Author Topic: Money Money Money, Mostly  (Read 24940 times)

Offline Leighc1979

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2009, 10:18:16 pm »
.....


really................... my fuckin interest i and yours are you a fan?...

Yeah, of course. I'm just questioning that in the middle of a very important season should the manager be sounding off about contracts?

Offline Leighc1979

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2009, 10:21:35 pm »
Posturing?  What makes you say that?

By the way, when a manager enters the last two years of his contract in English football, particularly at such a high profile club, the Press will be on it every week if his contract is not extended.

And as a Liverpool fan, I'd imagine you would be extremely concerned about the uncertainty surrounding the manager's future.

Of course I'm concerned, but that doesn't mean to say all the public spats are right. There's a time and a place to be a politician, slap bang in the middle of a title race isn't doing us any favours. I want Rafa to stay, but this will he won't he stuff that is obviously being leaked out isn't doing us any favours.

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2009, 10:22:00 pm »
Rafa has spent more money than Ferguson since he arrived. IMO he has spent poorly, and if Parry had not blocked his selling of Alonso and signing of Barry think how much shit we would be in

I can't accept that.
£17m on Nani
£17m on Anderson
£30 million on Berbatov
A potential £30m on Tevez

Plus the £20m signings of players like Ferdinand and Rooney before Benitez arrived and the team as a whole before Benitez arrived.
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Offline Ecuared

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2009, 10:22:58 pm »
Money helps, but it isn't the be all and end all. I do think Rafa's had enough to challenge in the last year at least. For whatever reason though, £20m was spent on Keane (and was about to be spent on Barry), instead of directly solving the problem of the wider areas. £8m for Dossena goes down as a mistake as well- look at the fullbacks that have been bought by our rivals for that much.

At the start of Rafa's reign yes- we needed more money per player. But now, we're able to spend a good chunk of money on one position. Torres and Keane over the last couple of seasons shows that- it was at this point where we've had a squad we could challenge with as well.

Good shout that. Last summer was Rafa's worst and although none of us know who exactly is to blame for the whole Keane/Barry/Alonso fuck up, but it was indeed a fuck up. Imagine if even Keane could've done the job expected I really think we would be level or within a point or two of United right now.

I guess the thing is if we didn't have to sell to buy we could really keep upgrading the team. We could have kept Crouch and added Keane, so  even if Keane doesn't work out we still have Crouchie ready to to a job. As it is we need to keep replacing guys and hoping the replacement works well. Last year we replaced Bellamy with Torres, Gonzalez with Babel, and Garcia with Yossi, and they all more or less worked out. This year we replaced Crouch with Keane, and Riise with Dossena, and it just hasn't worked out.

Imagine if United had lost Scholes to bring in Hargreaves/Anderson and it doesn't work out, well now they have a big problem. Or if they had to get rid of Tevez to bring in Berbatov. The fact that they can stack talent on top of talent makes them very strong, and it means we have to get all our new buys right to try and keep up.
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Offline mooks

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2009, 10:23:10 pm »
Er, Ferguson reports to David Gill, Jose reported to Peter Keynon, Wenger to Ivan Gazidis. All they do is tell them the player they want and they go out and get them. What is not supposed to happen is what Parry is said to have done with Barry.
The CEO's at those clubs "go out and get the player" because the manager is in charge at those clubs.

That is the difference between a 'manager' and a 'coach'

If you're familiar with the North American context, the managers in the most successful Premiership teams have the role of both 'coach' and 'general manager'. 

Of course Liverpool needs a CEO - that is not even a question.  The point is that our CEO should be operating the way David Gill does - taking directions from the manager when it comes to player transfers and contracts.

Offline mooks

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2009, 10:25:28 pm »
Of course I'm concerned, but that doesn't mean to say all the public spats are right. There's a time and a place to be a politician, slap bang in the middle of a title race isn't doing us any favours. I want Rafa to stay, but this will he won't he stuff that is obviously being leaked out isn't doing us any favours.
I would say slap bang in the middle of a title race is the perfect time to be a politician and use the Press to get what the club needs

Offline BrotherTaff

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2009, 10:25:36 pm »
Yeah, I got thinking about how poor our squad is while watching the match today.  It reminded me of Rafa's first season in charge when we won the Champions League with some REALLY average players.  Our squad definately needs an improvement if we want to win the league.  I wish we'd buy local instead of going abroad all the time.  Rafa needs to take a look at O'Neil and learn a thing or two about buying players.  I know I'm talking about Heskey, but spending three million to possibly win the league for the first time in 19 years has got to be worth the risk.  Heskey's already done pretty well at Villa and you have to admit that he'd have done atleast as well for us.  I'm pretty sure we'd be 3 points better iff right now if we'd have signed him.

Offline cuppatea

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2009, 10:27:00 pm »
Today, we put on Aurelio, Babel and El Zhar in an attempt to change things. Yesterday, against Blackburn, Man U put on Vidic, Tevez and Giggs.

And the other week we played Wigan with Keane (£20m), Alonso (£10.5m), Kuyt (£10m), Riera (£8m), Dossena (£7m), Agger (£5.8m) and Cavalieri (£3.5m) on the bench, while a few days later Man Utd's bench against Everton consisted of Wellbeck (£0m), Eckersley (£0m), Brown (£0m), Giggs (£0m), Gibson (£0m), Kuszczak (£2.5m) and Fabio (fuck knows, but presumably nowhere near enough to make up the 60 odd million pound difference between our bench and theirs).

Man Utd, even though their squad is better than ours, currently have just about everyone to choose from, while we were missing a number of key players today and, of course, have yet to replace the disasterous £20m striker we recently bought and sold).

At the end of the day we spent £40m in the summer without significantly improving the team or the squad. The previous summer we spent almost £50m, with only Torres looking like making the grade here longterm and we spent £30m the summer before that on mostly average squad players, few of whom are still here. We may not be able to compete with early Abramovich era Chelsea spending but there has still been plenty of money to strengthen and, at least as far as the attacking positions go, I question how wisely this has been used.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2009, 10:27:55 pm »
Yeah but Tim, if it was simply about money, we'd have lost to Chelsea and Man U this season and beaten Stoke, Wigan, etc.

Doesn't make sense.

Don't know what you mean Barney, you'll have to elaborate.

Offline redmonkey

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2009, 10:28:14 pm »
Good shout that. Last summer was Rafa's worst and although none of us know who exactly is to blame for the whole Keane/Barry/Alonso fuck up, but it was indeed a fuck up. Imagine if even Keane could've done the job expected I really think we would be level or within a point or two of United right now.

I guess the thing is if we didn't have to sell to buy we could really keep upgrading the team. We could have kept Crouch and added Keane, so  even if Keane doesn't work out we still have Crouchie ready to to a job. As it is we need to keep replacing guys and hoping the replacement works well. Last year we replaced Bellamy with Torres, Gonzalez with Babel, and Garcia with Yossi, and they all more or less worked out. This year we replaced Crouch with Keane, and Riise with Dossena, and it just hasn't worked out.

Imagine if United had lost Scholes to bring in Hargreaves/Anderson and it doesn't work out, well now they have a big problem. Or if they had to get rid of Tevez to bring in Berbatov. The fact that they can stack talent on top of talent makes them very strong, and it means we have to get all our new buys right to try and keep up.

Good post.

We don't have the resources of Man Utd which means we can't afford debacles like the Keane saga.




Offline t0m

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2009, 10:32:10 pm »
The thing is tho i feel and i think most off you do that are beloved club is to put it in simple terms fucked up. the yanks are massive'ly in debt,this global credit crunch wont help us. Money is everything winning the Champions League will help defo. but regardless to this rafa buys have not been great. who to blame parry the board rafa fuck knows but we have been in this sinking yanky ship for over 2 years now its the owners who are messing this club up. yes they have given us money but they cant work together they still not put a spade in the ground for are new stadium which is well over due. also which were losing about 1mill each home game we play which is about 30mill including cup/friendlies ect a season which could be put back into the club/team/ect.
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Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2009, 10:32:29 pm »

Don't know what you mean Barney, you'll have to elaborate.

Well if it's simply about money then the richest team wins every time, and we all pack in and go watch Rugby League or something?
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Offline kopite 1

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2009, 10:33:24 pm »
rafa always stated he wanted two players for every position sadly united have this and we have to bring in players like ngog(not ready yet) and lucas (has potential but not world class)
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Offline mooks

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2009, 10:34:21 pm »
Well if it's simply about money then the richest team wins every time, and we all pack in and go watch Rugby League or something?

Mantra time

It is MOSTLY about money
It is MOSTLY about money
It is MOSTLY about money

Offline t0m

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2009, 10:35:11 pm »
And the other week we played Wigan with Keane (£20m), Alonso (£10.5m), Kuyt (£10m), Riera (£8m), Dossena (£7m), Agger (£5.8m) and Cavalieri (£3.5m) on the bench, while a few days later Man Utd's bench against Everton consisted of Wellbeck (£0m), Eckersley (£0m), Brown (£0m), Giggs (£0m), Gibson (£0m), Kuszczak (£2.5m) and Fabio (fuck knows, but presumably nowhere near enough to make up the 60 odd million pound difference between our bench and theirs).
Man Utd, even though their squad is better than ours, currently have just about everyone to choose from, while we were missing a number of key players today and, of course, have yet to replace the disasterous £20m striker we recently bought and sold).

At the end of the day we spent £40m in the summer without significantly improving the team or the squad. The previous summer we spent almost £50m, with only Torres looking like making the grade here longterm and we spent £30m the summer before that on mostly average squad players, few of whom are still here. We may not be able to compete with early Abramovich era Chelsea spending but there has still been plenty of money to strengthen and, at least as far as the attacking positions go, I question how wisely this has been used.
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Offline mooks

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2009, 10:36:23 pm »
We may not be able to compete with early Abramovich era Chelsea spending but there has still been plenty of money to strengthen and, at least as far as the attacking positions go, I question how wisely this has been used.
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Offline lawrie

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2009, 10:40:43 pm »
Rafa has spent more money than Ferguson since he arrived. IMO he has spent poorly, and if Parry had not blocked his selling of Alonso and signing of Barry think how much shit we would be in

You see i'm getting fed up of this argument so apologies for posting the following yet again (it did take me at least half an hour to research)

Unites'd first team squad of 28 players cost £224m to assemble in total (amendment due to new information)

Liverpool's first team squad of 28 players cost £132m

(these figures do not include players who have come up through the ranks)

That's a difference in favour of United of £92m or approx. £10m more than Rafa's net spend on transfers in his entire five year tenure

Offline cuppatea

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2009, 10:42:19 pm »
you missed mash and skittles

They were both January signings, a bit selective not to include them, I know, but I just feel as though with the fairly sizeable summer transfer budgets we've had, not enough has been done to strengthen our attacking options.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2009, 10:45:43 pm »
Mantra time

It is MOSTLY about money
It is MOSTLY about money
It is MOSTLY about money

Changed the thread title Barney  ;)
Been quite a decent debate though eh?

Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2009, 10:46:49 pm »

Is that Abba you've got on in the background?? :P

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Offline Leighc1979

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2009, 10:48:09 pm »
I would say slap bang in the middle of a title race is the perfect time to be a politician and use the Press to get what the club needs

How does that work then? Because I can't see any advantage at the minute. I would agree with you if Rafa was eight points clear at the top of the league.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2009, 10:49:47 pm »
Is that Abba you've got on in the background?? :P

Though we never thought that we could lose there's no regret. If I had to do the same again Barney, I would, my friend.

Offline -Daws-

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2009, 10:51:20 pm »
Lets have a little comparison shall we? This is just a rough estimate, could be slightly out with each price tag. Just looking at what would be considered each sides "best 11" for the next couple of years.

GK Van Der Saar - £3m?

RB Rafael (?)
CB Ferdinand - £30m
CB Vidic - £8m
LB Evra - £8m

RM Ronaldo - £12m
CM Carrick - £18m
CM Anderson - £17m
LM Nani - £17m

CF Rooney - £22m
CF Berbatov - £32m

Total - £164m
......

GK Reina - £8m

RB Arbeloa - £2.5m
CB Carragher - free
CB Skrtel - £5m
LB Dossena - £7.5m

RM Kuyt - £10m
CM Alonso - £10.5m
CM Mascherano - £18m
LM Riera - £9m

AM Gerrard - Free

ST Torres - £24m

Total - £94.5m

Even if that isn't exactly right and doesn't take a few squad players into account, a difference of £70m and 7 points aint bad.

It's hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them.

Offline Luis JFT96

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2009, 10:57:09 pm »
I have to ask it... anyone can explain me that "charlie uniform november tango" thing?

I think that they don't want to say a word who was very popular for years at RAWK.

Take the first letter of each word and find the "ugly word" :wave

Why are we speaking in english? :lickin
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2009, 11:04:28 pm »
I think that they don't want to say a word who was very popular for years at RAWK.

Take the first letter of each word and find the "ugly word" :wave

Why are we speaking in english? :lickin

TNUC?

Offline tbeavan

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2009, 11:05:01 pm »
Good shout that. Last summer was Rafa's worst and although none of us know who exactly is to blame for the whole Keane/Barry/Alonso fuck up, but it was indeed a fuck up. Imagine if even Keane could've done the job expected I really think we would be level or within a point or two of United right now.

I guess the thing is if we didn't have to sell to buy we could really keep upgrading the team. We could have kept Crouch and added Keane, so  even if Keane doesn't work out we still have Crouchie ready to to a job. As it is we need to keep replacing guys and hoping the replacement works well. Last year we replaced Bellamy with Torres, Gonzalez with Babel, and Garcia with Yossi, and they all more or less worked out. This year we replaced Crouch with Keane, and Riise with Dossena, and it just hasn't worked out.

Imagine if United had lost Scholes to bring in Hargreaves/Anderson and it doesn't work out, well now they have a big problem. Or if they had to get rid of Tevez to bring in Berbatov. The fact that they can stack talent on top of talent makes them very strong, and it means we have to get all our new buys right to try and keep up.
 


I think this is a top notch post. It balances out the argument of money vs no money and simply states that we haven't improved that much on last year. The other clubs have, for their own reasons, done less well this year apart from United. This means that we're above them but still way behind United. Rafa has always said that he has had to cash in on players to buy more. I think i remember reading a Paul Tomkins' column about how Rafa had to buy plyers like Sissoko, Bellamy, Crouch etc  to trade them up to the higher players we're meant to be getting now. What Ecuared correctly states is that we didn't trade up this season. Look at Doss and Aurelio today - Aurelio comes on and sets up our first goal. I remember Riise used to be a good out ball for Reina from kicks and he used to set things up so Rafa could select Aurelio or Riise and be confident in them. Now we have Doss, I don't think the 2 first choice left fullbacks are as good as the 2 we had last year (Thank god Insua's on the up (but this is a different tread almost now.)) The bottom line, I think I'm trying to say is that the players we have changed have not necessarily improved the team a whole amount, whereas before, they did.

So, some facts ;) ....
- We do lack a little in depth.
- On our day, we can beat anyone.
- We have had to sell and 'trade up' players where United haven't.
- Let's not forget, Fergie's been doing this a long time and 5 years ago was much further along the road of development regarding his squad.
- We miss some other WORLD class, not just average class 1990s Liverpool players, but proper stars such as Steviem nando, Mash, Xabi etc etc.
- The missing 'wide men' factor.
- Other clubs, even now, can go out and spend £15+ mill on a full back, but we have to buy one for £7 so we still can't compete financially on any level.
- Other clubs' revenue is much bigger than ours. Their sponsors, gate receipts, corporate deals are bigger, which only increases the gulf.
- Our *lovely* owners, who aren't personally bothered if we do well or not, won't put their own hands in their pockets as they don't have the money to put in, as the club is so far in debt!

What we do need to also consider is that this is Liverpool Football Club and as Mr Rubble says, only talent and ability get you so far. The rest is passion, committment, tactics and luck.

There's my take on it all. The solution though... I dunno. Just pray that the luck machine kicks in again for us like it did in September, October, November and December...
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Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2009, 11:06:20 pm »

TNUC?

It gets blocked by the web filter of someone very important's workplace and would interrupt browsing, hence the variation.

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Offline tbeavan

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2009, 11:08:28 pm »
It gets blocked by the web filter of someone very important's workplace and would interrupt browsing, hence the variation.
 

Would that be your own then, Barney?
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2009, 11:09:09 pm »
We missed Gerrard and Alonso desperately today. Slag Lucas off all you want - but who else did we have available to play in that position today? Plessis or Aurelio?

But then you comeup a perverse Hobson's choice - if you buy quality, and make them wait until Gerrard is injured and Alonso is suspended, how do you convince that player to stay? Look at our CBs - Dagger is dying for a game, and there are 4 players vying for 2 spots. I like Aurelio - I think he'd not be out of place in a title-winning side - but when he goes down is when someone like Insua is perfect. If you had Evra playing there, you've got 2 world class players for one position. So there has to be a natural sliding scale in skill from the starters to the bench.

Simple fact is that we don’t have the strength in depth that Man U have.

Today, we put on Aurelio, Babel and El Zhar in an attempt to change things. Yesterday, against Blackburn, Man U put on Vidic, Tevez and Giggs.

Vidic is a starter, and was benched with the CL in mind. His replacement was hardly stuff of legend, and got caught out of position when defensive communication broke down and resulted in Santa Cruz scoring. I'm pretty sure we have much better depth at that position. Dagger can't get a game!

Tevez is a prime example of my original point. He is on loan, and doesn't want to sit. He thinks he's good enough to start, and unless Ferguson pays 30 million for him to pick splinters out his arse, he's off.

Giggs is a bench player because he's older, and can no longer put in a 90 minute shift 65 times a year. While he's certainly quality coming off the bench, he's at United still because he's a loyal servant. We have Hyypia who plays that exact role of aging but cagey veteran who can do a job when asked.

But, put aside who they were playing, their result and who we played today and our crushing result – it’s irrelevant in that sense. The only thing relevant is the overall picture and the difference in squad depth.

Had we been able to bring on the likes of Rooney, Tevez, Giggs or Ronaldo then we’d have won today, wouldn’t we? Sadly, our best players of the season, of any season, Gerrard and Alonso – significant game changing players – were not available to us. We couldn’t afford Gareth Barry and so Lucas is our only alternative in midfield.

But Timbo - with all due respect - you're comparing apples and oranges. You're looking at wingers and attacking players and comparing United's depth in that area to our depth in the middle of the park. The example here is Gerrard and Alonso being out, and us dropping to Lucas. That's the beating heart of our attack, our free-role musketeer, and the shining beacon of our midfield, He Who Sprays Hollywood Passes Around. The relevant example for United would be this - in yesterday's game, Ronaldo and Scholes could play no part, and therefore, Anderson would have to start next to Carrick.

Now I ask you - is there that much of a drop-off between Carrick/Anderson and Mascherano/Lucas? And would Gareth Barry have come to sit on the bench until needed? Would it make better sense to buy the young Brazilian player of the year for a few million, or Barry for 20 million, to fill a bit role?

Not to mention that all of United's key players were fit, and could be called upon from the bench, while our key guys were injured or suspended.

So, open to you – is it all about money? Deep down, once you consider the whole picture – it surely is, no?

Certainly money plays a role. But it's hard to buy quality and stick them on the bench. The traditional way of doing it is to buy quality for your starting XI and fill in the bench with younger (or older) players that don't cost so much.

The squad deoth is thinner this year than in years past, and unfortunately concentrated in a few positions, but the quality of the squad is better as a whole, and I feel that the system is more versatile. Pennant can play in one position. Kuyt can play three. Le Tallec could play no position, while Yossi can play in two. Aurelio is versatile, so is Gerrard, Agger, and even Carra can slide across the back line.

Personally, I think dreaming of an ideal world-beating striker isn't as important as getting some better bit players for cheaper - rather than going for example say David Silva, if we could nick say for example Thierry Henry and have him play a McCallister role, you'd come out ahead in the chequebook, and avoid problems like we're having with Agger at the moment.

Offline Luis JFT96

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Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2009, 11:10:48 pm »
"Please forgive my Spanish" Rafa Benitez to Atlético journalists
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Offline b_joseph

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2009, 11:11:00 pm »
Its not all about money.
There is still a chance to be great if you scout well and find quality players before they become expensive high priced stars.

Our inability to act quickly and take advantage of quality players who were not quite at their max potential has killed us too often.
Dani Alves, Simao and CRonaldo fall into that category.

We just have to make sure that we are the BEST at recruiting young talent and are the BEST at finding the bargains that develop into world stars.

Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2009, 11:14:08 pm »

Would that be your own then, Barney?

No. I said somebody important...
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Offline tbeavan

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2009, 11:22:00 pm »
Its not all about money.
There is still a chance to be great if you scout well and find quality players before they become expensive high priced stars.

Our inability to act quickly and take advantage of quality players who were not quite at their max potential has killed us too often.
Dani Alves, Simao and CRonaldo fall into that category.

We just have to make sure that we are the BEST at recruiting young talent and are the BEST at finding the bargains that develop into world stars.
 


Good point, but some of the "world class stars" (that demand this, that and something else) that are around in football today wouldn't fit the Liverpool ethos. Again, another thread a while back about being a 'liverpool player' but I do think that one thing the club has done well recently is only bring in players with the right temperament and will to win for Liverpool. Perhaps that's why we never took on Anelka, I don't know though...
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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2009, 11:22:45 pm »
How does that work then? Because I can't see any advantage at the minute. I would agree with you if Rafa was eight points clear at the top of the league.
Getting the contract extension signed on the terms Rafa is asking for would be a massive boost for the club in the title run-in

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2009, 11:22:49 pm »
But then you comeup a perverse Hobson's choice - if you buy quality, and make them wait until Gerrard is injured and Alonso is suspended, how do you convince that player to stay? Look at our CBs - Dagger is dying for a game, and there are 4 players vying for 2 spots. I like Aurelio - I think he'd not be out of place in a title-winning side - but when he goes down is when someone like Insua is perfect. If you had Evra playing there, you've got 2 world class players for one position. So there has to be a natural sliding scale in skill from the starters to the bench.

Vidic is a starter, and was benched with the CL in mind. His replacement was hardly stuff of legend, and got caught out of position when defensive communication broke down and resulted in Santa Cruz scoring. I'm pretty sure we have much better depth at that position. Dagger can't get a game!

Tevez is a prime example of my original point. He is on loan, and doesn't want to sit. He thinks he's good enough to start, and unless Ferguson pays 30 million for him to pick splinters out his arse, he's off.

Giggs is a bench player because he's older, and can no longer put in a 90 minute shift 65 times a year. While he's certainly quality coming off the bench, he's at United still because he's a loyal servant. We have Hyypia who plays that exact role of aging but cagey veteran who can do a job when asked.

But Timbo - with all due respect - you're comparing apples and oranges. You're looking at wingers and attacking players and comparing United's depth in that area to our depth in the middle of the park. The example here is Gerrard and Alonso being out, and us dropping to Lucas. That's the beating heart of our attack, our free-role musketeer, and the shining beacon of our midfield, He Who Sprays Hollywood Passes Around. The relevant example for United would be this - in yesterday's game, Ronaldo and Scholes could play no part, and therefore, Anderson would have to start next to Carrick.

Now I ask you - is there that much of a drop-off between Carrick/Anderson and Mascherano/Lucas? And would Gareth Barry have come to sit on the bench until needed? Would it make better sense to buy the young Brazilian player of the year for a few million, or Barry for 20 million, to fill a bit role?

Not to mention that all of United's key players were fit, and could be called upon from the bench, while our key guys were injured or suspended.

Certainly money plays a role. But it's hard to buy quality and stick them on the bench. The traditional way of doing it is to buy quality for your starting XI and fill in the bench with younger (or older) players that don't cost so much.

The squad deoth is thinner this year than in years past, and unfortunately concentrated in a few positions, but the quality of the squad is better as a whole, and I feel that the system is more versatile. Pennant can play in one position. Kuyt can play three. Le Tallec could play no position, while Yossi can play in two. Aurelio is versatile, so is Gerrard, Agger, and even Carra can slide across the back line.

Personally, I think dreaming of an ideal world-beating striker isn't as important as getting some better bit players for cheaper - rather than going for example say David Silva, if we could nick say for example Thierry Henry and have him play a McCallister role, you'd come out ahead in the chequebook, and avoid problems like we're having with Agger at the moment.

With respect, because you've made some decent points there, does your bit I've highlighted in bold not simply go back to the money situation?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:24:34 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2009, 11:27:12 pm »
With respect, because you've made some decent points there, does your bit I've highlighted in bold not simply go back to the money situation?

No because my main point was that quality players do not want to sit on the bench. There is a natural dropoff in quality for that reason. Quite a few of Chelsea's acquisitions since their first year of the lottery season prove that - Wright Philips, Parker, Sidwell and others were all quality players for lesser teams who were acquired to start behind "better" players and ended up leaving because they don't get games.

Edit - whoops - sorry - the starting XI was your highlighted point - my bad.

Yes of course, you need *some* money to field a championship winning team. That's beyond question. At the same time, there are two points here - you spoke initially of the "quality of United's substitutions" and their squad depth as a whole. I was pointing out mainly that you cannot stock your squad with quality and expect worldclass players to be happy playing bit roles.

Secondly, in answer to your question about the starting XI, you don't always need as much money as your rivals to beat them. Our run to the CL proves that. The fact that we're above Chelsea and have beaten them at crucial points also speaks to that. Moyes has operated on a tighter budget than some other teams below him, and Leeds threw the bank at their squad but still ended up collapsing.

If you look back, decisions on what to do with with the money play as big a role as (if not bigger) than money itself. We spent 55 million on Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and Keane. Spurs nicked Lennon and Dawson for a million each I think, they signed Berbatov for 10m, Arteta went to Everton for peanuts, as did Cahill, and we ourselves, instead of spending 30 million on Rio Ferdinand, plopped down the best 2 million this club has spent in a long time in signing Big Sami.

If you have a good scouting system, you can make do with less money.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:38:54 pm by El Campeador »

Offline tbeavan

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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:35 pm »
I have to say, I'm enjoying this thread. A good discussion/debate with no slagging off or moans/gripes etc. Maybe I've been reading the in game / post game threads or contract ones based on myth and heresay too much...
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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2009, 11:32:49 pm »
It's going to take a little bit for Rafa to build up the squad, and money is going to play a part. 

Compare, in relative terms, how much the mancs spent on their players before Rafa got here.  They are huge transfer fees for today's standards, let alone what they were before prices inflated. 

Rafa has had to buy quite a few "squad" players to get a decent base for the team, with the mancs arguably already having this base, with the big money left to spend.  At the beginning of 2007, the mancs didn't spend less than 10mil on an individual transfer fee. 

We have a good base, we are in second place.  We, mathematically, aren't out of it by a long shot.  Rafa hasnt' been able to spend the money exactly the way he wanted to.

We're going to fill in these gaps as long as Rafa is allowed to do so.  The big players that are Rafa's first choice are still to come.



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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2009, 11:37:26 pm »
Without money we can only buy 'journeymen' like Barney said on that post just after Istanbul. For Jermaine Pennant, read Jimmy Carter or Istvan Kozma. We can't get players like Ribery, Quaresma, whoever the best wide players are (not Quaresma) without money and there are 2 other clubs holding an advantage over us there. I only dream of players like Ribery and Aguero playing for us, sadly it won't happen.
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Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2009, 11:40:00 pm »
Its not all about money.
There is still a chance to be great if you scout well and find quality players before they become expensive high priced stars.

Our inability to act quickly and take advantage of quality players who were not quite at their max potential has killed us too often.
Dani Alves, Simao and CRonaldo fall into that category.

We just have to make sure that we are the BEST at recruiting young talent and are the BEST at finding the bargains that develop into world stars.

Top post.

It's all about spending WISELY. You could have a billion to blow and still get relegated if you spent is poorly enough.

Obviously having a transfer budget of £5m each season will get you nowhere, but if you have a reasonable amont to spend (and we do, or did), then it is not such a great factor at all. The main thing is not to get into a bidding war by crossing paths with the pond's bigger fish.

The sad fact is that if Parry had wrapped up half the deals he's wrecked (Ronaldo, Alves, Vidic, Simao etc.), that could, nay WOULD, be us at the top of the table. The man is a plank. What he's doing as these deals cave in we'll never know. Perhaps shopping for ties.

The Yanks may be c*nts, but he's worse than either of them. I'm not saying he is evil, mind you, he actually comes across as pretty decent. Just a simple-minded man. A bit of an eejit. He should not be doing the job he is doing.
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