Author Topic: Lawless Liverpool?  (Read 184108 times)

Offline HomesickRed

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #840 on: August 26, 2022, 11:17:45 am »
Spot on. You cannot source charlie, E or speed etc responsibly. The profits goes directly to the type of person who had Olivia killed. Think about that. I'm no angel, Ive taken all sorts, mainly speed as Im a northern souler,  but not for past 30+yrs. When youre a yoof, you dont think of things like this. Its just a laugh with yer mates or a tool to keep dancing. But ultimately this is what can happen. Technically drugs payed for Olivias death. Horrible to think of it like this.


That is exactly how I explained drugs to my kids. I can't look over their shoulders and rank all the substances they might abuse their bodies with on a scale of 1 to 10, but I can explain to them that their is no point being an eco warrior or sipping on Fair Trade lattes when the stuff they are snorting or injecting comes to them via a road literally dripping in blood and misery.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #841 on: August 26, 2022, 11:19:42 am »
Spot on. You cannot source charlie, E or speed etc responsibly. The profits goes directly to the type of person who had Olivia killed. Think about that. I'm no angel, Ive taken all sorts, mainly speed as Im a northern souler,  but not for past 30+yrs. When youre a yoof, you dont think of things like this. Its just a laugh with yer mates or a tool to keep dancing. But ultimately this is what can happen. Technically drugs payed for Olivias death. Horrible to think of it like this.

Agree but it's the drug policy that's so corrosive as well. The war on drugs has been such a disaster, worse than alcohol prohibition in America 100 years ago for the effects it's had.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #842 on: August 26, 2022, 11:26:28 am »
Agree but it's the drug policy that's so corrosive as well. The war on drugs has been such a disaster, worse than alcohol prohibition in America 100 years ago for the effects it's had.

It´s pretty difficult to explain that to these though. I´ve given up.

Drugs are bad, ergo they should be banned, the negative consequences of prohibition will be avoided if everyone just stops taking drugs, seems to be the basic logic.

Obviously that has been working brilliantly these last 50 years. If it´s broke, don´t fix it (did I get that one right?!)!!

That is exactly how I explained drugs to my kids. I can't look over their shoulders and rank all the substances they might abuse their bodies with on a scale of 1 to 10, but I can explain to them that their is no point being an eco warrior or sipping on Fair Trade lattes when the stuff they are snorting or injecting comes to them via a road literally dripping in blood and misery.

There´s a few things I´d be more concerned about if I knew my kids were injecting...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 11:57:38 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #843 on: August 26, 2022, 11:46:42 am »
Exactly what I thought too. It’s horrific whatever the age but maybe easier to process it being a young lad somehow. 36?

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*his life sentence. Embarassing is far too mild. Loser is far too mild.

Offline TheKid.

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #844 on: August 26, 2022, 12:05:31 pm »
Unpopular view perhaps, but exclusion merely makes the problem worse. Sometimes school is the only stable thing in their lives, attempting to put help in place.  Kicking them out onto the streets means they have nothing in their lives.

I agree. It’s a balancing act though between looking after the welfare and safety of an individual pupil vs that of the rest of the school

Offline Fromola

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #845 on: August 26, 2022, 12:54:33 pm »
It´s pretty difficult to explain that to these though. I´ve given up.

Drugs are bad, ergo they should be banned, the negative consequences of prohibition will be avoided if everyone just stops taking drugs, seems to be the basic logic.

Obviously that has been working brilliantly these last 50 years. If it´s broke, don´t fix it (did I get that one right?!)!!

Definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

You're not going to stop so many people taking drugs, whether you ask nicely or not. No more than you'd stop people having a bevy if alcohol was banned. Get them out the hands of organised crime.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #846 on: August 26, 2022, 12:56:23 pm »
Unpopular view perhaps, but exclusion merely makes the problem worse. Sometimes school is the only stable thing in their lives, attempting to put help in place.  Kicking them out onto the streets means they have nothing in their lives.

Bring back borstals?
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #847 on: August 26, 2022, 01:01:38 pm »
Definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

You're not going to stop so many people taking drugs, whether you ask nicely or not. No more than you'd stop people having a bevy if alcohol was banned. Get them out the hands of organised crime.

The glamour of illegality would soon go if you could buy from Home and Bargain.

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #848 on: August 26, 2022, 01:27:51 pm »
Hopefully he rots, slowly and painfully, before he even gets there.

If not, then in prison.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #849 on: August 26, 2022, 01:32:59 pm »
Permanently excluding people is extremely difficult to do. Working in a school I’ve seen tons of incidents / patterns of behaviour that feel like the kid should be excluded, but it just isn’t how it works sadly
How things work should change then, the problem I see is young kids going unpunished.  this is about Psychology, how kids who go unpunished can grow up to be psychopaths.
What does pattern of behaviour actually mean? I would assume it means they have done something bad, attacked other pupils physically, bullied them to the point of making their lives hell. so they get a warning but they have no respect for the warning and continue being predators. this becomes a part of their personality when they grow up and we all live with the consequences.
I know it's easy to just say expel the kids and leave it at that, those kids still need to be placed somewhere but things have to change, we have to make them fear the consequences of unacceptable behaviour from a early age.
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Offline boots

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #850 on: August 26, 2022, 03:20:17 pm »
Theres no magic bullet for the drugs question. But we can at least educate our kids about them and their effects better than we do. But Im a fine one to talk as Ive abused drugs in my yoof, took too many at once and had a rough 48hrs. (5 microdots once and that changed my life a bit) Ive caned speed, E, Booze...because when youre a yoof you are invincible combined with stupid. Now Im not invincible, only stupid remains.

In the UK we seem to want to binge everything. Drugs, booze, wine, tory governments.

Expelling doesnt work either, you just move the issue from one school to another. Again, Ive been expelled. From a really posh public school the council sent me to instead of DC. Shoulda sent me straight to DC. Imagine sending a poor kid from a council estate to a school full of posh kids ffs. I still had my scots accent then too. I spent 3 yrs fighting my corner there before they dumped me.

Anyone from here go to Abbotsholme nr Rocester in 70's? If so Im very sorry.
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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #851 on: August 26, 2022, 03:28:49 pm »
Theres no magic bullet for the drugs question. But we can at least educate our kids about them and their effects better than we do. But Im a fine one to talk as Ive abused drugs in my yoof, took too many at once and had a rough 48hrs. (5 microdots once and that changed my life a bit) Ive caned speed, E, Booze...because when youre a yoof you are invincible combined with stupid. Now Im not invincible, only stupid remains.

In the UK we seem to want to binge everything. Drugs, booze, wine, tory governments.

Expelling doesnt work either, you just move the issue from one school to another. Again, Ive been expelled. From a really posh public school the council sent me to instead of DC. Shoulda sent me straight to DC. Imagine sending a poor kid from a council estate to a school full of posh kids ffs. I still had my scots accent then too. I spent 3 yrs fighting my corner there before they dumped me.

Anyone from here go to Abbotsholme nr Rocester in 70's? If so Im very sorry.
Rocester near Uttoxeter in Staffordshire? Didn't go the school but have some family in Rocester itself, feels quite Tory-ish round there.
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Offline boots

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #852 on: August 26, 2022, 03:33:27 pm »
Yup, thats it.
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Offline gregor

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #853 on: August 26, 2022, 03:54:15 pm »
maybe not directly, but where do you think the money you've paid for the pills goes? Why are these gangs so violent over their 'turf'? It's the money paid for pills and other drugs that fund them and their activities, including shooting 9 year old girls.

Absolutely, which wouldn't happen if drugs weren't illegal.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #854 on: August 26, 2022, 03:54:35 pm »
Theres no magic bullet for the drugs question. But we can at least educate our kids about them and their effects better than we do. But Im a fine one to talk as Ive abused drugs in my yoof, took too many at once and had a rough 48hrs. (5 microdots once and that changed my life a bit) Ive caned speed, E, Booze...because when youre a yoof you are invincible combined with stupid. Now Im not invincible, only stupid remains.

In the UK we seem to want to binge everything. Drugs, booze, wine, tory governments.

Expelling doesnt work either, you just move the issue from one school to another. Again, Ive been expelled. From a really posh public school the council sent me to instead of DC. Shoulda sent me straight to DC. Imagine sending a poor kid from a council estate to a school full of posh kids ffs. I still had my scots accent then too. I spent 3 yrs fighting my corner there before they dumped me.

Anyone from here go to Abbotsholme nr Rocester in 70's? If so Im very sorry.

You are right about UK culture and wanting to binge. It seems deep in the psyche. And the rates of drug use in the UK compared to just about everywhere else in Europe, and even the US, go to prove it.

Problem is, education is also hampered by criminalisation.
 
It is hard for schools to sit people down for a proper discussion on the various dangers of drugs when they are illegal.

First their illegality already makes them a taboo subject in and of itself. A taboo that clearly doesn´t stop people taking them, but could still get a teacher or school into troubles ("Why are you sitting down and teaching my kids about cocaine?!! Don´t you know that shits illegal?!!").

Second the inevitable questions start cropping up ("Hang on sir, so heroin is potentially deadly and can destroy your body and turn you into a zombie, I´ve seen the smackheads down my street. But alcohol can be just as damaging. So how come my Dad goes the pub? And why is cannabis illegal if alcohol is so much worse?? I´ve seen my Mum toke the occassional joint when she thinks I can´t smell it - does that make my Mum a criminal?!") etc etc. And for those very unfortunate kids whose parents do have real substance issues, be they smackheads or whatever, what better way to make an already marginalised kid feel even more out in the cold then knowing that not only do they have smackheads for parents, but those parents are fully living outside the social confines of legality. You can´t sit down and have an honest conversation about the dangers of drugs when they are already operating on a two tier system of legality and illegality, which often doesn´t actually reflect the harm they cause as substances

On that same note, you sit kids down and tell them drugs are illegal because they´re bad. You are  taught all these horror stories about smoking weed or whatever else. Then a kid at some point tries a spliff. "Hang on this isn´t all that bad, certainly not like they made it out to be. So I guess if they exaggerating the effects of this, maybe gary´s aren´t that bad either??").

By the way I am not saying cannabis isn´t damaging. I smoked a lot of it from young age. Don´t touch it anymore, and wish I hadn´t touched it then either. I´ve seen some mates smoke their lives away in a haze. Most others came to the same realisation I did - that it wasn´t doing them much good, makes them socially anxious etc. Generally the ones who smoke and still enjoy it now started later with fully developed brains. Which brings me onto another point. Illegality meant that, ironically, as a young teenager, drugs were often easier to get a hold of then alcohol. My dealers didn´t ask for ID. It was as simple as phoning someone and they´d come and drop it off on your road, or even your front door. Alcohol you´d have to go to the supermarket or offy and stand around until you could find a way to get served. And if you ever did want to ask a teacher or some other responsbile adult a serious question about weed, you wouldn´t dare because, you know, its illegal.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 04:15:08 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline gregor

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #855 on: August 26, 2022, 04:00:31 pm »
Spot on. You cannot source charlie, E or speed etc responsibly.

This isn't true. We already import cocaine into the country completely legally, for medical purposes.

https://www.businessinsider.com/britain-is-the-worlds-biggest-exporter-of-legal-cocaine-and-heroin-2018-4?r=US&IR=T

It especially isn't true in the case of Ecstasy, which could be manufactured industrially. None of this will happen of course, as society still has this weird hang-up about drugs that they're morally wrong, while of course positively encouraging people to get absolutely bladdered on a Saturday night (which I've done countless times btw, I'm not anti-alcohol).

Offline boots

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #856 on: August 26, 2022, 04:07:01 pm »
I remember, and I'm not sure how relevent this is today, when I was studying for my A level Sociology that the lecturer pointed out a rather alarming statistic. She said, there were 300 drug related deaths and 300,000 alcohol related deaths. Not sure which year she was referring to. But circa 1989-1990 ish Id've thought. I found that astonishing at the time. Despite its legality, its fatality rate is alarmingly high.

I came to puff later in life mid 20s. I still do it mildly and responsibly and its sourced responsibly too. I'm a chiller, not a stoner. I need it to sleep to prevent what I call 'kicky leg'. As I drop off my leg involuntary kicks out and wakes me up. This goes on all night. A mild smoke is the only thing that prevents it. But not skunk. That shit is bad news. I prefer hash.

This isn't true. We already import cocaine into the country completely legally, for medical purposes.
Greg, you know the point I was trying to make. You cannot find a local hippy who produces their own charlie or mdma. If you can, then fine. Im happy to be proven wrong.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 04:08:51 pm by boots »
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Offline gregor

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #857 on: August 26, 2022, 04:11:10 pm »
You totally missed my point but that's okay - try not to concentrate on child pornography, the point I was making was that they would concentrate their dealings on other 'ventures' I guess using child pornography was just making a sensationalist point

They would - but those ventures would be nowhere near enough to sustain the lifestyle that organised crime currently enjoys. Some of them may even continue to sell drugs on the black market, but for that to happen they'd need to either massively undercut legal prices like the imported ciggy trade (therefore losing money), or sell a better quality product than is being sold legally. As the product they're selling now is often shit, that would cause a huge drop in profits and be unsustainable. It wouldn't be worth people's while to risk doing that if it wasn't as lucrative, but if penalties for selling drugs on the black market remained high.

There's absolutely nothing that brings in as much money for them as drugs - because they're in huge demand and they're illegal. Nothing else has the same status. Everyone who sells drugs now can't just make the switch to selling blag Stone Island jumpers. If it becomes legal, the trade largely dies.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 04:33:16 pm by gregor »

Offline gregor

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #858 on: August 26, 2022, 04:14:41 pm »
Greg, you know the point I was trying to make. You cannot find a local hippy who produces their own charlie or mdma. If you can, then fine. Im happy to be proven wrong.



Of course, but it could be legally manufactured. We have huge breweries knocking out millions of gallons of beer a year.

By the way - do I think people taking loads of heroin is a good idea? No I don't, and if we had some sensible education about it then we could probably do a bit more, like Carp says above. "DRUGS ARE BAD" hasn't worked has it.

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #859 on: August 26, 2022, 04:30:59 pm »
Theres no magic bullet for the drugs question. But we can at least educate our kids about them and their effects better than we do. But Im a fine one to talk as Ive abused drugs in my yoof, took too many at once and had a rough 48hrs. (5 microdots once and that changed my life a bit) Ive caned speed, E, Booze...because when youre a yoof you are invincible combined with stupid. Now Im not invincible, only stupid remains.

In the UK we seem to want to binge everything. Drugs, booze, wine, tory governments.

Expelling doesnt work either, you just move the issue from one school to another. Again, Ive been expelled. From a really posh public school the council sent me to instead of DC. Shoulda sent me straight to DC. Imagine sending a poor kid from a council estate to a school full of posh kids ffs. I still had my scots accent then too. I spent 3 yrs fighting my corner there before they dumped me.

Anyone from here go to Abbotsholme nr Rocester in 70's? If so Im very sorry.
I think we have to do more than just educate kids on the effect of drugs, we have to consider the sort of situations they are placed in when they start being introduced to drugs, one of the stupidest arguments I heard in the past was, just say NO. absolutely no clue on how a gang of kids talk to each other when hanging out in a park at night etc, peer pressure, you have to give them the answers when they are insulted for being scared for not taking a pill or even worse, goody two shoes is a shit house, scared are yah,  kids have to know they can say they are scared of taking drugs, they know they will probably like it and that scares them, turning into a druggie who ends up looking like a ghoul stealing just to buy drugs, that scares them.

Expelling results in inconvenience, the kids have to travel further to get to school. it also sets a very important example for other kids as this is not just about this particular kid, they will know Schools do have the power to punish them. am not saying this will bring a big change for the good to the behaviour of the kid expelled but it will send a message to other children who could easily follow the same path.
If they are expelled again then bring in further punishments.

The problem now is kids know there's not much adults can do to them to punish them. that results in kids not fearing authority growing up to be adults not fearing authority.
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Offline boots

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #860 on: August 26, 2022, 04:58:58 pm »
Society is the problem. What is it that makes a youngster try herion or crack? What emotional trauma must that person have had to drive them towards this to numb the pain? Until we start dealing with the issues at root, we will always have a problem. There is no need for anyone in this country to go hungry. There is no need for anyone in this country to go uneducated. There is no need for anyone in this country to be denied basic human rights. But these still exist? Why has no political party done anything in the past 30odd years to solve any of this? Why are we still seeing old ladies being abused in nursing homes? Why are we still seeing kids addicted to Class A's and sexually abused? etfookincetera

Its because the current political class lacks either the will or they think it benefits them somehow. I tend to believe the latter as its clear to me the tories are callous bastards. Money and power are all that they are interested in. Greed is the new right wing ambrosia.

We got rid of Boris, but we're being peddled Truss and Sunak. Both are just puppets. Truss thinks shes Thatcher and Sunak has all the empathy of Mr Spock. Talk about out of the fire and into the frying pan.

Nothing will change unless we get off our arses and start making the changes ourselves.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #861 on: August 26, 2022, 05:21:33 pm »
You are right about UK culture and wanting to binge. It seems deep in the psyche. And the rates of drug use in the UK compared to just about everywhere else in Europe, and even the US, go to prove it.

Problem is, education is also hampered by criminalisation.
 
It is hard for schools to sit people down for a proper discussion on the various dangers of drugs when they are illegal.

First their illegality already makes them a taboo subject in and of itself. A taboo that clearly doesn´t stop people taking them, but could still get a teacher or school into troubles ("Why are you sitting down and teaching my kids about cocaine?!! Don´t you know that shits illegal?!!").

Second the inevitable questions start cropping up ("Hang on sir, so heroin is potentially deadly and can destroy your body and turn you into a zombie, I´ve seen the smackheads down my street. But alcohol can be just as damaging. So how come my Dad goes the pub? And why is cannabis illegal if alcohol is so much worse?? I´ve seen my Mum toke the occassional joint when she thinks I can´t smell it - does that make my Mum a criminal?!") etc etc. And for those very unfortunate kids whose parents do have real substance issues, be they smackheads or whatever, what better way to make an already marginalised kid feel even more out in the cold then knowing that not only do they have smackheads for parents, but those parents are fully living outside the social confines of legality. You can´t sit down and have an honest conversation about the dangers of drugs when they are already operating on a two tier system of legality and illegality, which often doesn´t actually reflect the harm they cause as substances

On that same note, you sit kids down and tell them drugs are illegal because they´re bad. You are  taught all these horror stories about smoking weed or whatever else. Then a kid at some point tries a spliff. "Hang on this isn´t all that bad, certainly not like they made it out to be. So I guess if they exaggerating the effects of this, maybe gary´s aren´t that bad either??").

By the way I am not saying cannabis isn´t damaging. I smoked a lot of it from young age. Don´t touch it anymore, and wish I hadn´t touched it then either. I´ve seen some mates smoke their lives away in a haze. Most others came to the same realisation I did - that it wasn´t doing them much good, makes them socially anxious etc. Generally the ones who smoke and still enjoy it now started later with fully developed brains. Which brings me onto another point. Illegality meant that, ironically, as a young teenager, drugs were often easier to get a hold of then alcohol. My dealers didn´t ask for ID. It was as simple as phoning someone and they´d come and drop it off on your road, or even your front door. Alcohol you´d have to go to the supermarket or offy and stand around until you could find a way to get served. And if you ever did want to ask a teacher or some other responsible adult a serious question about weed, you wouldn´t dare because, you know, its illegal.

Cannabis is rancid stuff that messes with people's brain, but criminalising it is utterly pointless (unless you're a drug pusher). Now though you've got the worst of both worlds were people can walk around town with a spliff and the police won't do anything, yet it's illegal and the criminals make a fortune off it.

Cocaine is a filthy habit that turns people into complete arseholes when on it, but criminalising it is utterly pointless (unless you're a drug pusher).

Legalise, tax and regulate them (with warnings all over them as you get with cigarettes) and use the money for mental health treatments and rehabilitation (particularly for heroin addicts, an addiction which used to be treated with prescription before the war on drugs saw the streets flooded with the stuff) . Drug use would likely go down, not to mention murder and mayhem.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 05:35:01 pm by Fromola »
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #862 on: August 26, 2022, 05:21:49 pm »
Society is the problem. What is it that makes a youngster try herion or crack? What emotional trauma must that person have had to drive them towards this to numb the pain?..
...
There is no one magic answer, but this is probably the area that most needs looking into, yes.

With regards to decriminalising, it like Colombia might give it a go

Offline Fromola

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #863 on: August 26, 2022, 05:24:34 pm »
Society is the problem. What is it that makes a youngster try herion or crack? What emotional trauma must that person have had to drive them towards this to numb the pain? Until we start dealing with the issues at root, we will always have a problem. There is no need for anyone in this country to go hungry. There is no need for anyone in this country to go uneducated. There is no need for anyone in this country to be denied basic human rights. But these still exist? Why has no political party done anything in the past 30odd years to solve any of this? Why are we still seeing old ladies being abused in nursing homes? Why are we still seeing kids addicted to Class A's and sexually abused? etfookincetera

Its because the current political class lacks either the will or they think it benefits them somehow. I tend to believe the latter as its clear to me the tories are callous bastards. Money and power are all that they are interested in. Greed is the new right wing ambrosia.

We got rid of Boris, but we're being peddled Truss and Sunak. Both are just puppets. Truss thinks shes Thatcher and Sunak has all the empathy of Mr Spock. Talk about out of the fire and into the frying pan.

Nothing will change unless we get off our arses and start making the changes ourselves.

Heroin addicts are usually suffering from severe trauma, typically emanating from childhood, or complex PTSD. They use it to self medicate, as someone with an anxiety disorder might do with alcohol or weed.

It was more widespread when the streets were first flooded with it (post-criminalisation) because it was cheap and people didn't know how harmful and addictive it was at the time. Same thing happened in America with crack in the 80s as well. It was heroin here. Now it's well known how harmful it is, so its users are in need of serious (emotional) pain relief to go down that road.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 05:31:59 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #864 on: August 26, 2022, 08:27:42 pm »
Young males have to establish a pecking order. In order to do that they have to prove they are either physically stronger, richer or more willing to take risks than their peers. Rich kids usually have too much to lose to take on lawbreaking to prove their status and have things like money, rugger and rowing to help them down establish some status (yes, I know thats simplistic)


Poorer kids have nothing to lose and sometimes poor role models either in their house or within their peer group. Whoever can prove they are willing to take greater risk, most probably in terms of law breaking or supremacy games will be seen as greater status within the eyes of those who understand the rankings. It's biological and is part of how we, as a species, have always been. If you shoot someone you are the baddest (which some see as the best), visibly taking drugs is also part of that culture of rule breaking, it's a set of rules we've all observed but mostly have avoided because we stick closer to the rules of right and wrong (I had my own experiences which helped me understand these rules). The only way to divert this behaviour is put something else in it's place, some see boxing as that alternative, there are other things that might do the job. (I used to work with a guy from the bluebell estate who took poorer kids rock climbing, I could see why). Young females are part of this complex game as well, in a different way, and it is complex.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 11:38:12 pm by Black Bull Nova »
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Offline mikeb58

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #865 on: August 27, 2022, 04:43:11 pm »
 An Applause For Olivia

An applause on 9 minutes at Anfield today.
For the life a young girl cruelly taken away.
Olivia lived just 9 years, hence the minute 9.
A senseless loss of life, due to gun crime.

The murder of a child, the worst type of sin.
À City in disbelief...it hasn't quite sunk in.
Olivia the victim of a shooting gone wrong.
So in what kind of world do we now belong?

A bullet can go anywhere, regardless of aim.
So many people have to shoulder this blame.
Listen to the applause for Olivia from The Kop.
In Olivia's name, this gun culture has to stop.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #866 on: August 27, 2022, 05:08:13 pm »
^ & ^^

Two very different, but excellent posts from BB Nova and Mike.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #867 on: August 27, 2022, 05:26:05 pm »
Been fucking released now. Sorry I've had a few but sometimes you just want someone to take the blame, I know that's not the right way to look at it and you need to get the right person who's commited the offence but it's so upsetting to see this scum still roam our streets and then you think for fuck sake they've been bailed after 24/48 hours...will the police find them...just disheartening.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 05:31:53 pm by naYoRHa2b »

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #868 on: August 27, 2022, 05:27:37 pm »
Released on bail!!!! :o ???

Hope they had their passports seized

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #869 on: August 27, 2022, 05:42:50 pm »
Released on bail!!!! :o ???

Hope they had their passports seized

What? Surely they would have held onto them?
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #870 on: August 27, 2022, 06:09:31 pm »
There’s obviously not enough evidence to charge them but the arrest will enable the police to search their pits and to start tying them down.

That’s assuming they are the guilty parties that is.

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #871 on: August 27, 2022, 06:11:48 pm »
maybe not directly, but where do you think the money you've paid for the pills goes? Why are these gangs so violent over their 'turf'? It's the money paid for pills and other drugs that fund them and their activities, including shooting 9 year old girls.


That's an argument for decriminalisation.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #872 on: August 27, 2022, 06:38:31 pm »

That's an argument for decriminalisation.

not really - read all the previous posts regarding this discussion

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #873 on: August 27, 2022, 08:08:42 pm »
not really - read all the previous posts regarding this discussion

It really is though.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #874 on: August 29, 2022, 09:42:26 am »
I don't think legalising drugs is any answer

Got two mates that were on coke - neither of them with us any longer and both of them died very young.

You can say 'ale is worse' and there maybe some arguments there, but I don't buy it. Their entire personality and their lives changed dramatically.
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #875 on: August 29, 2022, 10:05:09 am »
Why is this so obsessed with drugs when guns are what killed that poor little girl?

Guns are banned too - how do they get into the hands of the public?

No idea what we do about knives though
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 10:06:47 am by ToneLa »

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #876 on: August 29, 2022, 10:30:17 am »


Drugs are bad, ergo they should be banned, the negative consequences of prohibition will be avoided if everyone just stops taking drugs, seems to be the basic logic.


Reminds me of American right wing conservatives chatting shit over abortion.  "If you don't want babies, then don't have sex." There's more than one parallel other than prohibition.
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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #877 on: August 29, 2022, 11:00:16 am »
Why is this so obsessed with drugs when guns are what killed that poor little girl?

Guns are banned too - how do they get into the hands of the public?

No idea what we do about knives though

Drugs are being discussed because their widespread usage creates an environment where people (I use that world in the loosest sense of the word) feel the need to use guns on each other to protect their "territory" or to settle disputes.

You are right that more should be asked about how guns get into people's hands and I guess the main reason it is discussed less is because people simply don't know enough to have anything to say whereas the majority of us have some experience of drug use, whether through friends, colleagues, or personal experience

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #878 on: August 29, 2022, 11:34:16 am »
Drugs are being discussed because their widespread usage creates an environment where people (I use that world in the loosest sense of the word) feel the need to use guns on each other to protect their "territory" or to settle disputes.

You are right that more should be asked about how guns get into people's hands and I guess the main reason it is discussed less is because people simply don't know enough to have anything to say whereas the majority of us have some experience of drug use, whether through friends, colleagues, or personal experience

Exactly.

No one here has at any point claimed that legalisation or decriminalisation of drugs is going to remove all of these issues over night. People here have only put it forward as part of a wider whole.

Clearly, there are plenty of others facets to this in regards to gang culture and people thinking it is in any way acceptable to pick up a gun. The drastic defunding of social services being another important one. Plus a general culture that glamorises these things.


I don't think legalising drugs is any answer

Got two mates that were on coke - neither of them with us any longer and both of them died very young.

You can say 'ale is worse' and there maybe some arguments there, but I don't buy it. Their entire personality and their lives changed dramatically.

I have seen a few people post stuff like this. As if any of us arguing for legalisation or decriminalisation are arguing for legalisation on the grounds of drugs not being harmful. On the contrary, we are arguing for legalisation precisely because drugs are harmful. That seems to be a hard concept for some people

People, such as your mates (and a great many others), took drugs despite their illegality. In fact, the proportion of people taking drugs is currently at a record high. Prohibtion of drugs has seen the usage of drugs increase. But with zero regulation, all of the profits going to criminals, and drugs being more harmful accordingly (criminals aren´t exactly against cutting their drugs with any old shite - in fact it is sort of the modus operandi)

One of my best friends died injected heroin. I know other people who have smoked their lives away with cannabis into a paranoid and socially isolated haze. I have known more then a couple of people who have had serious addictions to cocaine. I also know people who have serious problems with alcohol (family members included), or have had their stomachs pumped as kids. I am well aware of the dangers of drugs. I have witnessed them first hand. The point here is that drugs being damaging or harmful is not a reason for them to be illegal.

I think a lot of people seem to think legality means being able to pick up a bag of heroin in the cornershop. That is not what it would entail, and I have never seen anyone arguing for such
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 11:37:58 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #879 on: August 29, 2022, 11:52:22 am »
Why is this so obsessed with drugs when guns are what killed that poor little girl?

Guns are banned too - how do they get into the hands of the public?

No idea what we do about knives though
Basically it's because drugs drive most of the crime we currently have in society.

Most shoplifting, burglaries, car break-ins are committed in order to obtain money to buy drugs. I used to counsel people whose entire routine every single day of their lives was to wake up, go out to steal from shops, sell the proceeds then score the drug they were addicted to. Day after day after month...

The money to be made from selling this shite to people is insane, so those in that world are compelled to protect themselves and their profits. Turf wars are inevitable and those involved have to show they are more ruthless than their competitors.

Most of us are complicit in all this too. I've dabbled with LSD and Speed in the past. How many people do we see 'powdering their noses' all over the city and beyond every night? How many are sat at home blissed out on pot? How many of us who do just that, then tut-tut and shake our heads when we hear about the realities of the drug industry? The reality is in that world, life is cheap, and all that matters to those grooming people and selling this shit is their own profit. You have to be a sociopath to even get a foothold in the drugs business.

Guns? They come from many sources. Stolen from legal holders. Reactivated antiques or ex deactivated guns from the world wars. Modified starting pistols and blank firing guns. Some are bought on the dark web. Some from American, but most still come via being smuggled from central and eastern Europe. There are also underworld 'armourers' who source guns abroad then hire them out to the criminal fraternity.

Anyway, the bottom line is that in such a vile, sordid business as the drugs world, in order to survive you have to be a bigger psychopath than your competition, and that means a constant escalation of violence. This inevitably leads to more and more of what they call collateral damage. No level of human degradation is too low for the these people. They don't care about society and they don't care about anyone else just so long as they can get to live in a leafy suburb while those further down the ranks are shooting each other over turf and killing innocent children in the process. They're too busy sunning themselves in Dubai to care about any of that.
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