Author Topic: Our new stadium - some fundamentals...  (Read 3374 times)

Offline Farman

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Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« on: April 22, 2002, 02:24:50 pm »
Before I cut to the chase I wish to make it very clear that I am not making a case here for or against a move to a new stadium. There are and have been some excellent points raised on this and other forums with regards to that, so I'll leave that debate to those more in the know.

My concern here is regarding what happens IF a stadium move gets the go-ahead, whether it be at Speke, on the car park across the road from Anfield, or anywhere else. Any new ground would have an expected life span of AT LEAST 80 years, and would of course be the home of our team, the place where we watch them play, somewhere that would form a major part of the spirit and future identity of our club. It goes without saying, therefore, that not only is the decision of whether to move of critical importance, but also the style and formula of any new stadium project. This is an issue that is clearly so much more important than the relatively minor arguments on who had a good game in the last match, or who should make way for our next signing, and yet, so far, I am worried that our relatively well-run club may fall into certain obvious pitfalls. Not that they have done yet, but if and when they do, it may be too late - they probably have some initial designs sorted out already.

The first fundamental point, which trancends all others, regards SUPPORTER CONSULTATION. All football clubs, including our own, need to do more to wise up to how their fans feel about all issues, but especially a decision such as this, from potential sites all the way through to the final naming (Sunderland Stadium of Light / The Walkers Bowl, anyone?). The club should do all they can to guage how the supporters feel about EVERY stage of the development process.

My second point regards CHARACTER and IDENTITY. Most away regulars will agree that trips to purpose-built stadiums such as at Derby, Southampton, Middlesbrough and the like are all very well from one point of view (they tend to be comfortable, have pretty good facilities and offer a decent view of thet action), but they're all so very...boring. They're all the same. There's very little unique about them that the fans can identify with and claim for their own. This does contrast with those stadiums developed over time - ironic really, given that a new stadium offers a chance to create that character from scratch. Would you want to have a bigger version of the Riverside as our home? I know I wouldn't.

I believe that, where possible, they should try to take as much of the LFC identity with them. By this, I don't just mean the obvious things like the Shankly Gates and the Hillsborough Memorial. Take the Kop, for example. The Kop nowadays does not mean the same bricks and mortar it used to be. To me it means a large, single-tier uninterupted cavern behind one goal where the most vociferous support chooe to watch the game from. This can be transferred to a new stadium quite easily. You could have something like the Millenium stadium, retain that horseshoe shape around three sides, and replace the end stand (the one which we were housed in for our three trophy wins) with a stand befitting the above description. You then have your clearly-defined home end (can anyone tell me the 'home end' at the Riverside? At Southampton I could have sworn the home end was right next to the away end - the Soton fans themselves didn't even seem to know!).

Third point - a little obvious really - but obviously NO ATHLETICS TRACK or equivealent. I'm surprised Man City fans seem to be OK with this - it ruins atmosphere and viewing (this is actually one thing that bothers me about new Wembley - it's a FOOTBALL STADIUM - why change the design for a one-off occasion that probably won't happen anyway?). If it can hold the odd rock concert for a bit of extra revenue then fine, but no other potential event should detract in any way from the football stadium concept.

Not only should we not have a running track, but any concave shape whatsoever should be avoided. Aaesthetically-pleasing the Stade de France may be, but the middle of each stand is about 10 metres from the pitch. The edge of every stand should run exactly in parrallel with the edge of the pitch, right next to the action.

My final point (for now!) - TRAFFIC and PARKING. Hard enough already with 45,000, so this needs looking at. Personally I'm all for lots of park-and-rides (so long as they don't have the mutilated buses they had at Southampton!). As a concept, it works well, is usually efficient and convenient, and the atmosphere and banter in the bus on the way the stadium is great fun. And no pesky scallies to pay to avoid a slashed tyre or two!

So that's my take on it. I've stuck to the bigger issues (rather than go into details like season ticket allocations, how much the beer should be, whether ther's a McNasty's etc). I've also left out the other hot issue of WHERE any new stadium should be. I'd be happy to see if other fans agree/disagree with me, whether there are matters they think I've left out and so-on.

I only hope that whatever happens, the club listens to the fans above all else.
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Offline RP4Ireland

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2002, 02:52:33 pm »
Great post.

The most important point for me is not the stadium itself, but the surrounding area. I'll explain.

I was lucky enough to pay a visit to Stadium Australia when I was Down Under, and it's absolutely stunning, best I've ever seen. However, it takes about an hour to get to it from the city. Once you get there, there's nothing to do only go in to the stadium. Now, call me old-fashioned, but for me a match-day isn't just about the game, it's about a couple of pints before the game soaking up the atmosphere. Walking down the road to the stadium passing pubs full of singing supporters - it gets you in the mood to cheer your team on.

Here in Ireland at the moment, a decision of a Government-funded National Stadium has become a bit of a hot topic in the run up to a General Election. The government want to build one 10 miles out of the city, in the middle of nowhere. Now as anybody who has been to Lansdowne Road can testify, it's a dump by modern standards. But the important thing is, with 32,000 drunken Irishmen in there, it's one of the loudest venues in International sport(we broke the record for noise at a sporting event recently!). I've been to Anfield for home games against the Scum and it's exactly the same.

But what makes city centre stadia special is that you can drink in the pubs in town, for Lansdowne, it's a 20min walk(or 5 hours if you stop in each pub on the way)to the ground, and every pub you pass is full of supporters. If you put grounds in the middle of nowhere, the day will become less special. They just become soulless.

Football has lost enough of it's magic to money, we should hang on to the bits we've got left.


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Offline king_of_the_kop

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2002, 07:22:28 pm »
Well 2 great posts and I agree that we should move to Stanley Park if everything is right and if not we should stay at Anfield.No speke or kings dock plans because than the locals lose out Anfield the area becomes inexistent and like Derby/stoke were stuck on a fucking motorway for gods sake.
Now to the ground itself,if it's in Stanley park we should make it like the Millenium stadium but a lot closer to the pitch.i.e.like the way Anfield is now pitch tight,and then make it into a horseshoe shape and then make a seperate bit like the south stand at Cardiff(great memories) were we house the kop, the singing fans.But then I come to the point were I think we can't scrap the memorial ,or Shanks' statue so fuck it stay at Anfield,build on the Anny road,make it 3 tiers and pull it back or knock it down and build a bigger,better one.Knock the main stand down make thant 3 tiers join it completely with the Anfield road and pull it back. surely that will give us a maxiumum of 60k.
What do the rest of u think what are your ideas
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Offline Roger

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2002, 07:40:21 pm »
Some great posts there. Critical is the single tier concept for the Kop and a unique identity to any new/ updated ground. No airfix identikit breezeblock effort for us please.

Anyone seen the area around where Bolton used to play? - absolute disgrace the way the area slid into desolation. Wouldnt want the same for Anfield and nor would the locals or the Club so I cant see us moving. There is permission to close the Anfield Rd if needs be and them streets behind the Main Stand are bombed out and ripe for demolition.

Things have gone a bit quiet on the stadium front though recently. I would appreciate some hard facts.

65000 seater and clear the season ticket list please!!!

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2002, 11:51:58 pm »
I seem to remember when the idea of moving first came about. i read somewhere that if the move across to Stanley Park happend, that Anfield would still be used as some sort of memorial park. Something about Shankly, Paisley, ect still be located at the original site.

As to the design..well here in the States where we build a few new stadium every year it seems, most have gone retro. Especially the new baseball parks. ( all are specifically built for one sport). They are not cookie cutter 40-60,000 seat stadia. Each has it's own quirks and design features. A new Anfield does not need to be bowl shape..

I for one would like to see a singing section at Anfield or a new stadium if it comes about. The easiest chance for that to happen is if a new stadium is built. It's not impossible at Anfield if the Club wants it to happen.

Further, i would like to see more done about airflow and sun ( liverpool..sun..lol) taken into consideration so the pitch stays in it's best possible shape. So the grounds crew should be asked what they need as well. Retractable roof or see through panels in the non retractable parts of the roof so the pitch gets more light, etc.

But i'd wager what ever is done or chosen..someone will whigne.. ;) just look what happens with a Kit change..
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Offline C.B Alonso

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2002, 02:33:50 am »
Lets fucking create an atmosphere instead of complaining about it.

Offline Steve_M

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2002, 02:33:00 pm »
Great posts guys. The Echo reported last week that the club is expected to make an announcement next month.

From what I can recall Rick Parry saying, even if LFC do  move grounds, Anfield will remain. Probably used for reserve games or something and the memorial would obviously stay.

Although Man City's new ground has indeed a running track around it, I believe that when the Commonwealth Games are over that the track will be ripped up and a lower tier built. This means the pitch will be lowered silmilar to what Barcelona did back in the 1950's, so that the surrounding street will be level with the second tier. I don't remember the link, but if you check MC's web site there is a link to a webcam at the new stadium which lets you have a look around it.

tom_m,
I understand where you're coming from, but for LFC to build 3 tiers on any part of the ground would require an enormous amount of demolition of the surrounding area. It's not just the space needed to build, but also within planning regulations, people in houses nearby have a right to light. In other words, you can't just build a huge building next door to them and block out all their light. I don't think most fans are aware how troublesome planning regulations can be in these type of cases. If you look at the amount of space behind the Centenary Stand and consider if another tier was on top of that, how far back the housing would have to be removed.

To build a 60,000 seater stadium on the current site would take a lot of redevelopment. If you consider that the Centenary Stand and the Kop both hold around 12,000 each, thats a total of 24,000 seats for half the ground. You'd need to build 36,000 seats in the other half just to get up to 60,000. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the club is going to have to pull a few strings to get permission for that sort of size of development in a residential area. Which is probably the reason the capacity may only be extended up to 55,000 or it works out cheaper to move to Stanley Park and start anew.

Offline Eli_B (aka Badland Red)

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2002, 04:43:05 pm »
Steve_M.....

Your'e correct about the atheltic track being ripped up and levelled  at Manchester City's new stadium. I think their stadium will be called the City of Manchester Stadium.

Also it seems that Rick Parry and the board will choose either Stanley Park or stay at Anfield?. But all reds fans will and see about the final outcome of this vital decison about the future of the club...
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Offline king_of_the_kop

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2002, 07:34:31 pm »
 Steve m
i am 1 of those fans who undermine the amount of redevolpment and all that,even though I am bootle born and bred I just think anything can happen
thanks for them points mate
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Offline easyRed

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2002, 07:42:18 pm »
Although planning regulations are strict, I think the council will have to give any redevelopment or move a lot of backing.  As well as the obvious worry regarding the economy of Anfield if we moved (are there any pubs by Goodison that aren't up for sale?!) the council cannot be seen to be giving their full backing  to one clubs move and not the others.  Kings Dock is going to be a nightmare with regards to infrastructure (if the city centre continues expanding out that way congestion is going to be horrific) as well as spoiling the waterfront. The area around Anfield can (just about) deal with 45,000 people already, with a bit of planning and the reopening of that station up Utting Avenue way, either an Anfield Redevelopment or a move accross Anfield Road would work.
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Offline Farman

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2002, 02:27:00 pm »
[I've decided to (shamelessly) revive this thread, since it is now much more topical and there were some good replies].

My own view on the move, which I deliberately did not express in my original post, is that I am all for it, IN PRINCIPLE, bearing in mind the difficulties of expanding the ground and bearind in mind it's staying in Anfield. The area will not be adversely affected and the matchday traditions, other than the stadium itself, can be maintained. As others have already expressed today the pitch, bricks and mortar in the current stadium have all been replaced recently (other than the unexceptional Main Stand), and as long as the club is sensitive to matters such as the memorial then there is not really that much tradition left if you really think about it.

However, that is not what my original post is really about. As I thought, fans have already started picking issues with the form of the actual proposed stadium, and I believe this is in fact the area that activists should be concentrating their efforts (I know I certainly would, given the opportunity to make a difference). I am disturbed that the fans have not been consulted on the initial designs, but it is imperative that this is done before plans are finalised.

Issues include:
Why only 55,000? (I personally would not mind missing out on a player or two for an extra 10,000 seats in the stadium that is to last the rest of my lifetime).

Why those gaps in the corners? Surely the cost of seats on the first tier is so much less than at the higher levels, so why not fill in the corners, even if it means realaying the pitch more frequently?

Why does it look like the Reebok stadium? Surely it should have more character, rather than the 'same every side' form of most modern stadia. Leading on to...

Why no clear and distinct single-tier cavernous Kop end, to retain the finest of our existing stadium's traditions?

These are some of the issues we should be concentrating on now, before it is too late.

The only thing I'm grateful for so far is the name. It SHOULD remain Anfield, because that's where it still is, and because that is the name synonymous with our club. If they'd have decided to name it something like 'The Carlsberg Bowl', well, then I'd just have to kill myself.
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Offline Paul

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2002, 02:31:50 pm »

Why no clear and distinct single-tier cavernous Kop end, to retain the finest of our existing stadium's traditions?


From the pics ive seen on the official site only one goal-end stand is visible. Its still possible the other end could be a single-tier effort - nothing has been confirmed by the club about this yet.

I suspect virtually all of the fans would like to see the Kop re-created in the new stadium trying to retain the current design as much as possible - just as when the all-seated Kop was built they tried to keep the original shape and feel of the terrace but on a somewhat larger scale.

Offline dan17

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2002, 03:14:08 pm »
I think its good for the stadium move, pricipally the increase in seats, however, why are there massive gaps in the corners and why only 55,000 anfield could have been increased to that. Anyone know what capacity arsenals new stadium will be?
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Offline KFC

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2002, 03:19:12 pm »
Arsenal's will be at 60,000+ but we are getting close.  I think we should have the design so that if we have to further increase the number of seats we will be able to do so easily.
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Offline saph

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2002, 03:33:24 pm »
a fundamental - do NOT move

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Offline Wilbur

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2003, 06:42:02 pm »
New announcement says the capacity will be 60,000, rather than the earlier 55,000.

[url/]http://www.lfconline.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=83355[url]
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Offline Roger

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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2003, 05:31:02 pm »
I think its good for the stadium move, pricipally the increase in seats, however, why are there massive gaps in the corners and why only 55,000 anfield could have been increased to that.

Rick Parry now says the stadium will be 'enclosed'. See above link.

The capacity is being kept to realistic levels as the Club do not want to overstretch themselves financially.


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Re:Our new stadium - some fundamentals...
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2003, 04:44:34 pm »
Agree pretty much

Made my points in this thread:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=8449

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