Author Topic: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism  (Read 2655 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« on: June 7, 2017, 11:53:27 pm »
Not sure if this is the right board (Feel free to move if not) - but a few years back I was having an argument with an American who was adamant that the Nazi's were socialists.

Now I accept that in their title includes  'National Socialism' but I don't think you could possibly look at them in any way but far-right. Socialism is left and you have things obviously much further left.

Now I've come across the same thing today - an American that is banging on about how evil Socialists are in the modern world and pointing at the action of Nazi Germany as a warning..

Seems nuts to me, but it's possible I'm wrong. It seems to be that they were just taking the piss or playing propoganda games with that name..?
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #1 on: June 8, 2017, 12:01:28 am »
This is pretty common nowadays among right wing internet idiots. It's from the alt-right 'liberals are the real racists' school of arguing.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #2 on: June 8, 2017, 12:06:48 am »
Not sure if this is the right board (Feel free to move if not) - but a few years back I was having an argument with an American who was adamant that the Nazi's were socialists.

Now I accept that in their title includes  'National Socialism' but I don't think you could possibly look at them in any way but far-right. Socialism is left and you have things obviously much further left.

Now I've come across the same thing today - an American that is banging on about how evil Socialists are in the modern world and pointing at the action of Nazi Germany as a warning..

Seems nuts to me, but it's possible I'm wrong. It seems to be that they were just taking the piss or playing propoganda games with that name..?
Your obviously right, crazy how people like to re write history.
I would have pointed out Hitler despised communists, are they not socialists as well.

Richard Evans, in his magisterial three volume history of Nazi Germany, is quite clear on whether Hitler was a socialist: “…it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth of, socialism.” (The Coming of the Third Reich, Evans, p. 173). Not only was Hitler not a socialist himself, nor a communist, but he actually hated these ideologies and did his utmost to eradicate them. At first this involved organizing bands of thugs to attack socialists in the street, but grew into invading Russia, in part to enslave the population and earn ‘living ‘ room for Germans, and in part to wipe out communism and ‘Bolshevism’
When Hitler came to power he attempted to dismantle trade unions and the shell that remained loyal to him; he supported the actions of leading industrialists, actions far removed from socialism which tends to want the opposite. Hitler used the fear of socialism and communism as a way of terrifying middle and upper class Germans into supporting him. Workers were targeted with slightly different propaganda, but these were promises simply to earn support, to get into power, and then to remake the workers along with everyone else into a racial state.
https://www.thoughtco.com/was-adolf-hitler-a-socialist-1221367
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #3 on: June 8, 2017, 12:07:35 am »
I think many Americans also associate 'socialism' with government intervention, rather than necessarily left-wing government intervention; it's become the opposite of libertarian/individualist small government - and state intervention is seen as a problem in itself, rather than only in terms of the ideology of the interventionists. So 'national socialism' as a form of right-wing state intervention can be interpreted almost as the intervention itself being inevitably problematic.



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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #4 on: June 8, 2017, 12:59:33 am »
Tell your idiot friend that democracy is evil because look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea!!

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #5 on: June 8, 2017, 07:04:51 am »
It has nothing to do with the facts, and everything to do with name-calling.

At some point 'socialist' became a dirty word in the US, but not here.  So in the kind of moron argument you describe, the game becomes making that word stick; if you do that, you win the argument.  I first recall seeing it in a voxpop in 2008 - the BBC spoke to some voter who mentioned one of Obama's policies, said it 'sounds like socialism to me', and that was it, argument over, no discussion as to whether it was a good policy or not, can't vote for that guy.

I guess your example goes one stage further back - the nazis are evil, so if you can compare something to the nazis you win.  It's a shite way of arguing.  'The nazis' is only the most common example though, everyone does it.  'Liberal' will be next.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #6 on: June 8, 2017, 08:32:50 am »
Pure ignorance. Very shallow understanding of politics and history. Most non-college educated Americans maybe have one year of European history and one year of Civics classes. Depending on the state, it also does not take much to become a social studies teacher. So even a decent education can be a crapshoot.

Simply put, American enemies in the 20th century, were fascists (Germany/Italy) and communists (USSR, Cuba, Vietnam). Ask the average American to tell the difference between a fascist, socialist, and a communist. Most won't have a clue. As redmark mentioned, it comes down to government intervention. Hitler banned guns (not true), therefore Obama is a Nazi because he wants to take your AR-15. Anything not remotely White Christian American, conservatives tried to attach to Obama. Black Panther, Muslim, Kenyan, Communist, Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, Gay.

At least Millennials seem to have a fair understanding on socialism and the term is more acceptable today. Boomers are a lost cause.
« Last Edit: June 8, 2017, 08:35:25 am by Romeo Sensini »

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #7 on: June 8, 2017, 09:16:41 am »
It's a label they've given themselves. It's like me changing my name to BigCock McGee. You don't know whether that's actually true. Of course it's a bit more complex with the Nazis, but at the end of the day, they chose their own name. The party was called NSDAP=Nationalsozialistische Deutscher Arbeiter Partei (National Socialist German Workers' Party), but took loads of money from entrepreneurs (especially after 1933). That's probably not what a true workers' party would do. They used those labels to get support. Just like Hitler creating loads of jobs, building the Autobahn or making sure everyone had a "Volksempfänger" at home, it all served a purpose and wasn't done to help the people. It was done to prepare for war, to get people on his side or for propaganda purposes. If you look at what the NSDAP actually stood for, socialism or workers' rights play little to no part. It was all about nationalism and antisemitism...

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #8 on: June 8, 2017, 10:07:00 am »
There was a socialist wing to the Nazi party, especially the early Nazi party. The two Strasser brothers led it, before they were excommunicated or murdered by Hitler. Some SA (Brownshirt) battalions leaned to the Left and many recruited directly from the Communist party in the early 1930s. There are stories of Red Front battalions in Berlin marching to SA taverns, handing over their banners and joining the SA. Goebbels was also considered to be on the socialist wing of the Nazi party. They called themselves 'National' socialists in distinction to the 'International' socialists of the SPD and KPD. All, of course, were rabid anti-semites, but then as we've seen in our own time, it is possible to espouse socialist ideas and still hate the Jews.

But, having said all this, the Nazis are more correctly described as Right-Wing than Left-Wing. They worked quite amicably with Big Business and with organised religion. Their sister parties in Europe were their fellow Fascists. Their international sympathisers were all on the political Right, like Lord Rothermere and the Daily Mail. Their international opponents came from the political Left, like the Labour party. Hitler, who was never a socialist, was made Chancellor by the Conservative parties of late Weimar. One of his first acts, after the Reichstag Fire, was to outlaw the Social Democrats and the Communists, imprison their leaders and murder their organisers and activists. The word 'socialist' was used by Nazis pretty much for the same reasons as the word 'democracy' was used by the GDR and the other communist dictatorships of eastern Europe after 1945 - because it was popular and because it served as a respectable cover for something quite different.

PS I don't believe most Americans do see the Nazis as being a left-wing phenomenon and therefore maybe the poster will want to change that title.
« Last Edit: June 8, 2017, 10:09:52 am by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #9 on: June 8, 2017, 10:09:21 am »
and close the thread.
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Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #10 on: June 8, 2017, 10:11:07 am »
It has nothing to do with the facts, and everything to do with name-calling.

At some point 'socialist' became a dirty word in the US, but not here
Probably around the second red scare mainly and with McCarthyism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #11 on: June 9, 2017, 02:15:06 pm »
2 things going on
- certain type of libertarian use "socialist" to mean "statist" or "not a libertarian" . Now people can use words how they like, but if hitler's a socialist because: state, then so is ronald reagan, louis xiv, and probably the pharoah rameses as well
- the essence of socialism is class struggle. Of course theres a big difference between revolutionary communists and parliamentary social democrats methods for abolishing class, but the ideas the same.
Nazism however replaces class struggle with racial struggle. Aryans will be the ruling class and everyone else slaves, or dead.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #12 on: June 9, 2017, 07:12:11 pm »
Just surveyed 300 million Americans and Andy is spot on as usual, they all to a man believe that Nazism = Socialism. An overwhelming theme of the responses was, "I'd been waiting years for someone to ask me that"

Think we can wrap the thread up

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2017, 11:41:42 am »
Off topic but does wanting socialised healthcare make me a socialist by default?
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2017, 11:51:06 am »
Off topic but does wanting socialised healthcare make me a socialist by default?

Not really. You can get very right wing people that still believe in socialised healthcare. Very few people (outside the US) believe the market is the answer to everything.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2017, 03:30:14 pm »
They use political terms in odd ways... Socialism is evil, Liberal is a filthy word that almost means the opposite of what it should mean, I speak to plenty of Americans online and their understanding of politics is a bit displaced, possibly because it's very insular.

If you fancy a laugh ask one for examples of left wing policies.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2017, 04:12:49 pm »
They use political terms in odd ways... Socialism is evil, Liberal is a filthy word that almost means the opposite of what it should mean, I speak to plenty of Americans online and their understanding of politics is a bit displaced, possibly because it's very insular.

If you fancy a laugh ask one for examples of left wing policies.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 07:59:52 pm »
I've never really viewed them as one in the same.

With the Nazi's/Nazism being a fascist regime/ideology and socialism being just a largely ineffective political system.
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 10:39:54 pm »
The co-option by Americans of the term 'Liberal' as an insult will always be fucking weird to me.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 11:39:58 pm »
The co-option by Americans of the term 'Liberal' as an insult will always be fucking weird to me.

Makes more sense in Australia where the Liberal Party are the conservatives. ;)

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 11:46:50 pm »
The co-option by Americans of the term 'Liberal' as an insult will always be fucking weird to me.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 03:05:54 pm »
Wait 'til you hear about the crazy shit they call 'conservative'.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 03:12:43 pm »
Wait 'til you hear about the crazy shit they call 'conservative'.

Ronald Reagan wouldn't qualify as 'conservative' these days.
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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2017, 11:07:38 pm »
The hoarding of the American Dream

The Atlantic
Annie Lowrey
22 hrs ago



In a new book, a Brookings scholar examines how the upper-middle class has enriched itself and harmed economic mobility.



There’s a certain type of financial confessional that has had a way of going viral in the post-recession era. The University of Chicago law professor complaining his family was barely keeping their heads above water on $250,000 a year. This hypothetical family of three in San Francisco making $200,000, enjoying vacations to Maui, and living hand-to-mouth. This real New York couple making a six figures and merely “scraping by.”

In all of these viral posts, denizens of the upper-middle class were attempting to make the case for their middle classness. Taxes are expensive. Cities are expensive. Tuition is expensive. Children are expensive. Travel is expensive. Tens of thousands of dollars a month evaporate like cold champagne spilled on a hot lanai, they argue. And the 20 percent are not the one percent. 

A great, short book by Richard V. Reeves of the Brookings Institution helps to flesh out why these stories provoke such rage. In Dream Hoarders, released this week, Reeves agrees that the 20 percent are not the one percent: The higher you go up the income or wealth distribution, the bigger the gains made in the past three or four decades. Still, the top quintile of earners—those making more than roughly $112,000 a year—have been big beneficiaries of the country’s growth. To make matters worse, this group of Americans engages in a variety of practices that don’t just help their families, but harm the other 80 percent of Americans.

“I am not suggesting that the top one percent should be left alone. They need to pay more tax, perhaps much more,” Reeves writes. “But if we are serious about narrowing the gap between ‘the rich’ and everybody else, we need a broader conception of what it means to be rich.”

The book traces the way that the upper-middle class has pulled away from the middle class and the poor on five dimensions: income and wealth, educational attainment, family structure, geography, and health and longevity. The top 20 percent of earners might not have seen the kinds of income gains made by the top one percent and America’s billionaires. Still, their wage and investment increases have proven sizable. They dominate the country’s top colleges, sequester themselves in wealthy neighborhoods with excellent public schools and public services, and enjoy healthy bodies and long lives. “It would be an exaggeration to say that the upper-middle class is full of gluten-avoiding, normal-BMI joggers who are only marginally more likely to smoke a cigarette than to hit their children,” Reeves writes. “But it would be just that—an exaggeration, not a fiction.”

They then pass those advantages onto their children, with parents placing a “glass floor” under their kids. They ensure they grow up in nice zip codes, provide social connections that make a difference when entering the labor force, help with internships, aid with tuition and home-buying, and schmooze with college admissions officers. All the while, they support policies and practices that protect their economic position and prevent poorer kids from climbing the income ladder: legacy admissions, the preferential tax treatment of investment income, 529 college savings plans, exclusionary zoning, occupational licensing, and restrictions on the immigration of white-collar professionals. 


As a result, America is becoming a class-based society, more like fin-de-siècle England than most would care to admit, Reeves argues. Higher income kids stay up at the sticky top of the income distribution. Lower income kids stay down at the bottom. The one percent have well and truly trounced the 99 percent, but the 20 percent have done their part to immiserate the 80 percent, as well—an arguably more salient but less recognized class distinction.

Why more salient? In part because the 20 percent are so much bigger than the one percent. If you are going to raise a considerable amount of new income tax revenue to finance social programs, as may Democrats want to do, dinging the top one percent won’t cut it: They are a lot richer, but a lot fewer in number. And if you are going to provide more opportunities in good neighborhoods, public schools, colleges, internship programs, and labor markets to lower-income families, it is the 20 percent that are going to have to give something up.

Reeves offers a host of policy changes that might make a considerable difference: better access to contraception, increasing building in cities and suburbs, barring legacy admissions to colleges, curbing tax expenditures that benefit families with big homes and capital gains. Still, given the scale of the problem, I wondered whether other, bigger solutions might be necessary as well: a universal child allowance to reduce the poverty rate among kids, as the Century Foundation has proposed, say, or baby bonds to help eliminate the black-white wealth gap fostered by decades of racist and exclusionary government policy, as Darrick Hamilton has suggested. (So often, the upper-middle class insulating and enriching itself at the expense of the working class has meant white families doing so at the expense of black families—a point I thought underplayed in Reeves’ telling.)

Yet, as Reeves notes, “sensible policy is not always easy politics.” Expanding opportunity and improving fairness would require the upper-middle class to vote for higher taxes, to let others move in, and to share in the wealth. Prying Harvard admission letters and the mortgage interest deduction out of the hands of bureaucrats in Bethesda, sales executives in Minnetonka, and lawyers in Louisville is not going to be easy.

Members of the upper-middle class, as those viral stories show and Reeves writes, love to think of themselves as members of the middle class, not as the rich. They love to think of themselves as hard workers who played fair and won what they deserved, rather than as people who were born on third and think they hit a triple. They hate to hear that the government policies they support as sensible might be torching social mobility and entrenching an elite. That elite is them.

Annie Lowrey is a contributing editor at The Atlantic, covering economic policy.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-hoarding-of-the-american-dream/ar-BBCKMQq?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=SK216DHP
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2017, 10:39:59 am »
There was a socialist wing to the Nazi party, especially the early Nazi party. The two Strasser brothers led it, before they were excommunicated or murdered by Hitler. Some SA (Brownshirt) battalions leaned to the Left and many recruited directly from the Communist party in the early 1930s. There are stories of Red Front battalions in Berlin marching to SA taverns, handing over their banners and joining the SA. Goebbels was also considered to be on the socialist wing of the Nazi party. They called themselves 'National' socialists in distinction to the 'International' socialists of the SPD and KPD. All, of course, were rabid anti-semites, but then as we've seen in our own time,  it is possible to espouse socialist ideas and still hate the Jews.

But, having said all this, the Nazis are more correctly described as Right-Wing than Left-Wing. They worked quite amicably with Big Business and with organised religion. Their sister parties in Europe were their fellow Fascists. Their international sympathisers were all on the political Right, like Lord Rothermere and the Daily Mail. Their international opponents came from the political Left, like the Labour party. Hitler, who was never a socialist, was made Chancellor by the Conservative parties of late Weimar. One of his first acts, after the Reichstag Fire, was to outlaw the Social Democrats and the Communists, imprison their leaders and murder their organisers and activists. The word 'socialist' was used by Nazis pretty much for the same reasons as the word 'democracy' was used by the GDR and the other communist dictatorships of eastern Europe after 1945 - because it was popular and because it served as a respectable cover for something quite different.

PS I don't believe most Americans do see the Nazis as being a left-wing phenomenon and therefore maybe the poster will want to change that title.

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2017, 11:00:44 am »
Silly, that

The assertion or the Anti-Semitism?

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Re: Americans view of Nazis and Socialism
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2017, 11:20:47 am »
The assertion or the Anti-Semitism?

More the way it was said.
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