Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire

[Alan_X]

This is interesting regarding Alucobest in Australia back in 2015 ... http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4243787.htm

...MADELEINE MORRIS: So this is the cladding that was used on the Lacrosse Building. The brand name is Alucobest, but there are a number of different brands. On the outside, it's got aluminium, on the inside, it's got a polyethylene, or plastic, fibre. This is the cladding that should be used. It's called Alucobond. Aluminium again on the outside, but on the inside, it's got a mineral fibre core. But, to the naked eye, you would never know the difference.

Melbourne's Metropolitan Fire Brigade asked the CSIRO to test Alucobest's combustibility.

CSIRO REPRESENTATIVE: When we lowered the Alucobest in, because there's a polymer core to the sample, it started to flame at 55 seconds, so it is a combustible material.

MADELEINE MORRIS: 55 seconds to catch fire in a test.

This fire brigade animation shows how the fire, lit by a smouldering cigarette on the eighth floor of the Lacrosse Building, swept up 13 stories in as many minutes. It's running up the cheap, plastic-filled cladding.

MICHAEL O'CONNOR: This product is rife. It's used in buildings throughout Australia. All the information we're receiving, Brisbane, Perth, Melbourne, every capital city, we believe this product is used in many buildings and particularly in high rise buildings.

MADELEINE MORRIS: It shouldn't be. Building regulations prohibit the use of Alucobest cladding on high rise buildings. It is allowed on low rise buildings and that's why it's imported into Australia and easy to buy.

MICHAEL O'CONNOR: The material that's fire-resistant is a lot more expensive than the material that isn't, so if you're a builder and you see two different products, one's a lot cheaper and you get told that it meets Australian standard, you can't blame the builder for going for that product.

MADELEINE MORRIS: The problem is, surveyors may not know if builders have illegally used the flammable cladding on skyscrapers.

SCOTT WILLIAMS, CEO, FIRE PROTECTION ASSOC.: Quite often they're involved sometimes too at the end of the process, and when a building is built, as I said, and the product looks and feels the same, and unless they've got documentation and they've got evidence, really, they're just taking a guess.

MADELEINE MORRIS: And proper documentation about the materials used on buildings is frequently absent....

My post from yesterday:

I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.

[stewil007]

I don't think it's necessarily sensationalist. What those people went through was a living hell and I think it's important for that to be conveyed to the public. This is what OUR society has become in 2017 Britain. I think everyone in Britain should know the full consequences of the decisions we've made to get us here. Simply reporting that X number of people have died in a building fire doesn't do that. 

Its the way in which its conveyed I have a problem with.  The reporter can stand in front of the camera and tell us eyewitness accounts in a calm and respectful manner, or we get the other side of it, which is the 'me and Trace saw the worst thing ever when a bloke jumped from the 10th floor - it was 'orrible and I'm so affected by it......' and so on and the reporter lapping it up.

Anyway, this is a side issue to what has sadly happened and I hope they get to the bottom of it

[Millie]

I disagree with those who don't like the way this isn't being reported.  this is making us the public very angry and I can't help thinking that if Hillsborough had had the same type of reporting that it would have been much harder to cover up.

[Salger]

I manage an estate of approx. 200 residential flats in London. 30 blocks, all Georgian Grade II listed. I've spent the past two days double checking every fire alarm system is working and every action from our fire risk assessments has been completed but the consequences of a fire here terrify me. Due to the listed building status and the age of the buildings, there are limits to what can be done to effectively protect the occupants (and buildings) from a fire (there are also so many exceptions as to what we are legally obligated to do). We can put all the detection systems we want in, but if a fire starts, you know it's going to spread across a terrace pretty bloody quickly.

[Jimmy Conway]

I manage an estate of approx. 200 residential flats in London. 30 blocks, all Georgian Grade II listed. I've spent the past two days double checking every fire alarm system is working and every action from our fire risk assessments has been completed but the consequences of a fire here terrify me. Due to the listed building status and the age of the buildings, there are limits to what can be done to effectively protect the occupants (and buildings) from a fire (there are also so many exceptions as to what we are legally obligated to do). We can put all the detection systems we want in, but if a fire starts, you know it's going to spread across a terrace pretty bloody quickly.

To be fair mate, you shouldn't be waiting till an incident like this to happen, to be doing the above mentioned.

[Salger]

To be fair mate, you shouldn't be waiting till an incident like this to happen, to be doing the above mentioned.

You're right and trust me, it is all done but I'm double and triple checking, even though I'm confident it's all good. Our fire systems are checked on a quarterly basis and we have a compliance system which is rigorously policed.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

To be fair mate, you shouldn't be waiting till an incident like this to happen, to be doing the above mentioned.

He said double checking, implying he had already done one, to be fair...

[Jimmy Conway]

You're right and trust me, it is all done but I'm double and triple checking, even though I'm confident it's all good. Our fire systems are checked on a quarterly basis and we have a compliance system which is rigorously policed.

He said double checking, implying he had already done one, to be fair...

Fair play, sorry if I caused an offence mate.

[cdav]

Full public inquiry launched:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291227

The worry is that this will drag on and that a lot of people will be at risk of similar incidents whilst this inquiry is going on. Hopefully, as Salger has said they have done, people responsible for these buildings are currently checking them again to make sure all fire systems and risk assessments are fully up to date and adequate (we had a fire alarm test and evacuation yesterday at work, as I'm sure most workplaces will have done). It is usually out of such disasters that real change in regulations and improvements are made, hopefully it is the same again.

[filopastry]

Full public inquiry launched:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291227

The worry is that this will drag on and that a lot of people will be at risk of similar incidents whilst this inquiry is going on. Hopefully, as Salger has said they have done, people responsible for these buildings are currently checking them again to make sure all fire systems and risk assessments are fully up to date and adequate (we had a fire alarm test and evacuation yesterday at work, as I'm sure most workplaces will have done). It is usually out of such disasters that real change in regulations and improvements are made, hopefully it is the same again.

Sadiq Khan has called for an interim report by no later than the end of the summer, hopefully that will be the case.

[Alan_X]

I know this is hard for some to understand but how brilliant Jeremy was is not the most important thing here. The important here is to investigate the cause thoroughly and ensure people are safe.

The mud-slinging can wait.

[Alan_X]

I disagree with those who don't like the way this isn't being reported.  this is making us the public very angry and I can't help thinking that if Hillsborough had had the same type of reporting that it would have been much harder to cover up.

By the same token, one of the hardest things to overcome was the inflammatory assertions made immediately after the event by people who 'knew' why it happened and who was to blame.

Far too much politicking going on.

[Alan_X]

Full public inquiry launched:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291227

The worry is that this will drag on and that a lot of people will be at risk of similar incidents whilst this inquiry is going on. Hopefully, as Salger has said they have done, people responsible for these buildings are currently checking them again to make sure all fire systems and risk assessments are fully up to date and adequate (we had a fire alarm test and evacuation yesterday at work, as I'm sure most workplaces will have done). It is usually out of such disasters that real change in regulations and improvements are made, hopefully it is the same again.

There will be huge pressure for effective action. Something has gone horribly wrong and innocent people have died.

[Salger]

Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  38m38 minutes ago
 I'm waiting outside main Westminster Hall room where fire & police minister Nick Hurd will brief MPs on #GrenfellTower fire & take Qs

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  35m35 minutes ago
 I'm not imagining we'll get much new info.  But shows pressure from MPs for some answers.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  33m33 minutes ago
 Room is packed. Hurd & Alok Sharma - new housing minister - will speak. We're told this is "unprecedented" type of session.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  32m32 minutes ago
 Nick Hurd: "What we are dealing with here is a national tragedy". Pays tribute to emergency services.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  30m30 minutes ago
 Nick Hurd speaking v sombrely. Says firefighters at scene saw & dealt with things no one should have to experience. Praises local community

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  28m28 minutes ago
 Hurd confirms that basic search now done to top floor of #GrenfellTower but that more detailed search will take time.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  28m28 minutes ago
 Hurd says authorities are acutely aware of desire of missing people's loved ones for news, and process is happening as fast as possible.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  27m27 minutes ago
 Hurd: this is "an exceptionally complex" investigation and people should avoid jumping to conclusions about the cause.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  25m25 minutes ago
 Hurd says he would expect all housing providers and fire services to assure people, esp in high rise blocks, they feel & are safe.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  25m25 minutes ago
 Hurd now taking questions.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  23m23 minutes ago
 First up is new Kensington MP Emma Dent Coad. She sounds distraught as she seeks "urgent, fair, transparent" response on series of Qs ...

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  22m22 minutes ago
 ... These Qs include whether correct materials were used, if worries about fire safety heeded, and if response worked properly.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  21m21 minutes ago
 Emma Dent Coad also seeks assurances all #GrenfellTower locals are re-housed locally in Kensington.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  20m20 minutes ago
 Next up is shadow housing minister John Healey. He says government is "in paralysis" which is why they need this session.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  19m19 minutes ago
 Healey: "No fire in a single flat should cause such devastation" and "no minister should rest" till answers provided.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  18m18 minutes ago
 Healey says govt should not wait for public inquiry but act now to make blocks safe, e.g. by installing sprinkler systems.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  17m17 minutes ago
 Healey says we know many lessons about such incidents from Lakanal House & Southampton blazes - need action now.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  16m16 minutes ago
 Now David Lammy up: says friend presumed dead in fire was on Facebook at 3.30am - fire started about 1am. How could this happen?

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  15m15 minutes ago
 Lammy urges corporate manslaughter charges against those responsible for the tragedy. Must be "culpability", he says.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  14m14 minutes ago
 Lammy also urges long-term help for homeless residents in the years to come - "not just when the cameras are there".

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  10m10 minutes ago
 Labour MP Andy Slaughter says scale of fire is "undoubtedly a national disaster" - people need to be sure their homes are safe.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  8m8 minutes ago
 Karen Buck, whose constituency used to include #GrenfellTower says people need "not blame but accountability", and soon, "not in years"

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  7m7 minutes ago
 Next is Harriet Harman, whose constituency contains Lakanal House, where 6 people killed in fast-spreading fire in 2009.

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  6m6 minutes ago
 Harman says should recognise how hard it is for people who have lost everybody. "This is a job for the government, for the state".

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  4m4 minutes ago
 Harman: "We have got to get on with this". Lakanal fire 2009, inquest 2013, court case 2015, Harman says - "this is too slow"

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  3m3 minutes ago
 Harman: "We have got to decide now, all of us, that this feeling of what needs to be done, we make those resources available."

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  2m2 minutes ago
 Harman says that if all MPs don't push for rapid action, "we are all culpable".

 Peter Walker‏Verified account @peterwalker99  1m1 minute ago
 Now Jeremy Corbyn up: says he has just come from #GrenfellTower and "I am very angry" this could have happened - as are residents.

Peter Walker‏Verified account
@peterwalker99
Corbyn asks how residents' concerns were seemingly not heeded, and how the fire could spread in this way.

[FlashingBlade]

'Red Tape'

When the enquiary is completed the method of construction will be the main focus ( along with emergency action measures)

I worked in a regulated enviroment ( Highways and Project Management) for 35 years and over that that time the attitude to regulaton had changed as developers sought to reduce costs etc. Tory ( and it has to be said Labour) Goverments listened to developers and sought to reduce regulations especially in the 'Built Enviroment' to 'free up' the developers, grow the economy etc etc.

'Red Tape'

The Health and Safety Excutive became a by word for over efficious burercats, and I worked with some and they could be right tossers, but I understood their aims

More 'Red Tape'

The developement of buildings is regulated by Local Authority Building Control officers, or not as often the case is ,as developers where 'freed up' to go to 'independendent '  building control officers which Local Authorities cant really challenge on their 'approvals'.

'Red Tape' costs money.

In my work I met so many developers looking to attack any cost implicaitons brought about by regulations ( in place for a range of reasons, Safety often the main focus) and if not happy they would go to senior management or politicians to get their way and often they would.

Practioners in the built enviroment who's role is to ensure compliance with regualtions have been under attack for years, they are mostly in the public sector and have been subject to  political 'demonisation' by the Tories and the cuts have meant staffing numbers fall and the abilty to do the job well is at risk...and that leads to big 'risks' in safety.  The Developers won.

'Red Tape' saves lives..but not this week , the focus ultimaltey will fall on those who said the materials where safe and 'allowed' the materials to be used, my guess is the developers will say " but it was all approved" and the focus will fall on the enablers not the developers.

How on earth such a horrfic disaster can happen in this day and age is beyond belief, Im old enough to remember 'Summer Land'
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerland_disaster ) Ronan Point ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point ) the sort of disasters which raised the regualtion on buildings and Health and Safety , sadly and criminally those aims have been erased by the greed of developers supported by the Tories and the public buying into an aversion to 'Red Tape'

[redalways]

I disagree with those who don't like the way this isn't being reported.  this is making us the public very angry and I can't help thinking that if Hillsborough had had the same type of reporting that it would have been much harder to cover up.

The difference is the Internet. I have no doubt that the establishment will wriggle like worms to deflect blame but eventally the truth will out. Instead of it taking over 25 years as is the case with Hillsborough I cannot see it stretching that long. But rest assured people like Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson are ruthless bastards and will wriggle and wriggle.

[SP]

I disagree with those who don't like the way this isn't being reported.  this is making us the public very angry and I can't help thinking that if Hillsborough had had the same type of reporting that it would have been much harder to cover up.

My comment on the first day was that the coverage was ghoulish. The bare facts of what happened are horrific enough. The relish with which certain rolling news stations are reporting gory details is grotesque. The public anger would be there even without Sky News milking it.

[stewil007]

My comment on the first day was that the coverage was ghoulish. The bare facts of what happened are horrific enough. The relish with which certain rolling news stations are reporting gory details is grotesque. The public anger would be there even without Sky News milking it.

This was sort of my point above, but its not just Sky News, its all of them......a race to the bottom

[Igor Tripod Biscan]

Delightful 'fuck you' from one of the fire fighters

https://twitter.com/SunApology/status/875103744492437508

[gamble]

I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.

Never in my lifetime did I think that ACM would become an issue for the the man on the street. Been using various versions of composite panels for signage and cladding for over a decade. I've even designed tooling for such panels (which I am yet to launch), these kind of installations are absolutely everywhere in every town,every city and in every part of the world. We will have to wait for the investigations as everyone is shocked by the way the fire behaved, but my gut feeling is that there was illegal with the cladding under existing regulations - which will need reviewing (for anybody interested: http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/).

There was a definite system failure in fire safety management, so don't believe you can just point to design and specification of the building elements.

Co-incidentally was dealing with a HSE official yesterday and spoke about this and his anger was at the lowering of standards and the race to the bottom. People now hopefully are realising this can't go on.

[Alan_X]

Never in my lifetime did I think that ACM would become an issue for the the man on the street. Been using various versions of composite panels for signage and cladding for over a decade. I've even designed tooling for such panels (which I am yet to launch), these kind of installations are absolutely everywhere in every town,every city and in every part of the world. We will have to wait for the investigations as everyone is shocked by the way the fire behaved, but my gut feeling is that there was illegal with the cladding under existing regulations - which will need reviewing (for anybody interested: http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/).

There was a definite system failure in fire safety management, so don't believe you can just point to design and specification of the building elements.

Co-incidentally was dealing with a HSE official yesterday and spoke about this and his anger was at the lowering of standards and the race to the bottom. People now hopefully are realising this can't go on.

Thanks - I'd read that. As you say we'll need to wait for the investigation and report.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Watching the news last night was just so sad and at the same time so annoying.  I fail to believe a fire of such magnitude couldn't of been avoided.

Rubbish,just look at the state of the outside of the building,this fire was the resuly of cheap flammable cladding & I do not need an investigation to come to that conclusion.

[Big Red Richie]

Rubbish,just look at the state of the outside of the building,this fire was the resuly of cheap flammable cladding & I do not need an investigation to come to that conclusion.

Sound. When are you publishing your report, and presenting your findings to the media? 

[Alan_X]

Rubbish,just look at the state of the outside of the building,this fire was the resuly of cheap flammable cladding & I do not need an investigation to come to that conclusion.

Yes you do. It looks like the cladding was a factor but there will be many factors that contributed to this. Your expertise is in a particular type of cladding and that's it. Show a little humility and maybe accept that your comments are alarmist and could frighten people unnecessarily.

[Red Beret]

Still trying to get my head around how a fire that started inside an apartment managed to ignite external panelling and sweep up the entire building in a matter of minutes.

I'm actually starting to wonder if nearby buildings created some kind of vortex effect, where the wind funnelled and fanned the flames.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.

Newsnight said that they used the cheaper version.

Rockwool/mineral fibre can withstand temperatures of upto 1000 degrees.Had it been used this would not have happened,there would have been a fire but it would not have spread up the outside of the building.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I disagree with those who don't like the way this isn't being reported.  this is making us the public very angry and I can't help thinking that if Hillsborough had had the same type of reporting that it would have been much harder to cover up.

Cdav posted this lastnight..

Brilliant article (yet again) by Tony Barrett:

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/why-it-is-vital-to-amplify-the-distraught-voices-of-grenfell-tower-residents-who-were-ignored-for-too-long-129580

[Dr. Beaker]

Still trying to get my head around how a fire that started inside an apartment managed to ignite external panelling and sweep up the entire building in a matter of minutes.

I'm actually starting to wonder if nearby buildings created some kind of vortex effect, where the wind funnelled and fanned the flames.

A rough guess would be that it was a kitchen fire and the windows were open due to it being one of the hottest days of the year. I would guess that a lot of people had their windows open, with disastrous consequences.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

'He survived Assad only to be killed in a tower block in London': First victim of Grenfell fire is Syrian refugee Mohammed al-Haj Ali

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/came-better-life-first-victim-grenfell-fire-syrian-refugeemohammad/

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yes a brilliant reply

Delightful 'fuck you' from one of the fire fighters

https://twitter.com/SunApology/status/875103744492437508

I hope that he wasn't forced to but he has now deleted his twitter account.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Sound. When are you publishing your report, and presenting your findings to the media? 

You can roll your eyes chap but I have in the past built boxes out of panels that were looking for certification that the firebrigade then came along and set fire to,so I do have experience and I also have me eyes.

Now it seems that manufacturers no longer need to get approval and that is scandalous.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yes you do. It looks like the cladding was a factor but there will be many factors that contributed to this. Your expertise is in a particular type of cladding and that's it. Show a little humility and maybe accept that your comments are alarmist and could frighten people unnecessarily.

It isn't in just one type of cladding/composite panels Alan,just look at the state of the outside of that building,it looks like it was covered of cork (I know that it wasn't).

The flames spread up the outside of the building & the contractor decided to go with the cheaper more flammable option (as reported on newsnight).

[Alan_X]

Newsnight said that they used the cheaper version.

Rockwool/mineral fibre can withstand temperatures of upto 1000 degrees.Had it been used this would not have happened,there would have been a fire but it would not have spread up the outside of the building.

Could you explain exactly what you're talking about? Rockwool mineral insulation? Or the ACM panels? 

What do you think the facade build up was?  How do you think the fire traveled? In most similar cases the hot gases travel up the cavity before catching fire in which case fire breaks are more important than the material itself.

[Millie]

My comment on the first day was that the coverage was ghoulish. The bare facts of what happened are horrific enough. The relish with which certain rolling news stations are reporting gory details is grotesque. The public anger would be there even without Sky News milking it.

I don't watch Sky.


What I am trying to get across is that human stories are very important.  I was just one family member re Hillsborough but I can't help wondering if we had been allowed to tell our human stories in the days following that it may have been seen differently. That is a human tragedy and not just football fans, who back then, as we all know we're treated with contempt.

[Alan_X]

It isn't in just one type of cladding/composite panels Alan,just look at the state of the outside of that building,it looks like it was covered of cork (I know that it wasn't).

The flames spread up the outside of the building & the contractor decided to go with the cheaper more flammable option (as reported on newsnight).

I know what you're saying but the reference to the cheaper material was the ACM panels. I don't think anyone's commented on the insulation behind. Something clearly went wrong but I would rather wait until the full inspection and report is done before drawing too many conclusions.

[DivisiveNewSigning]

Mr Al Hajali was with his older brother, Omar, in the flat but lost each other on the way out, says the Syria Solidarity Campaign.

His brother was rescued by firefighters while Mr Al Hajali went back upstairs.

Mohammed was on the phone for two hours with a friend in Syria, waiting to be rescued. He was trying to reach his family in Syria but he could not get connected to them due to the situation in Syria. He had not seen his family for four years. When the fire reached his flat on the 14th floor, Mohammed bid his friend goodbye, saying that the fire had reached him. He asked his friend to pass on the message to his family. We were expecting Mohammed and his two brothers at our Syrian Refugee Community Iftar in Chalk Farm this Saturday as part of The Great Get Together and Refugee Week. We will instead be paying tribute to Mohammed and all those who lost their lives in this tragic fire on Saturday. Mohammed undertook a dangerous journey to flee war and death in Syria, only to meet it here in the UK, in his own home. Mohammed came to this country for safety and the UK failed to protect him. We absolutely agree that a thorough investigation into Building Regulations should take place immediately.

Fucking heart-wrenching stuff.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Could you explain exactly what you're talking about? Rockwool mineral insulation? Or the ACM panels? 

What do you think the facade build up was?  How do you think the fire traveled? In most similar cases the hot gases travel up the cavity before catching fire in which case fire breaks are more important than the material itself.

I am saying that were the panels made from rockwool there wouldn't have been any spread on the outside but I am even boring myself now & I really don't want to annoy people by constantly repeating myself & to be honest whilst the dead need to be revovered and identified I can see why people would get pissed at me going on and on.

http://www.eurobond.co.uk/

Here is another alternative to what they used.

http://static.rockwool.com/globalassets/rockpanel/documentation/rockpanel-stones/rockpanel_stones_en.pdf

http://static.rockwool.com/globalassets/rockpanel/documentation/uk/general-brochures/rockpanel_stones_ebook_en.pdf

[FlashingBlade]

Guardian making same point as my post , but more articulate than me.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/grenfell-tower-red-tape-safety-deregulation

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I know what you're saying but the reference to the cheaper material was the ACM panels. I don't think anyone's commented on the insulation behind. Something clearly went wrong but I would rather wait until the full inspection and report is done before drawing too many conclusions.

Thanks because I really don't want to piss people off,the cladding used was manufatured by Reynobond and newsnight claimed that Rydon decided to go with the cheaper of Reynobonds product and not the more expensive less flamable option.Until this I honestly thought that our regulations would mean that any cladding used in the uk after previous fires on highrises would now force developers to use the safest option.The wheel didn't need inventing because it was already available.

[Alan_X]

I am saying that were the panels made from rockwool there wouldn't have been any spread on the outside but I am even boring myself now & I really don't want to annoy people by constantly repeating myself & to be honest whilst the dead need to be revovered and identified I can see why people would get pissed at me going on and on.

http://www.eurobond.co.uk/

Here is another alternative to what they used.

http://static.rockwool.com/globalassets/rockpanel/documentation/rockpanel-stones/rockpanel_stones_en.pdf

http://static.rockwool.com/globalassets/rockpanel/documentation/uk/general-brochures/rockpanel_stones_ebook_en.pdf

Not at all. I think we were at cross purposes. I know what you're talking about now. I still think it's too early to say that those panels would have definitely prevented everything that happened (there should still be fire stops at each floor) but they would have maintained integrity and not have contributed to the heat and smoke.