Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Red-Soldier]

Because the opposite worked so well?

The party is dead, the two sides are irreconcilable. And the Tories are laughing their cocks off.

As it is, possibly yes.

I currently cannot see a future without a Tory government - how depressing is that.

[Bobsackamano]

The far left and left centre are honestly worlds apart in views I feel. I just can't see them voting for the same party anymore. It does indeed feel the party is a bit dead. This is such a bad Tory Government too.

The Labour party needs to split into 2. Like a marriage that just isnt working anymore its in everyone interests that this happens sooner rather than later.

The Tories are not going to be out of power for at least 8 years so nothing really to lose by splitting now anyway.

[clinical]

God, if only Starmer showed any indication of being left of centre, I'd be a lot less unhappy.

Starmer is just a noise. Nothing more.

[Red Viper]

Because the opposite worked so well?

The party is dead, the two sides are irreconcilable. And the Tories are laughing their cocks off.

Looking at that latest poll, the party is losing voters to the left so...

[12C]

The Hancock story is messy cos the contracts were handed out by the Labour/Lib Dem government in Wales. Kind of interested to see whether the constant news on corruption and Labour's angle of 'sleaze (just like the 90s)' actually starts to shape a perception of the government or whether it'll still bounce off a combination of 'you're opposing too much in a national crisis' and 'dgaf pub's open'.

I’m seeing lots of stuff starting to appear on Twitter saying that No10 were “very helpful” to certain journalists regarding information about Hancock.
Seems like he will be the sacrificial offering to show how strong man Johnson deals with corruption. No need to worry though because Hancock will no doubt continue lobbying for the privatisation of the health service making a small fortune at it.
It’s all very Putinesque.
I suppose that’s what happens when most of your donors seem to be Russian Oligarchs, including the ex son of a KGB official, now a peer of the realm along with Johnson’s brother.

 

[TheShanklyGates]

Looking at that latest poll, the party is losing voters to the left so...

And looking at the latest general election result it lost them... everywhere, so...

Brexit was the final nail in the coffin of Labour's fragile electoral coalition. It cannot win under FPTP unless the Tory vote share collapses.

[Red-Soldier]

And looking at the latest general election result it lost them... everywhere, so...

Brexit was the final nail in the coffin of Labour's fragile electoral coalition. It cannot win under FPTP unless the Tory vote share collapses.

I agree.

[Jshooters]

Local election time so shite from the likes of  'For Britain' now coming through the letterbox

[Zeb]

I’m seeing lots of stuff starting to appear on Twitter saying that No10 were “very helpful” to certain journalists regarding information about Hancock.
Seems like he will be the sacrificial offering to show how strong man Johnson deals with corruption. No need to worry though because Hancock will no doubt continue lobbying for the privatisation of the health service making a small fortune at it.
It’s all very Putinesque.
I suppose that’s what happens when most of your donors seem to be Russian Oligarchs, including the ex son of a KGB official, now a peer of the realm along with Johnson’s brother.

I think the current government's intention is to pass it all off as 'Call me Dave's fault' and pretend they have nothing to do with any of it.

----

Looking at that latest poll, the party is losing voters to the left so...

I'm not sure the Lib Dems, Tories, and 'don't know' are to the left of Labour but I'll go out on a limb that someone will make the case for it when they get round to reconciling polling with hot take.

[PatriotScouser]

Do you think Starmer is doing a good job?

If your answer could be a bit more in depth than "muh Corbyn / Momentum / Marxist boogeymen", that would be grand.

It is disappointing, but the idea that moving left will somehow close the gap is a fantasy. Only by appealing to Conservative voters can Labour win, and I don’t think there’s an issue either way where Starmer is ideologically right now. He’s roughly in the right place.

But he’s struggling to get a hearing amid the vaccine bounce, Government approval is at historic highs and there’s been a few unforced errors. Do that we need to move further and faster to the centre-ground. Hopefully this poll will be a clear signal for Starmer to do so.

The vaccine boost is definitely helping the Tories, and this poll may very well be an outlier. I certainly haven’t lost faith in Starmer, he has a lot of potential but he really should start setting out where he stands on key issues.

The reality is though everyone in the party will turn around and, as usual, say 'We're listening. We need to change. We will be hearing what the voters are telling us.' And they they'll turn around and promptly ignore what is said.

I'd start having policies on, above all, Brexit, immigration, and welfare that voters actually want. Tony Blair realised the need to do more than appeal to the liberal, progressive middle classes. Labour have not been anywhere close to winning since about summer 2007, let's be honest with ourselves. Oh, that's before we even get onto the electorate not trusting us with their money, too.

Voters want lower levels of immigration than we had in 2004-10, and they don't want to re-run the referendum. It's time we caught up to them and stopped giving them the impression we don't agree.

We been structurally incapable of forming a majority since the financial crisis. Keir needs to change our appeal radically to reach beyond the voters we’ve been restricted to since Brown became leader. I blame Miliband, trying to make 2015 a referendum on the Tories, and assuming we could gather together Lib Dem refugees.

[TSC]

So now it appears two ‘procurement’ civil servants were hired by Greensill (Cameron’s mob) while working within the civil service.

[filopastry]

God, if only Starmer showed any indication of being left of centre, I'd be a lot less unhappy.

I never quite get this criticism, economically I think he will be very clearly left of centre, which we will see closer to the next election, and I can't think that he has particularly done anything to disprove this yet either.

It seems to be all the other non economic issues where many on the left have an issue with him, and to be honest on those his views are a lot closer to the views of the electorate than those of his critics are.

Politics as normal is pretty much non existent at present anyway, its all about COVID and vaccination as far as the public is concerned

[So… Howard Philips]

I never quite get this criticism, economically I think he will be very clearly left of centre, which we will see closer to the next election, and I can't think that he has particularly done anything to disprove this yet either.

It seems to be all the other non economic issues where many on the left have an issue with him, and to be honest on those his views are a lot closer to the views of the electorate than those of his critics are.

Politics as normal is pretty much non existent at present anyway, its all about COVID and vaccination as far as the public is concerned

And good old Boris has opened the pubs, you can buy your own choice of, no doubt, Chinese goods in what's left of the high street and, if you REALLY behave, have a holiday abroad.

There's no competing with this as far as the bulk of the population are concerned who won't have the faintest idea of some slight faux pas of Starmer's that the left thinks are influencing these polls.

[Robinred]

So now it appears two ‘procurement’ civil servants were hired by Greensill (Cameron’s mob) while working within the civil service.

And as revealed in yesterday’s iPaper, Andrew Cumpsty, a government lobbying ‘watchdog’, runs a lobbying firm, which advertises the fact that it serves as a link between British business and Conservative cabinet members, from the Houses of Parliament.

He’s a public official who was appointed to oversee employment of ex-ministers, but sells what he calls “the very best government relations advice and support” through his firm Cumpsty Communications.

The sleaze, cronyism and sheer hard nosed hypocrisy are off the scale. It was ever thus, but never as blatant, such is their confidence that the British public either don’t understand or don’t care. Or both...

[Red-Soldier]

And as revealed in yesterday’s iPaper, Andrew Cumpsty, a government lobbying ‘watchdog’, runs a lobbying firm, which advertises the fact that it serves as a link between British business and Conservative cabinet members, from the Houses of Parliament.

He’s a public official who was appointed to oversee employment of ex-ministers, but sells what he calls “the very best government relations advice and support” through his firm Cumpsty Communications.

The sleaze, cronyism and sheer hard nosed hypocrisy are off the scale. It was ever thus, but never as blatant, such is their confidence that the British public either don’t understand or don’t care. Or both...

I think this is the case.

FPTP is also a rigged system, stacked in their favour.  Also, now that Brexit has happened, they are going to fill their boots right up!!!!

They are going to continue to take one giant shit all over the UK.

[TepidT2O]

I think this is the case.

FPTP is also a rigged system, stacked in their favour.  Also, now that Brexit has happened, they are going to fill their boots right up!!!!

They are going to continue to take one giant shit all over the UK.

How is it rigged and stacked in their favour?

[oldfordie]

I don't think we are learning anything from the last 10yrs or so.
A high percentage of the US public have lost faith in the electoral system, the Republicans are saying we must change the electoral system to restore the trust of millions of Americans. so why have so many Americans lost trust in the system, ? should the Democrats be listening to their concerns and worries.
For years now Labour have been told we should be listening to the public on the issues they feel  strongly about without considering why the public feel strongly about issues like Brexit, immigration, Labour over spending, getting behind the government rather than playing politics and criticizing them during a national emergency, ( we've heard that one before haven't we?)
The public may think they feel strongly about these things, the realty is the Tories and media propaganda influence gave them that opinion.
Millions walk out of their house every day in fear. they walk past gangs of scallys wondering if they are in danger knowing there will be no police to come to their rescue, they days of the Policeman walking around are a thing of the past. they see the influence of drugs on our society. a underfunded police force trying to cope with crime yet many of these people think the countries going the dogs because of immigrants. unelected bureaucrats in Brussels etc etc.
Labour policys are important but we are kidding ourselves thinking they will get Labour into power while the country nod along with Tory lies+ propaganda dictating the most important issues of the period.

[Zeb]

Sometimes it's nice to agree with the Soft Left. Emma Burnell in The Times today with the oblique criticism and the direction I'd like Labour to head towards over the next couple of years.

Spoiler

The sun is starting to shine and lockdown is starting to ease for what is probably the last time. People are meeting again. I’ve seen lots of friends, safely and outdoors. It feels wonderful.

The vaccine rollout is going well and these shots in arms for individuals have acted as a shot in the arm for the country. We’re in an increasingly good mood. The people on Walthamstow Marshes with me yesterday were all smiling at each other. There were a lot of us, feeling good about feeling good. Unlike last summer it did not feel fragile. It felt like the beginning of the end.

Some Labour people look on aghast. They look at the 120,000+ deaths, the bungled PPE, the 1 per cent pay raise for nurses, the lack of planning for economic recovery that will change the terms of our unbalanced and unfair country and the stilted and difficult recovery ahead and wonder why the nation is feeling so optimistic.

Labour is still angry, and it has a right. But the country is not. And Labour is not reflecting on that and working out how to represent a country in a good mood.

Opposition is difficult in good times. If people are happy, what should you be opposing? The problem for Labour is that for a long time it hasn’t really done optimism. Its standard is to look at what is going wrong and make a case for the party to be in charge to make it better. This needs the country to agree with its pessimism.

Labour has flirted occasionally with hope, but that’s different. Hope is about changing bad circumstances and offering a brighter tomorrow. It shows a way out of the present gloom – not an extension and underpinning of the good times people feel are coming. Tony Blair may have adopted the song Things can only get better, but he was well aware that at the time they already were. Instead of fighting that he spoke to that sense of optimism. Keir Starmer will have to do the same if he wants to get through these better times unscathed.

Labour’s reliance on pessimism has long been the case. I don’t think a Labour leader has offered an optimistic vision of the country since Blair. Being optimistic doesn’t mean not offering change, but it does mean offering it to people in the understanding that many are already happy. Labour could capitalise on that contentment and give the country a vision where happiness becomes part of our expectations, not an exception. But it will take a strong sense of vision and drive to do this, and there is little sign of that coming from any part of the Labour party.

As the UK moves into what will most likely feel like a summer of brighter todays, what does Labour have to offer the UK and how can it compete with a government basking in the sunshine?

If Labour’s narrative continues to simply point out government failures it will lose the moment. If Labour chooses only to contrast its vision of a slightly better managed — and paid — public sector, technocratic and uninspiring, it will lose the moment. If Labour simply offers hope and sympathy — not vision — it will lose.

Labour had a good run of opposing government failure during the bad times. But its focus now simply on a public inquiry that feels inevitable and will almost certainly tell us what we already know (and the public have already moved past) is not the thing for this moment.

This is not to say that an inquiry isn’t important or necessary. But all Labour politicians are talking about is their view of the government’s failures. What they must offer is a story of how Labour will help the UK to succeed. This is what people need and want to hear from the opposition. If Labour can offer a competing view to the laziness of the government relying on vaccine happiness to see them through the difficulties to come, it will start an important conversation with a country whose ear it has lost.

As the pandemic recedes, I want to see the UK becoming a happy, successful and confident country. One where the economic circumstances you were born into do not decide the economic circumstances you will die in. One where we know what and who we value and reward them accordingly. One where talent is spread and used throughout the country — in our villages, towns and cities.

This is the future Labour should be promising the people it aspires to lead. This is the tone Labour should be adopting to speak to a happy, relieved and forward-looking country. Until Labour is able to adopt this, it will fail to speak either to the country or the moment. No one elects that party to government.

[close]

[Robinred]

Sometimes it's nice to agree with the Soft Left. Emma Burnell in The Times today with the oblique criticism and the direction I'd like Labour to head towards over the next couple of years.

Spoiler

[close]

Agree with her, and her analysis. A key question remains: should Starmer and his front bench also agree, and begin to create a narrative accordingly, will those on the far left commend Starmer on his political foresight, or reinforce their view that he’s just another ‘red Tory’?

[ShakaHislop]

Agree with her, and her analysis. A key question remains: should Starmer and his front bench also agree, and begin to create a narrative accordingly, will those on the far left commend Starmer on his political foresight, or reinforce their view that he’s just another ‘red Tory’?

About as likely as Starmer supporters stopping blaming everything under the sun on "the left"

[Sangria]

God, if only Starmer showed any indication of being left of centre, I'd be a lot less unhappy.

What would you define as left of centre? Going by what you and other Corbyn loyalists have been saying, it seems to be based solely on social liberal issues.

[Snail]

What would you define as left of centre?

Not comparing trade union lobbying to the Greensill scandal as Rachel Reeves did literally yesterday is a pretty good example. Corporation tax, another. NHS pay rises, another. Throwing teachers under a bus, another. And yes, “social liberal issues” as you charmingly describe LGBTQ+, trans rights and anti-black / anti-GRT racism. What’s wrong with that?

you and other Corbyn loyalists

Careful you don’t pull a muscle projecting too hard.

[Felch Aid]

Pretty obvious the vaccine success would give the Tories a bounce.

Furlough, vaccine and finalising Brexit have kept the Tories ahead.

Once we get back to some sort of reality the real politics can begin. Some things have likely changed forever - homeworking, the high street and a huge deficit to balance as well as any long terms issues from Brexit. The European vaccination shambles also gives a perception of the UK getting it completely right. Over 100000 deaths seem to have forgotten by a lot of people.

I despise the Tories but as I said to my brother I despise the electorate even more but I've been saying that since the referendum. Maybe I'm just a grumpy arse socialist.

[TSC]

Joe Anderson interview on ch4 news in a bit apparently.  Focusing first on the Tory corruption.

[Sangria]

Not comparing trade union lobbying to the Greensill scandal as Rachel Reeves did literally yesterday is a pretty good example. Corporation tax, another. NHS pay rises, another. Throwing teachers under a bus, another. And yes, “social liberal issues” as you charmingly describe LGBTQ+, trans rights and anti-black / anti-GRT racism. What’s wrong with that?

Careful you don’t pull a muscle projecting too hard.

Every time liberals shout about social issues as a political matter, the Tories solidify their support. Has happened in the past, has continued to happen, will always happen. And yet you still do it. It's as though it's more important for you to feel good about yourself than to get the Tories out.

[Thepooloflife]

I don't think we are learning anything from the last 10yrs or so.
A high percentage of the US public have lost faith in the electoral system, the Republicans are saying we must change the electoral system to restore the trust of millions of Americans. so why have so many Americans lost trust in the system, ? should the Democrats be listening to their concerns and worries.
For years now Labour have been told we should be listening to the public on the issues they feel  strongly about without considering why the public feel strongly about issues like Brexit, immigration, Labour over spending, getting behind the government rather than playing politics and criticizing them during a national emergency, ( we've heard that one before haven't we?)
The public may think they feel strongly about these things, the realty is the Tories and media propaganda influence gave them that opinion.
Millions walk out of their house every day in fear. they walk past gangs of scallys wondering if they are in danger knowing there will be no police to come to their rescue, they days of the Policeman walking around are a thing of the past. they see the influence of drugs on our society. a underfunded police force trying to cope with crime yet many of these people think the countries going the dogs because of immigrants. unelected bureaucrats in Brussels etc etc.
Labour policys are important but we are kidding ourselves thinking they will get Labour into power while the country nod along with Tory lies+ propaganda dictating the most important issues of the period.

Good post mate, and I agree. Whatever happened to political parties actually influencing public opinion - instead of the other way around ? Despite the Tory owned press and it's propaganda machine, it was no coincidence that the left policies Labour had in the 2017 election saw them run the Tories close and did way better than 2015. Some of those policies were very popular among the public.....they just weren't keen on the leader.

The other thing, I'm not sure the polls are that accurate at the moment - there was one in the Observer recently that had the Tories just 2 points ahead, so who knows.

[Sangria]

Pretty obvious the vaccine success would give the Tories a bounce.

Furlough, vaccine and finalising Brexit have kept the Tories ahead.

Once we get back to some sort of reality the real politics can begin. Some things have likely changed forever - homeworking, the high street and a huge deficit to balance as well as any long terms issues from Brexit. The European vaccination shambles also gives a perception of the UK getting it completely right. Over 100000 deaths seem to have forgotten by a lot of people.

I despise the Tories but as I said to my brother I despise the electorate even more but I've been saying that since the referendum. Maybe I'm just a grumpy arse socialist.

There's an economic left wing argument to be made that accepts the current environment and allows for the concerns made by former Labour voters and Tory voters. The question for the left is whether they are interested in that, or whether they are more interested in winning the left via social and cultural debates.

[Sangria]

Good post mate, and I agree. Whatever happened to political parties actually influencing public opinion - instead of the other way around ? Despite the Tory owned press and it's propaganda machine, it was no coincidence that the left policies Labour had in the 2017 election saw them run the Tories close and did way better than 2015. Some of those policies were very popular among the public.....they just weren't keen on the leader.

The other thing, I'm not sure the polls are that accurate at the moment - there was one in the Observer recently that had the Tories just 2 points ahead, so who knows.

Which left policies? The economic policies? Or the cultural debates? Are the left willing to sideline the latter and promote the former? There's a section of the left, mostly hardline Corbyn loyalists who bask in pleasure every time Labour suffer a setback, who hold cultural liberalism to be the most important tenet of leftism.

[Thepooloflife]

Which left policies? The economic policies? Or the cultural debates? Are the left willing to sideline the latter and promote the former? There's a section of the left, mostly hardline Corbyn loyalists who bask in pleasure every time Labour suffer a setback, who hold cultural liberalism to be the most important tenet of leftism.

Economic - energy price freezes, nationalisation, tax increases for super rich, scrap tuition fees etc.

[Elmo!]

Which left policies? The economic policies? Or the cultural debates? Are the left willing to sideline the latter and promote the former? There's a section of the left, mostly hardline Corbyn loyalists who bask in pleasure every time Labour suffer a setback, who hold cultural liberalism to be the most important tenet of leftism.

What do you see as the most important tenets of leftism and which of those do you see Labour under Starmer making a case for?

It seems to me that Corbyn mainly focused on economic policies like nationalisation and taxation.

[Father Ted]

A similar 'broadband communism' idea is being adopted by Biden in America I noticed, after being laughed out of town as another nonsense proposal by the Mad Monk of Islington over here.

[Sangria]

What do you see as the most important tenets of leftism and which of those do you see Labour under Starmer making a case for?

It seems to me that Corbyn mainly focused on economic policies like nationalisation and taxation.

It's not particularly Corbyn who fixates on cultural left wing issues. It's his supporters. And don't bother getting me to defend Starmer on this issue or that. I know little about him. I only know that those on the left who've been attacking him from day one, primarily Corbyn loyalists, are forever pounding cultural issues in such a way as to win their left wing debates whilst exemplifying what non-Corbyn loyalists hate about the new left. Every time they pipe up about these issues, the Tories solidify their support as voters are reminded "That's why I don't vote Labour".

[TepidT2O]

A similar 'broadband communism' idea is being adopted by Biden in America I noticed, after being laughed out of town as another nonsense proposal by the Mad Monk of Islington over here.

It was a nonsense proposal.

And this isn’t anything like his proposal.  What Biden is doing is building infra structure for a massive country that doesn’t currently have good access in a lot of places.

What isn’t nonsense is to provide broad band and a computer for families that can’t afford it.

[Sangria]

Economic - energy price freezes, nationalisation, tax increases for super rich, scrap tuition fees etc.

Local infrastructure to help small and medium sized locally-based businesses, etc. And every once in a while you get cultural liberals declaring that Labour's failure to take a hard enough line on this issue or that means they are not left wing and thus will not have their support. It doesn't matter what economic arguments are being discussed. For these liberals, economics is a secondary concern to their culturals.

[Sangria]

It was a nonsense proposal.

And this isn’t anything like his proposal.  What Biden is doing is building infra structure for a massive country that doesn’t currently have good access in a lot of places.

What isn’t nonsense is to provide broad band and a computer for families that can’t afford it.

The infrastructure around broadband, human as well as physical, is something that Labour should be investigating. Just throwing money or saying that something should be isn't sufficient.

[Thepooloflife]

Local infrastructure to help small and medium sized locally-based businesses, etc. And every once in a while you get cultural liberals declaring that Labour's failure to take a hard enough line on this issue or that means they are not left wing and thus will not have their support. It doesn't matter what economic arguments are being discussed. For these liberals, economics is a secondary concern to their culturals.

Don't know what your describing there as 'cultural liberals'. The people I know and mix with are far more interested in economic issues - especially now with hundreds of 1000's more unemployed which will likely increase when furlough ends.

[Elmo!]

It's not particularly Corbyn who fixates on cultural left wing issues. It's his supporters. And don't bother getting me to defend Starmer on this issue or that. I know little about him. I only know that those on the left who've been attacking him from day one, primarily Corbyn loyalists, are forever pounding cultural issues in such a way as to win their left wing debates whilst exemplifying what non-Corbyn loyalists hate about the new left. Every time they pipe up about these issues, the Tories solidify their support as voters are reminded "That's why I don't vote Labour".

It just comes across like you are just branding anyone you disagree with on any issue, even issues which aren't really associated with Corbyn, as Corbyn loyalists.

Do you think social issues should be just ignored altogether? Do you have data to back up the claim that it is these social issues specifically that solidifies Tory support? Other countries manage to debate these issues (I presume you are talking about things like trans rights). Is it maybe because there hasn't been a major party willing to stand up and make the case?

[Sangria]

It just comes across like you are just branding anyone you disagree with on any issue, even issues which aren't really associated with Corbyn, as Corbyn loyalists.

Do you think social issues should be just ignored altogether? Do you have data to back up the claim that it is these social issues specifically that solidifies Tory support? Other countries manage to debate these issues (I presume you are talking about things like trans rights). Is it maybe because there hasn't been a major party willing to stand up and make the case?

I call them Corbyn loyalists because they were utterly loyal to Labour when Corbyn was leader, dubbing doubters Red Tories and similar, yet who turned on the new leader practically from the day he became leader, before there was any evidence of anything. I've seen people who opposed Labour before Corbyn became leader, who became fanatically pro-Labour whilst he was Labour, who then turned on Labour after he was no longer leader, yet who declare themselves to be the true left.

On the latter; when has a stand from the official opposition changed social matters? Changes have either come from party-independent agencies, or from the government.

[Elmo!]

I call them Corbyn loyalists because they were utterly loyal to Labour when Corbyn was leader, dubbing doubters Red Tories and similar, yet who turned on the new leader practically from the day he became leader, before there was any evidence of anything. I've seen people who opposed Labour before Corbyn became leader, who became fanatically pro-Labour whilst he was Labour, who then turned on Labour after he was no longer leader, yet who declare themselves to be the true left.

On the latter; when has a stand from the official opposition changed social matters? Changes have either come from party-independent agencies, or from the government.

There's a lot of vague accusations and generalisations here.

If you were to draw Venn diagram of people who were utterly loyal to Corbyn, people who have never given Starmer a chance, peopel who care about social isses etc, sure they there would be some crossover, but it wouldn't be a circle by any means. Yet you just lump them all into the same group and call them Corbyn loyalists.

[TepidT2O]

I call them Corbyn loyalists because they were utterly loyal to Labour when Corbyn was leader, dubbing doubters Red Tories and similar, yet who turned on the new leader practically from the day he became leader, before there was any evidence of anything. I've seen people who opposed Labour before Corbyn became leader, who became fanatically pro-Labour whilst he was Labour, who then turned on Labour after he was no longer leader, yet who declare themselves to be the true left.

On the latter; when has a stand from the official opposition changed social matters? Changes have either come from party-independent agencies, or from the government.

They’re just people who have different opinions ....

Better to tackle the ideas you think are wrong ...

Momentum are (were?) the biggest issue to defeat now.  How a non affliated body can have so much power in the Labour Party is of great concern.