Topic: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It’s like Alonso all over again really - except we can’t get a fee which is shite.

I’d put him higher than Alonso in the all time ratings too - by a pretty big margin. We will miss him big time if he is indeed gone.

Not even,Gini has done a great job for us but he's not a patch on Xabi.

[bornandbRED]

Not even,Gini has done a great job for us but he's not a patch on Xabi.

Not a patch? Alonso might have been the better player but in terms of what he’s achieved at Liverpool? No doubt Gini sits above Xabi. He’s played 95% of games in a run where we’ve been to two CL finals, did 90+ points twice and won the big two.

A bedrock of quality and consistency that even Xabi wasn’t for us. Will go down a big time legend.

[Ghost Town]

Not a patch? Alonso might have been the better player but in terms of what he’s achieved at Liverpool? No doubt Gini sits above Xabi. He’s played 95% of games in a run where we’ve been to two CL finals, did 90+ points twice and won the big two.

A bedrock of quality and consistency that even Xabi wasn’t for us. Will go down a big time legend.

Other players may also have wandered by

[bornandbRED]

Other players may also have wandered by

Not in midfield. The bloke’s been an absolute constant in a world conquering side.

We really do love eulogising players who ultimately achieved fuck all at the club. Torres, Coutinho, Suarez, Mascherano and the likes are mere footnotes compared to the current bunch. At least Xabi won something.

[Hazell]

We really do love eulogising players who ultimately achieved fuck all at the club. Torres, Coutinho, Suarez, Mascherano and the likes are mere footnotes compared to the current bunch. At least Xabi won something.

Not really anything to do with Alonso or Wijnaldum specifically but yeah we do and it's great ain't it? If we only cared about players who won something discarded the memories all those other players gave us, it wouldn't be half as much fun.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Not a patch? Alonso might have been the better player but in terms of what he’s achieved at Liverpool? No doubt Gini sits above Xabi. He’s played 95% of games in a run where we’ve been to two CL finals, did 90+ points twice and won the big two.

A bedrock of quality and consistency that even Xabi wasn’t for us. Will go down a big time legend.

You don't have to sell what he has done for us to me mate but Xabi was a level above Gini.

[bornandbRED]

Not really anything to do with Alonso or Wijnaldum specifically but yeah we do and it's great ain't it? If we only cared about players who won something discarded the memories all those other players gave us, it wouldn't be half as much fun.

Gini Wijnaldum and Sadio Mane are Liverpool legends.

Fernando Torres and Coutinho aren’t.

Maybe I’m just a dour bastard.

[Ghost Town]

Not in midfield. The bloke’s been an absolute constant in a world conquering side.

Other players played their part in that world-conquering side. Maybe if Alonso had been in that exact same team, with the same manager, in the same era and context he'd have won a pot or two more in red as well. The point being a) you can't really compare the two situations as they were not the same and b) why would you even want to? They are/were both boss. Is that not enough?

We really do love eulogising players who ultimately achieved fuck all at the club. Torres, Coutinho, Suarez, Mascherano and the likes are mere footnotes compared to the current bunch. At least Xabi won something.

Yes, exaggeration does indeed happen a lot

[Hazell]

Gini Wijnaldum and Sadio Mane are Liverpool legends.

Fernando Torres and Coutinho aren’t.

Maybe I’m just a dour bastard.

Quite possibly. But I wouldn't call them 'mere footnotes' either.

[Ghost Town]

Not really anything to do with Alonso or Wijnaldum specifically but yeah we do and it's great ain't it? If we only cared about players who won something discarded the memories all those other players gave us, it wouldn't be half as much fun.

Spot on! Big them all up, fucking heroes in red, whether they won something or not.

[Hazell]

Spot on! Big them all up, fucking heroes in red, whether they won something or not.

Torres and Coutinho, among others, gave me some great memories (some of my favourite), and memories are what football is about, I can't understand why anyone would discard those just because they didn't win anything.

[Eeyore]

Gini Wijnaldum and Sadio Mane are Liverpool legends.

Fernando Torres and Coutinho aren’t.

Maybe I’m just a dour bastard.

The thing is in 10 or 20 years time Torres and Coutinho will probably be better remembered.

[Dim Glas]

The thing is in 10 or 20 years time Torres and Coutinho will probably be better remembered.

Only for the way they left.

[CalgarianRed]

Gini Wijnaldum and Sadio Mane are Liverpool legends.

Fernando Torres and Coutinho aren’t.

Maybe I’m just a dour bastard.

Coutinho is debatable, but Torres is definitely a LFC legend. One of the best I have seen in a LFC shirt.
Everything is not about winning trophies, or smaller clubs who rarely win anything won't have any legendary players.

[Eeyore]

Only for the way they left.

I would say it was a case of Gini and Sadio being undervalued by casual fans.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Coutinho is debatable, but Torres is definitely a LFC legend. One of the best I have seen in a LFC shirt.
Everything is not about winning trophies, or smaller clubs who rarely win anything won't have any legendary players.

We're not a small Club and everything is about winning trophies,winning trophies and not crying you way out of the door in January.


Torres will be remembered for being a good player but he isn't a legend.

[amir87]

I would say it was a case of Gini and Sadio being undervalued by casual fans.

Gini maybe, definitely not Sadio.

[vivabobbygraham]

He's got his own song. End of.

[Eeyore]

He's got his own song. End of.

Djimi Traore had his own song tho....

[vivabobbygraham]

Djimi Traore had his own song tho....

And? What you saying about Djimi, Al?

[Eeyore]

And? What you saying about Djimi, Al?

That he will be but a mere footnote in our history.

[jepovic]

Djimi Traore had his own song tho....

And a CL title! He actually made some crucial contributions in that final.

Gini has had an outstanding time at Liverpool. Not sure if I would call him a legend, for me that term is used for the likes of Gerrard, but that doesn't really matter. Gini has been an important part of our success, and this season he has been part of our problem. We need to get younger players into our ageing midfield, and LFC would probably rather spend that money on someone like Curtis Jones. Getting old sucks 

[aw1991]

We really do love eulogising players who ultimately achieved fuck all at the club. Torres, Coutinho, Suarez, Mascherano and the likes are mere footnotes compared to the current bunch. At least Xabi won something.

It's not so black and white. I can think on plenty of players who have won more with us than Steven Gerrard, but are nowhere near his legendary status. Suarez as well, obviously not as big of a legend but he carried us at points.

Torres, Coutinho, Mascherano, they might have won fuck all, and the lesser said about how they left the better, but they will be more fondly remembered (by me at least) than some more successful players. They were world class at their best  and deserved to win something with us.

[B0151?]

In terms of being remembered, Gini's part in the win against Barcelona is pretty unforgettable... Surpasses any memory from a Torres or Suarez for me personally, as much as I loved those two.

[Jookie]

Torres will be remembered for being a good player but he isn't a legend.

It's up to any individual who they consider a legend or not.There's no real definition of what it is. Personally I think it's a small group of players who get into that bracket.

IMO there's no way Torres is a legend. He was a very good player but we've had loads of them. The fact he didn't win anything with the club is almost certainly not his doing or a reflection of his ability. We can enjoy and appreciate his talent and contribution without trophies but ultimately I think you need both the talent and the significant contribution to multiple trophies to be classed as a legend.

That's why the likes of Suarez, Torres, Coutinho, Mascherano can't be classed as legends in my opinion despite being some of the best individual players to play for us in the last 30 years. In my opinion (and others will disagree), I think Gerrard is the only bona fide legend from the last 30 years (not including John Barnes in my thinking since his best was >30 years ago). I think you could have an argument to include Fowler, Carragher and Hyypia at a stretch, They've all played at an elite level, for at least part of their career, and contributed towards multiple trophy wins. Though I'm not sure all 3 would have a reasonable shout for being included in our best XI from the last 30 years (Fowler definitely isn't with Suarez, Torres, Salah all better forwards -  arguably Owen too).

There will definitely be players from the current squad who have a chance as being classed in the legendary status (as per my personal definition). I think Trent, van Dijk, Salah and Mane have the biggest claims but a lot will depend on what happens in the coming seasons. That's not to denigrate any contribution by any current player in the squad. All of them, to varying degrees, have been great players for the club and hugely influential in our success. Personally though I view legendary status as that absolute cream of the crop, the players who were the driving force behind the team winning trophies over the course of years and players who you felt were emblematic of the team and club at that point. That's why it's only a select number (probably 20-30 max in ever) who reach that status in my eyes.

EDIT: This is the Gini thread so probably should have said where he sits. He's not a legend of the club in my opinion but he's been so important over the last 5 years or so. In terms of legend status he's much more worthy of that than Torres, Suarez, Coutinho, Mascaherano. Arguably more than Alonso, Fowler and others given his key contributions to both a CL and PL title.

[Bobinhood]

And? What you saying about Djimi, Al?

LEGEND

Picture it. you can actually see the thought light bulb form above his head in real time. He turns. He runs back to the line. Woop CLEARED.

Nothing bad ever happened before or after that. free lifetime pass. It is known.

[Coolie High]

It's up to any individual who they consider a legend or not.There's no real definition of what it is. Personally I think it's a small group of players who get into that bracket.

IMO there's no way Torres is a legend. He was a very good player but we've had loads of them. The fact he didn't win anything with the club is almost certainly not his doing or a reflection of his ability. We can enjoy and appreciate his talent and contribution without trophies but ultimately I think you need both the talent and the significant contribution to multiple trophies to be classed as a legend.

That's why the likes of Suarez, Torres, Coutinho, Mascherano can't be classed as legends in my opinion despite being some of the best individual players to play for us in the last 30 years. In my opinion (and others will disagree), I think Gerrard is the only bona fide legend from the last 30 years (not including John Barnes in my thinking since his best was >30 years ago). I think you could have an argument to include Fowler, Carragher and Hyypia at a stretch, They've all played at an elite level, for at least part of their career, and contributed towards multiple trophy wins. Though I'm not sure all 3 would have a reasonable shout for being included in our best XI from the last 30 years (Fowler definitely isn't with Suarez, Torres, Salah all better forwards -  arguably Owen too).

There will definitely be players from the current squad who have a chance as being classed in the legendary status (as per my personal definition). I think Trent, van Dijk, Salah and Mane have the biggest claims but a lot will depend on what happens in the coming seasons. That's not to denigrate any contribution by any current player in the squad. All of them, to varying degrees, have been great players for the club and hugely influential in our success. Personally though I view legendary status as that absolute cream of the crop, the players who were the driving force behind the team winning trophies over the course of years and players who you felt were emblematic of the team and club at that point. That's why it's only a select number (probably 20-30 max in ever) who reach that status in my eyes.

EDIT: This is the Gini thread so probably should have said where he sits. He's not a legend of the club in my opinion but he's been so important over the last 5 years or so. In terms of legend status he's much more worthy of that than Torres, Suarez, Coutinho, Mascaherano. Arguably more than Alonso, Fowler and others given his key contributions to both a CL and PL title.

I stopped reading at the Fowler part.

[Jookie]

I stopped reading at the Fowler part.

You don't think Fowler is arguable as a legend?

Or you disagree that Fowler doesn't get into our best XI of the last 30 years?

[Simplexity]

The thing is in 10 or 20 years time Torres and Coutinho will probably be better remembered.

Why would anyone remember Coutinho? Decent player on his day but nothing special. Only thing remarkable about him was the fact that Barca decided to spunk 140m on him.

Torres? Maybe.

[Coolie High]

You don't think Fowler is arguable as a legend?

Or you disagree that Fowler doesn't get into our best XI of the last 30 years?

Fowler is not an arguable legend, not one bit, he’s Robbie Fowler 

Of course he’s a legend, I wouldn’t put him in our best XI but his affinity with us as fans goes way beyond just football anyways.. Even just judging on football he is still the player who scored 30 goals 3 seasons in a row as a 18-21 year old.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Torres and Coutinho, among others, gave me some great memories (some of my favourite), and memories are what football is about, I can't understand why anyone would discard those just because they didn't win anything.

I certainly wouldn't discard them based on the fact they didn't win anything, though I think it has to be a factor as to determining whether they are a club 'legend'.

The fawning over Torres in more recent years has been quite nauseating and small-time to be honest when you compare it to the hatred someone like Michael Owen still receives. Yes, we hate United more than Chelsea and always will, but Torres directly joined a rival from us. Owen joined one four or five years after leaving us when he was washed up, having tried on several occasions to come back here, and when his only other option IIRC was another rival (Everton) or Tony Pulis' Stoke City (who he later joined and had a terrible time at). From a purely cold, professional standpoint, which is what made Owen the fantastic striker he was at his peak, it's difficult to blame him too much for joining them. The same applies to Torres, yet only one is forgiven.

Torres had two great seasons with us, but won nothing and didn't speak particularly kindly about us in the immediate aftermath, while Owen had seven and won four proper trophies, including playing an integral part in one of the most successful seasons we have ever had. Torres finished third in the Ballon d'Or while playing for us - a terrific achievement - and Owen won it. He really helped put us on the map again.

It's entirely arbitrary how many 'legends' you think there can be at a club like ours. I certainly wouldn't have Torres anywhere near that bracket though. He's a good few tiers down. He was fleetingly brilliant for us but, whatever metric you wish to use, you certainly need more than two excellent seasons and zero trophies to be a legend at a club like Liverpool. As for Gini, his game-time and trophies certainly put him much closer in my view. But I don't know if he's been quite enough of an integral part to be put into that bracket either. Probably one down.

[kloppismydad]

The thing is in 10 or 20 years time Torres and Coutinho will probably be better remembered.

Coutinho will be better remembered than Sadio? 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Fowler is not an arguable legend, not one bit, he’s Robbie Fowler 

Of course he’s a legend, I wouldn’t put him in our best XI but his affinity with us as fans goes way beyond just football anyways.. Even just judging on football he is still the player who scored 30 goals 3 seasons in a row as a 18-21 year old.

Fowler is definitely a legend. He's about level with Owen in terms of contribution, but without the tarring of joining United. It's not Fowler's fault that he had Razor Ruddock and Phil Babb playing behind him at his peak either. Him and McManaman, just like Gerrard and Owen after them, contributed more than enough towards winning a league title had the platform been properly structured around them on and off the pitch.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

There will definitely be players from the current squad who have a chance as being classed in the legendary status (as per my personal definition). I think Trent, van Dijk, Salah and Mane have the biggest claims but a lot will depend on what happens in the coming seasons. That's not to denigrate any contribution by any current player in the squad. All of them, to varying degrees, have been great players for the club and hugely influential in our success. Personally though I view legendary status as that absolute cream of the crop, the players who were the driving force behind the team winning trophies over the course of years and players who you felt were emblematic of the team and club at that point. That's why it's only a select number (probably 20-30 max in ever) who reach that status in my eyes.

Not Henderson mate? I think most of us have all had doubts about his ability at some point down the years but it's hard to doubt his contribution to this team as a driving force in terms of his leadership.

[Jookie]

Fowler is not an arguable legend, not one bit, he’s Robbie Fowler 

Of course he’s a legend, I wouldn’t put him in our best XI but his affinity with us as fans goes way beyond just football anyways.. Even just judging on football he is still the player who scored 30 goals 3 seasons in a row as a 18-21 year old.

Like I said in my original post it's arbitrary and a personal opinion what you class as a legend of the club.

I was a STH during Fowler's time at the club and for 3 seasons he was brilliant. He was let down by the team and then subsequently, through injuries, by his body. I said he was an arguably a legend and a lot of that is due to his ability over a 3-4 year period and the affinity he had with the crowd.

As  player he does have some significant question marks about how good he was. His record in European competition is average, as is his international record. He had a very good domestic goal scoring record when the league was the poorest standard it's been over the last 30 years (from about 1990 to 1997). Injuries meant he couldn't really test himself at his peak whilst the league got a lot stronger in the late 90's and early 00's.

Like I said I think he's borderline on the legend status for me. Partly because his peak was short and he was never the main player in a trophy winning team. He was a brilliant player though and could have been one of the best if he could have carried his record from the 1st 3 seasons into later seasons at what would have arguably been a higher level.

[bornandbRED]

Talking of Owen... I think he would absolutely have been a legend had he not gone to Man Utd. He was the club’s talisman in the early 2000s. Probably my favourite player from 99-04.

[CraigDS]

Talking of Owen... I think he would absolutely have been a legend had he not gone to Man Utd. He was the club’s talisman in the early 2000s. Probably my favourite player from 99-04.

Fucked his legend status by saying he was going to sign a new deal to keep fans on side then fucking off to Madrid.

The United move just confirmed it.

[Ghost Town]

Why would anyone remember Coutinho? Decent player on his day but nothing special. Only thing remarkable about him was the fact that Barca decided to spunk 140m on him.

[liverbloke]

being a great player does not equate to being a club legend

being a great goalscorer does not equate to being a club legend

legend status is more than that otherwise defenders, goalkeepers and a lot of midfielders wouldn't be recognised as club legends

what you mean to the team and more importantly what the team means to you

what you mean to the fans and more importantly what the fans mean to you

your work rate

your respect for the club

your off-pitch behaviour

your dignity

your loyalty

your soul

if they cut you in half there must to be a liverpool badge running right through you

your pride for playing for the club

your pride at going through the gates

your pride at looking at that 'this is anfield' everytime you run onto the pitch

your respect for the club's history

your sweat, your tears, your blood and your passion

THAT means a legend to me

trophies and goals are the icing on the cake

[Jookie]

Not Henderson mate? I think most of us have all had doubts about his ability at some point down the years but it's hard to doubt his contribution to this team as a driving force in terms of his leadership.

Should have included Henderson.

In the long run this current squad has more players likely to be classed as a club legend than all the other squads from the last 20-30 years put together.