Author Topic: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?  (Read 5815 times)

Offline DutchRed

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2011, 09:19:43 am »
People need to count their blessings. Fourteen months ago, this club was almost bankrupt. We had Hodgson in charge and had we gone bankrupt, players could have walked away for either nothing or peanuts and we could have fallen into the hands of any clown as a new owner. Relegation would have been a genuine possibility.

At the moment, Liverpool are dominating almost every game, only Tottenham and perhaps Swansea can say they really deserved anything more than a defeat. The worst problem is goals. Maxi, Kuyt, Henderson, Downing, Suarez, Carroll.. None of them are reliable goalscorers and that have cost us really deep. I'm really interested to see how we would do with a killer like Ba up front.
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Online John C

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2011, 09:21:06 am »
I don't question Kenny as a manager cos I think his tactics for most games this season have been spot on, but I do question him and Comolli when it comes to transfers. If any of Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, United and City had 100 million to spend on players, how many players that we bought would any of them have bought?
Henderson is a bit naive and really one for the future but he wouldn't be relied on had we got SG back earlier and Lucas had been injury free.
I'm not sure why Downing isn't providing inspiration but we'll all look daft if his assists and a few goals start flowing.
Enrique is excellent.
Bellamy is a gem.
Adam is a competent CM at his price in a 4231, but we need the others to be available (Spearing may not have been match fit)
Carroll is the debatable one, my view is that he isn't getting regular clear-cut chances (but for what its worth I don't expect him to see his contract out).
You know I don't need to mention Suarez at all.

Online John C

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2011, 09:22:04 am »
Anyway, where's jaffod, he'll love this.

Offline rouge nell

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2011, 09:25:29 am »
We are in one if we like it or not.

I can accept the odd poor result but in my opinion of late we should of beaten Fulham, Wigan and Blackburn. In just those three games we amounted 2 points. It's piss poor and we can't gloss over it and it's not just bad luck.

We are very much work in progress.
I agree with the odd bad result is going to happen, but i would have expected against the stronger sides but to keep reeling out the bad luck/world class saves, it comes to the point when its too easy to say and glosses over the team deficiencies.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:28:18 am by rouge nell »
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Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2011, 09:27:21 am »
I fear we are confused by our terminology. Transition implies that we have had a great, winning team which needs new blood to prosper again.

In reality, we are rebuilding. Almost from scratch. New everything.

The club was nearly lost.

This is not a transition, it is a rebirth. Such things do not happen overnight, nor in one season. The closest parallel is when Shankly took over, not when Kenny first inherited.

Time and patience builds dynasties.
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Offline subroc

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2011, 09:30:45 am »
Henderson is a bit naive and really one for the future but he wouldn't be relied on had we got SG back earlier and Lucas had been injury free.

If that were true, then Dalglish expected to be able to use Lucas and Gerrard for most of the season without any need for experienced backup. Doesn't that seem to be naive? I think on the contrary that Dalglish overestimated Henderson's readiness since he had already played in the last season in the EPL. As  a result he thought that he could lighten the wage bill by offloading Meireles and Aquilani and make do with Henderson as backup. But Henderson turned out to be greener than expected.

Offline liverpooll

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2011, 09:32:22 am »
Yes our target was 4th and yes it is likely we will now fail to reach that target.  But to talk about 'another' transitional season after all the turmoil the club has endured over the past 3 years is wrong imo.

This is a new set up we are working with here.  You can't have it right first time, every time.  Kenny signed off on Comolli's targets as well you know.  We have to let stability run its course.

Only fans have the patience and can wait.

But not the players and we have seen that. Just when we though everything was good and stability was restored, Alonso left and then few years later, Torres left. These players are not going to stay here forever, they will leave as well if the team does not reach its expectation.

And then, where is improvement to show if we are willing to accept another transitional season? If 6th is our target, then why did we try to spend on proven players with the justification being they will only help to achieve on 4th. And it is pathetic if you believe we did not spend much. We spend a lot of money when we did not have to if it was only expected to be another transitional season. All due to our insensible transfer strategy and please do not tell me , it does not matter by saying we only used Torres money etc. No good.

Offline subroc

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2011, 09:37:03 am »
Only fans have the patience and can wait.

But not the players and we have seen that. Just when we though everything was good and stability was restored, Alonso left and then few years later, Torres left. These players are not going to stay here forever, they will leave as well if the team does not reach its expectation.

And then, where is improvement to show if we are willing to accept another transitional season? If 6th is our target, then why did we try to spend on proven players with the justification being they will only help to achieve on 4th. And it is pathetic if you believe we did not spend much. We spend a lot of money when we did not have to if it was only expected to be another transitional season. All due to our insensible transfer strategy and please do not tell me , it does not matter by saying we only used Torres money etc. No good.

Absolutely - we cannot take Suarez for granted here. He is playing in the form of his life and he is being tarred and feathered by the FA and the English press right now. The temptation to leave for greener pastures that ar less hostile will be there. What if we fail to enter the CL next season? How long before the agent starts to whisper in his ear of how Milan, Madrid etc want to sign him?

Offline Passmaster Molby

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2011, 09:37:10 am »
Kenny had 6 months of last season to take a look at the squad, see who he wanted to keep and identify the areas that needed strengthening. He then went and spent big money on securing the players he wanted to move this club forward, and the owners made it clear that top 4 was a priority.

We didn't have european competition to distract us this season after we blew up in the last two matches of last season, and this would help us focus on domestic matters, eradicating issues such as fatigue and the increased chances of injuries to players as we had fewer matches and longer recovery periods between games. We would be able to field our strongest eleven in most games and have less need to rotate, meaning we could go into games in the best possible shape and with more recovery time between games we would have players playing with fewer niggles and strains. The extra days in between each match could be spent preparing for the next opponent, identifying their weakenesses and coming up with game plans to help us achieve success.

Our opponents for the top places were all competing in europe and a couple of them were also in the process of reshaping their team/squad with new faces. Arsenal were losing 2 of their best players whilst Chelsea brought a manager in with little experience, an ageing squad and as we see now are trying to adapt to a completely different style of play. Man Utd lost a lot of experience and spent big on future faces who may not be big players today but would be in future years, whilst Spurs decided to make minor alterations to their squad by bringing in 3 new faces for relative peanuts and selling a few squad players (This was a Spurs side who narrowly pipped us to 5th spot and who would have to face Europa League football) Only City made clear improvements to their squad with a couple of big money signings, and at the start of the season the majority of Liverpool fans felt top 4 was a real possibility and some even thought we could get into the mix for the title race.

Now, almost half way through the season we are being asked if we should accept this as a transitional season? This was never seen as a transitional season in September, it was seen as an opportunity to make progress on last season. With the money invested in the summer we had to improve and right now we seem to have stalled. In the last 18 games of last season under Kenny, and with an inferior squad which was often patched up with kids, we gained 33 points. This season, under Kenny and with big investment in the summer we have achieved 31 points and are already playing catch up to the top sides.

So many other clubs this summer spent money on reshaping their team/squad, and brought in a lot of new faces. Look at Newcastle, who brought in 5 or 6 new faces like we did and they have gone from strength to strength and sit one point behind us when last season they finished 12 points behind us. Pardew, like Kenny, took over part way through last season and is now well on the way to turning them into a competitive side on a much lower budget than we have had. We even took their best player off them last season and we still can't bloody outscore them!

Sadly this summers recruits have failed to impress on the whole, and as a team and a squad we have underachieved in the league. At the moment Kenny has a lot of work to do to convince myself and it seems many other fans that the club is capable of getting back into the top table of not just domestic football but European football, where Liverpool Football Club should aim to be.

Online John C

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2011, 09:41:34 am »
offloading Meireles and Aquilani and make do with Henderson as backup. But Henderson turned out to be greener than expected.
I'd have kept both of those players mate but both wanted away so there's no point going over old ground. The Henderson point is just my opinion, Kenny may think I'm talking bollocks. Don't forget Henderson may have been bought for the right, not CM, but he can be more effective at CM though.

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2011, 09:45:52 am »
"Willing"? Like it won't happen if certain people don't wish it to?

Fuckinghell, we've probably got the 6th-best side in the country. We've bought a pair of strikers that don't score, for starters. Forget the rest, we're moving forward, slower than we wall want but it is happening. An extra bit of quality could turn some of the draws into wins, just give it time.
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Offline DutchRed

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2011, 09:47:13 am »
I'd have kept both of those players mate but both wanted away so there's no point going over old ground. The Henderson point is just my opinion, Kenny may think I'm talking bollocks. Don't forget Henderson may have been bought for the right, not CM, but he can be more effective at CM though.

If both of them wanted to leave, perhaps we should have bought another midfielder.
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Offline subroc

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2011, 09:51:25 am »
Kenny had 6 months of last season to take a look at the squad, see who he wanted to keep and identify the areas that needed strengthening. He then went and spent big money on securing the players he wanted to move this club forward, and the owners made it clear that top 4 was a priority.

We didn't have european competition to distract us this season after we blew up in the last two matches of last season, and this would help us focus on domestic matters, eradicating issues such as fatigue and the increased chances of injuries to players as we had fewer matches and longer recovery periods between games. We would be able to field our strongest eleven in most games and have less need to rotate, meaning we could go into games in the best possible shape and with more recovery time between games we would have players playing with fewer niggles and strains. The extra days in between each match could be spent preparing for the next opponent, identifying their weakenesses and coming up with game plans to help us achieve success.

Our opponents for the top places were all competing in europe and a couple of them were also in the process of reshaping their team/squad with new faces. Arsenal were losing 2 of their best players whilst Chelsea brought a manager in with little experience, an ageing squad and as we see now are trying to adapt to a completely different style of play. Man Utd lost a lot of experience and spent big on future faces who may not be big players today but would be in future years, whilst Spurs decided to make minor alterations to their squad by bringing in 3 new faces for relative peanuts and selling a few squad players (This was a Spurs side who narrowly pipped us to 5th spot and who would have to face Europa League football) Only City made clear improvements to their squad with a couple of big money signings, and at the start of the season the majority of Liverpool fans felt top 4 was a real possibility and some even thought we could get into the mix for the title race.

Now, almost half way through the season we are being asked if we should accept this as a transitional season? This was never seen as a transitional season in September, it was seen as an opportunity to make progress on last season. With the money invested in the summer we had to improve and right now we seem to have stalled. In the last 18 games of last season under Kenny, and with an inferior squad which was often patched up with kids, we gained 33 points. This season, under Kenny and with big investment in the summer we have achieved 31 points and are already playing catch up to the top sides.

So many other clubs this summer spent money on reshaping their team/squad, and brought in a lot of new faces. Look at Newcastle, who brought in 5 or 6 new faces like we did and they have gone from strength to strength and sit one point behind us when last season they finished 12 points behind us. Pardew, like Kenny, took over part way through last season and is now well on the way to turning them into a competitive side on a much lower budget than we have had. We even took their best player off them last season and we still can't bloody outscore them!

Sadly this summers recruits have failed to impress on the whole, and as a team and a squad we have underachieved in the league. At the moment Kenny has a lot of work to do to convince myself and it seems many other fans that the club is capable of getting back into the top table of not just domestic football but European football, where Liverpool Football Club should aim to be.

Good post.

Offline jaffod

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2011, 10:07:57 am »
We have been in a transitional season since 1991. That is 20 years and counting.

Yep...5 year plans......final pieces of the jigsaw....works in progress.....keep 'em coming....

Offline jaffod

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2011, 10:08:53 am »
Anyway, where's jaffod, he'll love this.

Good morning John! :wave

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2011, 10:13:46 am »
Only fans have the patience and can wait.

But not the players and we have seen that. Just when we though everything was good and stability was restored, Alonso left and then few years later, Torres left. These players are not going to stay here forever, they will leave as well if the team does not reach its expectation.

And then, where is improvement to show if we are willing to accept another transitional season? If 6th is our target, then why did we try to spend on proven players with the justification being they will only help to achieve on 4th. And it is pathetic if you believe we did not spend much. We spend a lot of money when we did not have to if it was only expected to be another transitional season. All due to our insensible transfer strategy and please do not tell me , it does not matter by saying we only used Torres money etc. No good.

As Meme has said, don't confuse transitional with rebuilding from scratch.  This is rebirth.

Whilst it is fair to argue these players wont stay here forever, which players do you mean?  Adam?  Downing?  Enrique?  Gerrard?  The only players I think we're really scared of losing are Suarez and our remaining Benitez-bought players.

Just because we may finish outside the top four doesn't mean we wont bag ourselves a trophy.  Yes we all want to be top four now and we're all hopping mad that clubs around us are racking up points when they're not playing as well as we are, but it's a mistake to believe our progress has stalled.
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Offline subroc

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2011, 10:18:39 am »
As Meme has said, don't confuse transitional with rebuilding from scratch.  This is rebirth.

Whilst it is fair to argue these players wont stay here forever, which players do you mean?  Adam?  Downing?  Enrique?  Gerrard?  The only players I think we're really scared of losing are Suarez and our remaining Benitez-bought players.

Just because we may finish outside the top four doesn't mean we wont bag ourselves a trophy.  Yes we all want to be top four now and we're all hopping mad that clubs around us are racking up points when they're not playing as well as we are, but it's a mistake to believe our progress has stalled.

How can we be rebuilding from scratch when our entire defence (except for enrique), and half the midfield are from Benitez' tenure? We are still relying on the riches that were gathered during the Benitez years as the core of the team.

Yes, we are making some progress. But the other top 5 teams are making more progress and they are pulling away from us.

Which means that we have to speed up our progres, spend the money, bring in better players or mediocrity and irrelevance beckons.

Offline kdorg

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2011, 10:18:49 am »
Kenny had 6 months of last season to take a look at the squad, see who he wanted to keep and identify the areas that needed strengthening. He then went and spent big money on securing the players he wanted to move this club forward, and the owners made it clear that top 4 was a priority.

We didn't have european competition to distract us this season after we blew up in the last two matches of last season, and this would help us focus on domestic matters, eradicating issues such as fatigue and the increased chances of injuries to players as we had fewer matches and longer recovery periods between games. We would be able to field our strongest eleven in most games and have less need to rotate, meaning we could go into games in the best possible shape and with more recovery time between games we would have players playing with fewer niggles and strains. The extra days in between each match could be spent preparing for the next opponent, identifying their weakenesses and coming up with game plans to help us achieve success.

Our opponents for the top places were all competing in europe and a couple of them were also in the process of reshaping their team/squad with new faces. Arsenal were losing 2 of their best players whilst Chelsea brought a manager in with little experience, an ageing squad and as we see now are trying to adapt to a completely different style of play. Man Utd lost a lot of experience and spent big on future faces who may not be big players today but would be in future years, whilst Spurs decided to make minor alterations to their squad by bringing in 3 new faces for relative peanuts and selling a few squad players (This was a Spurs side who narrowly pipped us to 5th spot and who would have to face Europa League football) Only City made clear improvements to their squad with a couple of big money signings, and at the start of the season the majority of Liverpool fans felt top 4 was a real possibility and some even thought we could get into the mix for the title race.

Now, almost half way through the season we are being asked if we should accept this as a transitional season? This was never seen as a transitional season in September, it was seen as an opportunity to make progress on last season. With the money invested in the summer we had to improve and right now we seem to have stalled. In the last 18 games of last season under Kenny, and with an inferior squad which was often patched up with kids, we gained 33 points. This season, under Kenny and with big investment in the summer we have achieved 31 points and are already playing catch up to the top sides.

So many other clubs this summer spent money on reshaping their team/squad, and brought in a lot of new faces. Look at Newcastle, who brought in 5 or 6 new faces like we did and they have gone from strength to strength and sit one point behind us when last season they finished 12 points behind us. Pardew, like Kenny, took over part way through last season and is now well on the way to turning them into a competitive side on a much lower budget than we have had. We even took their best player off them last season and we still can't bloody outscore them!

Sadly this summers recruits have failed to impress on the whole, and as a team and a squad we have underachieved in the league. At the moment Kenny has a lot of work to do to convince myself and it seems many other fans that the club is capable of getting back into the top table of not just domestic football but European football, where Liverpool Football Club should aim to be.

You make many valid points but I think you have overlooked the role of Comolli as Director of Football and the areas he has responsibility for. It's a team effort and I don't think your post really reflects the new structure that came in towards the end of last season.

Offline uwinsa

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 10:34:54 am »
excellent OP. I view this season as one of consoladation financially and structuarlly (at the top of the club) as well as on the pitch, anything we achieve this season is a bonus really, as long as the right attitude is there and things are stable thats fine by me (i won't say im happy because obviously i would rather be further up the table) and i'll be patient

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Are we willing to accept a transitional season?
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2011, 10:37:26 am »
"Willing"? Like it won't happen if certain people don't wish it to?

Fuckinghell, we've probably got the 6th-best side in the country. We've bought a pair of strikers that don't score, for starters. Forget the rest, we're moving forward, slower than we wall want but it is happening. An extra bit of quality could turn some of the draws into wins, just give it time.

This.  Utterly pointless discussion, which already seems to be populated overwhelmingly by the same pointless posters.

Well, kids it doesn't matter if you stamp your feet and thscweam and thscweam until you are thsick.  This is a transitional season even if 4th place does remain the target. 
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