Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[TSC]

Cummings revenge today after number 10 naively briefed the Murdoch press last night, hence the front pages this morning.  All to attempt to switch the focus away from Government corruption.  Cummings is many things but he’s not the sort to back away from a scrap.

Given he knows all there is to know about cabinet from the leave campaign through Covid this spat could grow legs yet.  Johnson and his cabal will back off would be my guess.

[Elmo!]

It is not a surprise in the slightest to find out Cummings and Gove amongst others have kompromat on our Prime Minister.

It should be but that's the state of our country at the moment.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

That doesn't seem to be in the blog? At least not at the link you posted before? I think somebody might be having you on  ?!?

[TepidT2O]

That doesn't seem to be in the blog? At least not at the link you posted before? I think somebody might be having you on  ?!?

Oh.

Have I been trolled
Bugger.  Will delete!

[thaddeus]

A very good point. Something worth saying to anyone who is currently shrugging their shoulders.

You've fallen into the trap of judging this current government by 2004 standards when you should really be judging them by 19th century standards.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56846908

[Snail]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

Hope everything went ok.

Yorky's remark about Blunkett reminded me of Ron Davies. This was less than 20 years ago and you have the Guardian talking about a "gay sex haunt" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/mar/10/uk.wales. He had  to resign from the Labour cabinet a few years before that in similar circumstances. There is still a lot of work to be done but we (as a society) are heading in the right direction bit by bit. Although there is definitely a valid argument that trans people have been left out of that more general progress (maybe similar to that brilliant Hannah Jane Parkinson article in the Guardian a while back about how people with certain mental health diagnoses have been left out of society's embrace of the 'mental health conversation' - a really important read for anyone that hasn't seen it already)

[Red Beret]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

I echo Sammy's comments.

[Yorkykopite]

Are you a military Medium Yorky?

If called upon skip.

[Elmo!]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

It's already happening with the Alba lot. They started off just with the transphobia, but since the party launched it seems to have emboldened them and now you have candidates endorsing the view that gay people are more likely to be pedophiles.

I've read a lot of trans people make this warning - it was clear as day to them that they were jsut using LGB people to attack them and soon they would turn on gay people as well.

[Yorkykopite]

Hang about! There are certainly closet gay haters who would love to be able to 'come out' (to coin a phrase). It wouldn't surprise me to know that Alex Salmond was one. He's Russian after all.

But Jess Phillips is surely NOT one. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of her relationship to the Trans community. It's fraught. I do know that. As it is with many other feminists. But I suspect that the difference, though deep, is actually quite narrow.

But what is obvious is that Jess Phillips is a fearless campaigner for gay rights. This is the first story I stumbled across and is impressive (to me) because Phillips (like Tatchell) is never afraid to stick up for a principle even if the violators of the principle are often discriminated against as well. No doubt there are some people who now accuse her of Islamophobia because of this confrontation, because that's how 'stupid politics' works. In the age of social media she'll just have to live with that I suppose.

As I said, this is the first example I stumbled on of Phillips supporting gay rights. There must be countless others. She's great.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-philips-labour-mp-birmingham-video-lgbt-education-protest-muslim-community-anderton-park-primary-a8922226.html

[Elmo!]

Hang about! There are certainly closet gay haters who would love to be able to 'come out' (to coin a phrase). It wouldn't surprise me to know that Alex Salmond was one. He's Russian after all.

But Jess Phillips is surely NOT one. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of her relationship to the Trans community. It's fraught. I do know that. As it is with many other feminists. But I suspect that the difference, though deep, is actually quite narrow.

But what is obvious is that Jess Phillips is a fearless campaigner for gay rights. This is the first story I stumbled across and is impressive (to me) because Phillips (like Tatchell) is never afraid to stick up for a principle even if the violators of the principle are often discriminated against as well. No doubt there are some people who now accuse her of Islamophobia because of this confrontation, because that's how 'stupid politics' works. In the age of social media she'll just have to live with that I suppose.

As I said, this is the first example I stumbled on of Phillips supporting gay rights. There must be countless others. She's great.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jess-philips-labour-mp-birmingham-video-lgbt-education-protest-muslim-community-anderton-park-primary-a8922226.html

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying Philips is homophobic, or that all transphobes are also homophobes. There is a lot of suspicion that organisations like LGB Alliance are being funded by American evangelical organisations who aren't too keen on homosexuality either.

I'm also not sure  on Salmond's position - I don't think he has actually made any comments that would indicate he personally is either homophobic or transphobic. He does seem to be stringing these people along though and willingly. He hasn't condemned any of his candidates that have made transphobic or homophobic comments. HE is certainly tainted by association.

[12C]

Did you see COunt Binface is beating Laurence Fox in the polls as well. Fox has apparently spent £5mon his ccampaign as well (donated by some rich guy).

Who has links to the Telegraph and the Tory Party ...

[Dr. Beaker]

Sir Dominic Grieve (the ex-Attorney General) has just said you will always have these problems constantly recurring because Johnson is a 'vacuum of integrity'.

[Commie Bobbie]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

Hope everything went OK, Sian.

You're absolutely spot on though, I've sort of gone back into the closet (if you ever can) in recent years, because certain events have allowed people the excuse to show their prejudice towards groups such as ours thought we had made it and its quite clear we haven't. I'm outspoken on these sort of issues on Twitter because I can see where this is going - FFS we have a government gaslighting a nation against each other - to stop them going for the bastards in power.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

Well I'm not the 'traditional' left. I'm probably not the 'traditional' anything, but I have Gay friends - both homosexual and lesbian and it's not something that I even think about.

I value how brilliant they are as people, how much they lift my life and how much I love seeing them and having a pint with them. Just the same as all my friends. Just the way I was brought up I suppose. I probably come across as a total dickhead on here, but respect for people (Not referees, obviously )   is a fundamental part of life. If you have no respect for others then how can you possibly have respect for yourself?  Everyone has to make their way through this life and we all have good days and we all have bad days. We all have difficult decisions to make and choices that can affect others. I just try and make the best choices I can and try and think of others. Quite often those choices might not be 'right' but can people honestly say they are 'wrong' - everyone has their own path.

[TSC]

Liz Truss on sky news being questioned about Cummings allegations.  Response; “I’m focussed on trade deals not flat refurbishments”.

[OOS]

Liz Truss on sky news being questioned about Cummings allegations.  Response; “I’m focussed on trade deals not flat refurbishments”.

She's one of the few in cabinet who doesn't seem mad tbf, which is a very low bar. The Tory grassroots love her however.

[killer-heels]

She's one of the few in cabinet who doesn't seem mad tbf, which is a very low bar. The Tory grassroots love her however.

What? She is an absolute loon.

The grassroots dont love her. She is utterly incompetent and they know it. I was hoping she became PM because she would die a death.

[Zeb]

Truss once suggested that guard dogs at prisons could deter drones from going over the walls by barking. She's away with the fairies. That said, she's on Marr now and being extra careful to stick to her lines which include lots of ways not to deny specifics.

[Elmo!]

Truss once suggested that guard dogs at prisons could deter drones from going over the walls by barking. She's away with the fairies.

  

[Yorkykopite]

She's one of the few in cabinet who doesn't seem mad tbf, which is a very low bar. The Tory grassroots love her however.

Have you never seen the 'cheese' speech?

She's mad a'right.

[Wild Romany Boy]

I’d like to thank Sangria for his shouts about “purifying the left” because it tipped me over the edge and tonight I finally came out as bisexual to my partner.

When they’ve finished with the trans community, they’ll come for people like me, and it makes me feel great that I’ve got the Labour Party doing all their triangulating and focus grouping and stuff before they decide whether or not I’m worth a damn x

Respect to you. I know it's hard, believe me, but it's better on the other side. Solidarity.

[Zeb]

Thought a few might like this. It's how Liverpool's local politics has changed since 1945. It's by Liverpool University's David Jeffery.

Spoiler

[close]

If I remember the explanation (from elsewhere) correctly, from the mid-60s the Lib Dems started to eat into the Tory vote and ultimately replaced them in first and second place finishes while allowing Labour to come through the middle and consolidate from there.

[Yorkykopite]

That's interesting and well presented. It shows how Liverpool has always been difficult to classify politically. Its contribution to the rise of the Labour party was negligible - all the real spadework being done elsewhere - but now it has become a genuine heartland.

[oldfordie]

That's interesting and well presented. It shows how Liverpool has always been difficult to classify politically. Its contribution to the rise of the Labour party was negligible - all the real spadework being done elsewhere - but now it has become a genuine heartland.

It must be a couple of years back now but I remember you and other poster talking about Liverpool being a Tory city for decades, I couldn't believe it at the time, easy enough to check past election results. shocked me, how seats like Walton etc voted Tory or Unionist for years.
Facinating reasons behind how this came about (similar to Brexit immigration argument) Liverpool has a very unique history as it experienced different problems from the rest of the country.

[So… Howard Philips]

It must be a couple of years back now but I remember you and other poster talking about Liverpool being a Tory city for decades, I couldn't believe it at the time, easy enough to check past election results. shocked me, how seats like Walton etc voted Tory or Unionist for years.
Facinating reasons behind how this came about (similar to Brexit immigration argument) Liverpool has a very unique history as it experienced different problems from the rest of the country.

I remember my dad telling me in the 70s that when he was younger Liverpool actually had councillors from a Protestant party.

[OOS]

Truss once suggested that guard dogs at prisons could deter drones from going over the walls by barking. She's away with the fairies. That said, she's on Marr now and being extra careful to stick to her lines which include lots of ways not to deny specifics.

Haha, fair. I must have missed that and the cheese thing, I was comparing her to ERG lunatics tbf, now they are barking mad. 

[oldfordie]

I remember my dad telling me in the 70s that when he was younger Liverpool actually had councillors from a Protestant party.

Interesting, never knew about it to be honest, 3rd largest party in the city,  Netherfield rd and Orange lodge as you would expect.

[So… Howard Philips]

Interesting, never knew about it to be honest, 3rd largest party in the city,  Netherfield rd and Orange lodge as you would expect.

He did say it was a North End thing.

Mind you when we lived off Mill Street there was a Lodge round the corner and my mum would whip me in the house every time she heard their drums.

[oldfordie]

He did say it was a North End thing.

Mind you when we lived off Mill Street there was a Lodge round the corner and my mum would whip me in the house every time she heard their drums.

We used to stand on Netherfield rd when when we were kids watching the lodge procession walk past hoping to see it all kick off, 

[So… Howard Philips]

We used to stand on Netherfield rd when when we were kids watching the lodge procession walk past hoping to see it all kick off, 

I worked with an ex docker from Scottie in the 1970s whose Nan got sent down for pulling the King Billy surrogate off his horse on the 12th.

[oldfordie]

I worked with an ex docker from Scottie in the 1970s whose Nan got sent down for pulling the King Billy surrogate off his horse on the 12th.

I can imagine it. hilarious.

[TepidT2O]

My mum had a green coat...

Walked near one of the lodge marches and someone spat on it.. 

Pathetic aren’t they

[TSC]

We used to stand on Netherfield rd when when we were kids watching the lodge procession walk past hoping to see it all kick off, 

Think the Derry Club in mere lane (nr ground) was (maybe still is) a meeting place for an orange lodge/band or 2.

[oldfordie]

Think the Derry Club in mere lane (nr ground) was (maybe still is) a meeting place for an orange lodge/band or 2.

Sister in laws family were all into it in the 60s/70s. haven't heard them mention it for years so assumed it had all died out. nope. still have the big day out in Southport every yr, been going on for over 200ys.

[Yorkykopite]

It must be a couple of years back now but I remember you and other poster talking about Liverpool being a Tory city for decades, I couldn't believe it at the time, easy enough to check past election results. shocked me, how seats like Walton etc voted Tory or Unionist for years.
Facinating reasons behind how this came about (similar to Brexit immigration argument) Liverpool has a very unique history as it experienced different problems from the rest of the country.

It is fascinating Fordie. The Scotland division of Liverpool was represented by an Irish Nationalist MP between 1885 and 1929. This was TP O'Connor who must have had a large personal vote - he was a famous parliamentary character. But, even so, it was the only constituency outside Ireland that ever elected an Irish Nationalist to parliament. I guess it would be like SNP winning a seat in England today.

Liverpool was regarded as a graveyard so far as the Labour party was concerned. One of the biggest urban proletariats in the world but religion trumping class almost every time. Glasgow was the opposite of course. Most of that city's sectarianism was poured into its two major football clubs. But, politically, differences were sunk and both RC and Protestant came together in a united and extremely powerful Clydeside labour movement.

It's not that Liverpool didn't have a tradition of militancy, especially on the docks. The 1911 Transport strike is probably still remembered in the city today. But, even there, trade-union organisers would tear their hair out at what they regarded as the fickle commitment of the scouser to the labour movement. Quick to strike, slow to pay their dues! 

And, revealingly, no major Labour figure emerged from the Liverpool labour movement. Jack Jones was a Liverpool man, but he built his career and his reputation organising the Coventry and Birmingham car plants. 

[Snail]

Think the Derry Club in mere lane (nr ground) was (maybe still is) a meeting place for an orange lodge/band or 2.

We live not far from the Derry Club and the dichotomy between the name and the numerous poppies has always kettled my head.

[Zeb]

Jeffery, who is a Tory himself so salt as required, argues in his work on the city that Liverpool was only partly to do with consolidating an anti-Catholic vote and that by the late 19th century and certainly 20s and 30s it was much more tied up with Conservatives being seen to deliver on economic benefits to key parts of the electorate. There was a long period where the Tory vote pretty much followed national trends and popularity/unpopularity of the national Conservative party/government. Another of his arguments is that Scouse identity also shifted during the last Labour government to embracing a different perception of the city and its past and present. Away from him there's also some interesting work on how Liverpool's transport system seems linked to creating an identity which goes beyond older boundaries.

[oldfordie]

It is fascinating Fordie. The Scotland division of Liverpool was represented by an Irish Nationalist MP between 1885 and 1929. This was TP O'Connor who must have had a large personal vote - he was a famous parliamentary character. But, even so, it was the only constituency outside Ireland that ever elected an Irish Nationalist to parliament. I guess it would be like SNP winning a seat in England today.

Liverpool was regarded as a graveyard so far as the Labour party was concerned. One of the biggest urban proletariats in the world but religion trumping class almost every time. Glasgow was the opposite of course. Most of that city's sectarianism was poured into its two major football clubs. But, politically, differences were sunk and both RC and Protestant came together in a united and extremely powerful Clydeside labour movement.

It's not that Liverpool didn't have a tradition of militancy, especially on the docks. The 1911 Transport strike is probably still remembered in the city today. But, even there, trade-union organisers would tear their hair out at what they regarded as the fickle commitment of the scouser to the labour movement. Quick to strike, slow to pay their dues! 

And, revealingly, no major Labour figure emerged from the Liverpool labour movement. Jack Jones was a Liverpool man, but he built his career and his reputation organising the Coventry and Birmingham car plants.

Yeah assuming left wing militant workers all hold so called left wing views is a big mistake, life is more complicated than that. am sure many left wing militant workers voted for Thatcher.
I don't know if it it's all about religion, Catholic +Protestants, I think a lot were just against Irish Immigrants flooding the city dock areas causing problems and offering cheap Labour. I checked out the election results late 1800s-1960s even into the 70s after we were talking about this ages ago,  seems the seats further away from the docks went to the Conservatives or Unionists who campaigned to protect people from Irish Immigrants. closer you got to the docks the more likely the seat went to a party who would defend Irish Immigrants. (Bootle seems to be the exception, no idea why)  the Irish Nationalist seat was in Scotland rd, one of the largest Irish immigrants areas in Liverpool near the docks. it is complicated and am sure the Protestant and Catholic religion played a bit part in it as well, seems politicians used this to try and win votes.