Author Topic: Paris  (Read 185199 times)

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1800 on: September 6, 2022, 02:32:30 am »
'I am pleased that UEFA has commissioned an independent investigation ...' So the Minister of State for Europe has swallowed the myth of independence. Watch this space.

Thanks for the update Phil.

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Offline mersey_paradiso

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1801 on: September 21, 2022, 12:08:56 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/sep/21/uefa-pre-prepared-champions-league-final-statement-blaming-late-fans-liverpool



Uefa’s statement apparently blaming Liverpool supporters for causing the delay to the start of the Champions League final in Paris was pre-prepared a considerable time before the day of the match, the Guardian has learned. The statement, put up on the big screen at the Stade de France, announced that a delay to the scheduled 9pm kick-off of the final between Liverpool and Real Madrid had been caused by “late arrival of fans”.

The statement incensed Liverpool supporters, thousands of whom were still stuck in chaotic queues outside the stadium despite having arrived three or more hours before 9pm. Approximately 15,000 Liverpool supporters had been held up in a dangerous, bottleneck queue at a perimeter ticket checkpoint, then denied access to the stadium at turnstiles closed by stewards and police.

As shown on the Guardian’s visual investigation*, Paris police had directed Liverpool supporters to a ticket checkpoint using an alternative route that had been a known hazard since 2016, which involved thousands of people being funnelled through a narrow subway under the A1 motorway. A risk of crushing developed in the queue there and at turnstiles that were closed for long periods. Many Liverpool supporters, who had paid up to £600 to Uefa for tickets, also suffered brutal riot policing, including pepper spray and teargas, and attacks by local French men.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/sep/21/liverpool-real-madrid-paris-stade-de-france-champions-league

The statement blaming late arrival of fans was decided on in the planning stages of the match, as the one likely to be used in the event of kick-off having to be delayed, the Guardian understands. At the end of the match Uefa made a second statement, blaming “thousands of fans” at the Liverpool end with “fake tickets” for the kick-off delay.

For many Liverpool supporters the dangers suffered at the match, and Uefa’s two statements blaming them, were traumatic echoes of the 1989 Hillsborough disaster. There, 97 supporters were unlawfully killed in a crush due to South Yorkshire police gross negligence, but the force made a false case to blame late, ticketless supporters for causing the disaster.

Ian Byrne, a Liverpool MP and supporter who was at the match, said: “I find it truly shocking and horrifying to hear that Uefa – the confederation of Europe’s national football associations including the English FA – had a pre-prepared statement blaming supporters, as a standard explanation for a kick-off delay. To do it to Liverpool supporters after everything we’ve been through is appalling. We need full answers as to how all these decisions were made.”

Steve Rotheram, the mayor of Liverpool city region, has called for Uefa’s own “independent review” of the near-disaster at the Stade de France to include a full investigation of the decision to initially delay the kick-off by only 15 minutes. He said that the Uefa president, Aleksander Ceferin, appeared to take the decision in the stadium’s VIP area, after conversations with Uefa officials and a contingent from each club.

Rotheram was also in the VIP area witnessing the crisis discussions, having been robbed of his mobile phone and wallet outside the subway, then been escorted to safety by a French police officer.

Rotheram confronted Ceferin about the dangers outside, but said the president replied dismissively that Uefa had “killed itself” to get the final staged, having switched it from St Petersburg in February. Rotheram says he replied with concern that fans outside could be killed and that Ceferin retorted: “This conversation is over.”

Rotheram then wrote to Ceferin on 6 June accusing him of being “defensive”, saying he was “disappointed” Ceferin had cut short the conversation. His letter also criticised the initial decision to delay kick-off by only 15 minutes: “The piecemeal delays to kick-off time only demonstrate the underestimation of the seriousness of the situation I and others (including representatives from Liverpool FC and the Football Association) had clearly conveyed,” the letter said.

Ceferin replied on 10 June saying: “It was never my intention to be disrespectful,” while acknowledging that “I may have appeared curt”. He explained that he was “certainly” aware of the seriousness of the crisis: “I felt I had to cut our discussion short because at that time we had bigger problems to solve: making sure there were no casualties, ensuring that fans with tickets could get into the stadium and, finally, getting the game started.”

Ceferin’s letter did not address Rotheram’s criticism of the kick-off delay, but referred to Uefa’s review, saying its remit is to understand fully what happened in Paris, and to make sure “it never happens again”.

Rotheram told the Guardian: “As Liverpool supporters know to our great cost, having suffered the Hillsborough disaster where the kick-off was not delayed, the decision is a vital one for people’s safety, as it can relieve a dangerous crisis. Ultimately the kick-off in Paris had to be delayed by 36 minutes. So the questions need to be answered as to how and why 15 minutes was initially chosen.”

Of the second statement blaming Liverpool supporters with fake tickets, Rotheram said he believed Uefa had wanted to shift the blame on to fans.

“It was right out of the playbook; they weren’t going to take responsibility. I got that feeling in the VIP area, that they didn’t want to be held responsible as an organisation.”

Uefa’s review, announced two days after the final, is due to produce a report by the end of November. On 3 June the organisation issued a “sincere apology” to spectators “who had to experience or witness frightening and distressing events in the build-up to the Uefa Champions League final … which should have been a celebration of European club football.” However Uefa has not admitted to any failings itself, or retracted the statements blaming Liverpool supporters.

The Guardian sent Uefa a detailed series of questions, about the statements, and the decision to delay the kick-off by 15 minutes, but it declined to answer. A spokesperson repeated the apology, and said: “Uefa will no longer reply to your queries until the end of the independent investigation around the events in the buildup to the Uefa Champions League final at the Stade de France on 28 May 2022 in Paris.”

The review panel is expected to meet fans’ representatives, including Liverpool’s supporters’ trust Spirit of Shankly, on Saturday.

RIP Alex Jarmay .                                           Justice  for the 97 YNWA

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Offline Mr Grieves

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1802 on: September 21, 2022, 12:15:04 pm »
Absolutely shocking.

Sadly, very few of those in power give the slightest fuck.
Put the ball in the goddamn basket chief

Offline Fromola

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1803 on: September 21, 2022, 12:16:36 pm »
Would it be a good idea to organise something with Rangers fans before the games against them, against UEFA, after Rangers themselves were subjected to inhumane treatment in Seville?
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1804 on: September 21, 2022, 12:40:27 pm »
Fucking hell.
:D

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1805 on: September 21, 2022, 12:48:27 pm »
Corrupt, dangerous cowboys.

Offline newterp

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1806 on: September 21, 2022, 12:52:53 pm »
that's wild

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1807 on: September 21, 2022, 12:57:23 pm »
That Guardian interactive is so utterly damning and just goes to show the absolute wealth of evidence against the police and UEFA. With the amount of mobile phone footage these days, I struggle to see how even a questionnably-independent UEFA investigation could still maintain fans were to blame. That is not to say they won´t try.

Absolutely sickening.

Offline Crosby Nick

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1808 on: September 21, 2022, 01:22:22 pm »
That Guardian interactive is so utterly damning and just goes to show the absolute wealth of evidence against the police and UEFA. With the amount of mobile phone footage these days, I struggle to see how even a questionnably-independent UEFA investigation could still maintain fans were to blame. That is not to say they won´t try.

Absolutely sickening.

Yeah, very well out together. Neil from TAW is clearly visible in one of the early pictures on there.

Offline has gone odd

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1809 on: September 21, 2022, 01:22:24 pm »
Woah, that is utterly horrific.

Hope the club's legals throw the utter fuckin lot at them. UEFA are utterly detestable.
- all in my opinion of course -

Offline swoopy

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1810 on: September 21, 2022, 01:37:16 pm »
Shocking stuff that.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1811 on: September 21, 2022, 01:42:34 pm »
Woah, that is utterly horrific.

Hope the club's legals throw the utter fuckin lot at them. UEFA are utterly detestable.
That Ceferin's a piece of work isn't he.
Complete 180 on state ownership and default response is to blame fans for their ineptitude.
It's never UEFA is it? They've been fucking up arrangements for finals for decades. No accountability, no consequences.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1812 on: September 21, 2022, 01:44:34 pm »
Brilliant journalism from Conn and team in that.....but thank fuck for mobile phones.

When I got home mrs thought I'd be fuming as fuck...I was to a point..but I said at the time these fuckers picked on the wrong fan base if they think they're getting away with it.

Thogh expect UEFA to congratulate their own people on job well done

Offline Fromola

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1813 on: September 21, 2022, 01:51:34 pm »
That Guardian interactive is so utterly damning and just goes to show the absolute wealth of evidence against the police and UEFA. With the amount of mobile phone footage these days, I struggle to see how even a questionnably-independent UEFA investigation could still maintain fans were to blame. That is not to say they won´t try.

Absolutely sickening.

UEFA will be unaccountable we know that much
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Red Bird

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1814 on: September 21, 2022, 01:52:17 pm »
Flippin’ heck, maybe the ESL wasn’t such a bad idea after all!

Offline End Product

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1815 on: September 21, 2022, 02:07:19 pm »
The Conn piece is excellent, only lacking in more detailed examination of leaving the hellhole but can see why there was little video evidence due to the local criminals being out in force. 
No time for caution.

Offline Barrow Shaun

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1816 on: September 21, 2022, 02:08:03 pm »
Holy shit. God Bless The Guardian for that compilation.
What a fucking shitshow.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1817 on: September 21, 2022, 02:10:07 pm »
UEFA are a scumbag institution, whose raison d'etre is to make money. They care little for football, and nothing for supporters.

They hold the organisation of enforcing monopolies on overpriced booze from sponsors  in 'fan parks' and arenas as being of greater importance than ensuring fan safety at their events.

I'm not being hyperbolic in saying that, anyone in Paris knows. They didn't even organise toilets in the area they told thousands of fans to go (and employed the police to ensure people couldn't bring their own drinks and had to pay 8euro for a beer or similar extortionate prices for essentials like water).

Offline Ycuzz

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1818 on: September 21, 2022, 02:11:15 pm »
That interactive piece from the Guardian is a belter.
@Yvanicuzz

Offline Samie

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1819 on: September 21, 2022, 02:13:27 pm »
Motherfuckers!  :no


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Re: Paris
« Reply #1820 on: September 21, 2022, 02:28:44 pm »
Motherfuckers!  :no

Yep. A cocktail of skiving, disinterest, dismissive arrogance, ignorance, violence, opportunism and callousness. Paris, France and UEFA.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1821 on: September 21, 2022, 02:41:22 pm »
UEFA are a scumbag institution, whose raison d'etre is to make money. They care little for football, and nothing for supporters.

They hold the organisation of enforcing monopolies on overpriced booze from sponsors  in 'fan parks' and arenas as being of greater importance than ensuring fan safety at their events.

I'm not being hyperbolic in saying that, anyone in Paris knows. They didn't even organise toilets in the area they told thousands of fans to go (and employed the police to ensure people couldn't bring their own drinks and had to pay 8euro for a beer or similar extortionate prices for essentials like water).

Indeed, that was the exact reason they were trying get about 50,000 of us through two two-person wide outer cordons - literally for the express purpose of confiscating booze. Mental. And that could have gone a lot worse as well if people weren´t so patient.


Offline redgriffin73

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1822 on: September 21, 2022, 03:54:59 pm »
That interactive piece from the Guardian is a belter.

It really is. I just had to stop reading it as it was starting to make me cry in work, partly from bringing it all back and partly through anger at what they got away with.
Rafa Benitez: "I'll always keep in my heart the good times I've had here, the strong and loyal support of the fans in the tough times and the love from Liverpool. I have no words to thank you enough for all these years and I am very proud to say that I was your manager. Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone."

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1823 on: September 21, 2022, 04:26:59 pm »
Shocking, but not a great surprise.

Top-level football is absolutely corrupt!

Offline Spongebob Redpants

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1824 on: September 21, 2022, 04:40:07 pm »
Nothing in The Guardian piece surprised me . Uefa are a bunch of self serving parasites - always have been , always will be .

Really need to to show Uefa what we think of them at the Rangers game .

Hats off to the Guardian though - they've been brilliant with the Paris reporting all the way through .
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 04:41:45 pm by Spongebob Redpants »
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1825 on: September 21, 2022, 04:43:38 pm »
Not a peep of this on the BBC website.

Offline Xabisfeet

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1826 on: September 21, 2022, 07:31:41 pm »
Scary stuff

Offline Red Bird

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1827 on: September 21, 2022, 09:31:17 pm »
Not a peep of this on the BBC website.
I was about too say the same.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1828 on: September 21, 2022, 10:04:08 pm »
Uefa are scum and Ceferin is unsuitable for the role, he's corrupt as they come and has been bought by the PSG and Abu Dhabi FC.

I'm all for a the ESL 110%, independent of UEFA and FIFA, who can fuck off.

"Since its purchase by the sheikh of Abu Dhabi, Manchester City has managed to cheat its way into the top echelon of European football and create a global, immensely profitable football empire, ignoring rules along the way. The club's newfound glory is rooted in lies."

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1829 on: September 21, 2022, 10:18:25 pm »
Nothing in The Guardian piece surprised me . Uefa are a bunch of self serving parasites - always have been , always will be .

Really need to to show Uefa what we think of them at the Rangers game .

Hats off to the Guardian though - they've been brilliant with the Paris reporting all the way through .

I've been highly critical of the Guardian's regular football writers, and to be honest, the work on Paris has nothing to do with them anyway - it's the likes of David Conn and certain others from the news desk who are doing the great work, not the smug, musing windbags like Wilson and Ronay, who have nothing to say other than telling us, "(insert England player here) is a lovely human being".

But credit where credit's due - the real journalists at the Guardian have done great work here. God bless David Conn, one of the few in any publication writing about football who has any backbone whatsoever.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1830 on: September 21, 2022, 10:42:30 pm »
Indeed, that was the exact reason they were trying get about 50,000 of us through two two-person wide outer cordons - literally for the express purpose of confiscating booze. Mental. And that could have gone a lot worse as well if people weren´t so patient.

Perhaps an organised campaign against Heineken is an option a little further down the line, after other avenues explored. These scumbags won't listen to anything that isn't legally imposed on them (and we've seen that the french lawmakers are liars protecting their cartel) or if their wallet is impacted.

Offline John C

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1831 on: September 21, 2022, 10:47:53 pm »
Perhaps an organised campaign against Heineken is an option a little further down the line, after other avenues explored. These scumbags won't listen to anything that isn't legally imposed on them (and we've seen that the french lawmakers are liars protecting their cartel) or if their wallet is impacted.
Yep.
Fucking corrupt c*nts, it's a fucking scandal.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1832 on: September 21, 2022, 10:49:57 pm »
Organise a protest against UEFA for the Ranger games perhaps?

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1833 on: September 21, 2022, 11:16:44 pm »

'Jordan Henderson’s father will not go to World Cup after ‘horrific’ scenes in Paris':-

Brian Henderson was caught in Champions League final chaos
‘My dad said that was him done,’ says England midfielder


www.theguardian.com/football/2022/sep/21/jordan-hendersons-father-will-not-go-to-world-cup-after-horrific-scenes-in-paris
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Offline newterp

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1834 on: September 22, 2022, 12:00:21 am »
I'm a bit baffled that a few people are saying that these statements would have been prepared in the ordinary course of planning an event like this....

That's a shocking take.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1835 on: September 22, 2022, 12:58:13 am »
That interactive piece from the Guardian is a belter.

The video of the 11 year old not wanting to ever go to a football match again is heartbreaking.
And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1836 on: September 22, 2022, 12:59:05 am »
I'm a bit baffled that a few people are saying that these statements would have been prepared in the ordinary course of planning an event like this....

That's a shocking take.

It makes sense though. It's the easy way out in terms of explaining a kickoff-delay in the short term and then having time to come up with a more specific explanation (like the 40K fake tickets) later when it's clearer what led to the delay. It also absolves Uefa from any blame, because they're not responsible for how and when the fans arrive, they're just doing everything to get people in to get the match started. We all know that it's a load of bollocks, but for the general public that explanation works.

And it's also clear why they wanted to put the blame on the fans, because the whole premise for the final (and a lot of other matches involving teams with a big following) was that there'll be a mob of tanked up football supporters looking to tear the city and the stadium down and they need to be kept under control. It started way before any reds were even in Paris with politicians saying ticketless supporters shouldn't travel and it continued on the day with how they put rules in place that you couldn't wear scarves or football shirts in certain places and with the way the fanzone was set up. Then you had the treatment of supporters on the way to and into the stadium and what apparently happened in the fanzone after the match was over.

The big problem is that the general public will believe that kind of reasoning, because in the past there have been and there still are issues with violent football supporters. So, they tar everyone with the same brush. Uefa know that and that's why they were so keen to get that message out early. They just knew that after the delayed kickoff the headlines all over the world would be "CL final started late, because of the fans". No blame for Uefa or the organisers of the event just the stupid football fans once again causing trouble. That's the message they wanted to send out, because they knew that would stick, especially with people watching the whole thing live on TV. What was uncovered in the days and weeks after the final didn't even come close to creating the same big headlines (except in England, France and maybe Spain). It was reported that the organisation was a shambles, but it wasn't really the top story, because the media had already moved on to the next thing. And loads of people who don't really care that much about football won't even have seen it, but they will probably have heard about the final (i.e. one of the biggest games in football) not starting on time, because the fans were causing trouble. That's the really despicable thing about this. Uefa knew exactly what they were doing with those early messages about the kickoff delay and in a way they got away with it (again).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 01:02:22 am by stoa »

Offline Tokyoite

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1837 on: September 22, 2022, 02:48:39 am »
This is the type of stuff that will slowly make the ESL into reality. UEFA are just not fit to rule, if you can call it that, anymore and clubs probably won't take it for much longer.

Offline Johnny Aldridge

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Re: Paris
« Reply #1838 on: September 22, 2022, 04:34:29 am »
This is the type of stuff that will slowly make the ESL into reality. UEFA are just not fit to rule, if you can call it that, anymore and clubs probably won't take it for much longer.

Uefa have a long history of picking the wrong stadiums, policing them poorly, and people dying in some cases. FIFA are as bad, fair few working class people dead to make this World Cup happen.

I’d love to say withdraw for a year in response to Paris, but there too much money involved for the club. Money we need. I think until Uefa are held directly responsible for a death or something similar, they will continue unaccountable.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #1839 on: September 22, 2022, 04:49:41 am »
Uefa have a long history of picking the wrong stadiums, policing them poorly, and people dying in some cases. FIFA are as bad, fair few working class people dead to make this World Cup happen.

I’d love to say withdraw for a year in response to Paris, but there too much money involved for the club. Money we need. I think until Uefa are held directly responsible for a death or something similar, they will continue unaccountable.

Seems to be getting worse by the day though or could be I'm paying more attention to it now. Agree we won't withdraw for a year, could work if we get other clubs on board and boycott UEFA but you'd think that instead of doing this clubs will just get together and leave it altogether, basically a ESL.

Whilst I hated the idea of ESL I'd find it difficult to turn down if it were to come back (in an updated form that is, not the one it was proposed in initially).
Hope clubs will start speaking out against UEFA.