Topic: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)

[El Lobo]

Its sad that foreign players like Torres and Mascherano, who left under a cloud, seem to get the club more than players who were at the club from a young age like Owen, Carragher, Murphy and McManaman but here we are. Maybe the ability to see things from the outside is actually a factor in seeing how special the club is.

[bornandbRED]

Fucked his legend status by saying he was going to sign a new deal to keep fans on side then fucking off to Madrid.

The United move just confirmed it.

Yeah quite sad really as he was a product of the academy and won a fair few trinkets. Almost been wiped out of our collective memories now due to his actions after.

Think he does still genuinely support us but no doubt he’s a bit of an oddball overall.

[B0151?]

Don't see how anyone could have an emotional connection with Torres, Coutinho or Mascherano given how they left

Great players but I don't see them as Reds

Mcmanaman and Owen too (although Macca was before my time but reading about it that's how I feel)

[Red Beret]

Coutinho will be better remembered than Sadio? 

Coutinho will be remembered by the fans forever - as the player whose sale funded the transfers of Alisson and Virgil

Think he does still genuinely support us but no doubt he’s a bit of an oddball overall.

Think Owen has some weird disconnect between supporting the club and his behaviour towards it.  I don't think he ever fully understood how or why he pissed fans off; he's fond of the club but never saw any real issue with leaving to further his career.

Compare him to Torres, who says when he was younger he thought it was all about the trophies - but now his career is over he realises it was all about the experiences, and that his best experiences as a player were in Liverpool Red.

[B0151?]

Compare him to Torres, who says when he was younger he thought it was all about the trophies - but now his career is over he realises it was all about the experiences, and that his best experiences as a player were in Liverpool Red.

I mean, I don't really think that should count for much. Basically he was shite at Chelsea so doesn't have good memories there

[Red Beret]

I mean, I don't really think that should count for much. Basically he was shite at Chelsea so doesn't have good memories there

He won his trophies at Chelsea, which is what he thought he wanted at the time, and what he left us for.

But he knew he was largely a passenger by that point; and again, compare him to Owen, who earned his nickname "medal thief" at United, and was quite okay with it.

[stewy17]

Torres isn't a legend, he was a fling. Same with Suarez really. Dunno what Coutinho would be classed as, fuck buddy for a bit? Not sure he even gets in the top 50 ever.

Gini however should go down as a great, no doubt. The Semi Final goals, the big performances, we got the best 5 years of his life and made him as a player. We got his peak/made his peak. He's been a huge part of the best Liverpool team I've known in my life. If he leaves in the summer then he should go with all of our love and best wishes.

Don't forget that smile, either.

[Chris~]

Its sad that foreign players like Torres and Mascherano, who left under a cloud, seem to get the club more than players who were at the club from a young age like Owen, Carragher, Murphy and McManaman but here we are. Maybe the ability to see things from the outside is actually a factor in seeing how special the club is.

Think some of this is that Torres or Mascherano aren't being asked their opinion every week on BT/SKY/BBC to drive up viewers/clicks. Can't say I really listen to much punditry now but seemed very similar with Keane and Neville expect with their mate in charge it's probably a bit less now.

[kj999]

being a great player does not equate to being a club legend

being a great goalscorer does not equate to being a club legend

legend status is more than that otherwise defenders, goalkeepers and a lot of midfielders wouldn't be recognised as club legends

what you mean to the team and more importantly what the team means to you

what you mean to the fans and more importantly what the fans mean to you

your work rate

your respect for the club

your off-pitch behaviour

your dignity

your loyalty

your soul

if they cut you in half there must to be a liverpool badge running right through you

your pride for playing for the club

your pride at going through the gates

your pride at looking at that 'this is anfield' everytime you run onto the pitch

your respect for the club's history

your sweat, your tears, your blood and your passion

THAT means a legend to me

trophies and goals are the icing on the cake

Absolutely spot on.

Torres was clearly world class and scored for fun. But a legend he is not.
Suarez too.
Both amazing talents but they lacked a lot of what what on your list. (Notably, trophies).

Robbie Fowler clearly IS a legend. He has EVERYTHING on the list. Including tropies.
But even if Robbie had won nothing, i still think he'd be a legend. Maybe it was just because he was the guy i wanted to be growing up, going to school in the early 90s, Robbie was our golascoring hero in a team that, quite frankly, didn't give us much else to shout about.

But then he remained in that team, through the Evans and into the Houllier era, and played a MASSIVE part in 2001... and of course, his return under Rafa was one of the most shocking yet brilliant things...

Anyway, I know there is no debate about Robbie's status. Just eulogising! But mainly to show HOW FAR ABOVE the likes of Torres and Suarez , Robbie should rank (not as a player, as an LFC legend).

Anyway, back on point.

Gini.

He has been the absolute lynchpin of our midfield during the run of success we have enjoyed. Of course he should be deemed a legend. Criminally underrated, if you ask me.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Think some of this is that Torres or Mascherano aren't being asked their opinion every week on BT/SKY/BBC to drive up viewers/clicks. Can't say I really listen to much punditry now but seemed very similar with Keane and Neville expect with their mate in charge it's probably a bit less now.

Yup - that and local lads are held to a higher standard. Torres wrote one article and all was forgiven.

[El Lobo]

Think some of this is that Torres or Mascherano aren't being asked their opinion every week on BT/SKY/BBC to drive up viewers/clicks. Can't say I really listen to much punditry now but seemed very similar with Keane and Neville expect with their mate in charge it's probably a bit less now.

I'm not sure why it matters to be honest.

If your 'job' is to slag off your former team, create certain narratives, in doing so potentially increase 'pressure' on the team and manager and lead a pretty xenophobic narrative on certain Liverpool players then frankly you're a fucking bellend and should be treated accordingly. I'd like to think if you ask Torres/Masch/Reina/Kuyt/whoever their opinion every week they wouldnt eventually start churning out shite like 'Salah has dived again' or 'Mane doesnt go down because he doesnt want Salah to get penalties'

[afc tukrish]

Its sad that foreign players like Torres and Mascherano, who left under a cloud, seem to get the club more than players who were at the club from a young age like Owen, Carragher, Murphy and McManaman but here we are. Maybe the ability to see things from the outside is actually a factor in seeing how special the club is.

Heathen! Heretic! Hieronymous!

etc...

Sanctity666 will be by with tar and feathers, shortly...

[Fromola]

Its sad that foreign players like Torres and Mascherano, who left under a cloud, seem to get the club more than players who were at the club from a young age like Owen, Carragher, Murphy and McManaman but here we are. Maybe the ability to see things from the outside is actually a factor in seeing how special the club is.

I think they're just arseholes to be honest. Robbie and Stevie are spot on.

Players either get it or they don't.

[Chris~]

I'm not sure why it matters to be honest.

If your 'job' is to slag off your former team, create certain narratives, in doing so potentially increase 'pressure' on the team and manager and lead a pretty xenophobic narrative on certain Liverpool players then frankly you're a fucking bellend and should be treated accordingly. I'd like to think if you ask Torres/Masch/Reina/Kuyt/whoever their opinion every week they wouldnt eventually start churning out shite like 'Salah has dived again' or 'Mane doesnt go down because he doesnt want Salah to get penalties'

Being foreign didn't stop Hamann turning in to that. Unless they're offered a pundit job we'll never know, which is good, I don't want them to do it and happier with hearing them be nice very 6 months or when we're doing well. Just think the way being a pundit works now is that you get by on being controversial and generating clicks/views and so ex-players are more likely to turn in to that no matter their background.

[Simplexity]

Don't see how anyone could have an emotional connection with Torres, Coutinho or Mascherano given how they left

Great players but I don't see them as Reds

Mcmanaman and Owen too (although Macca was before my time but reading about it that's how I feel)

Pretty much the same. But I never held any expectation of Torres, Coutinho or Mascherano to be reds. They were here to win trophies and be competitive, and we failed to uphold our end of the bargain so they left which was fair enough honestly. (Applies more to Torres and Mascherano than Coutinho).


Owen especially was such a betrayal because he was supposed to know better.

[Jookie]

Being foreign didn't stop Hamann turning in to that. Unless they're offered a pundit job we'll never know, which is good, I don't want them to do it and happier with hearing them be nice very 6 months or when we're doing well. Just think the way being a pundit works now is that you get by on being controversial and generating clicks/views and so ex-players are more likely to turn in to that no matter their background.

I pretty much think this. It's all part of the game being a pundit, whether you are an ex-Liverpool player, ex-United player or ex-someone else. I don't think you get to be a pundit in this day and age and just speak your own views. I suspect it'll always be influenced by what the TV companies want to hear. Or at least an amplified version of what you want to say.

In that context don't take much of it to heart if I'm honest. Doesn't really cloud what I think though I understand it's part of the 'game' nowadays. A part of the game that probably isn't aimed at the likes of me. Understand that some do take these things to heart and I suppose any player who goes into punditry needs to do so with their eyes open and how this exaggerated version of their opinions may tarnish their reputation somewhat.

[El Lobo]

Being foreign didn't stop Hamann turning in to that. Unless they're offered a pundit job we'll never know, which is good, I don't want them to do it and happier with hearing them be nice very 6 months or when we're doing well. Just think the way being a pundit works now is that you get by on being controversial and generating clicks/views and so ex-players are more likely to turn in to that no matter their background.

Hugely diverting the thread now, but each one of those players (Hamann, Owen, Murphy, Carragher and McManaman) have all been pretty questionable morally before they became regular pundits.

[markmywords]

Being foreign didn't stop Hamann turning in to that. Unless they're offered a pundit job we'll never know, which is good, I don't want them to do it and happier with hearing them be nice very 6 months or when we're doing well. Just think the way being a pundit works now is that you get by on being controversial and generating clicks/views and so ex-players are more likely to turn in to that no matter their background.

Is right

Many people are seen as LFC legends due to not getting full time pundit gigs

Or because they may not have been good enough to warrant a bid from barca/chelsea/real madrid when they were 26/7.

I just try and focus on the good times and Gini has provided plenty down the yrs, essentially whatever he says in punditry, after his career is over shouldn't cloud that

[bornandbRED]

I’d like to think most of our players wouldn’t push the same tired narratives about the club on TV as we see with Carra/Murphy/Didi and friends.

Fowler and Gerrard would never utter a bad word about the club.. even Redknapp is very conservative in his criticism. Hyppia has made a few solid appearances.

Apples and Pears compared to Carra and Murphy who come across as absolute snides. To this day I have no idea who Carra actually supports. I don’t think he does either. Unfortunately some people are just unsavoury gobshites. 

[Red Beret]

Pretty much the same. But I never held any expectation of Torres, Coutinho or Mascherano to be reds. They were here to win trophies and be competitive, and we failed to uphold our end of the bargain so they left which was fair enough honestly. (Applies more to Torres and Mascherano than Coutinho).


Owen especially was such a betrayal because he was supposed to know better.

Well I certainly don't consider Torres a legend, not by the standards of teams past, or our current squad.  We've had some legendary players in that 30 years without a title, but how many of them can claim a legacy?  My main point about Torres was that he expressed remorse and regret over leaving.  Perhaps he looks back on his time with rose tinted specs.

I will say, every time I consider the phrase "Coutinho left Liverpool to win trophies" I smile.

But anyway, Gini - he's great!

[Hazell]

I certainly wouldn't discard them based on the fact they didn't win anything, though I think it has to be a factor as to determining whether they are a club 'legend'.

The fawning over Torres in more recent years has been quite nauseating and small-time to be honest when you compare it to the hatred someone like Michael Owen still receives. Yes, we hate United more than Chelsea and always will, but Torres directly joined a rival from us. Owen joined one four or five years after leaving us when he was washed up, having tried on several occasions to come back here, and when his only other option IIRC was another rival (Everton) or Tony Pulis' Stoke City (who he later joined and had a terrible time at). From a purely cold, professional standpoint, which is what made Owen the fantastic striker he was at his peak, it's difficult to blame him too much for joining them. The same applies to Torres, yet only one is forgiven.

Torres had two great seasons with us, but won nothing and didn't speak particularly kindly about us in the immediate aftermath, while Owen had seven and won four proper trophies, including playing an integral part in one of the most successful seasons we have ever had. Torres finished third in the Ballon d'Or while playing for us - a terrific achievement - and Owen won it. He really helped put us on the map again.

It's entirely arbitrary how many 'legends' you think there can be at a club like ours. I certainly wouldn't have Torres anywhere near that bracket though. He's a good few tiers down. He was fleetingly brilliant for us but, whatever metric you wish to use, you certainly need more than two excellent seasons and zero trophies to be a legend at a club like Liverpool. As for Gini, his game-time and trophies certainly put him much closer in my view. But I don't know if he's been quite enough of an integral part to be put into that bracket either. Probably one down.

I think too much emphasis has been placed on the word 'legend', I don't tend to think of players too much in those terms because it's such a high bar and no one's ever going to agree 100% with who should and shouldn't be.

I guess everyone has different thresholds when it comes to players and how they remember them and that exactly how it should be, how I view and remember our players will likely be different to yours and that absolutely fine. Needless to say my views on Torres and Owen differ to yours for various reasons but that's probably not for this thread.

What I do think is that this squad that Klopp has built is special and it's given me so much joy that every player that's helped us win these trophies over the past couple of years will be thought of highly. In terms of Wijnaldum, he's a terrific footballer and I disagree with you in terms of his importance to us, I think he's been integral since he arrived and is certainly one of the best midfielders we've had at the club since I've been watching us. That he's able to be vital to us in the more reserved position he plays, despite being well capable of contributing more goals and assists shows his ability and his temperament, something which isn't easy to find in a player. I'm going to miss him when he goes.

[afc tukrish]

I think too much emphasis has been placed on the word 'legend', I don't tend to think of players too much in those terms because it's such a high bar and no one's ever going to agree 100% with who should and shouldn't be.

We all dream of a team of Dundee...

[Fromola]

Hugely diverting the thread now, but each one of those players (Hamann, Owen, Murphy, Carragher and McManaman) have all been pretty questionable morally before they became regular pundits.

Yeah, they've always been arseholes. As much as we may have loved them in a Liverpool shirt.

[Bobinhood]

Theres' a very fine distinction as well, unspoken but exceedingly traditional, between a Legend and a True Legend of a club. and possibly even gradations between and below them. The whole retrospective teams are kind of an informal fan hierarchy, which of course also luckily leaves room for great pub conversations and so forth.

A lot of this team are Legends already. Others are still Legendary if not legends, like Origi for example. Mane and Salah are True Legend candidates i think. Henderson may be already hell is a True Legend. Gini's obviously legendary,at least. The whole team will be remembered forever i think. They played so well together and so hard and relentless. Gini was a very major part of the engine room and a big game player without fail. If he goes i thank him profusely for his efforts.     

[Ghost Town]

All this legend stuff is a myth

[jepovic]

I’d like to think most of our players wouldn’t push the same tired narratives about the club on TV as we see with Carra/Murphy/Didi and friends.

Fowler and Gerrard would never utter a bad word about the club.. even Redknapp is very conservative in his criticism. Hyppia has made a few solid appearances.

Apples and Pears compared to Carra and Murphy who come across as absolute snides. To this day I have no idea who Carra actually supports. I don’t think he does either. Unfortunately some people are just unsavoury gobshites.

Which is why they would never be hired to do what Carra is doing. It would be boring, which is the worst fear of the networks. It's entertainment, after all. LFC fans would listen religiously to every word out of Gerrard's mouth, but other fans wouldn't and the ratings would drop. For every LFC fan there are more than 10 non-fans who would rather hear something negative about the club. 

[Fromola]

I’d like to think most of our players wouldn’t push the same tired narratives about the club on TV as we see with Carra/Murphy/Didi and friends.

Fowler and Gerrard would never utter a bad word about the club.. even Redknapp is very conservative in his criticism. Hyppia has made a few solid appearances.

Apples and Pears compared to Carra and Murphy who come across as absolute snides. To this day I have no idea who Carra actually supports. I don’t think he does either. Unfortunately some people are just unsavoury gobshites.

 He's a fan of football type rather than support a club. That comment earlier in the season of "i'd love to see Mourinho win the league again" when Spurs were top summed him up.

[RainbowFlick]

Going to be a huge shame when he goes.

His reliability and flexibility are unparalleled. Yes he might not catch the headlines or the stats but he’s a great professional and for a club that likes to have players who can fill multiple positions, it seems weird we wouldn’t try to tie Gini down in the “Milner” type role. He would do a job for us all around the park if needed. To let Robbo and Trent flourish you need the likes of Gini and Hendo to fill in.

[JRed]

Gini Wijnaldum and Sadio Mane are Liverpool legends.

Fernando Torres and Coutinho aren’t.

Maybe I’m just a dour bastard.

Biscan won a champions league with Liverpool. I wouldn’t say he was better than Coutinho because of that.
Gerrard never won the league...
We have had some amazing players that are legends despite not winning the big trophies.

Gini has been great but every player has their sell on date and I think it’s the right move for both player and club.

[CraigDS]

Which is why they would never be hired to do what Carra is doing. It would be boring, which is the worst fear of the networks. It's entertainment, after all. LFC fans would listen religiously to every word out of Gerrard's mouth, but other fans wouldn't and the ratings would drop. For every LFC fan there are more than 10 non-fans who would rather hear something negative about the club.

Sky would hire Gerrard in a heatbeat if he asked.

[markmywords]

Which is why they would never be hired to do what Carra is doing. It would be boring, which is the worst fear of the networks. It's entertainment, after all. LFC fans would listen religiously to every word out of Gerrard's mouth, but other fans wouldn't and the ratings would drop. For every LFC fan there are more than 10 non-fans who would rather hear something negative about the club. 

True.

If you can't say negative things about LFC, then you can't legitimately say anything negative about anyone else, otherwise it is double standards.  You don't get many Trevor brooking types getting high profile media gigs nowadays.  Slamming an ex LFC player for being negative about LFC in the media, when we are getting stuffed, is not far short of slamming Danny Ings for scoring against us for southampton, it is his job to report on what they see, not to forward the LFC cause relentlessly, they don't play for us anymore.

The day Gini leaves us, he has done his stint

[CraigDS]

If you can't say negative things about LFC, then you can't legitimately say anything negative about anyone else, otherwise it is double standards.  You don't get many Trevor brooking types getting high profile media gigs nowadays.  Slamming an ex LFC player for being negative about LFC in the media, when we are getting stuffed, is not far short of slamming Danny Ings for scoring against us for southampton, it is his job to report on what they see, not to forward the LFC cause relentlessly, they don't play for us anymore.

Yeah, but plenty have said shit (looking at Carra and Murphy here) when we were playing great too though.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and saying things like ''Salah is a dancer'', ''Mane is a diver'', ''Mane didn't want to go down because he doesn't want Salah to take a penalty'' [Carragher,Owen].

[JRed]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and saying things like ''Salah is a dancer'', ''Mane is a diver'', ''Mane didn't want to go down because he doesn't want Salah to take a penalty'' [Carragher,Owen].

It’s as if they are going over the top to prove they’re not pro-Liverpool.

[markmywords]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and saying things like ''Salah is a dancer'', ''Mane is a diver'', ''Mane didn't want to go down because he doesn't want Salah to take a penalty'' [Carragher,Owen].

I don't think it's their role to be constructive, they are not mentors. Also 'Salah is a dancer' wasn't meant to be criticism, I think it was said after he scored a big goal in celebration!!

Some of you appear to have faulty expectations, that clouds your judgement

[CraigDS]

I don't think it's their role to be constructive, they are not mentors. Also 'Salah is a dancer' wasn't meant to be criticism, I think it was said after he scored a big goal in celebration!!

Some of you appear to have faulty expectations, that clouds your judgement

Carra called Kabak out in his first game yet didn't mention a think when an oppo player did the same. He has constantly called out Mane and Salah for diving, when they really didn't, but let others get away with it without saying a thing.

That's not faulty expectations. That's being a twat.

[markmywords]

Carra called Kabak out in his first game yet didn't mention a think when an oppo player did the same. He has constantly called out Mane and Salah for diving, when they really didn't, but let others get away with it without saying a thing.

That's not faulty expectations. That's being a twat.

Again more clouded judgement IMO

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-football-richarlison-hits-back-at-carragher-after-diving-dig-20201130

when he slams other players for doing it  will naturally escape your attention

[El Lobo]

I don't think it's their role to be constructive, they are not mentors. Also 'Salah is a dancer' wasn't meant to be criticism, I think it was said after he scored a big goal in celebration!!

Some of you appear to have faulty expectations, that clouds your judgement

Their role, more so with certain broadcasters, is to toe the party line. And they do.

The argument that certain ex-players who end up the same if they were regulars doesnt fly. The reason these people are employed in the first place is because clearly there is something in their character that suggests they'd be far more open to slagging off their ex-team and pursuing agendas against them. Considering everything we know about Carragher, Owen, Murphy and Hamann its hardly a shock that they've been particularly scathing of us, is it?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I don't think it's their role to be constructive, they are not mentors. Also 'Salah is a dancer' wasn't meant to be criticism, I think it was said after he scored a big goal in celebration!!

Some of you appear to have faulty expectations, that clouds your judgement

I know their role isn't' to be constructive, it's for clickbait, but that doesn't make it ok or excusable, especially as they are former Liverpool players. I don't have faulty expectations, I have objective expectations. For the record I don't watch Sky or any other English speaking broadcasters. I'm pointing out why people are losing respect or thinking less of certain former players now that they're involved in media.

[Eeyore]

Again more clouded judgement IMO

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-football-richarlison-hits-back-at-carragher-after-diving-dig-20201130

when he slams other players for doing it  will naturally escape your attention

The article you have linked summed it up perfectly. Carragher labels English players as clever whilst foreign players who do the same are cheats.