Topic: Jordan Henderson

[Sangria]

ok no problem with that but where is stevie going on the right as well, otherwise getting crowded in the hole ( to coin a phrase)

A 4231 distribution of duties. Back 4, with 2 CMs who do the link up and defensive work as well as possible. 3 forward type players behind a point man. The 3's job is to play in the area between the lines, attacking what another poster calls area 14. The 1's job is to occupy the opposition back 4.

With Lucas and Gerrard out, Spearing and Henderson are the only players who can remotely do the duties of the 2. Even if Gerrard were back, I'd still play him in the 3. Adam and Shelvey can sort it out between themselves and others who gets a place in the 3 and who gets to sit on the bench.

[babraham]

You obviously put in a lot of effort in typing out that post so I am not going to summarily dismiss it as a load of shite.

Whoever told you passing it first time is the right thing to do all the time?  It's all about timing of the ball release with respect to the opportunities available for a pass. Sometimes it is better to put your foot on the ball and slow it down instead of mindlessly 'getting rid' of the ball immediately as you get it.

One of the biggest myths which is being perpetuated on RAWK , that releasing the ball quickly EVERY TIME is a very good thing in a player. It is not. It is brainless and playing 'safe'.

Short passing and ball retention are important attributes for any player playing in a Liverpool shirt but when you have been brought in at an outlay of close to 20 million pounds(think of the opportunity cost of that 20 million) to primarily function as an attacking player and when all you can do is find a teammate with a 5-10 yard pass , sorry it is not good enough. Nowhere near.

Combine that with the fact that he has absolutely zero ability in terms of defensive play and tackling , rarely shoots or attempts an ambitious ball , has non set piece ability and you have a player who adds nothing to the team any half decent technically competent player couldn't have.

Basically(and I am not exaggerating here), there is no value addition to the team when he is playing and for a 21 year old with two full PL seasons under his belt with a mid table side is not sufficient.

I agree that "mindlessly 'getting rid' of the ball immediately as you get it" is taking the quick passing too far. However I wouldn't agree that's what Henderson does. I don't think he's a mindless player. Quite the opposite actually.

There are occasions where he could perhaps take the extra touch but over the course of a game, not many.

As Roy alluded to though, it's FAR easier to tell a player to take an extra touch than to tell him to take a touch less.

I'm not saying he's the finished article and can't improve his ball usage but for his age, he gives you so much to work with. Physically, he's got everything you want in a midfielder. His passing is very good and so is his touch. If you look at him and see a player with no ability, then I don't know why we're even engaging in this debate. He is a fantastically gifted footballer.

[Sangria]

I agree that "mindlessly 'getting rid' of the ball immediately as you get it" is taking the quick passing too far. However I wouldn't agree that's what Henderson does. I don't think he's a mindless player. Quite the opposite actually.

There are occasions where he could perhaps take the extra touch but over the course of a game, not many.

As Roy alluded to though, it's FAR easier to tell a player to take an extra touch than to tell him to take a touch less.

I'm not saying he's the finished article and can't improve his ball usage but for his age, he gives you so much to work with. Physically, he's got everything you want in a midfielder. His passing is very good and so is his touch. If you look at him and see a player with no ability, then I don't know why we're even engaging in this debate. He is a fantastically gifted footballer.

Henderson has the ingredients to go further with the team. When I said the more Lucaslike players you have in the team, the better each of them becomes, those are the ingredients I'm talking about. We shouldn't dismiss the qualities Henderson has as too unnoticeable. We should look for more players with these qualities, and play as many of them in the team as possible.

[Sangria]

No offence Sangria but I think you're wrong in the sense that I don't see them as like-for-like players. Adam is more of a deep lying playmaker, a bit of an enforcer and a set piece taker. Shelvey on the other hand is sort of on the other spectrum of Gerrardness. He's quick, has lots of agility, plays well in the hole, has a decent finish on him and has great off the ball movement. I'd like to see his inclusion, but I personally see him as a player i'd sub on for Henderson if we wanted some attacking edge. More wasteful in possession, but will get forward and try lots of things, either on the right or in the hole.

How you've described Shelvey is exactly where Adam falls down for me as a CM. More wasteful in possession, but will get forward and try lots of things. Nothing wrong with that in a player. Just not in a CM. Shelvey doesn't belong in CM, and neither does Adam.

[Mutton Geoff]

I would say if we talk about buys this summer he is just behind Enrique and although a free Bellamy,

he has certainly shown more promise for the future of this club than Adam or Downing and although I am hoping he comes good Andy.

[babraham]

Henderson has the ingredients to go further with the team. When I said the more Lucaslike players you have in the team, the better each of them becomes, those are the ingredients I'm talking about. We shouldn't dismiss the qualities Henderson has as too unnoticeable. We should look for more players with these qualities, and play as many of them in the team as possible.

Agreed.

As I said in my first post in here, a midfield of Henderson-like pass and movers would be great.

[Sangria]

Its an excuse, he is a average player technically who has limitations as a player, so because he doesn't do anything out of the ordinary people automatically associate with them aforementioned players, because what he doesn't attempt long passes?

He does the basic things well and, to a large extent, knows what to do and when. Have enough players who can do the basic things well and know when to do what, and the team can do wonderful things.

[LiverBirdKop]

No offence Sangria but I think you're wrong in the sense that I don't see them as like-for-like players. Adam is more of a deep lying playmaker, a bit of an enforcer and a set piece taker.

Adam's a playmaker eh? Ok....not sure why we'd need an "enforcer" to begin with, but he's a poor one because he's always one late tackle from a card (and he's almost always late). In fact sometimes he appears to try to make those fouls as blatant as possible. His set pieces for the most part are poor as well.
I think any big team would hope for a much more talented "playmaker" who's much less of a liability in other areas.

[Fordy]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

Look Henderson is woeful and a waste of 20m. Defend, defend, defend all you want but its a waste of time just all the overall purchase and cost we brought him for.


If he was in centre - excuses, excuses. Seen him play in centre a number on times and he is a 5m player at best.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

ok no problem with that but where is stevie going on the right as well, otherwise getting crowded in the hole ( to coin a phrase)

If Stevie was playing then I wouldn't play Shelvey

[LiverBirdKop]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

And you're sure you didn't have anything to do with that? 

The way you defend Adam, he must be the next Maradona. I'll make sure to keep a close eye on him. 

[Mr Dilkington]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

Look Henderson is woeful and a waste of 20m. Defend, defend, defend all you want but its a waste of time just all the overall purchase and cost we brought him for.


If he was in centre - excuses, excuses. Seen him play in centre a number on times and he is a 5m player at best.

He will be at LFC longer than Charlie Adam.

[۩ Maximus ۩]

He will be at LFC longer than Charlie Adam.

Adam will be gone in the summer.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

he is a 5m player at best.

Not a 7 million pound player?

[۩ Maximus ۩]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

Look Henderson is woeful and a waste of 20m. Defend, defend, defend all you want but its a waste of time just all the overall purchase and cost we brought him for.


If he was in centre - excuses, excuses. Seen him play in centre a number on times and he is a 5m player at best.

Look at your profile picture. That says it all, get your tongue from up Charlie's arse and see the light.

Henderson is better than Adam. Fact.

[Carlito Roberto]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

Look Henderson is woeful and a waste of 20m. Defend, defend, defend all you want but its a waste of time just all the overall purchase and cost we brought him for.


If he was in centre - excuses, excuses. Seen him play in centre a number on times and he is a 5m player at best.

You should really post more often.

[gazzathered]

Why not drop Henderson and Adam now, they have both been poor. Play spearing holding with Gerrard and Shelvey in front. At least give Shelvey a chance to impress.

[Carlito Roberto]

Why not drop Henderson and Adam now, they have both been poor. Play spearing holding with Gerrard and Shelvey in front. At least give Shelvey a chance to impress.

Bit weird how he's been frozen out since he played at Villa. Thought he did well.

[rocco]

Can't see Kenny selling Adam in the summer or any of his signings .

[dioufythebrave]

anyone who cant see jordan isnt good enough to start for us yet, either on the right or in the centre must be blinkered,, he loses the ball far too easily, and for someone who doesnt take much risk with his passing, thats a pretty poor attribute to have in your game,

i guess he has shown glimpses of what he can do but certainly not enough, problem is our options to replace him, arent a whole lot better,

[royhendo]

Blah blah I'm right and if you don't agree you're making excuses.

An excuse would presume that there's something to excuse. As for the associations, I haven't seen any on here. And beyond that, what does your post even mean? Long passes... Xabi and Modric don't attempt them? Or... eh? Do you play football with a jingly ball and a guide dog?

[Mutton Geoff]

 

An excuse would presume that there's something to excuse. As for the associations, I haven't seen any on here. And beyond that, what does your post even mean? Long passes... Xabi and Modric don't attempt them? Or... eh? Do you play football with a jingly ball and a guide dog?

 

[BarnsleyScouser]

anyone who cant see jordan isnt good enough to start for us yet, either on the right or in the centre must be blinkered,, he loses the ball far too easily, and for someone who doesnt take much risk with his passing, thats a pretty poor attribute to have in your game,

i guess he has shown glimpses of what he can do but certainly not enough, problem is our options to replace him, arent a whole lot better,

It was probably more to do with the fact that when the new season started, even though Henderson had been bought for the future, there was nobody else to play in CM spot so thats where he was thrown in the deep end. And with Merieles gone and Aquilani not wanting to stay at Liverpool, we had to play Henderson. He should be on the bench but who else is there? Only Shelvey who doesn't have as much PL experience.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Can't see Kenny selling Adam in the summer or any of his signings .

Same here and that would be a mistake IMO

I'd sell Adam and Carroll, Downing can still be of use

[Fordy]

He will be at LFC longer than Charlie Adam.

Maybe.

Difference is with Adam we might make a 1m loss at most.

With Henderson we will make a 15m loss.

[Fordy]

Adam will be gone in the summer.

Bet you he won't be.

None of Kenny's signings including Henderson will be sold.

[farawayred]

Maybe.

Difference is with Adam we might make a 1m loss at most.

With Henderson we will make a 15m loss.

Time is relevant, don't you think? We got Johnson for 18m, if we sell him in 5-6 years it will be for a cut price, but during these years he can help us win things. Your relentless putting down of Henderson and talking up Adam is ridiculous and utterly pointless. It would serve you well to stop bringing players price into performance arguments.

[Aristotle]

Love how most just can't stick to Henderson and have to bring Adam in to it.

After all you would never do a thing like that.

Like in the Charlie Adam thread and again or in the Tom Cleverly thread and the England-Holland thread or use Henderson to defend Adam after the Cardiff game or bring Henderson up in the Spearing thread and again

Sicking how other people can't stop using other players to back up their arguments on a moral high ground like you do

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

Bet you he won't be.

None of Kenny's signings including Henderson will be sold.

I don't see any going. We can justify a slightly larger squad because of Europa and I would expect all the guys on loans to go plus maybe 3 other players - Aurelio for sure, Maxi highly likely and Kuyt maybe.
Of the signings if anyone goes it will probably be Carroll and only if we can get a decent amount on him. If someone will give us 20 million I think we will take it, but if not he will be allowed to develop. There were lots of denials about the Tevez/Carroll swap, but it came from the City end, and my guess is we at least had that conversation if not a serious offer. If so it means Carroll is expendable, but only if it can directly lead to another striker with no major financial outlay.

[Mutton Geoff]

Maybe.

Difference is with Adam we might make a 1m loss at most.

With Henderson we will make a 15m loss.

That wins the most stupid post of the weekend, how much did Jordan cost us Fordy?

[Fordy]

That wins the most stupid post of the weekend, how much did Jordan cost us Fordy?

20m.

How does it?

Point is that we would be lucky to get 5m for Henderson. He wasn't worth 20m to start with. 

[Drinks Sangria]

20m.

How does it?

Point is that we would be lucky to get 5m for Henderson. He wasn't worth 20m to start with.

I might be getting whooshed here, but I thought Henderson was £13m, with add-ons that could take it up to £16m.

[Sangria]

20m.

How does it?

Point is that we would be lucky to get 5m for Henderson. He wasn't worth 20m to start with. 

How much did Shelvey cost Fordy?

(On Adam)
"He's not mobile. He's notoriously been out of shape in the past, and is still not in the best of shape now. His defensive qualities are subpar. His short passing game can be unreliable. What he is said to have, is the ability to distribute it long. And from what I've seen, I don't rate his long passing. What else does he have?

From what I've seen, I'd arguably have Shelvey ahead of Adam even now, and certainly so not far in the future. Much better passing technique, and potentially much more to his game."

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=274720.msg8618077#msg8618077

Was I wrong?

[seyoufboy]

And he'll never be a 20m player. Kenny should sell carroll downing henderson and adam. This must be one of the worst transfer window i've ever seen.

[Fordy]

I might be getting whooshed here, but I thought Henderson was £13m, with add-ons that could take it up to £16m.

No 13m-16m outlay + add ons up to 20m.

[farawayred]

And he'll never be a 20m player. Kenny should sell carroll downing henderson and adam. This must be one of the worst transfer window i've ever seen.

Go have a glass of milk and argue about the players with you kindergarten classmates.

[BarnsleyScouser]

And he'll never be a 20m player. Kenny should sell carroll downing henderson and adam. This must be one of the worst transfer window i've ever seen.

Yeah lets just sell Carroll who's only 23 and was showing significant improvement when given a run of games, and Henderson who's only 21, been a steady if not spectacular performer this season and who is captain of England u21s.

Some of us who are calling for us to sell these players need to pull your head from your arse and see that A.we don't need to sell them and B.we aren't going to sell them.

[liverpooll]

Yeah lets just sell Carroll who's only 23 and was showing significant improvement when given a run of games, and Henderson who's only 21, been a steady if not spectacular performer this season and who is captain of England u21s.

Some of us who are calling for us to sell these players need to pull your head from your arse and see that A.we don't need to sell them and B.we aren't going to sell them.

isn't that Arsenal? Wonder what you make about their same excuses about their young players?

[Sangria]

No 13m-16m outlay + add ons up to 20m.

And how much were Lucas and Skrtel when you argued that they weren't worth their cost and, let's face it, Lucas and Skrtel are not good enough for us? Oh wait, you never made any point about the cost back then, did you? The cost argument only came up when it became clear the performance argument was no longer viable for you to defend Adam. Since that particular angle was no longer viable, you tried a different angle instead, which is cost. And now you're banging that particular drum with glee because it allows you to target Henderson and hence draw criticism away from Adam.

[Renato]

No 13m-16m outlay + add ons up to 20m.

Don't think so