on that power and think it’s something we can or should keep on doing. Those were exceptional times (much worse then the last 3 days let’s not forget) and it took exceptional means to get rid of them, it can’t be something we keep doing every 10 years.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10015 on: April 21, 2021, 06:00:35 pm »
The super league idea was a sham tho it was never about being competitive it was the competitive opposite to competitive. They have shown contempt for the fans several times its clear as day.

I don't disagree. It was a ridiculous idea.

But if they copied the current format and said we are going to run our own Uefa style CL with exactly the same criteria then how would you have felt about it?
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Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10016 on: April 21, 2021, 06:02:51 pm »
I can’t speak for the others, but my reason to ‘rush to their defence’ is some of us have been here already. We saw Moore’s make a complete shambles of his sale of the club to the Parasites, some of us saw them for what they were from the beginning, others it took a bit longer but in the end everyone saw what was going on and we managed to get rid of them. I said it at the time and I’ll say it again, we absolutely must not get drunk on that power and think it’s something we can or should keep on doing. Those were exceptional times (much worse then the last 3 days let’s not forget) and it took exceptional means to get rid of them, it can’t be something we keep doing every 10 years.

Me and you are never going to agree because i see what they done the past few days as an attack on football and the values of Liverpool Football Club and our city. Yes they never bankrupted us but they have nearly alienated a large section of the die hard support and basically did not care .

Could you have carried on going to games if we joined the super leaguei know i couldnt and i know many
Others were willing to turn away because we seen it as a betrayal.

Offline Andypandimonium

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10017 on: April 21, 2021, 06:03:55 pm »
The rest of us non-season ticket holders would then form our own breakaway group to try and take over the club.

O course, in a truly socialist fan-owned model there would be no season ticket holder. We would all be equal and get in to Anfield once a season. Vive la revolution!  :D

Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10018 on: April 21, 2021, 06:05:25 pm »
I don't disagree. It was a ridiculous idea.

But if they copied the current format and said we are going to run our own Uefa style CL with exactly the same criteria then how would you have felt about it?

I would disagree as i want no part in a league that is a closed shop no matter who endorses it. Jurgen could have said it was a brilliant idea for all i care i still would never back plans for a closed shop league for the elite.

Liverpool are an amazing massive club but what right do we have to deny other clubs the opportunity to become a huge club?
 

Offline Red Raw

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10019 on: April 21, 2021, 06:05:55 pm »
Just checked my wallet:

20 quid
couple credit cards
receipts
points card

I think that's a good opening offer for John.
Might need to chuck in the Casio ...


Offline plura

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10020 on: April 21, 2021, 06:06:09 pm »
Just checked my wallet:

20 quid
couple credit cards
receipts
points card

I think that's a good opening offer for John.

He might listen to it, depends on what he's smoking that night.

Online Fruity

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10021 on: April 21, 2021, 06:07:49 pm »
I would disagree as i want no part in a league that is a closed shop no matter who endorses it. Jurgen could have said it was a brilliant idea for all i care i still would never back plans for a closed shop league for the elite.

Liverpool are an amazing massive club but what right do we have to deny other clubs the opportunity to become a huge club?
 

You must have mis read me. I am saying It wouldn't be a closed shop. It would run on the exact same principles as the current CL but it wouldn't be run by UEFA it would have been run by the founding 12. How would you feel about that?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 06:09:42 pm by Fruity »
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10022 on: April 21, 2021, 06:10:17 pm »
It's possible to think he's a good guy and still want him gone, as I do.

I see him (maybe them as a group) as very VERY naive. They're very good business men, very good at making money, very good at all the 'cold' things that are involved in running a football club. But the side of it that makes your heart beat faster, the side that can give you the biggest highs and then the next week ruin your life, that side of football - they don't get it, they've never got it, they'll never get it.

The reputational damage they've done is enormous and our fans will have to bear the brunt of it at every away game for years to come. That's why I'm willing to roll the dice and let someone else take the keys.


Have you ever paid attention to how other clubs treat us now ?


Lets turn the ire where it's needed,we cannot afford to stay quiet towards UEFA with regards to FFP.

We're capable of doing more than just one thing at a time.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10023 on: April 21, 2021, 06:12:13 pm »
Having worked for  over 30 years with Americans both as part of the same company as myself and as external companies, they don't as a rule easily understand other cultures than their own.  Rightly or wrongly, they can be very insular or inward looking.  They don't see them naming things "World Series" when no other countries participate as anything strange whereas we would laugh at that a bit, and roll our eyes.  There's a reason why most global delivery programmes are run out of the UK as we are a lot more amenable to other cultures and ways of working and work with them rather than attempt to change them.  To generalise, the Americans only see their way as the right way, the Germans have too many rules etc.  I know it's not PC to generalise like this but the reality is it's oh so very true as we have seen.

It's therefore not really a surprise when things like this happen.  They're the "Land of the Free" (we're not "free" apparently, as we HAVE to contribute to the NHS) so even if they did consult anyone from the UK with football knowledge, they're unlikely to listen let alon comprehend.

At the VERY minimum, Billy Hogan needs to go and be replaced by a European or English CEO in my opinion.  It's the only way they MIGHT get us on issues like this goping forwards.  How good would we look if we hadn't gone for the ESL and watched it fall apart from the outside?


Online west_london_red

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10024 on: April 21, 2021, 06:13:38 pm »
Me and you are never going to agree because i see what they done the past few days as an attack on football and the values of Liverpool Football Club and our city. Yes they never bankrupted us but they have nearly alienated a large section of the die hard support and basically did not care .

Could you have carried on going to games if we joined the super leaguei know i couldnt and i know many
Others were willing to turn away because we seen it as a betrayal.

Oh it would have been the nail in the coffin for me too, I hardly go to a game nowa days (marriage, kids, pandemic etc) but league games against Barcelona really don’t do it for me. But I honestly don’t see any other owners doing any different, Moore’s side kick Coco created the damn Premier League so not sure he’d have said no to an ESL, Hicks and Gillette would have bitten an arm off, as did the Glazers, the owners of every other of the bigger clubs, those two at West Ham would have done it and so would just about every other owner. The issue for me isn’t the owners, it’s the whole damn sport is fucked, and FSG and the like are not a cause, they are a symptoms of a broken system, you can get rid of them but I have little faith that anyone better would come along, the current system of how the sport is run doesn’t create that environment.
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Offline PeterTheRed ...

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10025 on: April 21, 2021, 06:14:07 pm »
Expect the ESL will resurface with amendments.  It was the ‘closed shop’ approach absent relegation which was ridiculous.  Bizarre if it was thought that would actually succeed.

Who knows what the next approach will look like and/or if collaborating with UEFA will happen. 

*apols if late to any developments just catching up after work.

The Super League is already a reality. Only, it will be run by UEFA, and will have no FFP rules ...

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0268-1213f7aa85bb-d56154ff8fe8-1000--uefa-announces-new-format-for-club-competitions-to-be-introduce/

Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10026 on: April 21, 2021, 06:16:08 pm »
You must have mis read me. I am saying It wouldn't be a closed shop. It would run on the exact same principles as the current CL but it wouldn't be run by UEFA it would have been run by the founding 12. How would you feel about that?

To be honest i dont like the sound of it is too many games but if it werent a closed shop it wouldnt off been as bas. I like the format of the current champions league. Everyone needs to remember all these changes to competitions arent brought in for the fans they would be brought in coz the likes of our and uniteds owners are crying about not receiving enough tv money. These clubs earn plenty as it is the only way to level the playing field is for a germ model to be brought in or some sort of wage/transfer cap.

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10027 on: April 21, 2021, 06:16:55 pm »

Sure Bercow describes Klopp as a great man, a real leader and thoroughly decent man and has the best values. He points out the arrogance of  the club in ignoring the views of Jurgen Klopp is incredible.

Thank you, greatly appreciated. Top comments as well

Offline upthereds95

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10028 on: April 21, 2021, 06:18:13 pm »
Oh it would have been the nail in the coffin for me too, I hardly go to a game nowa days (marriage, kids, pandemic etc) but league games against Barcelona really don’t do it for me. But I honestly don’t see any other owners doing any different, Moore’s side kick Coco created the damn Premier League so not sure he’d have said no to an ESL, Hicks and Gillette would have bitten an arm off, as did the Glazers, the owners of every other of the bigger clubs, those two at West Ham would have done it and so would just about every other owner. The issue for me isn’t the owners, it’s the whole damn sport is fucked, and FSG and the like are not a cause, they are a symptoms of a broken system, you can get rid of them but I have little faith that anyone better would come along, the current system of how the sport is run doesn’t create that environment.

I understand were your coming from but our owners werent just invited they were front and centre of planning it. They also done so behind the players manager and fans back and that makes it all the more worse for me. It was shithouse behaviour from the owners doing it during the pandemic aswell.

Offline Qston

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10029 on: April 21, 2021, 06:21:17 pm »
I think your being naive if you think there’s no downside for FSG in that model. That’s not to say it isn’t a good idea for the supporters but to think it’s something that doesn’t negatively impact FSG that they would just go along with it is madness.

I don't think I am being naive mate. Take the super league idea as an example or project big picture. Being in a position to explain to fan representatives who have far more financial modelling available to them as being members of the board and there can be proper and constructive dialogue. With either of those proposals a fellow executive would be able to see the reasoning but then explain the fan perspective. Yes, perhaps I am being a little naive when it comes to ticket prices and so on but the basic principle would impact the bottom line because the intrinsic brand value is the fans. The goodwill alone would surely see a positive benefit?
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Re: Breakaway Super League
« Reply #10030 on: April 21, 2021, 06:24:32 pm »
It’s the nature of the beast.

I worked for more than one American hedge fund manager/owner in an earlier incarnation.

I discovered they are much smarter than the average bear, extremely analytical, and have an ability to focus like chess players. But the one overriding characteristic they share is that they are insanely competitive.

When Henry took over Red Sox he said he would make them winners. When he took over LFC – same. He delivered on both counts.

But one thing I also discovered is that they many of them lack what is referred to as social intelligence or emotional intelligence. They don’t know how they appear to others. They lack self-awareness.

I doubt Henry harbors an iota of ill will or contempt towards LFC fans. He would have been genuinely bewildered at the reaction to this breakaway plan.  Because people like Henry live to compete with others, not to commune with them, or understand them.

I don’t know what type of owner fans are looking for. But if they are looking for someone who “just gets us”, the billionaire hedge fund manager set is probably not the dating pool you need  be fishing in. 

LFC is probably of the top four football clubs in the world. So we can find the money.

But the money can’t buy us love.

That's a very good post.

I think it's a valuable insight, because I'm not sure many of us realise just what kind of people we are dealing with here.

Your insight into their psychology is telling, and something I notice myself too. I also see borderline psychopathic tendencies with such people. Some are outright psychopaths. It's what helps them step on others. It's what helps make them ruthless and efficient. They are also very tunnel-visioned. They will never 'get us' because they aren't like us, they do not share our social outlooks, do not understand them, and don't really want to understand them anyway. Ruthless in business? yes, but social conscience and awareness? No. Empathy? No. Emotional maturity and intelligence? No. Most of them don't even understand why their actions enrage others. As you said, it's a lack of self-awareness and wider awareness.

Without realising it, our society values psychopaths. It's no surprise that the job title that has the biggest proportion of psychopaths in it are company CEOs. Behind them we have Lawyer then media and sales people. People who get to the top in those things have to step on a lot of people, and you can't do that if you have much of a conscience and a lot of emotional maturity and awareness.

We have to remember that FSG are sharks swimming in a pool with other sharks. At some point, bigger sharks will eat the smaller ones, so you have to decide if you are that bigger shark or not. From the point of view of those who own the biggest clubs, the ESL move was inevitable at some point. If we can put ourselves momentarily into their mindsets, we'd see that. Thing is, their mindset is alien to ours. I doubt FSG and the other owners believe they've done anything wrong. I doubt Abu Dhabi, Abramovich or QSG feel they are doing anything wrong either. It's what they do. It's all they know. Social conscience, empathy etc are alien concepts they neither understand or want to understand. They see those qualities as weakness to be exploited rather than cherished values.

However we dress it up, FSG are sharks, but they've been tolerated because they've been our sharks and have brought with them improvements in the ground, the management, the team and the success on the pitch. Maybe that made them feel a lot more cuddly than they actually are, but this week has lifted the veil. Thing is, if we are to compete in what the modern game has come to, we either stick with this lot or we settle for another, unknown quantity of a shark because, let's face it, we aren't getting an owner with anything like the predominant values of the fanbase. They aren't out there. I doubt they exist anywhere. I know fan ownership has been put forward, but I'm not clever enough to even begin to understand how that might work or how viable it is, so I won't go down that road in this post.

All this was inevitable once the real money men moved into football. Football has been slipping away from what most of us know as reality for a long time. Sky were opportunists who saw a way of taking the working class game away from the working class, repackaging it, then selling it back to us at an inflated price. Sportswear manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and change kits every season and charge £100 for the privilege of wearing our own club shirt that was knocked up in a sweatshop for peanuts. The football fan became an exploitable resource to be milked dry, and all the sharks moved in for their piece of flesh. All ruthless businesses headed by ruthless people looking to extract as much cash as they can from the cash cow before it pops its cloggs. Sky sell our own game back to us with expensive viewing packages. They probably feel they've reached the ceiling of what they can milk out of the fanbases as they currently are, so looked to reach out to fanbases further afield via this ESL idea. It's just the search for another exploitable resource to tap into.

In some ways, these people are like a plague of locusts. They move in, strip resources bare, then move on. It's their way. It's what they do. It's also why we will never really understand them and they'll never really understand us. Both want sporting success on the pitch, but for very different reasons.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 06:27:10 pm by Son of Spion* »
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10031 on: April 21, 2021, 06:24:33 pm »
So when we are not in the champions league we don’t have much , if any, money for signings?

We'll have to buy from Preston North End ;)

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10032 on: April 21, 2021, 06:24:46 pm »
Crazy suggestion for FSG.

Think about how a decision will be received by the fans before actually doing it.

Don’t care about Henry’s video, it’s hollow - he would do it again.

They can save some face by signing some players in the summer though.

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10033 on: April 21, 2021, 06:25:25 pm »

It's absolute madness that anyone at Liverpool could make a decision like that without first gauging the opinion of someone like Jurgen Klopp.

Bercow used a lot more flowery language than that, which is his style  ;D

Look at you chuntering from a sedentary position.

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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10034 on: April 21, 2021, 06:28:35 pm »
Look at you chuntering from a sedentary position.


And a ruddy good day to you too, sir.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10035 on: April 21, 2021, 06:35:06 pm »
Jookie, would you agree that there is now a reputation attached to FSG in the wider football world that they will never loose? That reputation will then be attributed to the club as long as they are in charge. Is that not a valid reason that they need to go?

Whether the decision was made for the right reasons or not the good name we have as a club has been dragged through the mud by this. Whatever gravitas we had has now been sadly lost.

Personally I’m not that bothered what the media and/or other fans think about us. Grown a thick skin about this over the years.

What will be interesting is whether the episode has turned potential players/staff thoughts on the club. I don’t think it will do mid or long term. Players and managers are generally more than happy to be associated with clubs who have much more alarming baggage then trying to set up a Super League. The other aspect is whether sponsors have been turned off the club. Again I’m unsure globally whether this has caused as much furore as people think locally but time will tell.

I’m passionate about my football club when it comes to on the pitch matters. I’ve actually learnt with time that it’s probably better placed to be more pragmatic around the off the pitch aspects such as ownership , etc.. I look around and don’t really see ideal owners or scenarios at the vast majority of top European clubs. BayernMunich are probably the best run though also in a unique position of being the only behemoth of a club in big market. As such their commercial revenue is huge.

On the pragmatic side of things I can understand the anger with FSG. I’m also conscious of potential alternatives. That doesn’t get them a free pass but equally I don’t think their position is untenable. The key here is to leverage the momentum to get some fan representation at board level. To achieve this some bridges might need to built with the current owners. For me that would be a great outcome, or at least the best scenario I envisage becoming reality. We won’t get to that situation though if the supporter base is split between FSG Out, FSG supporters and what I suspect is the majority of supporters in the middle ground.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10036 on: April 21, 2021, 06:35:53 pm »
Crazy suggestion for FSG.

Think about how a decision will be received by the fans before actually doing it.

Don’t care about Henry’s video, it’s hollow - he would do it again.

They can save some face by signing some players in the summer though.


And keeping the lines of communication open with the others so they can pressure UEFA over FFP (which this was all about) & we can do the same with regards to UEFA.

Seems too many aren't arsed about that though.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10037 on: April 21, 2021, 06:39:14 pm »
We've been through the hoop of fan ownership once before and it's just not going to happen. It didn't stand a chance when

For context this is a list of the owners of Premier League clubs and their wealth. FSG just scrape into the top ten. It's from an article written last April when Saudi Arabian Public Invstment Fund (assets £257bn) and Reuben Brothers (£18bn) were trying to buy Newcastle:

Man City - Abu Dhabi Group / Sheikh Mansour. Net Worth £17.7bn
Chelsea - Roman Abramovich. Net Worth £9.2bn
Arsenal - Stan Kroenke. Net Worth £8bn
Wolves - Fosun International / Guo Guangchang. Net Worth £5.4bn
Aston Villa - Nassef Sawiris and Wes Eden. Net Worth - Sawiris £4.6bn, Eden £2bn
Man United - Glazer Family - £3.8bn.
Tottenham - Joe Lewis £3.7bn.
Crystal Palace - Joshua Harris £3.3bn.
Leicester - Srivaddhanaprabha family - £2.9bn.
Liverpool - Fenway Sports group / John Henry - £2bn.
Newcastle - Mike Ashley £2bn.
Everton - Farhad Moshiri - £1.8bn.
Brighton - Tony Bloom £1.3bn.

This is the context. It's why 'plucky little teams' like Leicester can win the league and Wolves, Villa and others are no longer struggling Championship teams but established Premier League teams.

I wrote these posts back in 2010 about the failure of ShareLIverpool and I don't think much has changed.

The biggest risk now is another bout of hopeless optimism. Yes, there was a failure of leadership but the main stumbling block was a failure to work out the financial model and do adequate research into the likely take-up of any fan ownership scheme.

It's true there are many models for fan ownership but none relate to our situation. The clubs run by supporters trusts in the UK are much smaller scale and are about owning and running a local team. There aren't any competing interests looking to get hold of £170 million in revenue.

Liverpool is worth between 250 and 500 million making the individual cash injection for any one-fan-one-vote membership scheme (based on the Barca model of 140,000 members) between £2,000 and £4,000. That's because we aren't starting from year one. Barca are a hundred years old and have built to where they are now. Quoting Barca as an example is meaningless. And with the current or new stadium that doesn't guarantee a seat and would then be followed by yearly subscriptions.

The German model doesn't fit either. They have the 50 + 1 rule that requires 51% fan ownership. It would be great if that were to happen over here but it would probably require something like the Kirch collapse to make it a reality. German football is fan-owned because the government stepped in. In the UK don't expect any government (red or blue) to step in to change the rules - especially if it meant reining in Murdoch in any way.

We need a different model and one that doesn't rely on simplistic and unrealistic arithmetic. There aren't millions of fans that will put in a few hundred or a few thousand. I don't know what the answer is although it almost certainly requires some kind of partnership with large scale funders (individuals or businesses), but I hope SoS are going into this with plenty of healthy scepticism and realism. Otherwise we'll be back here again in a year or two.   

I understand where you're coming from and appreciate the sentiment but Share Liverpool failed because they were over-optimistic and "hoped" that because the need was so pressing that somehow, something would turn out well.

All the maths was based on wildly unrealistic expectations and the myth that clubs like Liverpool and United having millions of "supporters" who can be tapped into for a few grand to buy the club. There are millions of people in the UK and around the world who will root for Liverpool over United when watching on their satellite feed, and who might buy a (knock-off) replica shirt. They might even sign up to a web page protesting at the ownership. They are not a solid basis on which I'd base any meaningful business plan.

The other major mistake was over-estimating the amount of money that regular supporters could afford. There was a lot of bollocks at the original launch about Liverpool fans finding money for trips to Finals, selling cars etc. It was always unrealistic to expect regular match-going fans to stump up £5,000 and dropping the figure to £500 just transfers the problem elsewhere - back to the millions of "supporters".

I've been through the figures elsewhere and this is just a gut feeling but my assessment of the available "market" for some kind of Share holding would be:

  - Existing Season-Ticket Holders say 25% would want to buy in - say about 7,500 people.

  - People on the ST waiting list who might buy-in in the hope of getting a season ticket - say 5,000 people max.

  - Regular match-goers able to find more than £2,500 to hand (a reasonable bottom figure for investment) say another 5,000

  - Irregular match-goers who might be prepared to stump up cash - say 10,000 people?

  - Non-match-goers who might invest for the kudos of being a Liverpool shareholder - say another 10,000

I make that around 37,500 people who might be available to tap into with an average of say £2,500 per person = £93,750,000

Not enough to buy the club out-right but a decent start. It could form the basis of a partnership deal with like-minded Liverpool fans/businessmen. 

Trouble is that's all based on relatively optimistic figures and they're all off the top of my head.

Personally I don't see the point in glorious defeat. In business I hate coming second because it means nothing - there's no silver medal. You either get the contract or you don't and if you don't get it you work out why you didn't before trying again. Just blindly going ahead with double the effort means your next failure is more depressing and more costly.

What's important is to look at all options as you say, but be brutally honest about each option's chances of success and look for an option that makes best use of the real (not hoped for) resources available to us.

It needs strong leadership and drive to push something through and a figure-head with the authority to make an impression at the highest levels within the club, in the game, in government and in financial circles.
 
I'd spend a few grand on a proper independent survey of supporters to put real figures to my back-of-fag-packet calculations. Who knows what it would throw up - maybe I'm wrong and say 75% of season ticket holders would stump up £5,000 each to help buy the club... or maybe it's closer to 10%.

I'm not talking about pessimism, I'm talking about proper planning with the intention of achieving success. More business fail because they were too optimistic than the other way round.

If a proper study showed that we could pretty much guarantee raising £50 million from the core support, we could structure our approach to the club or alternative joint partners with a proper prospectus. Having £50 million "banked" would also focus the attention of other supporters. Going ahead with the same old nonsense that we have millions of supporters world-wide and that somehow Liverpool fans will find thousands for their club will leave us back at square one.

The value of the club has increased since then and the idea a wholly fan-owned Liverpool Football Club is just not worth wasting time on.

There are people who have been involved in the fan consultation process who need to push the club into looking at fan representation at board level, not just consultation. That doesn't have to be reliant on fan ownership.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10038 on: April 21, 2021, 06:45:06 pm »
The two camps can fight internally in here but the fact is FSG aint going away, thats for sure. The FSG are not great is fine but the grass is not always greener arguement is also a fair point.

Remember whwn Rafa had a civil war with the Hicks and Gilette combo, do we want this again, fuck no but the owners of that time are and i do agree with the many are nothing like FSG, Polls apart in fact. Look dont get me wrong what happened over the last few days has left a very sour taste in my mouth and a grovelling apology on Youtube wont fix thats for sure.

The 50%+1 fan ownership i jumped at last night but as the dust settles i need someone who actually knows the ins and outs of how it actually works could lay it out for me.

The thing is we must take a step back and have a good look at everything that has gone before and voice how they can be improved, from LFC, Sky, Uefa and Fifa but it wont be sorted in here thats anther certanty.
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Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #10039 on: April 21, 2021, 06:47:03 pm »
We've been through the hoop of fan ownership once before and it's just not going to happen. It didn't stand a chance when

For context this is a list of the owners of Premier League clubs and their wealth. FSG just scrape into the top ten. It's from an article written last April when Saudi Arabian Public Invstment Fund (assets £257bn) and Reuben Brothers (£18bn) were trying to buy Newcastle:

Man City - Abu Dhabi Group / Sheikh Mansour. Net Worth £17.7bn
Chelsea - Roman Abramovich. Net Worth £9.2bn
Arsenal - Stan Kroenke. Net Worth £8bn
Wolves - Fosun International / Guo Guangchang. Net Worth £5.4bn
Aston Villa - Nassef Sawiris and Wes Eden. Net Worth - Sawiris £4.6bn, Eden £2bn
Man United - Glazer Family - £3.8bn.
Tottenham - Joe Lewis £3.7bn.
Crystal Palace - Joshua Harris £3.3bn.
Leicester - Srivaddhanaprabha family - £2.9bn.
Liverpool - Fenway Sports group / John Henry - £2bn.
Newcastle - Mike Ashley £2bn.
Everton - Farhad Moshiri - £1.8bn.
Brighton - Tony Bloom £1.3bn.

This is the context. It's why 'plucky little teams' like Leicester can win the league and Wolves, Villa and others are no longer struggling Championship teams but established Premier League teams.

I wrote these posts back in 2010 about the failure of ShareLIverpool and I don't think much has changed.

The value of the club has increased since then and the idea a wholly fan-owned Liverpool Football Club is just not worth wasting time on.

There are people who have been involved in the fan consultation process who need to push the club into looking at fan representation at board level, not just consultation. That doesn't have to be reliant on fan ownership.

Cheers Alan.
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