Topic: FSG (*)

[Redric1970]

So essentially, you're blaming FSG permanently because, after Jurgen met the player here, (and he is on record as getting cold feet, and our bid was outright rejected by the club), another club put in a higher bid that was accepted.

You have to leave out quite a lot to funnel that into the narrow "FSG lowballed it". I won't even disagree with that; meet the asking price. But it permanently changes your thinking? OK, we are different 

The thing that raises the most questions with me is, is the odd stuff about his head being a mess; if Jurgen himself is getting on a plane.... if it was Ayre, guess who would be getting slated?

Here is why I think I feel differently from most of you:

I think Jurgen going on record as having the final say in transfers is true, and I mentally drew a line under the transfer committee/Rodgers era. I believe it is different now. Not... 100% different, but Rodgers got sabotaged. Klopp hasn't been IMO.

I mean, Clint Dempsey now? I get it, there are patterns to be seen, but it looks like jumping at shadows to me.

Feel free to chuck more examples. I will look at them. I have no agenda. I'm not FSG's biggest fan! But really, Zielinski wasn't a concrete example.

It's not about the fact that Napoli put in a higher bid it's the fact Napoli paid the £13mil valuation and we didn't because we tried to save a few quid.


How about this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3408111/Liverpool-missed-Dele-Alli-signing-American-owners-pay-21-wage-4-000-week.html

http://www.90min.com/posts/4523285-liverpool-had-deal-for-dele-alli-wrapped-up-but-one-major-error-destroyed-the-transfer

[ToneLa]

It's not about the fact that Napoli put in a higher bid it's the fact Napoli paid the £13mil valuation and we didn't because we tried to save a few quid.

So the stuff about the player meeting Klopp and all that weird stuff is just.. not relevant

Fair dos. Look, if you really think was all it was, that you're entitled to. Some of this goes into belief. All I've done is talk about why I can't get on board.

 I think that was a weird failed transfer. If it was Ayre on the plane he'd be getting slated on here

I do think the system is different "enough" under Klopp, so I'll give anyone a free pass on any Rodgers era transfers cause some of that is inexcusable and I am not 100% FSG, I am 100% Klopp and don't believe he is being hampered.

Someone else can tackle those examples if they want I think the pre Klopp transfer committee, undermined the manager. I was so so relieved when Klopp started talking about his position in it (EG at the top. I would like some more info on how he works with Edwards - the Guardian have talked a bit about it, but nothing concrete? Weird.)

[Redric1970]

So the stuff about the player meeting Klopp and all that weird stuff is just.. not relevant

Fair dos. Look, if you really think was all it was, that you're entitled to. Some of this goes into belief. All I've done is talk about why I can't get on board.

 I think that was a weird failed transfer. If it was Ayre on the plane he'd be getting slated on here

I do think the era is different under Klopp, so I'll give anyone a free pass on any Rodgers era transfers. Someone else can tackle those if they want

But just out of interest was is your take on the above dele Ali links?

[whiteboots]

Anyone still unsure as to what FSG's financial strategy is should look no further than the definitive work by key FSG member, and guru, Seth Klarman:Margin of Safety: Risk-Averse Value Investing Strategies for the Thoughtful Investor.

[ToneLa]

But just out of interest was is your take on the above dele Ali links?

It is hard to be 100% because when you have other teams involved, who knows what other motivations there are?

I will say, in that case, and in a lot of Rodgers era stuff.. let me put it like this.

The simplest way to get a player, and bear in mind I don't consider myself an expert; probably involves getting the finance sorted and locked down especially if there are rivals for the signature. That remains something I want and remains something I will judge the club, FSG, on.

That seems to be what failed in that case and seeing how Alli took off I can see why some might be kicking themselves (I don't personally do "what if", you can torture yourself). You can tell Rodgers felt undermined and I felt for the guy towards the end. It is why I was happy Klopp came out and said what he did about decisions and transfers

... made up Ayre is going. Good luck to the fella, I am trying not to be sly about it, but Klopp getting on a plane is a massive improvement 

[Redric1970]

It is hard to be 100% because when you have other teams involved, who knows what other motivations there are?

I will say, in that case, and in a lot of Rodgers era stuff.. let me put it like this.

The simplest way to get a player, and bear in mind I am as informed as anyone else on here; probably involves getting the finance sorted and locked down especially if there are rivals for the signature.

That seems to be what failed in that case and seeing how Alli took off I can see why some might be kicking themselves (I don't personally do "what if", you can torture yourself). You can tell Rodgers felt undermined and I felt for the guy towards the end. It is why I was happy Klopp came out and said what he did about decisions and transfers

It is all about opinions and I can't say mine is right and yours is wrong or vice versa, I'm sure klopp has also made mistakes and has probably over estimated our squad. unfortunately I lost a lot of faith in FSG when they came out with the anfield road not paying for itself quick enough, that said a lot to me about them, but hey that's just my opinion, I can't say I'm right it's just what I think.

[ToneLa]

Fair dos mate, no hard feelings, I feel the same way about Annie Road. The timing of it, the reasons given, left a bad taste.

There's an update of sorts in the Stadium thread implying it might not be dead in the water?
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=330099.msg15139237#msg15139237

I will withhold praise for FSG til there's a spade in the ground!

[istvan kozma]

They are building a brand new 70k stadium- FSG have managed a new stand.

...And they're also millions in dept and sell their best player every other year, nobodies perfect.

[Redric1970]

Fair dos mate, no hard feelings, I feel the same way about Annie Road. The timing of it, the reasons given, left a bad taste.

There's an update of sorts in the Stadium thread implying it might not be dead in the water?
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=330099.msg15139237#msg15139237

I will withhold praise for FSG til there's a spade in the ground!

Definitely no hard feelings, it's all about opinions we all love this club and feel passionately about it and we all want what's best🙂. With regard the anfield road stand it was awful timing on their part it really took the wind out of the stadium's sales, I don't think they realise just how long we have waited to see anfield upgraded and it sunk in to me at that moment (it shouldn't have taken me so long) that it's a money making scheme for them and no more, but hey ho, it's been good chatting but the wife is snoring and farting next to me and that's my sign to sleep. 🙂

[Diomedieocre]

It's not about the fact that Napoli put in a higher bid it's the fact Napoli paid the £13mil valuation and we didn't because we tried to save a few quid.


How about this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3408111/Liverpool-missed-Dele-Alli-signing-American-owners-pay-21-wage-4-000-week.html

http://www.90min.com/posts/4523285-liverpool-had-deal-for-dele-alli-wrapped-up-but-one-major-error-destroyed-the-transfer

And yet went on to spend twice as much on gini....i think they got this penny pinchin lark a bit mixed up.

[Terry de Niro]

Is it ok to say that I am 100% in the Al and Kinki camp? Will I be banned if I say that these profiteers are in no way interested in taking the team to the next level. Profit for them from a foreign sports 'franchise' in which they have no interest is all they want.

I'm beginning to think they really are no better than Hicks/Gillett.

Exactly what I've been thinking for a good while, mate.

I can feel another one of these coming on...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngyb0RlnHnU

[Historical Fool]

They are building a brand new 70k stadium- FSG have managed a new stand.

Go ahead and make a post on the Mainboard asking how many match goers actually want a new stadium that is not Anfield.

[Solomon Grundy]

I'm beginning to think they really are no better than Hicks/Gillett.

They're no way near as bad as them mate. I too am starting to question whether they have the ambition and desire to do everything they can to make us a top side though.

[rscanderlech]

They're no way near as bad as them mate. I too am starting to question whether they have the ambition and desire to do everything they can to make us a top side though.

They obviously dont. If they arent ready to see us expanding the stadium from 53,000 to 59,000 when several teams in england and Europe that were historically smaller clubs and have smaller fan based too, are building brand new stadiums bigger than 53,000, and the reason for their reluctance is not that it isnt profitable but merely that it will take a long time to be profitable, then it shows that they would rather make a risk-averse comfortable profit as a relatively big club in a big league than make a huge but higher-risk profit by returning us to the biggest stage.

We couldnt buy Ben chilwell.



But yes they arent Hicks/Gillett.

[CraigDS]

Anyone still unsure as to what FSG's financial strategy is should look no further than the definitive work by key FSG member, and guru, Seth Klarman:Margin of Safety: Risk-Averse Value Investing Strategies for the Thoughtful Investor.

Key FSG member? Would you care to post your sources as to just how key this non-board member of FSG this guy is....

[CraigDS]

They obviously dont. If they arent ready to see us expanding the stadium from 53,000 to 59,000 when several teams in england and Europe that were historically smaller clubs and have smaller fan based too, are building brand new stadiums bigger than 53,000, and the reason for their reluctance is not that it isnt profitable but merely that it will take a long time to be profitable, then it shows that they would rather make a risk-averse comfortable profit as a relatively big club in a big league than make a huge but higher-risk profit by returning us to the biggest stage.

And if they end up taking the stadium to well over 60k with an even larger Anny Rd, which has been rumoured for a while, then this suddenly changes everything for you?

[hide5seek]

One thing we do know is bar sales we didn't spend any money last summer. Now that could've been down to Klopp himself but it left us squad short. I realise also Klopps likes to develope players which is highly commendable but sometimes buying ready made isn't a bad idea, just means more money spent.

[Robinred]

The summer transfer window is my own deadline for crossing over the FSG fence to negativity

Top 4 = we have champion's league & need to strengthen
No top 4 = we failed and need to strengthen

This is my position too, though I'm far from convinced I'm not heading for a fall.

[rich87]

Two things come to mine - How are standards and expectations have been lowered over and over again over the recent years. The standard we came to expect from this club has been corrupted somewhere along the lines.

We should always strive to be the best, right now, we're content with being in the Premier League cash cow.



Secondly this. The longer we are owned with owners that have no ambition the longer, slower death this feels like. It feels like are football club has no sense of belonging anymore, the feel good factor is going, and I'm with Terry De Niro, Cowtownred, AL, Kinki and the others.

We fought to get the club back to a stable position, and I'm glad FSG has given us that, but now we want them back to where they belong. The Top!

[rscanderlech]

And if they end up taking the stadium to well over 60k with an even larger Anny Rd, which has been rumoured for a while, then this suddenly changes everything for you?

Not everything, but certainly a lot. If they can show that they were willing to expose themselves a little bit for the sake of a higher ambition, then that certainly would change something. I respond to evidence, so yes.

[So… Howard Philips]

It may have already been posted but what profit do FSG take out of the club?

[CraigDS]

It may have already been posted but what profit do FSG take out of the club?

They don't. Or haven't in every set of accounts posted to date.

When they come to sell the club, who knows when, they will realise a very tidy profit indeed of course. Is it more than they could have made via a less volatile, public and emotive investment is no doubt debatable given a number of the groups previous investment success.

[gravy red]

Right...I'm expecting the worst (as in reply's and getting slaughtered), but here goes anyway...

For me, i compare the way our club (or even, any club)  is being run as as like being at a poker table (and yes I've been known top have a gamble). Usually the person with the most amount of money will keep their nerve and gamble more on the cards dealt than someone with less money. So if your going to sit at a table with 'NO LIMIT', then be prepared to be bullied by the higher stakes.

There was a time when the game/owners had an interest in a club (i.e supported them as a youngster or maybe, lived near the team), but now football clubs have become (somewhat) of a statement in terms of 'wealth' and for me that is why so many billionaire owners are looking at buying a football club and prove their position in the big money league. long gone are the days of out doing each other with big houses, flash cars, yachts and private jets (fuck me the footballers themselves have these)  and it's not just happening over here, but it's definitely a Global thing (just look at China Russia etc).

I've always thought of 60,000+ to be the number required for any New/expanded stadium, as minimum (and yes this does include Anfeld). O'k it will and does cost a lot to make/expand these stadiums, but the fact is they are going to continue getting bigger and newer. I sit here and think where will Anfield be in the ranks of stadiums in 10 years time (compared to where it was?). We have the fan base and a season ticket waiting list as long as your arm, so i'm figgering we would have no problem in filling it most games?

Like a lot of people on here i'm on the fence with FSG. All i want for the club is to be a place where we can attract the big names and the odd star player...So it has to be a stadium that stands out from the rest, and we are trying to do that with ours  instead of a modern day fish bowl.

Yes we have our 'History' but we can not survive on the 'past' and if us getting interest in a 'Billionaire' backer/owner is what will help us attract such players and maybe bring back some good times where we can become a 'power force in European football' with a 60'000+ stadium, then for me the fence will have toppled...

As long as those owners have the best interest of the club and remember us as supporters (are there such Billionaires, I don't know?) but one thing is for sure you need to have a bit more than just Millions in the bank to compete with the Billionaires to continue being a club that will survive at the very top.

p.s My post is not about the success on the pitch (as there are many other threads for that) but merely how i feel about the money/wealth of owners/investors today's clubs. 

[Red Viper]

They're nowhere near as bad as Hicks and Gillett but it's clear that FSG are only interested in us to make a bit of money.

I think they'll be gone within a year or two personally, having sold us for a nice healthy profit.

[CraigDS]

They're nowhere near as bad as Hicks and Gillett but it's clear that FSG are only interested in us to make a bit of money.

I think they'll be gone within a year or two personally, having sold us for a nice healthy profit.

I'd be extremely surprised if they are gone within the next 5 years unless someone comes in with a ridiculously inflated offer.

[Red Viper]

I'd be extremely surprised if they are gone within the next 5 years unless someone comes in with a ridiculously inflated offer.

How come? I'd be extremely surprised if they were still here in 5 years to be honest. Maybe I'm just being optimistic for a change.

[rscanderlech]

They're nowhere near as bad as Hicks and Gillett but it's clear that FSG are only interested in us to make a bit of money.

I think they'll be gone within a year or two personally, having sold us for a nice healthy profit.

I doubt it. I think they will only leave when it becomes clear that the industry is slowing down/reaching saturation/in a bubble that is about to burst. Alternatively, they might find that they are able to produce very attractive profits year after year, and not sell at all.

[Red Viper]

I doubt it. I think they will only leave when it becomes clear that the industry is slowing down/reaching saturation/in a bubble that is about to burst. Alternatively, they might find that they are able to produce very attractive profits year after year, and not sell at all.

They'll only get away with that for so long if the club continues to languish in mid table and the trophy cabinet stays empty. The penny will eventually drop with alot of fans.

[killer-heels]

Lets just wait until the summer to make a proper judgement. If we sell Coutinho then legitimate questions need to be asked and if we dont but dont spend much then also questions need to be asked. At the moment a lot of the questions are towards the footballing side.

[CraigDS]

How come? I'd be extremely surprised if they were still here in 5 years to be honest. Maybe I'm just being optimistic for a change.

I don't think they'll see a reason to sell so soon, no matter what their real aims are.

If they are purely in it for profit only then the value of the investment is only going to rise, the bubble isn't going to burst anytime soon with that regard and there will be many markets and opportunities to exploit going forward.

If they are in it as sports investors, then why would they look to sell one of the most well known sports clubs in the world when they have no financial requirement to do so? Especially when there is still a job to be done.

If it's somewhere in the middle of the two then take a bit of reason from them both and it still doesn't add up to them rushing off, imo.

[CraigDS]

Lets just wait until the summer to make a proper judgement. If we sell Coutinho then legitimate questions need to be asked and if we dont but dont spend much then also questions need to be asked. At the moment a lot of the questions are towards the footballing side.

It's certainly a very very big for them, including for my own opinion of them (as much as some like to think otherwise).

[Grobbelrevell]

They don't. Or haven't in every set of accounts posted to date.

Indeed, and have generally done what they said they'd do right from the off; Work to increase profitability / re-invest profits / no deficit spending. Them continuing to do so should not be a surprise. And none of it makes them the second coming of Hicks and Gillett, which is way, way wide of the mark. My main gripe with FSG has always centered around (lack of) interaction with supporters, given their early PR campaign on that topic.

Whether or not they're the ownership capable of pushing the club on into the top tier of English and European football is another question, but along with that question comes the follow-up of what kind of ownership we need/want in order to do that, if it's not this. So on that, if not FSG, then who? What does this new ownership look like, and how does it run the club in a financial sense? How is it different? Is it sustainable?

[killer-heels]

What is our average finish in the league under FSG? Obviously we had 1 finish where we came 2nd, but off the top of my head i think it went 6th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th. Is that right or have a missed a season in there?

[Red Viper]

What is our average finish in the league under FSG? Obviously we had 1 finish where we came 2nd, but off the top of my head i think it went 6th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th. Is that right or have a missed a season in there?

6th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th.

[killer-heels]

6th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th.

Yep thought id missed a season. Well straight away I would be asking the question that if you are labelling me as the 5th best spenders in wages and net spend then why are you not consistently coming 5th? Realistically apart from when we finished 2nd we havent looked like challenging for 4th at all and Spurs, who have had far less spending than us, have finished ahead of us.

In that time we have won 1 final, lost 3. Now 2 losses were against City and Chelsea but we lost to Sevilla and we lost a big semi final to fucking Aston Villa.

FSG do have some question marks and we will see this summer whether they are willing to stump up the cash to get us to the CL and beyond but lets not hide how badly the lot on the field and dugout have done over their tenure.

[Upinsmoke]

9.5 million net spend per window since they arrived.

[Red Viper]

Yep thought id missed a season. Well straight away I would be asking the question that if you are labelling me as the 5th best spenders in wages and net spend then why are you not consistently coming 5th? Realistically apart from when we finished 2nd we havent looked like challenging for 4th at all and Spurs, who have had far less spending than us, have finished ahead of us.

In that time we have won 1 final, lost 3. Now 2 losses were against City and Chelsea but we lost to Sevilla and we lost a big semi final to fucking Aston Villa.

FSG do have some question marks and we will see this summer whether they are willing to stump up the cash to get us to the CL and beyond but lets not hide how badly the lot on the field and dugout have done over their tenure.

It'd be a bit of dick move for blaming FSG completely for our lack of silverware since they arrived because we've been to 4 finals and a few semi finals and managed only to win one league cup. But the disgraceful league performance over the past 7 years they can be held accountable for as IMO, it's mainly as a result of underinvestment, poor recruitment (staff and players) and failure to hold on to our best players.

[DonkeyWan]

*sigh*

I see this thread just goes from strength to strength. Rather than (once again) pointing out the fallacies in so many of the posts I would instead ask posters to start naming club owners they approve of and why.

[northern Monkey]

I'm still in the wait and see camp.

They have done everything they said they would.  They haven't taken a penny yet. As others have said we aren't that ki D of investment.  The profit will come when they sell up I would think.

Problem with net spend argument is clear when looking at which big money signings have worked out since they took over.  Our track record when spending big is atrocious.

Now they are I charge of who gets to spend the money so it still lands on them as owners for making what would seem to be clearly bad choices.. but.. having been stung with big transfers not working out and the compete lack of meaning gful European football in their time I can see reasons for the low spend. We keep selling the previous signing as they werent good enough getting a chunk back.  Argue whatever else you want but we definitely IMO do much better at getting some value back.

This summer is massive.  Klopp will hopefully steer us to CL but even without has shown a big improvement in our on the field play.  He has to be trusted and backed big this window. 

If we let a big value, first 11 player go (Coutinho being the obvious) then the naysayers can probably be said to be right.  Likewise if the incoming transfers aren't good enough.

With how little we have net spent, we must have a sizeable funds in place. Summer window for is me is time to go big or go home.  100m net doesn't sound remotely crazy on balance. It needs to be spent and spent well.

Maybe I'm niavely but I'm willing to keep the faith to then.

[killer-heels]

It'd be a bit of dick move for blaming FSG completely for our lack of silverware since they arrived because we've been to 4 finals and a few semi finals and managed only to win one league cup. But the disgraceful league performance over the past 7 years they can be held accountable for as IMO, it's mainly as a result of underinvestment, poor recruitment (staff and players) and failure to hold on to our best players.

There is mitigation for a lot of that though. Players who wanted to go, had clauses and were not signing contracts went. Thats why i say that this summer is big because even if Coutinho wanted to leave for Barca, a big club forces him to stay so if he is sold they deserve a shit load of abuse.

If there is one area i agree with its their decision making. Hiring chancers like Commolli and putting the likes of Edwards in key roles (what qualifications does he have exactly) is asking for failure.