Topic: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©

[MichaelA]

Have no idea where they got that from (or when?), but I guess the game's well and truly up. It was me. It was all me.

It's almost like you want to get caught. Just Like Jack "The" Ripper.

[SP]

It's almost like you want to get caught. Just Like Jack "The" Ripper.

STD is a more unfortunate acronym than JTR though. Could probably have done with a little more foresight. There is always Deedpoll.

[Sarah Deane]

It's almost like you want to get caught. Just Like Jack "The" Ripper.

Well I am 123 years old this year, so....like I said, it was me!
And I believe in reincarnation, too, if that helps.

[Brian Blessed]

Well I am 123 years old this year, so....like I said, it was me!
And I believe in reincarnation, too, if that helps.

Time for an edit of your wiki. Sarah The Ripper.

[Sarah Deane]

How do I ask for it to be removed, more to the point?

[SP]

How do I ask for it to be removed, more to the point?

Officially? You don't.

Unofficially, just ask a mate to remove any items not supported by a source. The dodgy quote is supposedly sourced from the Echo, but the relevant story should be online. It isn't. So it could be removed as it lacks a verifiable source. Better that you get someone else to do it. It is considered bad form to edit your entry.

[Sarah Deane]

I'm not even a 'member', or whatever, on there anyway. I only go on Wikipedia to check out the latest deaths!

[west_london_red]

4. One year either way on a Census would be normal. Censuses weren't taken on the exact same day every 10 years, so depends when your birthday falls. Also, not everyone would actually have known when their birthday was, or how old they were, especially in the poorer areas. They'd have to estimate. And some people would have deliberately lied, for numerous reasons. Although a valuable resource, Censuses, especially early ones, shouldn't be taken as documents of fact.

I know what your saying, my dad did exactly the same when he came over from India in '72 its just if you make up a DOB, why would you change it? The cencus data was kept locked away, so if she was lying about her age to people she knew they wouldnt be able to use the cencus data to prove it as no one had access.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

 

I'm not even a 'member', or whatever, on there anyway. I only go on Wikipedia to check out the latest deaths!

Weirdo...

[Mouth]

I'm not even a 'member', or whatever, on there anyway. I only go on Wikipedia to check out the latest deaths!

I could do it, I've done wiki edits before, mind they didnt last that long even though they were cast iron factually correct, my brothers father in law is indeed a little short bald miserable c*nt.

[Sarah Deane]

Haha, don't worry. I do remember saying that quote to someone, just can't remember who, or where.

[SP]

Haha, don't worry. I do remember saying that quote to someone, just can't remember who, or where.

What quote?

[Mouth]

What quote?

The one where she admits to wanting to chop people up into little bits.

[SP]

The one where she admits to wanting to chop people up into little bits.

Where's that then?




(P.S. Chop Mouth up first. He's gone off script. )

[MichaelA]

What quote?

"This is not the serial killer you have been looking for."

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Which was not written by me. Have you SEEN the amount of syntax errors? And it's woefully out of date.

The contract dictated she would not play any UK quiz machine for cash - yeah we left that machine in Rigbys with money in it...

Deane is a Liverpool FC supporter and attends most games - when

[rob1966]

Any "John Ripper"s MUST have been questioned, surely? And maybe "our man" was, but the police just didn't think it was him?

Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) was questioned on nine occasions in relation to the murders and each time the Police disregarded him. He was even named by an associate as a suspect, but this was lost in the paperwork. He was also employed by a company that was on the list of possibles who had received a new Ł5 note in their wages delivery. This Ł5 was found on one of the victims. I seem to remember he was stopped while driving his lorry and was wearing the same boots that had left an imprint at the scene of one of the murders. When they started to clear the incident room after his capture, the police noticed that there were quite a few photofit pictures that matched Sutcliffe.

Can see the logic in what Karl says in namimg John Ripper as a possible. As far as I know, I've never heard anyone think of the name "Jack the Ripper" as anything but a nickname derived from how mutilated his victims.

[Rox]

I'm interested in why Karl dismissed the possibility of a Policeman...

Especially after the links where Scotland Yard are refusing to release 100+ year old files that would name 4 more suspects in case 'relatives are attacked'.

I find that very odd as the names of current suspects in a crime are released when there is MUCH more possibility of the relatives being targetted.

At the time of the Murders, there was a frenzy to catch the murderer - real panic on the streets.  The very worst possibility would be that the murderer was a Policeman.  Worse if Scotland Yard then conspired to keep that information from the public.  That would make sense as to why they would still be unwilling to release the files.

A beat copper would not only know the area, but also they could have approached any of the victims without suspicion.  They would know the locals and know the routine of the locals.

And, quite uniquely amongst suspects, if they were caught over the body holding the knife - they could say they had just discovered the body and knife.

Also, a Policeman with blood on his tunic can easily explain that away by having been involved in an altercation with a suspect.

Are there any in depth discussions into that possibility?

[Red Scouse]

Baker called John Ripper my arse.

Had to be a butcher, not a baker or a surgeon. All victims found on their backs, head to one side, main artery cut - exactly how animals were slaughtered. Mary Kelly was flayed how could a baker do that?

The real culprit was Jacob Levy:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/jacoblevy.html

There is an interesting essay on Casebook which confirms that the Police viewed him as their main suspect, even had him under observation. He had syphilis and was eventually committed to an asylum where he died.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Baker called John Ripper my arse.

Had to be a butcher, not a baker or a surgeon. All victims found on their backs, head to one side, main artery cut - exactly how animals were slaughtered. Mary Kelly was flayed how could a baker do that?

The real culprit was Jacob Levy:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/jacoblevy.html

There is an interesting essay on Casebook which confirms that the Police viewed him as their main suspect, even had him under observation. He had syphilis and was eventually committed to an asylum where he died.

You'd be amazed what tools bakers can use. My dad was one for about 30 years, before that he spent 20 years as yes you've guessed it a butcher...

[Red Scouse]

In those days most butchers also slaughtered live animals, generally in a yard at the back of the shop. Your Dad might have been a butcher but I guess all he did was chop up a carcass.

The most basic fact about this case, stirring everybody in the face, is that the killer was skilled in killing living things quickly and with the minimum loss of blood - cutting the main artery results in a sudden and short burst of blood, death, heart has stopped so the blood stops flowing - he wasn't walking around soaked in blood for this reason. Not a baker and certainly not called John Ripper - give it a rest.

[Sarah Deane]

Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) was questioned on nine occasions in relation to the murders and each time the Police disregarded him. He was even named by an associate as a suspect, but this was lost in the paperwork. He was also employed by a company that was on the list of possibles who had received a new Ł5 note in their wages delivery. This Ł5 was found on one of the victims. I seem to remember he was stopped while driving his lorry and was wearing the same boots that had left an imprint at the scene of one of the murders. When they started to clear the incident room after his capture, the police noticed that there were quite a few photofit pictures that matched Sutcliffe.

Can see the logic in what Karl says in namimg John Ripper as a possible. As far as I know, I've never heard anyone think of the name "Jack the Ripper" as anything but a nickname derived from how mutilated his victims.

It's all about different ways of thinking. You're exactly right. Sutcliffe is a great example.

[Sarah Deane]

I'm interested in why Karl dismissed the possibility of a Policeman...

Especially after the links where Scotland Yard are refusing to release 100+ year old files that would name 4 more suspects in case 'relatives are attacked'.

I find that very odd as the names of current suspects in a crime are released when there is MUCH more possibility of the relatives being targetted.

At the time of the Murders, there was a frenzy to catch the murderer - real panic on the streets.  The very worst possibility would be that the murderer was a Policeman.  Worse if Scotland Yard then conspired to keep that information from the public.  That would make sense as to why they would still be unwilling to release the files.

A beat copper would not only know the area, but also they could have approached any of the victims without suspicion.  They would know the locals and know the routine of the locals.

And, quite uniquely amongst suspects, if they were caught over the body holding the knife - they could say they had just discovered the body and knife.

Also, a Policeman with blood on his tunic can easily explain that away by having been involved in an altercation with a suspect.

Are there any in depth discussions into that possibility?

The theory that a policeman was involved, somehow, is very logical and you're right to question it. Another reason as to why so-called public files are not really public.

[Brian Blessed]

All the last few great posts have shown me is that this will never be solved. There are far too many plausible suspects. However my money is on Jon Hall's old man.

[Drippy Dick]

My money`s in Jon Hall. The brasses turned him down and he lost it.

Great thread btw

[WOOLTONIAN]

Scotland Yard said living ­relatives of the ­suspects could be ­attacked.

Part of my Theory is that my suspect had no children, therefore no possibility of living descendants.

One or two people are still questioning, why did he stop after Mary Kelly. If you look at the following link you will see there are several possible victims up to 2 years after.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/

Baker called John Ripper my arse.

Try not to get too upset,  this is only a theory

The real culprit was Jacob Levy:

Levy was questioned and cleared along with all the other suspects listed earlier in thread.
Other suspect mentioned had no connection to Whitechapel, at least my bloke Lived in the area and  Worked in the area (at night)
Anyway I am not trying to rule out current suspects, my theory is based on creating a new one.

I'm interested in why Karl dismissed the possibility of a Policeman...

I’m not really dismissing the possibility, It just reminded me of the “MOUSETRAP” plot, the longest running play in London’s history.

MichaelA
  I'm not ignoring all the No Shit Sherlock references, on the contrary my dear friend. Perhaps Sherlock never looked into the ripper case because “Once he had eliminated the impossible, whatever remained he thought, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” only led him to the conclusion that the Ripper was none other than .............DR JOHN WATSON

oooooo errrrrr !

[MichaelA]

MichaelA
  I'm not ignoring all the No Shit Sherlock references, on the contrary my dear friend. Perhaps Sherlock never looked into the ripper case because “Once he had eliminated the impossible, whatever remained he thought, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” only led him to the conclusion that the Ripper was none other than .............DR JOHN WATSON

oooooo errrrrr !

Elementary

[Red_Mist]

Missed the 'big reveal' the other day and just had to read through it all. The tension of it!

Got to agree, he's a plausible new suspect.

[Rox]

I’m not really dismissing the possibility, It just reminded me of the “MOUSETRAP” plot, the longest running play in London’s history.

Righto, fair enough. 

It's especially interesting because some of the murders were in the middle of a coppers 'beat', in one case I'm sure I read the frequency of hiim passing that spot (next to a warehouse, I think?) was 15 minutes.  Easy enough to murder the victim and then 'discover' her on the next 'round'.  He'd also know the routine of other beat coppers in the area.

No one would search a Policeman for a weapon, no one would really look too closely at the Police themselves.  The PC would then either have been sent back to the station (to clean up - he's got blood on his uniform because he discovered the body) or sent on house-to-house inquiries.  In the confusion following the discovery of the body, it would be very easy for him to slip away and come back if needed.

If the Police did suspect one of their own and put them on desk duties, or transferred them elsewhere (where other murders continued?) it would be extremely embarrassing, no matter the length of time that has passed.

There's certainly no harm in having a few theories knocking around, is there? 

IF one of the letters to the Central News Agency was genuine, presumably a Policeman would know about them and their reporters, and know the letter would be distributed more widely than just to one newspaper.

Certainly it's not beyond the realms of possibility that at least one Policeman at the time would hate the world he was working in and wanted to draw attention to it?

[Rox]

Karl, you have to feel for this contributor to Casebook who lists the census details of "John Ripper" back in 2004... and not a single person replied.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/8978.html

Looks like you're the first to take him as a suspect seriously... so you're still treading on virgin snow!

[WOOLTONIAN]

Karl, you have to feel for this contributor to Casebook who lists the census details of "John Ripper" back in 2004... and not a single person replied.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/8978.html

Looks like you're the first to take him as a suspect seriously... so you're still treading on virgin snow!

First time I've seen that. There was also a post in one of the Ancestry forums someone pointed out the other day.
I wonder why neither seemed to take it any further, strange, perhaps they had no conviction in their original ideas

[Rox]

Reading the forums is fascinating, but highlights why the mystery will never be definitively solved.  There could be incontravertable evidence and some of the 'bigwigs' would tear it to shreds!

The problem is that people (like you say) are looking for the cleverest answer, rather than a simple explanation.

Anyway, moving on to the Policeman theory again, it's interesting from the Catherine Eddowes inquest testimony of PC Edward Watkins and Kearley & Tonge Nightwatchman George Morris:

Watkins - I ran across the road to Messers Kearley & Tonge, the door was ajar, I pushed it open.

Morris - The door was knocked or pushed. I was about 2 yards from the door. I turned around and opened the door wide and saw Constable Watkins. He said "For Gods sake mate, come to my assistance". I said "Stop till I get my lamp".

Whilst Morris looked for his lamp, Watkins noted the time as 1.45am by his own watch. Inquest testimony continues: -

Morris - I immediately went outside. I said "What's the matter?". "Oh dear" he said "there's another woman cut to pieces". I said "Where is she?". He said "In the corner". I went over to the corner and shewed my light on the body.

Morris then blew upon his whistle and immediately left the Square to look for help via Mitre Street, heading towards Aldgate. Watkins stayed with the body, conducting a brief inspection best he could under the poor lighting conditions. He noted that her clothing was filthy and, upon her chemise, he also noted bloody fingermarks.

PC Edward Watkins remained with Eddowes until the arrival of City PCs James Harvey (964), Holland (814) and latterly Dr George Sequeira

By 1896 PC Watkins had retired. In 1901 he was living at Rush Green, Beacontree Heath Road, Romford, Essex with his wife and a servant, 54 year old Jessie Fowler of Hull.

I find it odd that he 'ran' across the road to check a door that was ajar when he knew the Warehouse had a nightwatchman.

I find it extremely odd that he only asked for help AFTER Morris, the nightwatchman found him (there's no idea there how long PC Watkins was with the body - although Morris' movements were apparently very well known)

I also find it very odd that it was Morris (according to testimony) blew his whistle and raised the alarm, rather than PC Watkins.  Watkins was left with the body, and had plenty of time to set the scene or hide evidence.

Also, it appears Watkins had previous for having naughty-goings-on whilst on duty (many years before - but how often would these women come forward to complain?)

Watkins appears to be very much dismissed as a suspect, but doesn't the testimony seem very odd?

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Reading the forums is fascinating, but highlights why the mystery will never be definitively solved.  There could be incontravertable evidence and some of the 'bigwigs' would tear it to shreds!

The problem is that people (like you say) are looking for the cleverest answer, rather than a simple explanation.

Anyway, moving on to the Policeman theory again, it's interesting from the Catherine Eddowes inquest testimony of PC Edward Watkins and Kearley & Tonge Nightwatchman George Morris:

I find it odd that he 'ran' across the road to check a door that was ajar when he knew the Warehouse had a nightwatchman.

I find it extremely odd that he only asked for help AFTER Morris, the nightwatchman found him (there's no idea there how long PC Watkins was with the body - although Morris' movements were apparently very well known)

I also find it very odd that it was Morris (according to testimony) blew his whistle and raised the alarm, rather than PC Watkins.  Watkins was left with the body, and had plenty of time to set the scene or hide evidence.

Also, it appears Watkins had previous for having naughty-goings-on whilst on duty (many years before - but how often would these women come forward to complain?)

Watkins appears to be very much dismissed as a suspect, but doesn't the testimony seem very odd?

Not really.   It was the duty of the police up to the late 70's to 'shake doorknobs' to see if any were unlocked and, if they were, to enter and search the place.  The fact that there was a warehouse keeper would indicate that there was valuable property in there and therefore a target for villians. He most probably entered thinking that he'd find the warehouse keeper unconcious or tied up and was staggered to find the woman's body.

The police beats were very small in those days, just a couple of streets between them with some overlapping (that's why their whistles were useful) so Watkins would be taking a real risk in butchering a woman, knowing full well that his colleagues would be alerted by the open door.

Now, if he was found in there...with the door closed behind him....well, that would be a different matter......indeed!   

[Waterloo Phil]

Brilliant Karl

Made my last hour in work fly by!!!

[Sarah Deane]

If the guy was a policeman, he'd also have been able to write the famous Jews message up on the wall, above where a bloody part of Eddowes' apron was found, and then claim he was the one who discovered it. But surely all policemen would have been questioned and the culprit soon found out?

[Rox]

If the guy was a policeman, he'd also have been able to write the famous Jews message up on the wall, above where a bloody part of Eddowes' apron was found, and then claim he was the one who discovered it. But surely all policemen would have been questioned and the culprit soon found out?

I suppose that's the thing; if it had been a Policeman and that information had been released, there would have been a riot.  Police would have been attacked - I imagine they would have feared anarchy on the streets.   The East End at that time was often described as a Powder Keg waiting to blow.  In a way trying to cover it up could have been an understandable decision.

It would explain why, even after 100+ years Scotland Yard would not still want to release files that show they weren't above a cover up.  I think the fact they won't release the files is indicative of something they would want to keep quiet.  If it was also about informants names (as they also claim) then they could easily redact the names from the files.

Lord Roger - your arguments are based on the idea PC Watkins wouldn't know the routine of his fellow officers - of course he would.  Killing in general is a risky business, so why should it be any more risky for PC Watkins?  He may not have shut the door as that would have been more suspicious to Eddowes perhaps?

I still think it's odd he didn't raise the alarm right away - for every moment he delayed, the real killer was disappearing into the night... unless...

Not saying Watkins IS the killer by the way (I'm sure there are other possibilities), just trying to open up some other avenues of thought and enquiry. 

[SP]

I still think it's odd he didn't raise the alarm right away - for every moment he delayed, the real killer was disappearing into the night... unless...

Not saying Watkins IS the killer by the way (I'm sure there are other possibilities), just trying to open up some other avenues of thought and enquiry. 

He could just have gone into shock. The average bobby was not highly trained then, and a gruesome crime scene could be enough to go into shock.

[Rox]

He could just have gone into shock. The average bobby was not highly trained then, and a gruesome crime scene could be enough to go into shock.

That might be true if Watkins had been a relatively 'new' copper, but he'd been a Policeman for 17 years before discovering Eddowes.  He'd have seen some pretty horrific things in his time.

The inquest testimony also makes clear that Watkins' beat is a 'single' beat which does not intersect with the beat of any other Policeman.

And to an earlier point, Watkins also said that "It was no unusual thing for the door to be ajar at that hour of the morning." - regarding the warehouse.

His beat around that area only took 12-14 minutes (again according to the inquest).  So if he didn't kill Eddowes, the Ripper had to lure Eddowes into that area, kill her, mutilate her and make his escape (all silently) within 10 minutes.

[SP]

That might be true if Watkins had been a relatively 'new' copper, but he'd been a Policeman for 17 years before discovering Eddowes.  He'd have seen some pretty horrific things in his time.

What we now call PTSD can hit even experienced coppers. Finding me in a wrecked car was the last straw for a PC with 15 years experience, and the quit the force with PTSD.

PTSD does not necessarily get triggered by the most horrific thing someone sees. It can often be something less horrific, but at just the wrong time.

[rob1966]

Just had a look on the casebook site and it shows PC Watkins beat http://www.casebook.org/police_officials/po-edward_watkins.html

Looking at how small the area he patrolled was and that their beats overlapped, if he'd commited the murders, surely he'd of been noticed on the nights by other officers on patrol? Different officers will have seen the Ripper, but not knowing him, they wouldn't link him, but different ones seeing a face they all knew, surely something would of twigged?