Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[ShakaHislop]

So, what are people's thoughts here about what May's latest fuck-up means for the Remain campaign? Will it hasten her departure and result in an even more obnoxious, hard-Brexiteering PM to take over? And what then?

Yes, and it means soft Brexit will be off life support. The Lisa Nandy and Stephen Kinnocks of this world will be forced to choose backing a no deal Brexit as the only way to "honour" the result of 2016, or grow a pair and back Remain. My heart bleeds.

[Mutton Geoff]

Its only changing when the older voters who are driving the Brexit vote are no longer here or we suffer a massive economic meltdown. Other than that, the idea that there will be some amazing leader or message that will make people change their minds is for the birds.

Whilst we have this moronic public, it will still be heavily backing Brexit.

Christ on a bike how many old people do you think there are in this country 17+ million is it?

Sick of the need to blame one section of society wake up will ya all ages and gender voted for it sadly not just the over 65's in this country this need to aportion blame rather than deal with the reasons for them voting for it and working on answering their problems is exactly why this bloody country is so toxic right now.

I think you also need to move away from the notion that anyone who voted to leave is a moron as again if you dont listen to them you cannot hope to resolve their attitudes .
towards the E.U.

Just for reference i voted to remain as did most of my over 65 friends ( anecdotal i know but its a funny old world)

[killer-heels]

Christ on a bike how many old people do you think there are in this country 17+ million is it?

Sick of the need to blame one section of society wake up will ya all ages and gender voted for it sadly not just the over 65's in this country this need to aportion blame rather than deal with the reasons for them voting for it and working on answering their problems is exactly why this bloody country is so toxic right now.

I think you also need to move away from the notion that anyone who voted to leave is a moron as again if you dont listen to them you cannot hope to resolve their attitudes .
towards the E.U.

Just for reference i voted to remain as did most of my over 65 friends ( anecdotal i know but its a funny old world)

That age range overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU. I am not doubting you personally but those are the facts. The older voters are mainly voters for Leave.

As for convincing them otherwise, it cannot be done. It hasnt been able to be done by politicians, business leaders, scientists, celebrities or family members and friends. The arguments have been made and you cannot reason with them at all.

All that is left is for things to be imposed on them. So revocation of Article 50 and tell them to shut up. Or we enact it, suffer the consequences and then ask to rejoin.

[Yosser0_0]

It's all in the history books,the hard right were allowed to dictate public opinion, they were allowed to convince the public that voting against the triggering of ART 50 was refusing to accept the referendum result. how were they allowed to run riot dictating public opinion? The leader of the opposition had no arguments. I wouldn't mind but one of the first statements by Cameron after the referendum was to order the impact reports into how leaving the EU will affect us in all areas. it's not hindsight to say we should have waited till we had much more information before we triggered ART 50. the public shouldn't be arguing for the Labour leadership to argue this point, the Labour leader should have been ramming this point home himself. the Labour leader said, "Labour will not stand in the way of the triggering of ART 50" without having a clue what the impact of Brexit would be, without having a clue on whether the Tories had a plan or the slightest idea if they knew what they were doing.

That's because they wanted to watch the Tories fuck up Brexit and give themselves a pathway to power, party interests before country. The thing is that they didn't really think it through as they can't sit on the sidelines forever and at some point Labour would have been dragged into it anyway and would also have had to take responsibility for Brexit. Its come to the point where the Labour party are also being badly damaged by Brexit, despite their claims, it is no longer just a 'Tory Brexit mess'.

[Mutton Geoff]

That age range overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU. I am not doubting you personally but those are the facts. The older voters are mainly voters for Leave.

As for convincing them otherwise, it cannot be done. It hasnt been able to be done by politicians, business leaders, scientists, celebrities or family members and friends. The arguments have been made and you cannot reason with them at all.

All that is left is for things to be imposed on them. So revocation of Article 50 and tell them to shut up. Or we enact it, suffer the consequences and then ask to rejoin.

You think disregarding the reasons they voted leave will work, you dont tell half the country to deal with it and shut up because thats exactly what we as remainers have complained that the leavers say to us, you need to find a compromise that will bring this country back together not split it further, like it or not the vote was as close to a fifty-fifty split as you can get, so it needs to use an old termm more jaw , jaw, and less war, war within our society.

Again you are saying there are roughly 17 million old people in this country and they all voted leave can you see how stupid that notion is , essex white van drivers voted leave , people on the breadline told that it was all the EU's fault voted leave , people voted leave as a protest vote.

[Elmo!]

Again you are saying there are roughly 17 million old people in this country and they all voted leave can you see how stupid that notion is , essex white van drivers voted leave , people on the breadline told that it was all the EU's fault voted leave , people voted leave as a protest vote.

No one has ever said that all old people voted for Brexit.

The fact is a large majority did though. That does not mean people are casting aspersions on you.

[Riquende]

you need to find a compromise that will bring this country back together not split it further,

There is no compromise, because the deep divide is one of warring ideologies. Remain and Leave are just the easily-applied labels to increasingly opposed sets of values that have become more entrenched across society.

Bigger vs smaller government
Safer regulated society vs personal freedoms
Cultural evolution vs adherence to traditions
More open borders vs controlled populations
Supra-national organisations vs local oversight
Multiculturalism vs ethnostates
Etc...

How do you propose compromise when it's not just minor areas of disagreement but diametrically opposed views on how the entire world should function?

[gamble]

Is there such a thing as a Cold Civil War?

[No666]

A compromise (towards the Brexity end of the scale) is precisely what Parliament is rejecting. The options have to be put to the people and the young (generalisation though it may be) have to get out to vote, if they feel strongly about Remain.

[Yosser0_0]

Christ on a bike how many old people do you think there are in this country 17+ million is it?

Sick of the need to blame one section of society wake up will ya all ages and gender voted for it sadly not just the over 65's in this country this need to aportion blame rather than deal with the reasons for them voting for it and working on answering their problems is exactly why this bloody country is so toxic right now.

I think you also need to move away from the notion that anyone who voted to leave is a moron as again if you dont listen to them you cannot hope to resolve their attitudes .
towards the E.U.

Just for reference i voted to remain as did most of my over 65 friends ( anecdotal i know but its a funny old world)

I agree with this, there hasn't been enough open and honest discussions on issues such as sovereignty, single currency, the cost of the EU parliament and what seems to be the most important issue - immigration. Any discussion on immigration immediately seems to escalate into racism accusations, but what are the actual figures? Let's see them, is there a genuine concern here, if so what are the reasons? I've heard Leaver's say that the population is getting too high and this has led to an excessive requirement to build more houses and more pressure on the NHS. Is this due to immigration? What are the figures, I know that the NHS is hugely reliant on foreign medical staff and this is sold as a positive, but is that a good place to be in if your own people are not developing skills? I really don't know enough about this area, I've debated with Leaver's in other areas where I've had access to facts and figures and I have been listened to.

For Remainer's to simply dismiss all Leaver's as old stupid racists isn't helping the debate, in fact it makes the Remainer's look equally as stupid and arrogant. Yes there are some Leaver's who are hard liner's but equally there are many who are open to a debate and a discussion and can be influenced, after all the less hard liner's were influenced in 2016 weren't they? Remainer's need to sell things like FOM and back it up with figures if they can and also acknowledge the negatives of the EU, it isn't a panacea to solve every problem, if it was then there wouldn't be any debate in the first place. 

[TepidT2O]

Yep, I do agree. Geoff is right.

Then again, I suspect that the reasons people want to leave the EU are not necessarily anything to actually do with the EU.

Looking at leave areas, it might be more of an issue of disillusionment, a feeling of abandonment and a lack of hope. The areas voting leave also have by far the worst outcomes for school children.

Something else going on other than the EU I would suggest

[ShakaHislop]

I agree with this, there hasn't been enough open and honest discussions on issues such as sovereignty, single currency, the cost of the EU parliament and what seems to be the most important issue - immigration. Any discussion on immigration immediately seems to escalate into racism accusations, but what are the actual figures? Let's see them, is there a genuine concern here, if so what are the reasons? I've heard Leaver's say that the population is getting too high and this has led to an excessive requirement to build more houses and more pressure on the NHS. Is this due to immigration? What are the figures, I know that the NHS is hugely reliant on foreign medical staff and this is sold as a positive, but is that a good place to be in if your own people are not developing skills? I really don't know enough about this area, I've debated with Leaver's in other areas where I've had access to facts and figures and I have been listened to.

For Remainer's to simply dismiss all Leaver's as old stupid racists isn't helping the debate, in fact it makes the Remainer's look equally as stupid and arrogant. Yes there are some Leaver's who are hard liner's but equally there are many who are open to a debate and a discussion and can be influenced, after all the less hard liner's were influenced in 2016 weren't they? Remainer's need to sell things like FOM and back it up with figures if they can and also acknowledge the negatives of the EU, it isn't a panacea to solve every problem, if it was then there wouldn't be any debate in the first place.

Because Leavers never produce such figures, so in the absence of fact, why else would you be against the current immigration laws unless you are a bigot. The burden is on Leavers to make their case to people like me that immigration is genuinely the problem they make it out to be and yet, nothing.

Your line about the EU not being a panacea is a fucking lame one, to be blunt. I've never seen a Remain voter claim the EU is perfect because it's a redundant argument. Nothing is perfect (or rather, you can never please everyone all of the time) yet supporters of political parties or sides in other debates are never expected to preface whatever they are about to say with "well, Labour/the Conservative party/remaining a part of the UK isn't perfect, but..." like Remainers are expected to. It's like Remainers are docked points for the audacity to be enthusiastic about EU membership.

[ShakaHislop]

Yep, I do agree. Geoff is right.

Then again, I suspect that the reasons people want to leave the EU are not necessarily anything to actually do with the EU.

Looking at leave areas, it might be more of an issue of disillusionment, a feeling of abandonment and a lack of hope. The areas voting leave also have by far the worst outcomes for school children.

Something else going on other than the EU I would suggest

This, and the responsibility for such disillusionment lies at the door of UK parties. That includes both the Labour of Blair and the Labour of Corbyn.

[Mutton Geoff]

No one has ever said that all old people voted for Brexit.

The fact is a large majority did though. That does not mean people are casting aspersions on you.

i am not bothered about me i dont like lazy approximations of blame when people need to look deeper into the factors that made people opt to leave .

[oldfordie]

That's because they wanted to watch the Tories fuck up Brexit and give themselves a pathway to power, party interests before country. The thing is that they didn't really think it through as they can't sit on the sidelines forever and at some point Labour would have been dragged into it anyway and would also have had to take responsibility for Brexit. Its come to the point where the Labour party are also being badly damaged by Brexit, despite their claims, it is no longer just a 'Tory Brexit mess'.

Am sure Corbyn did want the Tories to f.. up badly but the fact Corbyns first reaction to the ref result was calling art 50 to be triggered showed he looked at Brexit positively, he sacked Hillary Ben 2 days after and sent out a statement telling Labour voters to remain positive about our future outside the EU.
Corbyn was no different to any of the other leave MPs, had formed many opinions on why he hates the EU over many years but never gave much thought to why the EU have to have these rules and regulations, the implications and problems of leaving the EU were not fully understood.
I think where we are today can be traced back to the months following the referendum, I honestly can't think of 1 argument the Labour leadership made to influence public opinion. I can think of quiet a few massive points the hard right won to move this country to the hard right, to put this country on course for a hard Brexit. Corbyns Labour are now arguing they will unite the country in hope not fear. does he realize he has played a part in splitting this country, the country would be in a even worse state if it wasn't for a few brave MPs telling the truth. the people of this country had to educate themselves on the implications of leaving the EU. I dread to think what would have happened if this was left up to the Labour leadership. the whole country would be screaming for a no deal. Labour should have fought the hard right, they should have exposed the lies that radicalised people to support right wing parties, history tells us it's too late to try and win them over to compromise once the hard right parties have won them over.

[Mutton Geoff]

This, and the responsibility for such disillusionment lies at the door of UK parties. That includes both the Labour of Blair and the Labour of Corbyn.

Totally correct

this problem of disenfranchising whole sections in society and pitting one against another started in ernest with Thatcher and it has never really been addressed by any leadership since , we had the private sector against the public sector we had the stigmatisation of the vulnerable and disabled as well just before Brexit, we had the constant use of many shit decisions by any government being sold to the country as well the E U made us do this.

[ShakaHislop]

Len will be unhappy with this.

"We could be the first casualty of Brexit - but I doubt we'll be the last." Martin Forster from Unite Scunthorpe Steel Works says Brexit "could cost this business its future".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1130909022960455689

[Machae]

Scunthorpe voted overwhelmingly Leave in the referendum

[IgorBobbins]

It's one thing to empathise with those who voted to leave 3 years ago.  To try to understand and defend their reasons.

But it's another thing to defend those who continue to support leaving now, even after the hugely detrimental impacts continue to be laid bare.  I find it baffling.

[Andy]

Scunthorpe voted overwhelmingly Leave in the referendum

"for richer or for poorer"... 

[Yorkykopite]

"Mr Francois ... suggested the public increasingly backed leaving with a deal and trading with the EU using World Trade Organization rules."

That's a misprint by the BBC. From the rest of article it's clear that Francoise means "without a deal" not "with".

It's bollocks of course. And the only way Francois can know that for sure is to test it in a Referendum.

[KurtVerbose]

Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?

How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.

[filopastry]

Some rumblings that there may be another attempt to force May out coming.

[Mutton Geoff]

Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?

How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.

this is because she has nothing left to offer now.

[Zeb]

Elmo will be happy to hear that Mundell is demanding a meeting today because May confirmed that, yes, Parliament could amend the WAB to include a referendum. Descriptions of observable reality triggering such anger is what Brexit is all about, I suppose.

Question is whether May will survive the cabinet telling her she needs to go and, if she does, whether the 1922 then force a leadership election by rewriting their own rules to get rid of her.

Not sure why they don't wait a couple more days myself. Let May take the blame for the results.

[TheShanklyGates]

Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?

How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.

Her thought process for a long time now has been nothing more sophisticated than 'what should I do to ensure I'm still PM this time tomorrow'. Looks like she's finally running out of road to kick the can down.

[Elmo!]

Elmo will be happy to hear that Mundell is demanding a meeting today because May confirmed that, yes, Parliament could amend the WAB to include a referendum. Descriptions of observable reality triggering such anger is what Brexit is all about, I suppose.

Yes, he fears it will set a precedent for a second indyref.

It also of course would set a precedent for a confirmatory vote on outcome of negotiations between Scottish Government and Westminster so I'm not so sure it is such a bad thing for unionists.

[Circa1892]

I wonder what politics was like before it was a grand procession of May trying to sell the same thing, Corbyn going off on a long speech ending with "GIVE ME A GENERAL ELECTION" - May then being savaged by what are notionally her own MPs, nothing happening and then the clock slowly ticking down. What did they even used to do...

[ShakaHislop]

I am told that the pizza club of Brexiter cabinet ministers, led by @andrealeadsom, are telling PM she must pull the Withdrawal Agreement Bill vote. Which @theresa_may may think is a bit rich, since it was Leadsom who led charge for the vote to be brought forward. But one...

pizza club minister says that the speech the PM gave yesterday on the WAB, which Brexiters see as paving the way for customs union membership and a referendum, was not what they thought they had agreed in cabinet!

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1131206988199809029

[Zeb]

Yes, he fears it will set a precedent for a second indyref.

It also of course would set a precedent for a confirmatory vote on outcome of negotiations between Scottish Government and Westminster so I'm not so sure it is such a bad thing for unionists.

Yeah. It's just a really weird position to take that saying "yes, the government will legislate for something Parliament votes for" is beyond the pale. I do see the point on precedent, goes to the discussion on 'red lines' vanishing we had on here yesterday, just wondering what Mundell would expect to happen in his counterfactual because if there's votes to support it then there'll be votes to take the decision out of the government's hands anyway.

[ShakaHislop]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1131206988199809029

And more detail on the 2nd ref row. Cabinet angry cos they understood there would be a debate on a 2nd ref while making it clear it was not govt policy and there would be nothing on face of bill about 2nd ref. What they got was a vote & promise of it being put into law if passed

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1131211020091965440

[Felch Aid]

Have a feeling she'll go on Friday after a trouncing with Labour with the euro results and when she withdraws her bill.

[ShakaHislop]

Have a feeling she'll go on Friday after a trouncing with Labour with the euro results and when she withdraws her bill.

The Euro results aren't announced until Monday, I've read so it might be more likely that will be her departure date.

First Mundell, now Javid.

Sources close to Sajid Javid say he has asked to see the PM to push her to remove the second referendum vote requirement from the bill - he believes it is not what was agreed - he is not only senior minister who is v unhappy - situation getting very serious

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1131219945109561345

[Zeb]

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1131211020091965440

Those most keen to argue we have to leave the EU to reclaim Parliament's sovereignty seem the most inclined to want to ignore Parliament as it suits.

[Elmo!]

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Very senior MP tells me the word from the Cabinet corridor in the HoC is that the PM will resign tonight, Andrea Leadsom is poised to resign to launch a leadership bid, others may also resign & David Lidington will take over as acting PM. Unconfirmed!

[killer-heels]

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Lolz.

[Ray K]

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

24 hours before a national election.  Brilliant stuff, geniuses.

[ShakaHislop]

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Leadsom doesn't need to resign to launch a leadership bid, does she? Seems an oddly unnecessary move. At least if she doesn't win the leadership contest, she's still in Cabinet unless the new leader sacks her (which I imagine is unlikely as he/she will likely want Brexiteers around them)

[Red-Soldier]

https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Frottage has played a blinder here.

It's exactly what the far-right nutters wanted.

The man is shaping British politics at the moment and is being helped by a bunch of incompetent pricks!

[Ray K]

Leadsom doesn't need to resign to launch a leadership bid, does she? Seems an oddly unnecessary move. At least if she doesn't win the leadership contest, she's still in Cabinet unless the new leader sacks her (which I imagine is unlikely as he/she will likely want Brexiteers around them)

Imagine thinking that Andrea fucking Leadsom is the answer to any question other than 'Name one of the ten people least qualified to be PM?'.

As Malcolm Tucker would say 'She's so dense that light bends around her'