Author Topic: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach  (Read 68683 times)

Offline No666

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And a shout-out to a man who must have enjoyed yesterday on two levels. Thank God he didn't pick Lim.
From the Echo of a couple of days ago:

It was the finest assist in Liverpool Football Club history.

After six months of bitter boardroom struggle, Sir Martin Broughton became the quiet hero who sold the Reds to Fenway Sports Group and ended the miserable Tom Hicks and George Gillett reign.

Ten years on, his vision is about to get the ultimate vindication of a Premier League title.

And Broughton will allow himself a smile. Despite divided loyalties.

"I've been going down to Chelsea regularly for 66 years," he says. "I first went when I was seven. The allegiance is extremely strong. But you can't come into a club like Liverpool and not build an allegiance very quickly.

"Chelsea vs Liverpool games are very difficult. I find myself supporting two teams and I don't like it when they play each other."

But for the rest of this campaign there is only one priority: "I'll be supporting Liverpool and I hope to watch the title change hands."


Offline Wabaloolah

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I wonder how our former owners are feeling today but then again as Virgil once said, who cares!!
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


If anyone is going to put a few fingers deep into my arse it's going to be me.

Offline JerseyKloppite

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I agree bizarre thing to say today but he did post it in July 2019 whilst we were basking in the glory of the CL win.

Moaners will be moaners

I just realised that now :lmao

Offline groove

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It's interesting to think back to the beginning of FSGs reign and the criticism they faced with the moneyball approach. That Edwards was just a nerd with a laptop and didn't know anything about football. The misunderstanding of the concept of value and assuming it just meant budget. That football is too complicated or too 'human' to be quantifiable and have the scientific method applied to certain parts of it. All looks very silly now.

Offline rebel23

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AP article on the owners (US focus)

Shouting distance: Henry, Werner cheer Liverpool title

https://apnews.com/8f916adcb7e3a07a8d6475e28617fc0a

Offline Oskar

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They've delivered and deserve huge credit.

They had a plan and vision from the beginning, made some mistakes along the way, but FSG promised us that they wanted to win and they've been as good as their word. They've renovated Anfield and will continue to do so, they've listened to Klopp and addressed the training ground, they've put the right people in place at every level of the club and let them do their jobs - we've got the best manager in world, the best team in the world, our analytics and recruitment departments are world class and we're winning trophies.

I'll be forever grateful to them, to go from where we were when they bought the club to where we are now is incredible.

Offline rebel23

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It was the finest assist in Liverpool Football Club history.

After six months of bitter boardroom struggle, Sir Martin Broughton became the quiet hero who sold the Reds to Fenway Sports Group and ended the miserable Tom Hicks and George Gillett reign.

I remember thinking at the time if we could win the High Court case against H&G. I wonder what (if any) the public pressure and campaign weighed on the judge ? I can't remember much about the legal case  but I remember thinking if the case was in the US we would probably lose it to the vultures...
 

Offline Samie

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Offline afc tukrish

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/sports/soccer/liverpool-premier-league-title.html

Pertinent to this thread, I think, and a balanced look at how the approach is unique and not really either Moneyball or big-spending, but instead "Merseyball..."
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

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Behind a paywall but we're close to overtaking the mancs.  :o

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liverpool-close-to-overtaking-manchester-united-in-the-money-league-wwrqzvn69

Any chance of a jist mate? Be interested to see that

Offline Willy Poolman

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/sports/soccer/liverpool-premier-league-title.html

Pertinent to this thread, I think, and a balanced look at how the approach is unique and not really either Moneyball or big-spending, but instead "Merseyball..."

Thanks for posting this link, it makes for interesting reading. Many of the points are well made, and I for one am eternally grateful that FSG took the plunge on LFC. It could have turned out badly, particularly from the early evidence, but I was confident they would fine-tune their approach and eventually make progress. They certainly fine-tuned! The progress the club has made is almost unbelievable and I know we all want it to continue. Even if it does not produce silverware every year, I will still be happy because the foundations have been radically rebuilt. I'm confident we are in safe hands right now.

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I remember thinking at the time if we could win the High Court case against H&G. I wonder what (if any) the public pressure and campaign weighed on the judge ? I can't remember much about the legal case  but I remember thinking if the case was in the US we would probably lose it to the vultures...

Do you remember when one of them took it to a judge in Texas? He released their claim complete with his queries about the evidential value  against every single article. I don't think he was impressed.

A bit like. John Grisham novel we'd lose on appeal......

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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It's interesting to think back to the beginning of FSGs reign and the criticism they faced with the moneyball approach. That Edwards was just a nerd with a laptop and didn't know anything about football. The misunderstanding of the concept of value and assuming it just meant budget. That football is too complicated or too 'human' to be quantifiable and have the scientific method applied to certain parts of it. All looks very silly now.


Footy fans talking absolute shite. Who´d have through it?!!

Offline Welshred

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Do you remember when one of them took it to a judge in Texas? He released their claim complete with his queries about the evidential value  against every single article. I don't think he was impressed.

A bit like. John Grisham novel we'd lose on appeal......

They actually got the injunction to block the sale in Texas, it was the High Court judge in London who dismissed it as not having any validity in England.

Offline ToneLa

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Offline rebel23

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Check out this twitter thread on the club's finances:

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1278572329161932800

FAO Craig

can't read it all right now ..   back later.

Offline CraigDS

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Check out this twitter thread on the club's finances:

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1278572329161932800

FAO Craig

can't read it all right now ..   back later.

Why you FAOing me?

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Why you FAOing me?
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Check out this twitter thread on the club's finances:

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1278572329161932800

FAO Craig

can't read it all right now ..   back later.
It's more about charting the improvement since 2015 rather than a forward looking piece.
While it does refer to Covid a couple of times, it's not about the effect of Covid on our, or other clubs' finances.

Online cdav

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Check out this twitter thread on the club's finances:

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1278572329161932800

FAO Craig

can't read it all right now ..   back later.

Overall really positive but think the most relevant one for now is our low cash balance compared to our rivals. It will have improved since this reporting period but with the current situation where we will be going through cash quickly

Offline Alan_X

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I agree bizarre thing to say today but he did post it in July 2019 whilst we were basking in the glory of the CL win.

Moaners will be moaners

It's still relevant. There have been many who since day one, have categorically stated with absolute certainty that they know what FSG's motivation is, what they will definitely do, how they most certainly won't put money in, have no ambition, will never expand capacity, don't get the club, aren't interested in winning trophies, are definitely about to sell up, and so on and so on...

There's a thread from 2015 that I was tempted to resurrect.
Selected from the OP:

Quote
...Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top...

...The tipping point has been passed. First Liverpool ended up with the only penniless “billionaires” in America, now it seems we have the only Small Time Charlies from a land of Big Time Charlies. The new crowd accepts our place in the order of things, happily filming Ronaldo’s gloating goal celebrations and celebrating the avoidance of humiliation in Madrid like some sort of triumph in adversity. A tame and timid Anfield crowd, about as imbued with the Liverpool-Manchester rivalry as people who’ve rarely (if ever) set foot in either city can be, flat as a pancake for the traditionally the most partisan of all English football fixtures.

Quarter of a century without a league title, players leaving year on year for bigger and better things, how long before Rodgers becomes the first Liverpool manager to leave for bigger and better? Gone is the defiance. Gone is the arrogance. Gone is the vision of building Liverpool up and up until we conquer the bloody world.

Welcome to the sweetspot brothers and sisters in the #LFCfamily.

That was written in 2015 and you could say that FSG changed after 2015 and struck lucky when they signed Jurgen. But that ignores fact that FSG haven't changed since they took over the club. It's taken time to get everything in place but the strategy was their from the outset.

They said from the start that they would under promise and over deliver.

They said that they would develop the financial side to invest in the playing side.

They said they'd look at the new ground proposals and examine all options. They decided to stay and develpop which kept us at a stadium which is the envy of most other clubs.

They built the Main Stand first because that's the way to maximise income for the team.

They said they would review the Anfield Road development once the Main Stand was developed.

They've now reviewed again and will increase beyond the 60,000 seats originally planned.

They look at analytics and data to inform their transfer strategy and also the selection of the right manager. One of the reasons Brendan had to go and why Jurgen was the right fit was the importance of the 'transfer committee'.

And in direct contradiction of the piece above, they have "built Liverpool up and up until we conquer the bloody world..."

It would have been nice to see some of the "FSG are just a Yank hedge fund and we'll never win anything" lads show some appreciation but I won't hold my breath. They'll be waiting for some mis-step by the club to be able to mount their high horses again and say: "see - that's who they really are..."

« Last Edit: July 2, 2020, 11:45:39 am by Alan_X »
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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All this FSG debate has only solidified in my mind that outright fan ownership would be a disaster for a club like ours.

The fans who've been determined to look for anything to knock them with irrespective of the evidence are almost proof of that.

Our interests and theirs are aligned in that the more successful we are, the better their investment performs.

That said, for me the danger comes if and when they decide to sell, as our increased revenues leave us more open to a leveraged takeover. It's why the Glazers are still at Utd and H&G were run out of Liverpool.

Offline Samie

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #383 on: October 10, 2020, 02:15:38 pm »

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #384 on: October 10, 2020, 02:18:59 pm »
It feels like America's response to the Middle East money in the PL.

On second thought, taking the new "organisation" public would make us similar to the Glazer ownership of United.

Although the ownership of multiple sports teams does seem like a middle east business model although not in entirety.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 02:32:29 pm by ChaChaMooMoo »

Offline Samie

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #385 on: October 10, 2020, 02:30:09 pm »
I'm going to need Al and Craig in here to explain to the masses in Rawkenise.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #386 on: October 10, 2020, 02:37:00 pm »
https://www.sportico.com/business/finance/2020/fenway-sports-public-redball-1234614674/

Interesting lines from the above link.

Quote
Boston Red Sox owner John Henry is in talks with a newly formed investment vehicle that would take the parent company of the Boston Red Sox and Liverpool Football Club public, according to a person with knowledge of the matter.

The talks between Henry’s Fenway Sports Group and RedBall Acquisition Corp., a special purpose acquisition company started by Gerry Cardinale, may lead to a deal that values the iconic teams at about $8 billion, said the person, who was granted anonymity because the matter is private.
...
...

RedBall started trading in August, giving it $575 million dollars and two years to complete an acquisition in the sports business. It plans to raise another $1 billion to pursue a stake in Fenway Sports Group, the person said.
...
...
SPACs, which have flocked to market this year, hold an IPO and then find a business that wants to go public without the time and expense of holding its own IPO. Some of the year’s hottest new issues, including DraftKings, space travel outfit Virgin Galactic and clean-tech vehicle company Nikola have come public by blank check. The amount of capital a SPAC can spend can be magnified, since a company needs only to sell a portion of itself to a blank check acquirer to gain a public listing. That means in theory RedBall could acquire a team at a much higher valuation than $575 million.
...
...
The deal, if completed, could open the door to more publicly owned professional sports teams, a rarity in the major U.S. sports leagues. Liberty Media Corp. owns the Atlanta Braves, and the NFL’s Green Bay Packers are owned by a shareholder group consisting mostly of fans.

RedBird’s recent acquisitions include the XFL, whose ownership group also includes Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson and his business manager, Dany Garcia. The private equity firm also bought a second division French soccer team.

Offline Samie

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #387 on: October 10, 2020, 02:43:31 pm »
I think it could work or we're likely to go with the way the Glazer's deal with the mancs. Will be more about commercial deals and exposure and less with on the field results.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #388 on: October 10, 2020, 03:14:24 pm »
I think it could work or we're likely to go with the way the Glazer's deal with the mancs. Will be more about commercial deals and exposure and less with on the field results.


I think that Henry knows that we wouldn't put up with that & he certainly knows that there's only 1 winner when we all mobilise.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Samie

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #389 on: October 10, 2020, 03:19:17 pm »
The Galzers know that their fans aren't happy mate but it's what enables them to spend millions upon millions on constant shite with this set up.  :D Thankfully we got Klopp and Michael Edwards.


Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #390 on: October 10, 2020, 03:45:32 pm »
The Galzers know that their fans aren't happy mate but it's what enables them to spend millions upon millions on constant shite with this set up.  :D Thankfully we got Klopp and Michael Edwards.

We have proven that we're a different animal altogether though.I'll only really start to worry if/when it happens.
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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #391 on: October 10, 2020, 04:37:39 pm »
This will leave us open to a situation where a Glazer or a Kroenke buys out the majority of shares. This is a be careful what you wish for moment to be honest.
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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #392 on: October 10, 2020, 04:46:25 pm »
I think it is a hugely speculative piece that doesn't really make much sense. So I am out.
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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #393 on: October 10, 2020, 05:00:20 pm »
I don't know the reliability of this site but it seems to be sourcing the WSJ article

Liverpool owner John Henry is reportedly taking a huge step in the business world which could worry some supporters of the Anfield club.

The American billionaire took control of the Merseysiders back in 2010 after taking over from the disastrous reign of Tom Hicks and George Gillett, with the Reds perilously close to going into administration at the time.

Henry’s investment into the club over the years has helped transform Liverpool into an elite footballing outfit under the command of manager Jurgen Klopp, ending their 30-year wait for a league title in the process.

However, the 71-year-old’s ambitious mindset has come to light once more as his next move could have huge implications for the businesses that he already owns, including Major League Baseball outfit Boston Red Sox.

According to the Wall Street Journal, Henry is looking to take the Fenway Sports Group (FSG) to the stock market. To assist with this venture, he has been in talks to link up with RedBall Acquisition, who would value FSG at around $8bn (£6.35bn) including debt.

The report adds that RedBall, which raised $575m (£485.97m) in August to buy businesses in sports and sports-related media and data analytics, plans to raise an additional $1bn (£845.17m) to purchase a stake of less than 25% in Fenway Sports Group.

That might not mean an awful lot to English football fans but there is one name which may ring a bell. Former Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore linked up with RedBall in August as the company seeks to buy a team in England’s top flight, as per SportsPro.

https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/liverpool-fc-news/liverpool-john-henry-redball/
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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #394 on: October 10, 2020, 06:48:24 pm »
Personally I think it is just nonsense based on the moneyball links. Why would you go to the markets when both baseball and Football are struggling because of the pandemic. It just doesn't make sense, especially when you consider how secretive FSG are.
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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #395 on: October 10, 2020, 07:05:54 pm »
Personally I think it is just nonsense based on the moneyball links. Why would you go to the markets when both baseball and Football are struggling because of the pandemic. It just doesn't make sense, especially when you consider how secretive FSG are.
That’s what American Companies do. They really have a big obsession to go Public. Even If FSG are planning on doing so, it’s gonna take a while (maybe 1 or 2 years) cause they need to comply to a lot of standards in order to go public.

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #396 on: October 10, 2020, 07:29:27 pm »
That’s what American Companies do. They really have a big obsession to go Public. Even If FSG are planning on doing so, it’s gonna take a while (maybe 1 or 2 years) cause they need to comply to a lot of standards in order to go public.

Why would rich men who largely made their money from hedge funds create a private company that guards its privacy and then go public. Given the precarious situation their franchises and clubs are in regarding Coronavirus surely it would make more sense just to bring in a partner.
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Offline FLRed67

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #397 on: October 11, 2020, 08:15:08 am »
What’s that? Henry and Werner are talking to buyers?? And they think no-one can stop them selling out and walking away, do they? We'll see about that!

FSG Out! FSG Out! FSG Out! FSG Out!!

Offline diehard

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John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #398 on: October 11, 2020, 08:50:22 am »
Why would rich men who largely made their money from hedge funds create a private company that guards its privacy and then go public. Given the precarious situation their franchises and clubs are in regarding Coronavirus surely it would make more sense just to bring in a partner.
Depends on so many factors really. Does he think going public is the next big step for the company? You’ll never know.

Make no mistake, if a partner is brought in, it is for the sole reason to help them go public. Not to carry them during this Pandemic. I am speaking with my experience with an American MNC that I work for.

Anyway, we just gotta wait for any concrete news to prop up. It can be pretty well be rumours.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 09:01:23 am by diehard »

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Re: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach
« Reply #399 on: October 11, 2020, 01:04:06 pm »
Why would rich men who largely made their money from hedge funds create a private company that guards its privacy and then go public. Given the precarious situation their franchises and clubs are in regarding Coronavirus surely it would make more sense just to bring in a partner.

There's generally one answer to this question.  $$$$$$$$$$$