Topic: The Israel thread is in the bin.

[Andy82lfc]

Sorry mate but this is a genuinely disgusting post. Nothing in the other post was even remotely controversial, it was factual even and you’re talking about “balance” when white phosphorous bombs are being dropped on children’s hospitals??

I don’t blame the staff one bit for wanting nothing to do with the thread when you see war crimes being handwaved away.

Just… wow. I had to read that twice thinking it was a parody.

Thank you for proving my point so well, but you’ve  probably just made it more difficult for the mods to ever re-open the thread.

[Elmo!]

^ It's like that one kid in class that gets the whole class in trouble.

[jillcwhomever]

Just… wow. I had to read that twice thinking it was a parody.

Thank you for proving my point so well, but you’ve  probably just made it more difficult for the mods to ever re-open the thread.

Yes, it has kind of proved the point the mods made. It's not as if you can't follow what's happening somewhere else.

[Wool]

Just… wow. I had to read that twice thinking it was a parody.

Thank you for proving my point so well, but you’ve  probably just made it more difficult for the mods to ever re-open the thread.

If the thread remaining closed means we won’t get rubbish such as yours asking for ‘balance’ in defending war crimes that’s dandy mate. Please go educate yourself on what white phosphorous is and does.

[Baby Huey]

I wonder if a thread in the Announcements, Feedback & Questions section has ever had to be binned...

[jambutty]

The false equivalence is clear to those with open eyes.

[Andy82lfc]

If the thread remaining closed means we won’t get rubbish such as yours asking for ‘balance’ in defending war crimes that’s dandy mate. Please go educate yourself on what white phosphorous is and does.

At this point mate I can only assume the reason you are posting these comments here is all a ruse to keep the thread closed anyway, as otherwise I struggle to believe that anybody could be that thick.

[Andy82lfc]

Yes, it has kind of proved the point the mods made. It's not as if you can't follow what's happening somewhere else.

It has and it seems it's inevitable now but it's really shit to be honest, as Yorky and others have said without some posters who can't seem to contain themselves, there has been great discussion and understanding. I've learned a lot myself and it was really sad but interesting hearing from fellow reds actually living out there in the middle of it, but he was chased away most of the time which in itself is just beyond belief.

If it were me I would ban anyone deviating from civil objective discussion, but that's a lot to ask from the mods and understandably get why some of them want it binned.

I wonder if a thread in the Announcements, Feedback & Questions section has ever had to be binned...

  It's on it's way I reckon mate.

[Elmo!]

Just how selfish is it, when soany posters have put in a lot of effort to make their case on why the thread should be reopened, to throw in a hand grenade here and ruining it for everyine because you can't show the slightest bit of restraint.

[Chakan]

Just how selfish is it, when soany posters have put in a lot of effort to make their case on why the thread should be reopened, to throw in a hand grenade here and ruining it for everyine because you can't show the slightest bit of restraint.

Which only reinforces the position of the mods to bin it. Showing once again that some people have the inability to self moderate.

[Andy82lfc]

Just how selfish is it, when soany posters have put in a lot of effort to make their case on why the thread should be reopened, to throw in a hand grenade here and ruining it for everyine because you can't show the slightest bit of restraint.

Which only reinforces the position of the mods to bin it. Showing once again that some people have the inability to self moderate.

I honestly reckon there's a good chance they have done it on purpose to keep it closed, can't fathom why else you would come in throwing grenades like that with seemingly zero restraint.

Either way it just back sup the mods position like you say.

[alonsoisared]

On the contrary, isn't Wool's post exactly the point of a discussion forum? Perhaps he could've toned down on calling the post rubbish (although I'd like to think the original poster wouldn't be too devastated by that particular zinger) but he's argued a point with his opinion without attacking the man. It's not an exactly extreme position. If you feel it is, you're able to argue your opinion back. If his posts count as "grenades" and are examples of showing "no restraint" then what kind of bland debates are people after?

It feels like there is a desperation sometimes to appear grown up and in the middle/on the fence on things. It's a theme that I think has developed on here recently and that group of "adults" often have a bit of a sneering attitude towards anyone arguing something different to them. Often the truth is in the middle of course, but that can be found by two people having opposing arguments and allowing the reader to make their own minds up. Not just every single person agreeing with each other on absolutely everything.

I think the news forum would be a big loss to the place, even if I think the diversity of opinion has dwindled over the years. RAWK has been an exceptional tool for all sorts of non-football stuff and it's probably the reason most of us have hung around for so long. It's a general trend, I suppose, that people only want to hear their own opinions read back to them rather than being willing to accept that other people disagree for their own valid reasons. And also being able to accept that those other people might actually be right sometimes.

I don't envy the mods but I'd say it's the tone of posts that's worth watching more than anything else- I don't think we have any people who have shown the types of extremist views that are worthy of banning or getting threads shut (admittedly I didn't see whatever it was that caused the Israel thread to close!). But I do think we have a wide, wide range of people who use this site and we shouldn't be shocked and appalled if we encounter people who think differently to us. People just need to talk to people rather than talking down at them. That's what winds people up IMO and turns threads into arguments. The sly little digs, constantly bringing up old, irrelevant arguments that they know will bring a reaction. Talk to people like you would if you were sat around a table having a pint.

[tubby]

That's not the point.  This thread is to discuss whether the main thread should be opened, not what's actually going on.

Wool's post was ridiculous.  At no point did Andy82lfc pick a side or even argue against the points that the post he quoted made, yet his response was labelled 'genuinely disgusting'.  It was a completely unnecessary escalation and I can absolutely understand why it would sour the mods on re-opening the main thread.

[TepidT2O]

That's not the point.  This thread is to discuss whether the main thread should be opened, not what's actually going on.

Wool's post was ridiculous.  At no point did Andy82lfc pick a side or even argue against the points that the post he quoted made, yet his response was labelled 'genuinely disgusting'.  It was a completely unnecessary escalation and I can absolutely understand why it would sour the mods on re-opening the main thread.

It’s one of those issues where by not picking a side, many will infer that you are simply  against  their side.

Northern Ireland on steroids

[Sheer Magnetism]

It's also worth remembering that this is not an objective issue to many people, it's something that directly affects people they might know and/or indirectly affects them. When you allow escalation posts, it all but guarantees the thread will turn into people responding in kind and throwing things back and forth, making reasonable discussion impossible.

Incidentally, the discussion in this thread reminded me of Adam Curtis's short film on the evolution of news reporting, and the impossibility of a 'true' moral narrative in a situation where both sides are slaughtering each other:


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/8moePxHpvok" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/8moePxHpvok</a>

[jambutty]

Northern Ireland on steroids

A team from ROI and NI should negotiate any settlement.

[Yorkykopite]

Pity. The thread was old and there was some good stuff on it going back several years. It's a pity to lose it - especially posts which have taken some time and effort to compose.

This is a highly personal opinion but I believe whereas the football threads on RAWK have deteriorated in quality over the last 10 years the ones on the Middle East have improved. When I first joined RAWK there was a lot of very weird stuff about Israel - plain anti-semitism really - and much less now. If others agree with me on that it'd be interesting to know why it is.  Perhaps because of some genuine discussion (as well as some good moderating).

The perverse effect of binning posts like this one is that in future it encourages one-liners designed to hurt and provoke. After all, why should any poster put in any effort at all when the thread is likely to be binned?

[PatriotScouser]

Firstly I want to apologise to the Mods and admin on here as I know some on my posts on that thread were amongst those that accelerated the decision to take the thread off the main board. It is a highly emotive issue and in the heat of the moment one can write things that with more time and space to think would be written with more wisely. Although I did try to raise above the parapet with some reasoned posts.

However I just wanted it one record that I apologise for making that thread harder work to moderate than is usually the case with other threads.

I am ok with the decision on whether to keep it off rawk or put it back on as a starred topic with certain criteria for posting. But whatever that decision I am fine with.

You'll note that as an American I don't talk about American politics much in this forum because I prefer other avenues to offer opinion and debate on American politics, so I tend to keep that to a bare minimum on here. I do talk more about UK politics on this site because having lived here for almost 25 years and living in the local community, I believe I can debate with others on this forum about local and national UK politics more freely.

So I just want to place my record of thanks on the great work you are doing in moderatin this forum. It is a difficult and ardous task and not one that I envy!

[Valore]

I think the tier list of considerations should go like this:

1. Who has to clean up the shit. Obviously it's the mods. They're unpaid volunteers. So the final say should go to the one covered in muck at the end of the day. They're the only ones who should have any say in whether or not the job is something they're willing to do.

2. A good point that Yorky raised that I'm in agreement with, the non-LFC parts of RAWK, especially the News and Current Affairs section, are places where I come by because I want to read viewpoints from across the spectrum. Eroding that would not improve the overall quality of the site.

3. Sheer Magnetism also made a very good point in saying there's a possibility of over-rotating either way. You can be too cold and objective, maybe even flippant when talking about things that may more directly impact other's lives. That will inevitably lead to the escalation that creates shit that needs cleaning up.

My proposal would be a new section which any topics that are bound to be emotive are placed into.

This section sacrifices some nuance to allow for easier moderation. Rules like deletion of posts that are verge onto the overly emotional or flippant/throwaway, 24 hour section specific timeouts, with a clear focus on letting people who either want to expand their knowledge or ask relevant questions, and for the answers to be as informative and accurate as possible, with links and references from clearly verified sources only, and personal experience if the poster is a verified credible source with some history on RAWK.

Make it so it's clear that people who are there to show how right or clever they are, or to prove their points, should not post. If you want to score points or wave your epeen, then go somewhere else.

That's my 2 cents. I work in mental health, and I know having to put up with the worst parts of life takes a toll on us, and if we are to have a place on RAWK to do something productive, it shouldn't come at a cost of the mods literal sanity.

[Nobby Reserve]

On the contrary, isn't Wool's post exactly the point of a discussion forum? Perhaps he could've toned down on calling the post rubbish (although I'd like to think the original poster wouldn't be too devastated by that particular zinger) but he's argued a point with his opinion without attacking the man. It's not an exactly extreme position. If you feel it is, you're able to argue your opinion back. If his posts count as "grenades" and are examples of showing "no restraint" then what kind of bland debates are people after?

It feels like there is a desperation sometimes to appear grown up and in the middle/on the fence on things. It's a theme that I think has developed on here recently and that group of "adults" often have a bit of a sneering attitude towards anyone arguing something different to them. Often the truth is in the middle of course, but that can be found by two people having opposing arguments and allowing the reader to make their own minds up. Not just every single person agreeing with each other on absolutely everything.

I think the news forum would be a big loss to the place, even if I think the diversity of opinion has dwindled over the years. RAWK has been an exceptional tool for all sorts of non-football stuff and it's probably the reason most of us have hung around for so long. It's a general trend, I suppose, that people only want to hear their own opinions read back to them rather than being willing to accept that other people disagree for their own valid reasons. And also being able to accept that those other people might actually be right sometimes.

I don't envy the mods but I'd say it's the tone of posts that's worth watching more than anything else- I don't think we have any people who have shown the types of extremist views that are worthy of banning or getting threads shut (admittedly I didn't see whatever it was that caused the Israel thread to close!). But I do think we have a wide, wide range of people who use this site and we shouldn't be shocked and appalled if we encounter people who think differently to us. People just need to talk to people rather than talking down at them. That's what winds people up IMO and turns threads into arguments. The sly little digs, constantly bringing up old, irrelevant arguments that they know will bring a reaction. Talk to people like you would if you were sat around a table having a pint.

Well said. Great points.

[Son of Spion]

..The perverse effect of binning posts like this one is that in future it encourages one-liners designed to hurt and provoke. After all, why should any poster put in any effort at all when the thread is likely to be binned?

Whilst appreciating the fact that moderating is a minefield of a job, your point there is one that crosses my mind when entire threads go. It can be deeply frustrating to spend a lot of time and thought on a post, or a number of posts, in a thread, only to see the whole lot disappear.

I do also appreciate that no matter what we are posting about, we aren't changing it. We aren't going to change the world. Our opinions are like one individual pissing into a hurricane. But those thoughts and feelings still often take a lot of time and consideration, as does posting them.

Do our posts matter to the world in the wider scheme of things? No. But do they matter to us individually? I'd say they do. Especially if you've put a lot of time, thought and consideration into them.

[Yorkykopite]

Whilst appreciating the fact that moderating is a minefield of a job, your point there is one that crosses my mind when entire threads go. It can be deeply frustrating to spend a lot of time and thought on a post, or a number of posts, in a thread, only to see the whole lot disappear.

I do also appreciate that no matter what we are posting about, we aren't changing it. We aren't going to change the world. Our opinions are like one individual pissing into a hurricane. But those thoughts and feelings still often take a lot of time and consideration, as does posting them.

Do our posts matter to the world in the wider scheme of things? No. But do they matter to us individually? I'd say they do. Especially if you've put a lot of time, thought and consideration into them.

It probably works the other way too. Someone losing the argument or getting annoyed at the number of people who disagree with him/her knows that a single disgusting post can close the whole thing down.

Take another thread on RAWK. The one about the redevelopment of the Anfield Road stand. I don't contribute to it but I read it. There are some quality posts in there that you learn from. But when things started to go pear shaped with Buckingham there were suddenly a rash of stupid and ignorant one-liners from tantrum posters. The issue is obviously not as emotional as Israel/Palestine but it's important to Liverpool fans. I'm sure if the thread had been binned it would have been really irritating to all those posters who had spent time and effort to post their knowledge. Not one of their posts could possibly ever solve the Anfield Road Stand problem, but that isn't the point.

[Alan_X]

Whilst appreciating the fact that moderating is a minefield of a job, your point there is one that crosses my mind when entire threads go. It can be deeply frustrating to spend a lot of time and thought on a post, or a number of posts, in a thread, only to see the whole lot disappear.

I do also appreciate that no matter what we are posting about, we aren't changing it. We aren't going to change the world. Our opinions are like one individual pissing into a hurricane. But those thoughts and feelings still often take a lot of time and consideration, as does posting them.

Do our posts matter to the world in the wider scheme of things? No. But do they matter to us individually? I'd say they do. Especially if you've put a lot of time, thought and consideration into them.

It probably works the other way too. Someone losing the argument or getting annoyed at the number of people who disagree with him/her knows that a single disgusting post can close the whole thing down.

Take another thread on RAWK. The one about the redevelopment of the Anfield Road stand. I don't contribute to it but I read it. There are some quality posts in there that you learn from. But when things started to go pear shaped with Buckingham there were suddenly a rash of stupid and ignorant one-liners from tantrum posters. The issue is obviously not as emotional as Israel/Palestine but it's important to Liverpool fans. I'm sure if the thread had been binned it would have been really irritating to all those posters who had spent time and effort to post their knowledge. Not one of their posts could possibly ever solve the Anfield Road Stand problem, but that isn't the point.

As the mod who binned the thread and banned the user it should probably try and explain why I believe this thread is different to others in the off-topic boards, and why the thread in the current situation is different to the thread before the events of October 7th.

I've now drafted a response and deleted it 4 or 5 times because its simply too complex and views are too polarised. I wish this topic could be discussed on here but even in this thread there have been claims that I believe would need to be fact-checked and we simply don't have the resources or the will. Before the Hamas attack it was possible to have discussions about the history of Israel and the Middle East in general. Now it is too heated and the misinformation is overwhelming.

The "poster-boy" for the thread being binned was page after page disputing the reports of babies being beheaded (no-one denying the babies had been killed) and whether dropping bombs on babies was worse.

The only option I can think of is to have a news only thread and any posts being submitted for vetting before being posted. We would have to agree acceptable sources.

[Andy82lfc]

Can't argue with that and based not only on the polarised views some unfortunately have and can't help themselves with, but the fact the timings means it's even more heated right now.

It's really unfortunate as the level headed (mostly  ) among us would love to discuss and talk through more of what is going on, but there are just too many, sorry but, dickheads that just can't take a breath, self moderate and open their closed views up. Even in this thread ffs you have not only the blatant posts but also some unobjective point scoring after that went on throughout on the main board also. Pathetic and selfishly ruining it for everyone else.

Just ranting now but it just pisses me off that it has to come to this with threads being shut, but at the same time I would not want it open if I was a mod.

A news only thread might be decent, but to be honest, looking at some on here that can't help themselves in a feedback and questions topic then I don't hold out much hope.

[Son of Spion]

Alan binned a number of drafts of his reply, then I also binned my reply to it before hitting 'post'.

It's all so hideous and complex. All I'll say instead of the long reply I originally considered posting is, I get it. Maybe, all things considered, it was a thread too far at this moment in time, when things are so incredibly raw and emotional.

[Yorkykopite]

Alan binned a number of drafts of his reply, then I also binned my reply to it before hitting 'post'.

It's all so hideous and complex. All I'll say instead of the long reply I originally considered posting is, I get it. Maybe, all things considered, it was a thread too far at this moment in time, when things are so incredibly raw and emotional.

It is complex but I disagree with what's happened. Binning threads will result in good posters not bothering to post.

I'm not a fan of banning individual posters either, and I didn' see the post that resulted in the thread being closed, but in this case I wish the Mods had done just that. Bin the offender not the thread.

[Nobby Reserve]

I can't say I blame you for this.

It's one of the most polarising topics in the News Forum, and the nature of the issue means passions are very much inflamed. The two general opposing viewpoints are universes apart and entrenched.

There were some brilliant points raised and some historical detail explained. Ironically a neutral, if they had the patience to cut through the punch-swinging, could have learned a lot. But many are emotionally too close to this and had/have very closed minds on the issue and cannot/will not see other perspectives.

Given the warning issued this morning in the news, it's only going to get more fraught - and people's anger is only going to grow as the body count does.

It will be a shame to not have an arena here to comment on this, but I wouldn't blame the [unpaid volunteer] Mods if they decided the topic was too incendiary to effectively moderate.

Saying all that, with what's transpiring and the reaction of western governments, it's incredibly difficult not to comment.

 

[Son of Spion]

It is complex but I disagree with what's happened. Binning threads will result in good posters not bothering to post.

I'm not a fan of banning individual posters either, and I didn' see the post that resulted in the thread being closed, but in this case I wish the Mods had done just that. Bin the offender not the thread.

I definitely agree that the wholesale deletion of threads on occasion can deter quality posters from bothering in future. I've seen it happen elsewhere. I didn't see the post that caused the pulling of the thread either. Like you, I'm more in favour of removing deliberately offensive posters than threads, but I'm not the one having to mod on such inflammatory issues.

As a poster and/or an observer (I didn't post in the thread but read pretty much all of it) I wish it had stayed. Putting myself in the mods shoes for a moment, though, I can see why they'd pull it.

Maybe I've got my counsellors hat on here where I'm trying to see and understand both angles even if, personally, I'd fall on one side of the fence rather than the other. 

[Andy82lfc]

Can't argue with that and based not only on the polarised views some unfortunately have and can't help themselves with, but the fact the timings means it's even more heated right now.

It's really unfortunate as the level headed (mostly  ) among us would love to discuss and talk through more of what is going on, but there are just too many, sorry but, dickheads that just can't take a breath, self moderate and open their closed views up. Even in this thread ffs you have not only the blatant posts but also some unobjective point scoring after that[/u] went on throughout on the main board also. Pathetic and selfishly ruining it for everyone else.

[Jebediah]

I am delighted that the thread was binned. I felt obligated to post in it to try and get the Israeli point of view across, but each day it literally had me in tears (more to do with my own mental health rather than the majority of posts). One thing I will point out though, is that I posted a picture of an LFC fan from Israel who was murdered, and only 1 person commented on it. That is pretty damning of the lack of care and understanding that was present. I want to add, as a final word, that Roee has now been buried, but his parents, sister, and her 9 year old son are being held prisoner by Hamas in Gaza.

In anyone wants to respectfully discuss the situation in Israel, and get the opinion of a normal Israeli (albeit born in Liverpool), they are welcome to reach out to me by PM.

[Millie]

So very sorry Jebediah - I hadn't seen that post.  May your friend rest in peace.

I truly hope his family are released.  Look after yourself.  YNWA.

[Rush 82]

It’s one of those issues where by not picking a side, many will infer that you are simply  against  their side.

Northern Ireland on steroids

Unless someone is willing to police that thread 24/7 it's best kept locked.

[Historical Fool]

I am delighted that the thread was binned. I felt obligated to post in it to try and get the Israeli point of view across, but each day it literally had me in tears (more to do with my own mental health rather than the majority of posts). One thing I will point out though, is that I posted a picture of an LFC fan from Israel who was murdered, and only 1 person commented on it. That is pretty damning of the lack of care and understanding that was present. I want to add, as a final word, that Roee has now been buried, but his parents, sister, and her 9 year old son are being held prisoner by Hamas in Gaza.

In anyone wants to respectfully discuss the situation in Israel, and get the opinion of a normal Israeli (albeit born in Liverpool), they are welcome to reach out to me by PM.

Read all your posts before the thread disappeared. Take care and stay safe.

[Coolie High]

I am delighted that the thread was binned. I felt obligated to post in it to try and get the Israeli point of view across, but each day it literally had me in tears (more to do with my own mental health rather than the majority of posts). One thing I will point out though, is that I posted a picture of an LFC fan from Israel who was murdered, and only 1 person commented on it. That is pretty damning of the lack of care and understanding that was present. I want to add, as a final word, that Roee has now been buried, but his parents, sister, and her 9 year old son are being held prisoner by Hamas in Gaza.

In anyone wants to respectfully discuss the situation in Israel, and get the opinion of a normal Israeli (albeit born in Liverpool), they are welcome to reach out to me by PM.

Sorry for your loss.

[Andy82lfc]

I am delighted that the thread was binned. I felt obligated to post in it to try and get the Israeli point of view across, but each day it literally had me in tears (more to do with my own mental health rather than the majority of posts). One thing I will point out though, is that I posted a picture of an LFC fan from Israel who was murdered, and only 1 person commented on it. That is pretty damning of the lack of care and understanding that was present. I want to add, as a final word, that Roee has now been buried, but his parents, sister, and her 9 year old son are being held prisoner by Hamas in Gaza.

In anyone wants to respectfully discuss the situation in Israel, and get the opinion of a normal Israeli (albeit born in Liverpool), they are welcome to reach out to me by PM.

Really sorry to hear that Jeb and hope everything can go as well as it can do right now for you. I think the restraint you yourself showed in the thread is a testament to the person you are. I was and am appalled frankly by some comments, I usually think of RAWK as reflection of the City and club values, but (as you will know being born here) it really wasn't this time on the whole. However I hope you can see there was an awful lot of people in there wishing you well, sympathising and understanding fully the horrible situation you are in.

On a wider note hopefully there is a lesson for those sniping and unable to form an objective view or even utter out some empathy, which I could be wrong but that and the nasty swipes generally always seemed to come from one side of the polarized fence than the other. Not sure why that could be and can't be arsed trying to go into it.

Happy then it is binned and sure the mods will be glad of that too. I was of a different opinion at the start of this feedback thread but after the same old shite keeps leaking itself onto here then there is no other option.

[jillcwhomever]

I am delighted that the thread was binned. I felt obligated to post in it to try and get the Israeli point of view across, but each day it literally had me in tears (more to do with my own mental health rather than the majority of posts). One thing I will point out though, is that I posted a picture of an LFC fan from Israel who was murdered, and only 1 person commented on it. That is pretty damning of the lack of care and understanding that was present. I want to add, as a final word, that Roee has now been buried, but his parents, sister, and her 9 year old son are being held prisoner by Hamas in Gaza.

In anyone wants to respectfully discuss the situation in Israel, and get the opinion of a normal Israeli (albeit born in Liverpool), they are welcome to reach out to me by PM.

Sorry for your loss Jeb, take care.

[SP]

Whilst we have no plans to unlock the topic, I am planning on restoring it, once it has been cleaned up. It may be a while though, I have a busy week…

[Son of Spion]

Whilst we have no plans to unlock the topic, I am planning on restoring it, once it has been cleaned up. It may be a while though, I have a busy week…

I think restoring it is a good idea. Even if still locked, the informative and considered posts that people put a lot into will still be there. It crossed my mind yesterday that this might be a reasonable compromise, but then I realised someone would have to spend a lot of time cleaning it up first, so I didn't suggest it.

If I also may add a comment to Jebediah. I saw your posts but, to be honest, I couldn't find the right words to reply. It's all so horribly tragic. Love and peace to you and every single innocent suffering at this time.

[Yorkykopite]

Whilst we have no plans to unlock the topic, I am planning on restoring it, once it has been cleaned up. It may be a while though, I have a busy week…

Appreciate it! Good decision and thanks. I think it’s important to let the knobheads know that they can’t just wander into a highly charged thread like this one, or the Ukraine one, and erase everyone’s posts by their own incendiary ones. It’s a pity that the thread cannot be opened again given its huge topicality, but maybe it’s the nature of the internet, not just RAWK, that we find it difficult to ‘disagree agreeably’ . (For The Rest is Politics fans check out two outstanding recent podcasts on Israel/Palestine.

Jeb, apologies. I didn’t get round to saying how sorry I was to hear you’d lost a friend in the pogrom. A Liverpool supporter too. May he rest in peace.

There are an awful lot more innocent people who will lose their lives in the coming days and weeks. The pity of it.

[CHOPPER]

Mad isn’t it.