Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[oldfordie]

On the Corbyn/Starmer leadership issue one of the main replies I see to criticisms to the Tories handling of Covid e.g the UK having the largest excess deaths in Europe as well as the biggest economic contraction PPE failures contracts for mates, Test & Trace etc is that it would be much worse under Corbyn & Abbott. It came up in a Whats App group so I replied would it be worse under Starmer? There was no reply.

Whatever we think of Corbyn he was screwed over by some of his own party as well as hatchet job never seen before by the right wing press he wasn't a capable leader and he and his front bench where not considered credible for Government by the public. This resulted in Labour's worst election result in decades and a free hand for the Tories to destroy the country for 4 years. I think Starmer has changed the perception of Labour that it could be a Government in waiting.

Am no fan of Corbyn but he wasn't corrupt in the sense of screwing the system to fill his pockets. Ive no idea why Diane Abbott is being brought into the argument either, why would she be involved in test and trace?
Do people actually understand or maybe appreciate just how much money £37 billion is. someone compared it too a thousand years of Children in need yearly donations, all spent on a app Scotland managed to produce for £97 thousand.
Corbyn would have delegated responsibility to who he thought would do the best job. politics would have played no part am sure. he certainly wouldn't have done a worse job than the Torys.
Corbyn wasn't screwed over by his own party, many had no confidence in him for good reason so took a back seat, he appointed his close m8s as advisors. Communists. clueless.

[Yorkykopite]

The press told the country not to vote labour.

Same with voting leave.

People need to start using their brains

They were split fairly evenly.

Leave: Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sunday Times, S*n, Daily Torygraph

Remain: Mirror, Mail on Sunday, Times, Guardian, Observer, Indy, Financial Times.

[Sangria]

They were split fairly evenly.

Leave: Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sunday Times, S*n, Daily Torygraph

Remain: Mirror, Mail on Sunday, Times, Guardian, Observer, Indy, Financial Times.

One of the key differences being that the Leave campaign were free to lie however they like with no recourse, whereas Remain mainly stuck with facts. What Leave and the subsequent Tory government demonstrated is that democracy without an informed electorate is hardly functional.

[JohnnoWhite]

Beyond any comment that Jewish letter.

How come there's not a whisper of a mention of the expulsion of long standing active JEWISH members from this "now squeakily cleansed" version of the Labour Party led by Starmer? Beyond belief!! And not my Socialist party any more.

[Sangria]

Beyond any comment this. How come there's not a peep of a mention of the expulsion of long standing JEWISH members from this version of the Labour Party led by Starmer? Beyond belief!!

What were they expelled for?

[chalky52]

Am no fan of Corbyn but he wasn't corrupt in the sense of screwing the system to fill his pockets. Ive no idea why Diane Abbott is being brought into the argument either, why would she be involved in test and trace?
Do people actually understand or maybe appreciate just how much money £37 billion is. someone compared it too a thousand years of Children in need yearly donations, all spent on a app Scotland managed to produce for £97 thousand.

The point I was making was if there was a Labour Government presumably Diane Abbott would have been home secretary therefore at the forefront of the pandemic responsible and the general public perception is that she isn't particularly competent and her handling would have been a disaster. Some people are using to justify the current Tory response.

[JohnnoWhite]

What were they expelled for?

For criticising the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinian citizens over many years. Not a whisper of criticism from Sir Starmer and his Friends of Israel. There's a strange state of affairs eh? The world turned upside down and presented as acceptable comradely behaviour by that old Labour right-winger and fellow Friend of Israel Margaret Hodge recently declared as standing down next GE.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

What Leave and the subsequent Tory government demonstrated is that democracy without an informed electorate is hardly functional.

Been saying it for years, unless the facts are out there and lies are banned then democracy is a farce.

[TepidT2O]

For criticising the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinian citizens over many years. Not a whisper of criticism from Sir Starmer and his Friends of Israel. There's a strange state of affairs eh? The world turned upside down and presented as acceptable comradely behaviour.

Link to evidence of this please

[JohnnoWhite]

Link to evidence of this please

https://skwawkbox.org/2021/11/19/a-party-for-all-jews-labour-expels-jewish-cllr-jo-bird/

One of many expulsions these last 18 months - almost at purge levels.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2021/08/18/labour-wants-to-expel-a-jewish-member-of-over-50-years/

Here's another. There are many examples - just go search for expulsions of Jewish members from the Labour Party.

[Yorkykopite]

For criticising the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinian citizens over many years.

That doesn't sound right. Are you sure?

[TepidT2O]

https://skwawkbox.org/2021/11/19/a-party-for-all-jews-labour-expels-jewish-cllr-jo-bird/

One of many expulsions these last 18 months - almost at purge levels.

Skwakbox is not a source. It’s a piece of shit

Try again

[oldfordie]

The point I was making was if there was a Labour Government presumably Diane Abbott would have been home secretary therefore at the forefront of the pandemic responsible and the general public perception is that she isn't particularly competent and her handling would have been a disaster. Some people are using to justify the current Tory response.

Fair enough but they also said things would have been worse which I doubt very much. they would have to convince me Corbyn wouldn't have delegated responsibility better, they would have to convince me he would have put fools in high positions in the Covid response team. they would have to convince me Covid contracts would have been handed out to m8s and con merchants.
We know the Torys did all this, blew billions due to incompetency and corruption. Put bigger fools than Dianne Abbott in high positions to defend us from Covid. imagine Abbott saying " Nobody could have predicted the virus would mutate," this is school boy stuff, viruses mutate, why was this idiot left in charge so long, why aren't they ridiculing her and Johnson like they would have if Abbott had said it. nobody wound them up. nobody got them angry.
As I say am certainly no fan of Corbyn but anyone who thinks the Covid response under Corbyn would have been far worse is ignoring or forgetting just how pathetic and corrupt Johnsons team have been.
Corbyns reaction now is a different matter, he is blowing it.

[Sangria]

https://skwawkbox.org/2021/11/19/a-party-for-all-jews-labour-expels-jewish-cllr-jo-bird/

One of many expulsions these last 18 months - almost at purge levels.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2021/08/18/labour-wants-to-expel-a-jewish-member-of-over-50-years/

Here's another. There are many examples - just go search for expulsions of Jewish members from the Labour Party.

Is skwawkbox and canary where you get your news from?

[Yorkykopite]

Skwakbox is not a source. It’s a piece of shit

Try again

Johnno's right that a Jewish woman called Jo Bird was expelled from the Labour party. But it was for belonging to an outlawed organisation, not for "criticising the state of Israel" etc.

Christ, if that were actionable, Starmer would have to expel himself and practically every single member of the Labour party! 

[JohnnoWhite]

That doesn't sound right. Are you sure?

I'm sure. Go check out Jewish expulsions from the Labour Party.
See the two links earlier in this thread for starters.

[Sangria]

Johnno's right that a Jewish woman called Jo Bird was expelled from the Labour party. But it was for belonging to an outlawed organisation, not for "criticising the state of Israel" etc.

Christ, if that were actionable, Starmer would have to expel himself and practically every single member of the Labour party! 

What was the organisation?

[Millie]

I'm sure. Go check out Jewish expulsions from the Labour Party.
See the two links earlier in this thread for starters.

Have you got any proper sources, and not from them two pieces of shite?

[JohnnoWhite]

Is skwawkbox and canary where you get your news from?

Just a couple of links - there are others if you care to double-check/search. I know of many long-standing Jewish members who have been hounded. Can't be arsed to debate today. I know what I know and my late brother-in-law Steve a Jew of course but as solidly opposed to what the Israeli state have long been perpetrating against their own Palestinian citizens. His sister lives in Israel and Steve told her he would never visit her there - and he never did. God rest you Steve mate!

[JohnnoWhite]

Have you got any proper sources, and not from them two pieces of shite?

If you really want to know, go search Jewish expulsions from the Labour Party from any other reporting source then you call it.

[vivabobbygraham]

Skwakbox is not a source. It’s a piece of shit

Try again

Well, I've just found this after following Johnno's advice. Why don't you give it a try yourself?

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims

[Sangria]

Just a couple of links - there are others if you care to double-check/search. I know of many long-standing Jewish members who have been hounded. Can't be arsed to debate today. I know what I know and my late brother-in-law Steve a Jew of course but as solidly opposed to what the Israeli state have long been perpetrating against their own Palestinian citizens. His sister lives in Israel and Steve told her he would never visit her there - and he never did. God rest you Steve mate!

The above still doesn't satisfactorily answer my question, what were they expelled for? The original post, and this reply, plays on their Jewish identity, which does not answer my question. The sources you gave to answer my question come from skwawkbox and canary, which are two of the most notoriously bad news sources on the left.

NB. if you reckon my question sounds hostile, note that I asked essentially the same question to yorky when he gave an answer: "Which organisation?", ie. can you expand your answer please, preferably with a decent source. When i make a statement of assumed fact, I assume that I should be able to answer questions on the source and its reliability. I made such a statement earlier, and I can answer questions thus.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm sure. Go check out Jewish expulsions from the Labour Party.
See the two links earlier in this thread for starters.

I have done. There's no indication from your sources that these people were expelled for the reason you said. None at all.

[oldfordie]

I think someone went through all the mass expulsions individually a while back. could be wrong but was it 12? 11 for entryism, 1 for something else, nothing to do with Jews or Antisemitism. should have linked it.

[JohnnoWhite]

Johnno's right that a Jewish woman called Jo Bird was expelled from the Labour party. But it was for belonging to an outlawed organisation, not for "criticising the state of Israel" etc.

Christ, if that were actionable, Starmer would have to expel himself and practically every single member of the Labour party! 

Oh no he wouldn't matey. He's never yet offended his Labour Friends of Israel. So much for his care and compassion and that's one of the reasons I cannot be doing with Sir Starmer - there are others too.

[vivabobbygraham]

Johnno's right that a Jewish woman called Jo Bird was expelled from the Labour party. But it was for belonging to an outlawed organisation, not for "criticising the state of Israel" etc.

Christ, if that were actionable, Starmer would have to expel himself and practically every single member of the Labour party!

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims

[JohnnoWhite]

I think someone went through all the mass expulsions individually a while back. could be wrong but was it 12? 11 for entryism, 1 for something else, nothing to do with Jews or Antisemitism. should have linked it.

Oh give it a rest eh? Entryism? Can't be arsed any more when you come that shite!! Tarra!!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

For criticising the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinian citizens over many years. Not a whisper of criticism from Sir Starmer and his Friends of Israel. There's a strange state of affairs eh? The world turned upside down and presented as acceptable comradely behaviour by that old Labour right-winger and fellow Friend of Israel Margaret Hodge recently declared as standing down next GE.

Is that true?

When I vote for the Labour Party and when I lived in Council Estates and Caravan Parks. I didn't vote Labour when I got old enough  to sort out Israel or World Issues.

I saw a country divided and wrecked by the Tory party and most of their decisions directly impacted myself and my family. My mum had many jobs and had to work her heart out and it was that overwork that killed her at 67.  I wanted better for the country and now what are you saying?

What do you vote for the Labour Party for? Israel? Not getting into that debate, but is that more 'important' than people being shafted by the Tories?

Sorry mate. Not sure I'm seeing your point? Am I wrong? Should I be voting for the Tories? Is that what you're saying?

I haven't been indoctrinated into 'the working class' or taught to 'see things that we should revolutionised' - I'm just some random dickhead that's lived in as many fucking shithouses as you can imagine with a mum that has done as much as possible and tried her best to bring me up to care about people and to try and make this world a better place.

That's all I'm after: Fairness, decency, people treated equally and everything that we can do to try and make this world a better place for everyone.


I've had a few people say I'm not a socialist. And you know what? Maybe I'm not. I haven't been formally or informally invited to that club. I just want the best for everyone - whatever they do and if people struggle then my mum always said to me "Never look down on someone until you're helping them up"

So yeah? Maybe I'm not a socialist? What's the word for someone that just wants everyone to get the best chance and for those in shite to be helped up?

[Yorkykopite]

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims

Concentrate Bobby! 

Where is the evidence for members being expelled for "criticising the State of Israel".

[Sangria]

Concentrate Bobby! 

Where is the evidence for members being expelled for "criticising the State of Israel".

To be evenhanded in my questioning: what was the organisation that the member you referenced belonged to? What's your source?

[vivabobbygraham]

Concentrate Bobby! 

Where is the evidence for members being expelled for "criticising the State of Israel".

Concentrate Yorky

There is ample evidence in there of a purge of Jewish labour party members for holding 'anti-semetic' views which was the thrust of Johnno's post as you well know.

Your patronising and condescending persona does you no credit. My old dad would have referred to you as a 'clever alec' Is that your Oxbridge education? Or were you more redbrick as you're not as clever as you think? Second thoughts, Oxbridge is probably right

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Concentrate Yorky

There is ample evidence in there of a purge of Jewish labour party members for holding 'anti-semetic' views which was the thrust of Johnno's post as you well know.

Your patronising and condescending persona does you no credit. My old dad would have referred to you as a 'clever alec' Is that your Oxbridge education? Or were you more redbrick as you're not as clever as you think? Second thoughts, Oxbridge is probably right

I'm not as clever as you, but that seems to be a bit patronising.

[Red-Soldier]

Christmas FFS.........

[Yorkykopite]

To be evenhanded in my questioning: what was the organisation that the member you referenced belonged to? What's your source?

It was something called 'Labour against the Witchhunt'. Outlawed by the NEC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-59373343

[Sangria]

Christmas FFS.........

Direct your frustrations at johnno, who made the original post sparking off this discussion.

[Yorkykopite]

Concentrate Yorky

There is ample evidence in there of a purge of Jewish labour party members for holding 'anti-semetic' views which was the thrust of Johnno's post as you well know.

Your patronising and condescending persona does you no credit. My old dad would have referred to you as a 'clever alec' Is that your Oxbridge education? Or were you more redbrick as you're not as clever as you think? Second thoughts, Oxbridge is probably right

Yes, Oxford. Won a scholarship too. Working-class lad. Council estate. State school. Dad worked in the mills. Mum was a dinner lady. Died dad when I was a kid. There, you have my potted bio.

My dad would have said "smart alec" or "clever dick". (Not about me mind). Never "clever alec". That's crap. He was self-taught, but he got those things right.

He knew how to weight evidence too and how to spot a weak argument when he saw one  The stuff that you and Johnno have posted would have made him groan.

Any road, off now to see Part 3 of 'Get Back' (what a film!)

[TepidT2O]

Well, I've just found this after following Johnno's advice. Why don't you give it a try yourself?

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims

Thankyou for taking the time to give an acceptable source Bobby.

However, this isn’t evidence.

[SP]

The trouble with the expulsions is the only people interested are unreliable sources. Generally the only people commenting are those expelled, and there is the real risk of revisionism to further their aims. I don’t believe there is a remotely objective public source.

[TepidT2O]

The trouble with the expulsions is the only people interested are unreliable sources. Generally the only people commenting are those expelled, and there is the real risk of revisionism to further their aims. I don’t believe there is a remotely objective public source.

This is entirely fair and reasonable

[filopastry]

The trouble with the expulsions is the only people interested are unreliable sources. Generally the only people commenting are those expelled, and there is the real risk of revisionism to further their aims. I don’t believe there is a remotely objective public source.

Given I have actually been at a local meeting where someone ended up being suspended (and eventually readmitted with a warning to future conduct), and have seen various claims that it was only due to comments on Israel/Palestine, I have learnt to take a lot of those claims with a pretty hefty pinch of salt.