Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire

[scouseman]

why does such a high rise block of flats not have more then one staircase/mode to get out? 

[redmark]

Interestingly the original Planning Application - Design and Access Statement refers to zinc, not aluminium, cladding.

[Alan_X]

https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2017/06/15/fury-counselling-services-firefighters-involved-grenfell-cut-back

Johnson was a disgrace as Mayor. Wasting millions on his vanity projects (the Garden Bridge and Routemasters) while cutting back essential services. This isn't party political - the man is a horrible piece of work and it's staggering that anyone ever thought he was fit for senior public office.

[filopastry]

Johnson was a disgrace as Mayor. Wasting millions on his vanity projects (the Garden Bridge and Routemasters) while cutting back essential services. This isn't party political - the man is a horrible piece of work and it's staggering that anyone ever thought he was fit for senior public office.

Its amazing that he somehow managed to remain reasonably popular while in office, as you say he had an addiction to vanity projects while actually genuinely achieving very little while in office.

[redmark]

Mail Online article has prompted over 1,100 complaints to IPSO.

[Alan_X]

why does such a high rise block of flats not have more then one staircase/mode to get out? 

Because of the escape strategy and the short travel distances*. The block is compact around a central core. The strategy depends on the fire being contained at the point of origin and the stair remaining smoke free.

*Travel distance is the distance from the flat to the stairwell.

[redmark]

Because of the escape strategy and the short travel distances*. The block is compact around a central core. The strategy depends on the fire being contained at the point of origin and the stair remaining smoke free.

*Travel distance is the distance from the flat to the stairwell.

Presumably though, the single stairwell is also part of the reason for the 'Stay Put' advice: and what seems likely to be one of the most difficult-to-hear aspects as the details become clearer. A single stairwell has to cope with residents coming down, and firefighters going up. The 'stay put' advice allows firefighters to get to the source and, ideally, contain it, without residents fleeing in the opposite direction. If not, it allows them to manage the evacuation in an orderly manner.

From the stories of some of those missing presumed dead, who had been on the phone to friends and relatives, a number were told by firefighters to stay in their flat. The first crews were there in six minutes and clearly were inside the building and talking to residents, applying standard advice and clearly not anticipating the rapid spread of the fire externally. (Those firefighters in particular are going to have dire need of counselling).

[-HH-]

It's completely irrelevant because the requirement to satisfy Part B1 of the Building Regulations deals with fire safety.

Means of warning and escape

B1.

The building shall be designed and constructed so that there are appropriate  provisions for  the  early  warning of fire, and appropriate means of escape in case of fire from the building to a place of safety outside the building capable of being safely and effectively used at all material times.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/485420/BR_PDF_AD_B1_2013.pdf

That's the requirement. Why do you need to use an Act that only applies to rented accommodation when there is legislation purpose-made for fire safety in all buildings.

Some clever dick on Twitter has tried to make an issue out of something that's irrelevant to the fire. I've seen three or four people trying to make this a thing and I'm sure it's being lapped up. Lily Allen used the same line on Channel 4 news, implying that Tory MPs who are landlords voted down legislation that could have prevented the fire. If she was referring to the Bill to amend the 1985 Landlord and Tenants' Act it's a straightforward lie.

Is that where we are? It's ok to lie and spread rumours about people. Blaming them for the deaths of others with absolutely nothing to base it on except we think they're the kind of people who'd probably do that kind of thing anyway?

(By the way, you'll read a lot of people quoting the Approved Documents to Part B as if it's actually the legislation).

Right, but surely it's important to point out the legitimate concerns that the following wasn't auctioned, rather than focus on the people getting muddled about what regulation relate to what:

In 2013 the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue Group called for a review of safety regulation, after six people died and more than 20 were hurt in the 2009 blaze at Lakanal House in Camberwell .

But the group’s honorary administrative secretary, Ronnie King, said successive ministers had failed to carry out the review that the group’s report called for.

Speaking to LBC radio, he said the group had looked at fire suppression measures in all the tower blocks with similar designs as Grenfell and noted that there were around 4,000 buildings with no fire sprinklers fitted.

He added: “Our group recommended that due to the speed that the fire spread in Lakanal House, that building regulations should be reviewed.

“It's nearly 11 years since it has been reviewed.”

[redmark]

A question for a few people here who seem to have some knowledge/experience in such matters:

I've seen numerous mentions of the importance of 'fire breaks/barriers' between cladding corresponding to floors of the original concrete structure, which I get: but how effective can a break of a few inches be, if flame is leaping several feet externally (so not passing 'through' the break)? Surely a break makes sense if the panel isn't flammable, but will just be bypassed if it is?

[redmark]

Guardian live feed:

Some Grenfell residents to be rehoused outside the area

People who have lost their homes in the Grenfell Tower fire may be rehoused in other areas of London despite commitments by the government to house them locally.

Kensington and Chelsea Council said 110 households had been given temporary accommodation by Friday morning, and added that it is working to find more permanent homes.

But the authority’s latest statement said: “While we will try do our upmost to ensure those affected remain in or near the borough, given the number of households involved, it is possible the council will have to explore housing options that may become available in other parts of the capital.”

The households include people living in nearby blocks which have been evacuated because of the disaster.

Housing Minister Alok Sharma told MPs on Thursday that the Government guaranteed “that every single family” from the Tower will be rehoused in the local area.

Prime minister Theresa May gave a vaguer commitment. On Thursday she said: “I want to reassure the residents of Grenfell Tower – all of whom are in our thoughts and prayers – that the government will make every effort to make sure that they are rehoused in London and as close as possible to home.”


Noted on an earlier update, a key source of local anger is that apparently local residents/survivors have still had no contact from the council on site.

[the 92A]

Presumably though, the single stairwell is also part of the reason for the 'Stay Put' advice: and what seems likely to be one of the most difficult-to-hear aspects as the details become clearer. A single stairwell has to cope with residents coming down, and firefighters going up. The 'stay put' advice allows firefighters to get to the source and, ideally, contain it, without residents fleeing in the opposite direction. If not, it allows them to manage the evacuation in an orderly manner.

From the stories of some of those missing presumed dead, who had been on the phone to friends and relatives, a number were told by firefighters to stay in their flat. The first crews were there in six minutes and clearly were inside the building and talking to residents, applying standard advice and clearly not anticipating the rapid spread of the fire externally. (Those firefighters in particular are going to have dire need of counselling).

Because the situation was dynamic, firefighters would likely have very quickly realised this was not normal. The minute I saw the pictures I was literally astounded and knew this was a different. Fire doesn't spread like that. However, the initial crews may not have known that being committed quickly and in the building and would give out the normal advice, which saves peoples lives by making sure they don't become victims of the smoke that can be very poisonous containing all sorts of cyanides and nasties.

Through no fault of their own, they will need to be looked after because they will be running horrible questions through their minds, every firefighter in that building will be questioning every action they did thinking over and over again, could they have done more. Some will need serious help along with the residents that also will have made life and death decisions in unthinkable circumstances. The Mental health of survivors and firefighters and other emergency services needs to be upmost in the mind of the authorities.

[redmark]

Guardian live feed:

Some Grenfell residents to be rehoused outside the area

...

Council to clarify rehousing statement

Kensington and Chelsea council is rowing back on its statement that it may not be able to house all the surviving victims of the Grenfell Tower fire in the local area.

A spokesman said its statement sent out at 1.46pm was “wrong”.

It said: "While we will try do our upmost to ensure those affected remain in or near the borough, given the number of households involved, it is possible the council will have to explore housing options that may become available in other parts of the capital.”

Housing Minister Alok Sharma told MPs on Thursday that the Government guaranteed “that every single family” from the Tower will be rehoused in the local area.

A council spokesman said: “Our understanding has changed. Once our housing people have looked at this in greater detail we will be issuing a new statement.”


I think they might have had a phone call.

[redmark]

Because the situation was dynamic, firefighters would likely have very quickly realised this was not normal. The minute I saw the pictures I was literally astounded and knew this was a different. Fire doesn't spread like that. However, the initial crews may not have known that being committed quickly and in the building and would give out the normal advice, which saves peoples lives by making sure they don't become victims of the smoke that can be very poisonous containing all sorts of cyanides and nasties.

Through no fault of their own, they will need to be looked after because they will be running horrible questions through their minds, every firefighter in that building will be questioning every action they did thinking over and over again, could they have done more. Some will need serious help along with the residents that also will have made life and death decisions in unthinkable circumstances. The Mental health of survivors and firefighters and other emergency services needs to be upmost in the mind of the authorities.

Absolutely agreed. I'd guess firefighters will also become more and more outraged at going into that building, following the standard processes, not knowing the nature of the cladding and the consequences of that advice.

[DJBrenton]

I find it outrageous that cladding need not be fire proof. I am not allowed to sell/buy a second hand sofa if it's not fire retarded yet I'd be allowed to wrap a tower block in the same fabric! My first thought was 'If the cladding wasn't fireproof someone's going down for a long, long time' yet even though it's obvious to a layman what could happen if you used flammable cladding, the law didn't recognise the danger? Really?

[CheshireDave]

Housing Minister Alok Sharma told MPs on Thursday that the Government guaranteed “that every single family” from the Tower will be rehoused in the local area.

What's their definition of local though? North Kensington? London? The south east?

[redmark]

I find it outrageous that cladding need not be fire proof. I am not allowed to sell/buy a second hand sofa if it's not fire retarded yet I'd be allowed to wrap a tower block in the same fabric! My first thought was 'If the cladding wasn't fireproof someone's going down for a long, long time' yet even though it's obvious to a layman what could happen if you used flammable cladding, the law didn't recognise the danger? Really?

“We are still wrapping postwar high-rise buildings in highly flammable materials and leaving them without sprinkler systems installed, then being surprised when they burn down.”

[Dr. Beaker]

It will be interesting to see if the number of new council properties equals the number of properties required to house the survivors, or the original number of occupants. I know which one my money is on.

On a completely different point, I hope this cladding material is not easily identifiable, because terrorists would love these buildings.

[Dr. Beaker]

What's their definition of local though? North Kensington? London? The south east?

A nice safe Labour constituency maybe. Sorry for saying this, but everyone must be thinking it - well those who remember Dame Shirley Porter anyway.

[redmark]

What's their definition of local though? North Kensington? London? The south east?

There are fuller quotes; he recognised that families with children needed to be within range of the same schools and was talking primarily with K&C, then neighbouring and other London councils.

[12C]

Johnson was a disgrace as Mayor. Wasting millions on his vanity projects (the Garden Bridge and Routemasters) while cutting back essential services. This isn't party political - the man is a horrible piece of work and it's staggering that anyone ever thought he was fit for senior public office.

What sticks in my craw is the way the Fire and other responders are now "heroes" to the media.
These guys were and are always heroes but were the subject of a snide campaign (cost cutting parsimony) where Firefighters were portrayed as having jobs on the side and sleeping for most of their shift, and had pensions that were too large, at too early an age. A certain Home Secretary was behind that campaign, and also behind the idea of firefighters working to the age of 65. I know lads who were retired FB and who were incredulous saying once you got past 50 the body couldn't do the job. A friend of mine whose husband was a Fire Officer, said she dreaded the end of every shift until she knew he was safe.
The conditions that faced the emergency services were horrendous.
Thank god they believe in their vocations

[WhereAngelsPlay]

German construction companies have been banned from using plastic-filled cladding, such as Reynobond PE, on towers more than 22 metres high since the 1980s when regulations were brought in to improve fire safety at residential blocks.

Concerns that the panels could exacerbate the spread of fires led authorities to allow them only on buildings that can be reached by the fire brigade using fully-extended ladders from the ground. Taller buildings require panels with a more fire-resistant core and separate staircases for people to use if evacuation becomes necessary.

Frankfurt’s fire chief, Reinhard Ries, said he was appalled at the fire at Grenfell Tower and said tighter fire-safety rules for tower blocks in Germany meant that a similar incident could not happen there. US building codes also restrict the use of metal-composite panels without flame-retardant cores on buildings above 15 metres.

Germany is deemed to have some of the most stringent fire regulations in the world. High-rise tower blocks are common, particularly in former communist parts of the country, where they dominated new-build housing for decades. In Berlin and elsewhere, the austere blocks have become fashionable places to live, in part because of a housing shortage and the high cost of accommodation.

Berlin’s fire chief, Wilfried Gräfling, said the London fire made it clear that fire regulations should be tightened further with only mineral materials used in cladding panels. “We will try to persuade lawmakers that flammable material should no longer be allowed to be used as an insulant,” he told Der Spiegel. “Only mineral material that can’t burn, ensuring that it’s no longer possible for a fire to spread via the cladding,.”

In the UK there are no regulations requiring the use of fire-retardant material in cladding used on the exterior of tower blocks and schools. But the Fire Protection Association (FPA), an industry body, has been pushing for years for the government to make it a statutory requirement for local authorities and companies to use only fire-retardant material. Jim Glocking, technical director of the FPA, said it had “lobbied long and hard” for building regulations on the issue to be tightened, but nothing had happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors

[redmark]

The conditions that faced the emergency services were horrendous.
Thank god they believe in their vocations

It's not just the emergency services, though clearly they're the ones in the most dangerous situations and most visibly impacted. There's an article in the Guardian by a former member of staff at KCTMO, about the impact of cuts on their workload - at the same time as those cuts increase the issues faced by their clients in the social housing sector. It occurred to me the other day when we all started wondering about building regulations and inspections; if councils have cut 40%, how effective are their less visible services like building regulation inspectors? (Leaving aside the specifics of this case and possible conflicts of interest on such a prominent project).

My partner works in social services child protection - not the most popular of public sector workers much of the time, but harshly judged whenever something goes wrong. Her council's department has 'restructured' (again) in response to cuts and made a significant change to process (new responsibilities, with no training or support); the reduced department is at about 70% staffing, with unfilled vacancies as people leave the service or are signed off with stress and depression. Agency staff are heavily relied on. She's supposed to have four social workers reporting to her, and has two. Workload is up; the fully staffed team is supposed to have a maximum caseload of 60-70; it's just short of 100, at 60% staffed. For several weeks, she's worried that she or one of her team will make a significant mistake - they don't have the time to know, let alone understand the background in any detail, of many new cases being picked up. Last Friday evening, she was in tears.



BBC News, angry crowds descending on K&C Town Hall. It was coming.

[redmark]

BBC News reporter: "Excuse me, would you mind speaking to BBC News?"; "I'm a journalist".

[Alan_X]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors

Still need to see the final report but that doesn't look good for the contractor. The charitable view would have been that someone made an error and didn't know. If it was a conscious decision to save money by not going with the fire rated version for cost that's a different case.

Still a range of factors to look - would sprinklers have coped with the scale of the fire on the outside of the building? BS 9251:2005 (Sprinkler systems for residential and domestic occupancies) assumes that the sprinklers operate at the point of origin and put the fire out there. Whether sprinkler could have extinguished multiple fires on multiple floors would need to be considered.

[redmark]

Wow. BBC News not cutting away from the most extreme of conspiracy theories being voiced by a woman on the protest outside Kensington Town Hall.

[Dr. Beaker]

Wow. BBC News not cutting away from the most extreme of conspiracy theories being voiced by a woman on the protest outside Kensington Town Hall.

I couldn't make out what she was going on about other than slating the police for not allowing people to run into the building to rescue people?!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Still need to see the final report but that doesn't look good for the contractor. The charitable view would have been that someone made an error and didn't know. If it was a conscious decision to save money by not going with the fire rated version for cost that's a different case.

Still a range of factors to look - would sprinklers have coped with the scale of the fire on the outside of the building? BS 9251:2005 (Sprinkler systems for residential and domestic occupancies) assumes that the sprinklers operate at the point of origin and put the fire out there. Whether sprinkler could have extinguished multiple fires on multiple floors would need to be considered.

The poor don't need sprinklers,we don't even need them in our schools.Cannot believe that twat claimed that the residence didn't want a sprinklers system,just goes to show how out of touch he is considering all we know about the peoples fears before this tragedy.

Omnis the company who acted as middle men (obviously taking a cut) between Reynobond and Harley facades don't even offer that type of panel on their website.
http://omnisexteriors.com/rainscreen-panels/

[redmark]

I couldn't make out what she was going on about other than slating the police for not allowing people to run into the building to rescue people?!

The chant was "not 17, thousands are dead". Which seems... unlikely.

It seemed to be an extension of the 'stay put' advice, alleging that that was 'enforced' in some cases and that there was no serious rescue attempt for the first four hours of the fire.

The line "facebook doesn't lie" was ironic.

[redmark]

I couldn't be a news reporter at stuff like that.

[12C]

It's not just the emergency services, though clearly they're the ones in the most dangerous situations and most visibly impacted. There's an article in the Guardian by a former member of staff at KCTMO, about the impact of cuts on their workload - at the same time as those cuts increase the issues faced by their clients in the social housing sector. It occurred to me the other day when we all started wondering about building regulations and inspections; if councils have cut 40%, how effective are their less visible services like building regulation inspectors? (Leaving aside the specifics of this case and possible conflicts of interest on such a prominent project).

My partner works in social services child protection - not the most popular of public sector workers much of the time, but harshly judged whenever something goes wrong. Her council's department has 'restructured' (again) in response to cuts and made a significant change to process (new responsibilities, with no training or support); the reduced department is at about 70% staffing, with unfilled vacancies as people leave the service or are signed off with stress and depression. Agency staff are heavily relied on. She's supposed to have four social workers reporting to her, and has two. Workload is up; the fully staffed team is supposed to have a maximum caseload of 60-70; it's just short of 100, at 60% staffed. For several weeks, she's worried that she or one of her team will make a significant mistake - they don't have the time to know, let alone understand the background in any detail, of many new cases being picked up. Last Friday evening, she was in tears.



BBC News, angry crowds descending on K&C Town Hall. It was coming.

Social worker? I'm not brave enough.

[TheShanklyGates]

Very important petition for an INQUEST into Grenfell rather than a public inquiry. As we well know the latter allows the government to control the findings and potentially cover up key details. Those responsible must be held accountable -

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament-this-government-must-carry-out-an-inquest-into-the-grenfell-tragedy-not-a-public-inquiry

The leader of the protest outside Kensington and Chelsea council has just made this point in an interview on the BBC.

[redmark]

Social worker? I'm not brave enough.

Me neither. Cushy private sector IT job - that lets me work from home watching BBC News and posting on RAWK.

And I get paid more than she does.

[Fiasco]

Some of the protests at Kensington town hall are getting a little out of hand. Nothing major but not entirely peaceful. But I can completely understand the anger, frustration and confusion from those protesting.

[redmark]

Theresa May is apparently in a church near the site and now 'trapped' by a growing crowd outside.

[redmark]

Sky News' reporter left the protest half an hour or so ago with the crowd getting "hostile to the media". The BBC's Dan Johnson is still stood surrounded by fairly angry protesters and reporting regularly to camera. No doubt being bloody careful with his words.

[Trada]

Theresa May is apparently in a church near the site and now 'trapped' by a growing crowd outside.

Saying she left by a side door with crowd chanting "coward" at her.

[El Denzel Pepito]

Theresa May is apparently in a church near the site and now 'trapped' by a growing crowd outside.

This is the Prime Minister of the UK. A bloody difficult woman. What a fucking joke.

Feel so sorry for those who've been affected by this, it's a thing out of nightmares.

[redmark]

Saying she left by a side door with crowd chanting "coward" at her.

She messed up yesterday by not visiting the Westway centre. No way she could speak to a crowd there now, from what I'm seeing on TV.

[redmark]

Downing Street have stated that a £5m fund has been made available.

News reporting that May visited the tower and met families. (Pics, or it didn't happen).
Looks like BBC got that wrong. Guardian reporting that the meeting with some families happened in the church, and May announced the £5m emergency fund to them.

[Dr. Beaker]

Downing Street have stated that a £5m fund has been made available.

News reporting that May visited the tower and met families. (Pics, or it didn't happen).

They probably bussed some plebs in from tory central office.