Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?

[Fromola]

I'm genuinely starting to think that there's something wrong from a physical conditioning aspect. To have so many players whose legs have completely gone at the same time is bizarre, not to mention the constant injury crisis. And it's not just the over 30s. The likes of Robbo Trent, and obviously Fabinho can't have all lost a step.
They've had more time to recover than many players on other teams and have a track record of coming back stronger after set backs. Virtually every team runs more and appear sharper to first and second balls.
Unless there's some giant collective malaise that's set in???
Obviously new athletic midfielders would shift momentum but our problems run deeper.

We fucked the pre-season up. But other clubs who played a ton of games last season have had a drop off. West Ham in a relegation battle, Man City have been miles off it even if they've stayed up there with a striker scoring goals every week.

It hasn't been right since the Asia tour. Ever since that first half at Fulham we've looked completely unprepared for the season physically.

[killer-heels]

Posted in the match thread but I’m worried about this getting worse. There are a lot of league games to play and what if we see the team getting booed off, trouble with Klopp etc. Wish we were in April or May right now.

[Fromola]

Posted in the match thread but I’m worried about this getting worse. There are a lot of league games to play and what if we see the team getting booed off, trouble with Klopp etc. Wish we were in April or May right now.

Yeah, you hope it doesn't come to that but sometimes it takes that to bring things to a head.

IN 20/21 we lost 6 home games in a row. That doesn't happen with a full crowd at Anfield because certain standards are demanded. As terrible as we've been this season nobody has turned us over at home (yet). We've just lost the one game.

Get some fighters in the team and grind out some wins until May. Not much more we can do.

[MonsLibpool]

Posted in the match thread but I’m worried about this getting worse. There are a lot of league games to play and what if we see the team getting booed off, trouble with Klopp etc. Wish we were in April or May right now.

This season can't end soon enough. Even the owners have written it off.

[deano2727]

We didn’t lose to a sport washer in the CL. We got schooled by a team who has our number right now. The idea they’ve lost the plot because we came close to winning some trophies is a nonsense. We also won 2 cups last year. We’ve won everything there is to win. Some of the players aren’t up to it anymore, Klopp failed to recognise where they were at, some new signings don’t look good enough, we haven’t refreshed the squad anywhere near enough over the past 5 years. We’ve been consistently a year too slow to sort the defence the attack and now the midfield. The attack we got away with it because Firmino mane and Salah were bulletproof in 19/20 until we’d won the league. The defence and the midfield though… not so much. That’s why we’re where we’re at, amongst other reasons, not the players losing it mentally because they almost won the league.

It's great we won two trophies, but let's be honest, it's only the FA cup and League cups - a gigantic anti-climax to what was so close to happening. We as fans are deflated by last year. Can you imagine how the players feel? The ones actually out there putting in the effort. You're mad if you don't think the mental aspect is an issue. Imagine being one of the best sides in England over the last few decades, and getting pipped by the same two fucking teams time and time again (and the way it happened too). Yes, they won a league and a CL, but if we're being honest, they deserved more.

These players are humans. It takes a special kind of person to not get deflated after experiencing such agnozing "so close, but not quite" almost every other season. Particularly when they know how good they are.

[Dave McCoy]

I don't get this. The players are going to lose a shit ton of money without their CL bonuses. They're so "woe is me" that they'll be fine with their pay checks getting smaller? There's just no way.

[Fromola]

I don't get this. The players are going to lose a shit ton of money without their CL bonuses. They're so "woe is me" that they'll be fine with their pay checks getting smaller? There's just no way.

Because they know top 4 is gone (in their minds at least) so have thrown in the towel.

[Fromola]

It's great we won two trophies, but let's be honest, it's only the FA cup and League cups - a gigantic anti-climax to what was so close to happening. We as fans are deflated by last year. Can you imagine how the players feel? The ones actually out there putting in the effort. You're mad if you don't think the mental aspect is an issue. Imagine being one of the best sides in England over the last few decades, and getting pipped by the same two fucking teams time and time again (and the way it happened too). Yes, they won a league and a CL, but if we're being honest, they deserved more.

These players are humans. It takes a special kind of person to not get deflated after experiencing such agnozing "so close, but not quite" almost every other season. Particularly when they know how good they are.

The players had a great time at the parade (as did the fans who came out in force) which was a celebration of the season we had and then go away for the summer.

Disappointing not to win more but the league was always a long shot and out of our hands. Not like we blew a 10 point lead. THe cup wins were memorable.

[Dave McCoy]

Because they know top 4 is gone (in their minds at least) so have thrown in the towel.

Mathematically it's not as much as we can laugh about how that sounds in reality. For their own career and their pay check it's something to say that a bunch of "alpha's" are going to just throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity but here we are.

[Wghennessy]

Because they know top 4 is gone (in their minds at least) so have thrown in the towel.

Bollocks, we were 14 off the top spot and took it to the last 15 minutes of the league. We win the game in hand and its down to 8 points, there's plenty of points left to make that gap up they just look absolutely spent.

[Fromola]

Mathematically it's not as much as we can laugh about how that sounds in reality. For their own career and their pay check it's something to say that a bunch of "alpha's" are going to just throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity but here we are.

The way they might see it is it was the club that threw in the towel by not strengthening a midfield Stevie Wonder can see is no longer fit for purpose.

As a fan looking in I thought (going into January) top 4 hopes hinged on us strengthening the midfield in Jan.

[deano2727]

I don't get this. The players are going to lose a shit ton of money without their CL bonuses. They're so "woe is me" that they'll be fine with their pay checks getting smaller? There's just no way.

I'd imagine they would give up those CL bonuses to have another CL and title under their belts, not to mention a historic quadruple. Obviously a hypothetical trade-off, but I say it to make the point that I think the disappointment would haunt them more than missing out on a few hundred K extra. Most of these lads will never have to worry about money again. I doubt they'll be sitting thinking about it when retired in their villas and penthouses.

[Cafe De Paris]

I have said this before. I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better. I’m talking about the next 5 games. Can you honestly say we would win any of those games at this moment. Quite scary now.

[Dave McCoy]

The way they might see it is it was the club that threw in the towel by not strengthening a midfield Stevie Wonder can see is no longer fit for purpose.

Those midfielders are still their own teammates that had been with them through thick and thin. Do they throw pelters at them all practice and that's why we are so bad? It's great to think this way as an easy out but in reality that sounds crazy.

[Fromola]

Bollocks, we were 14 off the top spot and took it to the last 15 minutes of the league. We win the game in hand and its down to 8 points, there's plenty of points left to make that gap up they just look absolutely spent.

The team is no longer competitive though is it? It needed strengthening last month.

[Dave McCoy]

The team is no longer competitive though is it? It needed strengthening last month.

We bought Gakpo which in turn meant we spent the 6th most. We didn't have to buy Gakpo, we did and I'd buy that the players can see he isn't going to change anything so this is over as to why they're downing tools than that they didn't get a midfielder at the beginning of the season.

[Redsnappa]

I don't get this. The players are going to lose a shit ton of money without their CL bonuses. They're so "woe is me" that they'll be fine with their pay checks getting smaller? There's just no way.

Seems to be running through the Club. Loss of income from Cup home games, TV money, cancelled LFCTVGO subs, Club shop sales will be down massively I'd have thought. They've all given up. Like Al says, the fish rots from the head down.

[Fromola]

Those midfielders are still their own teammates that had been with them through thick and thin. Do they throw pelters at them all practice and that's why we are so bad? It's great to think this way as an easy out but in reality that sounds crazy.

They can't account for Henderson's legs going (or his head not being right after the World Cup) or for Fabinho's performances falling off a cliff this season. These were vital cogs of the team for years.

[Dave McCoy]

Seems to be running through the Club. Loss of income from Cup home games, TV money, cancelled LFCTVGO subs, Club shop sales will be down massively I'd have thought. They've all given up. Like Al says, the fish rots from the head down.

Current examples of CL to non-CL years show it's about a £70m drop but nothing catastrophic. Again Arsenal haven't had CL in years now. I'd also bet most of the drop will be covered by the players own wages dropping. I'm skeptical that much will change if it's only a 1 year issue which is easily possible considering that the following year will have 5 CL spots for the PL.

[Dave McCoy]

They can't account for Henderson's legs going (or his head not being right after the World Cup) or for Fabinho's performances falling off a cliff this season. These were vital cogs of the team for years.

They wouldn't have known that in the summer transfer window so it's not a good example of why the others would have downed tools from the start.

[Redsnappa]

Current examples of CL to non-CL years show it's about a £70m drop but nothing catastrophic. Again Arsenal haven't had CL in years now. I'd also bet most of the drop will be covered by the players own wages dropping. I'm skeptical that much will change if it's only a 1 year issue which is easily possible considering that the following year will have 5 CL spots for the PL.

I don't know whether to be cheered up by that or not Dave 

[Dave McCoy]

I don't know whether to be cheered up by that or not Dave 

If you think FSG need to dip into their own pockets then this is probably the only scenario where they would do so.

If I were a betting man I'd wager that's unlikely but I certainly didn't see this level of bottoming out happening and could imagine whatever plans were in place for this summer already being questioned.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

The players just don’t want to play for Klopp anymore.

I wonder if Tuchel or Pochettino could:

1. Get an energetic, youthful tune out of 2023 Henderson, Fabinho and Thiago?
2. Instantly turn Carvahlo and Elliott into centre midfielders with the power to overcome the CM powerhouses of the EPL?
3. Get Gomez to not make suicidal or dopey blunders every 90 minutes?

FSG have hung Klopp and us out to dry.  Inept strategic leadership when we have £600m income, only surpassed by two Spanish clubs able to do their own TV deals.  Quite astonishing really.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

They wouldn't have known that in the summer transfer window so it's not a good example of why the others would have downed tools from the start.

Athletes in the other 19 teams are running past and through LFC veterans for fun.  The midfield is a joke.  Creating holes everywhere else, with forwards having to operate 70 yards from goal to help plug them and failing.

[Redsnappa]

If you think FSG need to dip into their own pockets then this is probably the only scenario where they would do so.

If I were a betting man I'd wager that's unlikely but I certainly didn't see this level of bottoming out happening and could imagine whatever plans were in place for this summer already being questioned.

They've apparently got enough problems with the Red Sox at the moment after a poor season - and that's on their doorstep - so I'd imagine we're completely on the back burner as far as seeing them open their wallets for us. Not that I think money is the be-all and end-all unless it was not paying the office bods behind our success enough ... 

[kasperoff]

Bollocks, we were 14 off the top spot and took it to the last 15 minutes of the league. We win the game in hand and its down to 8 points, there's plenty of points left to make that gap up they just look absolutely spent.

This is not the same side that turned over a 3 goal deficit against Barcelona. There has been absolutely nothing to suggest that this group are capable of turning into a team that will win 10 gams on the spin. I don't know what people are seeing sometimes. If it's just blind optimism and it makes you sleep better, then fair enough.

[kasperoff]

well if that's the case they can all fuck off 

Is fucking right.

[Passmaster Molby]

We are in big trouble, and anyone saying we aren’t is deluding themselves. Jurgen needs to get those sleeves rolled up and start butchering this squad as it needs significant surgery.

[Red Giant]

Meh! Nothing is going our way atm. I choose to believe it is all part of the script that will allow us to return even stronger and shut a few up. In the end, there is no light without darkness and these times will just make us cherish the highs of the future even more.
We need to keep perspective and understand that everything is NOT doom and gloom.
With Jürgen to the very end ❤️

[Black Bull Nova]

Meh! Nothing is going our way atm. I choose to believe it is all part of the script that will allow us to return even stronger and shut a few up. In the end, there is no light without darkness and these times will just make us cherish the highs of the future even more.
We need to keep perspective and understand that everything is NOT doom and gloom.
With Jürgen to the very end ❤️

Exactly


Those who attend next monday's game have the opportunity to fire those players up and not to let their heads go down if things do not go right. What better occasion to re-start the season than next weeks game. We know now that they will be up for it, let's show them we are as well.

[In the Name of Klopp]

They've apparently got enough problems with the Red Sox at the moment after a poor season - and that's on their doorstep - so I'd imagine we're completely on the back burner as far as seeing them open their wallets for us. Not that I think money is the be-all and end-all unless it was not paying the office bods behind our success enough ... 

The Red Sox are the crown jewel of their sports franchise. If FSG wins the NBA Las Vegas expansion team, then my guess is that we fall further behind in the importance to them. We're just an asset.

[Dave McCoy]

They've apparently got enough problems with the Red Sox at the moment after a poor season - and that's on their doorstep - so I'd imagine we're completely on the back burner as far as seeing them open their wallets for us. Not that I think money is the be-all and end-all unless it was not paying the office bods behind our success enough ... 

Their only problem is the Red Sox fans are insufferable. FSG has never spent their own money on a Red Sox player and never will. Baseball doesn't work like that.

[didi shamone]

The players just don’t want to play for Klopp anymore.

They did in the the 2nd half today.  We were by far the better team until we got hit with the  almost inevitable suckered punch. So for me it ain't a case of them downing tools.  If I thought it was I'd be calling them all c*nts.

[RedBec1993]

I think the lack of clarity as to whether the club is up for sale or just minor investment is unacceptable really.

That’s not an excuse for the players but surely there’s an uncertainty running through the whole club at the minute, including the players?

The decision for the chief exec to step back 3 months into a league season is shambolic in itself. Announcement of Julian Ward leaving 4 months into the job…. It’s just a shit show from top to bottom.

Supporters deserve clarity as to what is going on at our club, is it up for sale, is it not?

Why the major overhaul with the back room staff with no explanation? Things could get nasty for FSG if they don’t speak up.

[banksybanks]

Difficult to know what on earth is going on behind the scenes, but it feels like pretty much everyone staff-wise has either jumped ship, or is on the wind down before doing so. There doesn't seem to be anyone actually running the club anymore.

There's clearly a malaise about the place, feels like some sort of power struggle going on. Between who, i have no idea, but someone needs to get a grip and sort it out.

Luckily, no noise about Klopp losing the dressing room, but it certainly doesn't look like the team are playing for him, and there's no motivation at all. Klopp has to take some responsibility for that, but as I said, none of us really knows what's going on, and the main fault is with owners for allowing this to happen. I generally think FSG have been alright, but they've just let things turn to shit.

Tactically, something has to change, but we're clearly limited with the squad/form/mental state, compounded by constant injuries. Start of the second half today was encouraging in the sense that there seemed to be a bit of harmony in the front 3, but finishing woeful again, and it was no surprise at all that Wolves had one break and one goal. No-one has any confidence whatsoever. 

Looks like we'll just continue drifting aimlessly for the rest of the season; players coming back will help, of course. The lack of coordinated pressing has emphasised the problems in midfield. Jota, Diaz, Bobby will help with that, but the team at the moment just looks cobbled together and incoherent

It's going to take 2 or 3 midfielders and 1 centre back, minimum, to get us back to anywhere where we were, and that won't happen in one transfer window, probably not in two, and it's not just the playing side that needs an overhaul, it's the whole club. How we've gone so quickly from being the model everyone wants to copy, to being an example of how not to run a football club, is alarming, and how the owners have allowed it to happen is shocking

[Suareznumber7]

I'd be interested to know what posters' views are on our tactical flexibility.

It's extremely easy to criticise FSG, and the players. Being critical of Klopp and the coaching staff (in an honest, reflective way rather than a kneejerk "he's shit" way) is far less palatable because he's been brilliant for us, as a manager and a representative of the club and fans.

My query though is whether he's sufficiently tactically flexible to dig us out of the current hole. In my doubtlessly narrow view, Klopp's systems have been variations on a theme. High energy, high intensity, high press. A whole team working as one, utilising seemingly superhuman levels of fitness and resilience to recover the ball and attack again and again.

In his early years with us, sides were stupid enough to give us space to counter attack, and were brutally punished. Over time we've seen opposition increasingly utilise a "low block", and LFC try to unpick it. Even then, teams were wary of committing players forward because of our propensity to win the ball back and counter with pace and skill. As a result, our defence rarely came under any significant sustained pressure from the bulk of the sides we played in the league. And we could attack repeatedly until the quality of our creative players and forwards scored us a goal or two with little fear of being taken apart at the back.

An exception to this was our weak run in 2020/2021 when we lost our aura and our energy. Key players unavailable in defence and midfield, so teams had a go, with real success. We manage to put a run of form together and get over the line, but even then I recall real surprise at our reluctance to try something different tactically when we were lining up with Phillips and Rhys Williams at CB. The game against Villa was the most notable example of this failing when we conceded 7, but there were others.

This season, we have the above problems but compounded. Injuries to key players, but also apparently a woeful lack of fitness. Without our press, without our runners, our system just doesn't work. Moreover, teams look increasingly comfortable bypassing our press by pinging long balls behind our high line. Any weaknesses in our defence are exploited, players are pulled left and right, and we look pathetically easy to score against. Worse still we look blunt in attack. For so long we decried injuries to our midfielders. Now they're mostly fit and we look as bad as ever.

You can point the finger at FSG and say we need new midfielders, and you'd be right to. But does this problem go deeper than this? Are these players that are burnt out? Are they unable, or worse unwilling, to play in the way that they're being asked to? Has the system simply been "found out" now?

I don't know the answer but I'm less convinced than I was that we're simply going to bounce back in August and that this was a blip. And I just don't know the answer to the question at the start of my post. If Klopp can't get the players we have to play to his system, or worse still his system has simply been found out and is no longer fit for purpose, can he come up with something new, potentially very different, to turn it around?

I think it’s unlikely that Klopp changes the way we play and the way he manages the club.  The best managers have their ideas about how the game should be played and they rarely change that.  Look at Guardiola, mourinho, and Simeone just to name a few.  It’s the same thing, they see the game a certain way and their teams play that way all the time.  Sure, there are tactical tweaks depending on who they play but their style is their style.  Same with Klopp.  The way that he has us playing is the way that he sees the game and his belief that it’s the best way to play. 

I don’t think his system has been “found out”.  I just think we held on to some players too long and now need a massive rebuild in order for us to get back to the heights we were at just a year ago. 

[Suareznumber7]

I don't disagree with this, but I do wonder sometimes if the impact of corporate/ownership issues on the playing squad are exaggerated. FSG don't pick the team, or the tactics, or design the fitness routines etc. They are broadly responsible for the performance of the club, and knowing that they are actively looking to sell is unsettling, but as has been said above I just thing it's a bit of a cop out to say "this is because FSG are trying to sell up / FSG haven't invested enough" when we have a talented manager and a squad with a number of talented players. There's underperforming and underperforming, and a group of players who almost won the quadruple just over 6 months ago are now struggling for a top half place. We've been badly run for the last 12 months but I don't think Trent or Fabinho wake up every morning and turn up for training worrying about who is buying the club or when it's happening.

It’s also easier to blame FSG than to criticize Klopp.  People don’t seem to understand that you can criticize Klopp and the decisions that he’s made without wanting him sacked or replaced. 

[deano2727]

It’s also easier to blame FSG than to criticize Klopp.  People don’t seem to understand that you can criticize Klopp and the decisions that he’s made without wanting him sacked or replaced.

I've said it before, he doesn't come out of this smelling of roses, but at the end of the day, he can only work with what he has and the effort being put in. He is being let down on multiple fronts, but I also feel that he is a bit "gobsmacked" by the situation. I'm honestly not sure what he can do to make things different with what he has at his disposal.

Thankfully, he has plenty of credit in the bank, so as long as we don't get relegated, he will get a shot to fix this mess. And who would bet against him (funds depending).

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

It’s also easier to blame FSG than to criticize Klopp.  People don’t seem to understand that you can criticize Klopp and the decisions that he’s made without wanting him sacked or replaced.

Agree 100%. Even though I think he could have done better recently, still can’t imagine any other manager for us.

[Red46]

It’s also easier to blame FSG than to criticize Klopp.  People don’t seem to understand that you can criticize Klopp and the decisions that he’s made without wanting him sacked or replaced.

Jurgen has taken us to 3 Champions League and a Europa League Final in 6 years,  what’s amazing though is that isn’t even his most impressive feat, his most impressive feat involves him donning the sword. shield and armour of a sporting Sir Galahad and completing the quest for this clubs Holy Grail - our first league title in 30 years. If it wasn’t for the finest of margins, and I’m talking a Mane shot that looked well over the line to me but according to a tangled bunch of sh1tty wires, circuitry and cameras was 11 millimetres from doing so and a baffling refereeing/VAR decision not to award a penalty at Goodison when Rodri pulled off a save Gordon Banks and Lev Yashin would have been proud off he and we would be sitting here with 3 Premier League titles not 1.
11 millimetres, eff me la, a good gust of wind or if someone would have leant against the post we would have been champions.
Throw in to that lot both domestic trophies, a World Club Championship, Charity Shield and the best win ratio of any Liverpool manager then you have a haul most clubs would be proud of in their 100+ year histories never mind 6 years.
The fact this was all done in the era of financially doped petro-dollar clubs where our direct rivals have been the richest the game has ever seen just makes his achievements even more remarkable so I suppose you could criticise Jurgen just like you could criticise any manager, why did Bill Shankly sign the likes of Peplow and McGlaughlin etc etc.
Those with half a clue though will sit back, look at the big picture and question their atheism because eff me when they used to pray during the Ferguson era the day Sir Jurgen of the Black Forest rocked up it looked like someone did live up their in the clouds and what’s more they were listening.