Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[Fitzy.]

Interesting review show. I’ve still no idea what the derby line up will be. Not sure I go with the “11 changes” shout.

[NotTooXabi12]

Although the responses will be the same as usual to my post regarding Sean but has been coming out with even more bizarre things than usual on the review of late.

Dan hosting with the two Neil's would make a far better show

[kavah]

That was a great discussion on the weekender with Neil, Gibbo and Rory Smith.
Smith in his article is asking for rule changes but I think Neil's point was a great one - that is don't use VAR for offside and put up with the odd shocking decision (for example Sterling at the Etihad when he was playing for us).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/29/sports/soccer/liverpool-wolves-VAR-premier-league.html

[Zlen]

Is there an Overview show coming soon (if that is the name of the show when you look ahead to the next block of games)?

Seems like ages ago since there was one.

[Fitzy.]

Rory Smith’s point that fans just complain about everything is valid. The noise around VAR is just like the noise around refs last season. While certain gripes are legitimate, VAR is just another avenue to moan.

[Fitzy.]

TAW App isn’t working. Had trouble over past couple of days with it. A bit in and out. Works then doesn’t. Is it this virus thing?

[courty61]

Think servers may be down? Cant get on anything

[Golden_Child]

Same for me again as well. Listened to the pink on the website but wanted to catch the post match pint vid 

[Byrnee]

Same for me, restarted it but no joy on Android 

Edit - all sorted now, cheers!

[Guz-kop]

Rory Smith’s point that fans just complain about everything is valid. The noise around VAR is just like the noise around refs last season. While certain gripes are legitimate, VAR is just another avenue to moan.

Thought the EFL and weekender chat about VAR was pretty spot on. Its weird no one is moaning that much anymore in cricket if there's 51% of the ball hitting leg stump for one situation and 49% for another situation that could occur the very next ball.
 
Looking forward to tonight's pink

[kavah]

Pink's up

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Rory Smith’s point that fans just complain about everything is valid. The noise around VAR is just like the noise around refs last season. While certain gripes are legitimate, VAR is just another avenue to moan.

Sure, but then he panders to the moans by suggesting radical law changes to the offside rule, which feels somewhat less valid.

As did comparing moans about VAR to Brexit voters. He's a good writer, Smith, but doesn't half talk a load of waffle. His prediction that Spurs would finish above us this season case in point.

[Alisson Wonderland]

The laughing at the start of the pink pretty much summed up my reaction to the game as well 

[Fitzy.]

Sure, but then he panders to the moans by suggesting radical law changes to the offside rule, which feels somewhat less valid.

As did comparing moans about VAR to Brexit voters. He's a good writer, Smith, but doesn't half talk a load of waffle. His prediction that Spurs would finish above us this season case in point.

I think if you're paid to talk loads then you're going to come out with some whoppers at times. I think he has interesting insights and articulates them with real clarity most of the time. His general verdict of the current Liverpool side has been a tad underwhelming for a while - certainly not fulsome enough given the reality of the side's predominance. I think he's a Liverpool fan so might be over-compensating a tad.

The Brexit shout is just a bit of TAW-like humour. Like calling things 'Tory' that you think are a bit posh or rarefied. In essence, angry men that get angry about VAR are the same kind of angry men that get angry about foreigners...is what the joke is.

[Mactavish]

Although the responses will be the same as usual to my post regarding Sean but has been coming out with even more bizarre things than usual on the review of late.

Dan hosting with the two Neil's would make a far better show

Yeah his Review career is surely on the ropes now?

[Fromola]

Thought the EFL and weekender chat about VAR was pretty spot on. Its weird no one is moaning that much anymore in cricket if there's 51% of the ball hitting leg stump for one situation and 49% for another situation that could occur the very next ball.
 
Looking forward to tonight's pink

What's caused the moans with VAR is all the disallowed goals for goals that look fine in real time due to the strictness of the law regarding offsides and handball in review. Fans are celebrating and then have the goal taken off them 3 minutes later for the flimsiest of offsides that even on the replay look onside. It kills the feel and flow of a game, we saw that against Wolves, even though it went in our favour.

I think Neil makes a good point regarding the dangers of changing the offside law but they can't keep VAR as it is with offsides because it's killing games. Either they have a higher burden of proof for overturning goals via VAR for offside (i.e. the whole of the player has to be ahead of the last defender which then makes it clear and obvious) or they just don't use it for offside. That saves a law change. I think with handball players are more used to now knowing they can't handle it, as most of these disallowed goals were early in the season.

VAR was sold to us as being for clear and obvious errors, not to re-ref the game and spend minutes analysing fractions. The fractions of goalline tech works in seconds.

[John C]

Great main show today, superb reflection off the performances and the giggles of a memorable afternoon at Anfield.

[Guz-kop]

What's caused the moans with VAR is all the disallowed goals for goals that look fine in real time due to the strictness of the law regarding offsides and handball in review. Fans are celebrating and then have the goal taken off them 3 minutes later for the flimsiest of offsides that even on the replay look onside. It kills the feel and flow of a game, we saw that against Wolves, even though it went in our favour.

I think Neil makes a good point regarding the dangers of changing the offside law but they can't keep VAR as it is with offsides because it's killing games. Either they have a higher burden of proof for overturning goals via VAR for offside (i.e. the whole of the player has to be ahead of the last defender which then makes it clear and obvious) or they just don't use it for offside. That saves a law change. I think with handball players are more used to now knowing they can't handle it, as most of these disallowed goals were early in the season.

VAR was sold to us as being for clear and obvious errors, not to re-ref the game and spend minutes analysing fractions. The fractions of goalline tech works in seconds.

I don't disagree with that and I'm in favour of the equivalent of an "umpires call" to come in somehow. The hysteria is disproportionate though for what are, in essence correct decisions. It was similar when the phase of play hysteria happened about 15 years ago. If they can tweak the way VAr is used I think it'll settle down. The biggest disappointment for me is how much the media (and all of us I guess) go on about it. Lee Dixon after our 4-0 at Leicester claiming he had no choice but to talk about the (correct) handball VAR decision did it for me

[Iska]

I think Rory Smith’s probably nailed it with the ‘English football is a culture of complaining’ observation.

I don't disagree with that and I'm in favour of the equivalent of an "umpires call" to come in somehow.

I did think this might mitigate VAR, but on second thoughts we’d probably instead get endless studio debate about whether something fell into the Umpire’s Call zone, or was just outside.  There’s no way out of it, it’s just who ‘we’ are.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

What's caused the moans with VAR is all the disallowed goals for goals that look fine in real time due to the strictness of the law regarding offsides and handball in review. Fans are celebrating and then have the goal taken off them 3 minutes later for the flimsiest of offsides that even on the replay look onside. It kills the feel and flow of a game, we saw that against Wolves, even though it went in our favour.

I think Neil makes a good point regarding the dangers of changing the offside law but they can't keep VAR as it is with offsides because it's killing games. Either they have a higher burden of proof for overturning goals via VAR for offside (i.e. the whole of the player has to be ahead of the last defender which then makes it clear and obvious) or they just don't use it for offside. That saves a law change. I think with handball players are more used to now knowing they can't handle it, as most of these disallowed goals were early in the season.

VAR was sold to us as being for clear and obvious errors, not to re-ref the game and spend minutes analysing fractions. The fractions of goalline tech works in seconds.

This would just be daft.

In my opinion they should draw the line by the feet if it's outside the area, and keep it as it is inside the area (as headed goals come into play more then). I'd wager 90% of the tight disallowed goals we've seen would've been allowed using that method. Pukki v Spurs and Zaha v Southampton most recently spring to mind. When strikers are bending their run like Pukki expertly did, they're thinking and looking at their feet and their opponent's feet, not their armpit. You're not truly ahead of someone if the two things you're running on aren't.

[FlashGordon]

This would just be daft.

In my opinion they should draw the line by the feet if it's outside the area, and keep it as it is inside the area (as headed goals come into play more then). I'd wager 90% of the tight disallowed goals we've seen would've been allowed using that method. Pukki v Spurs and Zaha v Southampton most recently spring to mind. When strikers are bending their run like Pukki expertly did, they're thinking and looking at their feet and their opponent's feet, not their armpit. You're not truly ahead of someone if the two things you're running on aren't.

Is that only for the competitions that have VAR though? No way an assistant referee in League 2 could manage to call that? The whole thing is a clusterfuck really.

[Fitzy.]

The VAR debate has been amplified by noisy and angry punditry where we seem to have concluded that we never wanted this in the first place and that we actually likes refs making profound errors. The revisionism is absurd.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Is that only for the competitions that have VAR though? No way an assistant referee in League 2 could manage to call that? The whole thing is a clusterfuck really.

I dont think it would make any difference, a linesman in L2 would just call it as they see it within the split second whilst running with a flag in their hand. It wont alter the % of wrong calls

[BassTunedToRed]

The VAR debate has been amplified by noisy and angry punditry where we seem to have concluded that we never wanted this in the first place and that we actually likes refs making profound errors. The revisionism is absurd.

Agreed. Punditry being routinely reduced to assessing referee's decisions has played a part in VAR being needed.  The commentators/pundits not even knowing the rules regarding what VAR can or can't do is annoying too, as it fuels and 'informs' public opinion on it.

[NotTooXabi12]

Yeah his Review career is surely on the ropes now?

I see what you did there and very much like it

[Dench57]

yeah big fan of that

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Is that only for the competitions that have VAR though? No way an assistant referee in League 2 could manage to call that? The whole thing is a clusterfuck really.

Yeah I'm only talking VAR offside calls there mate. I suppose the problem then is you have different rules for different leagues. Like you say, clusterfuck. Just feels a lot more natural being called for offside if your feet ahead than your armpit and I think fans/players would be more accepting of it.

[FlashGordon]

Yeah I'm only talking VAR offside calls there mate. I suppose the problem then is you have different rules for different leagues. Like you say, clusterfuck. Just feels a lot more natural being called for offside if your feet ahead than your armpit and I think fans/players would be more accepting of it.

Yeah fair enough. I'm of the opinion at the moment that they should just leave it as it is because I haven't seen any suggestions that are 100% workable yet.

[FlashGordon]

I dont think it would make any difference, a linesman in L2 would just call it as they see it within the split second whilst running with a flag in their hand. It wont alter the % of wrong calls

What happens in the FA Cup so where offside rule is dependant on which ground you're playing at? I know there's goal line technology already but that doesn't require a rule change.

[kavah]

Gutmann's Overview is up - nice one

[Kenny's Jacket]

What happens in the FA Cup so where offside rule is dependant on which ground you're playing at? I know there's goal line technology already but that doesn't require a rule change.

I dont see how it requires different rules in different leagues or non VAR rules. How do linesman make these calls in the first place? Its just a slight difference. 

[Fitzy.]

Mike Nevin has been on Twitter complaining about being excommunicated from TAW with no real explanation or contact. Nevin was a very strong contributor, particularly the history shows. A real expert on the stuff. As I have posted before, I found his take on Klopp and more contemporary topics significantly out of step with how I saw things. His Twitter persona was also a little off colour at times compared to the person we hear speak so brilliantly and lovingly about the reds on the history shows. His absence has pretty much meant an end to those shows from what I can see. That's a real shame.

However, while Nevin speaks out about his exclusion from content, TAW have remained silent on the issue - as is their prerogative. In fact, for them to have acted as they have they must feel that they have just cause. They won't have arbitrarily binned-off one of their most heralded contributors for the fun of it. My point is that the noise around this is a bit one-sided and might need taking with a pinch of salt. I'm sure there are two-sides. It's just that we may not ever know both sides.

[courty61]

Yeah it was all a bit odd on twitter yesterday when Mike was RT a load of comments from people missing him from TAW.

I liked some of his contributions alongside the older chaps like Ian and Rob but he did seem to be dead set against Klopp for ages. Which is his right, but I did find it odd at times.

A real shame about the history shows and hopefully they can sort it all out.

As an aside Mike was involved in Reds Bet. Did TAW ever say why they ceased being partnered with them? Was it just at the end of the deal? 2onder if there is a link there perhaps?

[Mactavish]

Mike Nevin has been on Twitter complaining about being excommunicated from TAW with no real explanation or contact. Nevin was a very strong contributor, particularly the history shows. A real expert on the stuff. As I have posted before, I found his take on Klopp and more contemporary topics significantly out of step with how I saw things. His Twitter persona was also a little off colour at times compared to the person we hear speak so brilliantly and lovingly about the reds on the history shows. His absence has pretty much meant an end to those shows from what I can see. That's a real shame.

However, while Nevin speaks out about his exclusion from content, TAW have remained silent on the issue - as is their prerogative. In fact, for them to have acted as they have they must feel that they have just cause. They won't have arbitrarily binned-off one of their most heralded contributors for the fun of it. My point is that the noise around this is a bit one-sided and might need taking with a pinch of salt. I'm sure there are two-sides. It's just that we may not ever know both sides.

I think he's, sorely, sorely missed.

It's all far too young for me now.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I miss his contributions, I'm a similar vintage and from a similar area so I get where he's coming from.

I did struggle with the Klopp rationale which seemed to be based on him being lauded or getting a free pass from criticism before he'd achieved anything. I think what may have rankled was the stick Rafa had to put up with from inside and outside the fanbase.

I loved Rafa, and hated the way he was treated, but I could see early on that Klopp had what it took and that he was making progress. In fact he was making progress with the squad that finished the 14/15 season with a whimper. It was seeing some of the impatience that was beginning to surface occasionally on here in around 2016 that motivated me to stop lurking and start posting.

My view then was that if another good man and manager was hounded out by a baying entitled mob, then I would be done with all this. Fortunately that didn't happen, but we've seen what a succession of managers hounded out by a baying mob at very close quarters over the last few years.....

[FlashGordon]

I dont see how it requires different rules in different leagues or non VAR rules. How do linesman make these calls in the first place? Its just a slight difference.

Slight difference equates to different rules though?

[royhendo]

They won't have arbitrarily binned-off one of their most heralded contributors for the fun of it.

How do you know that Fitzy?

Mike was on here discussing this a few pages ago.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=279444.msg16856142#msg16856142

[Barefoot Doctor]

Dan Austin on Adama Traore was a bit weird. Fair enough not rating him, but he was absolutely adamant that he "barely plays, not even a starter for them."

Amazing how opinions can be formed from complete nonsense, because a quick check shows he's featured in 20 of 21 league games and started all but three of them. Presumably he thinks the same about Salah, who's only featured in 17 league games this season.

[DangerScouse]

Mike's contributions sorely missed. He shits on most of them in terms of substance and knowledge.

[Learpholl]

Dan Austin on Adama Traore was a bit weird. Fair enough not rating him, but he was absolutely adamant that he "barely plays, not even a starter for them."

Dan Morgan*