Topic: FSG (*)

[penga]

Woodburn played in 4 cup games (dont know how many minutes exactly) and 83 minutes in the league and Ojo only 2 cup apps this whole season. Welcome to LFC new exciting signing willing to leave his club mid-season and be happy to play that much even with Mane out for a lot of it! Righto...

[ggcc14]

In fairness, I've seen us sign enough shite under the likes of Ged, Rafa, Kenny and Rodgers where we 'needed to plug a gap' and have thus been lumbered with players like Pennant

Pennant was pretty good.

[JackWard33]

again. 

Yes. I have quarrel with waiting. I disagree with it. It was a mistake. It turned top 4 into more of a gamble than otherwise
Not sure why you keep posting what you're posting. You agree with the decision - that's
fine. I don't. Also fine.
And for the record I have more of a problem with not getting more done last summer than in January

[JackWard33]

Woodburn played in 4 cup games (dont know how many minutes exactly) and 83 minutes in the league and Ojo only 2 cup apps this whole season. Welcome to LFC new exciting signing willing to leave his club mid-season and be happy to play that much even with Mane out for a lot of it! Righto...

Yes .... because of playing a new attacking player we've played Lucas in midfield and endless minutes of origi ... and too many minutes of Lallana out of position and klavan at centre back... sorry you're never going to remotely convince me we couldn't get a better player than our back ups

[JackWard33]

In fairness, I've seen us sign enough shite under the likes of Ged, Rafa, Kenny and Rodgers where we 'needed to plug a gap' and have thus been lumbered with players like Pennant and Borini and Kromkamp and Nunez and Itandje, when we could have easily made do with youngsters instead. If the manager is going with that, that's fine by me. The fact that he's saying 'we couldn't sign anyone of the sufficient quality I wanted' sort of stands up with the fact that none of our rivals signed anyone either.

Which of our rivals finished mid table the previous season and had a flat spend in the summer?
(Oh and one of them brought in a player who won them a point yesterday but carry on)

[Ipcress]

Let me see if I've got this correct. Jurgen says the players he wants are not available in January.
He/ the club do not opt for a Balotelli equivalent.
Instead the money is put towards the summer budget when we will have a better choice of players.
At time of writing we are fulfilling our target of top 4.
Our last set of transfers with the Klopp FSG went very well.

And this is evidence of FSG being bad owners?

I think one of the major grating points (rightly or wrongly) is that FSG and Klopp seem to give priority to the medium term plan than a number of critics who seem to prioritise the short term.

[El Lobo]

Pennant was pretty good.

Was he balls, he was average at best and that was a prime example of us signing players for the sake of ticking a box at that time. Look at Spurs and those two French wingers they signed, both absolutely terrible and I'm not sure either has played more than a handful of games. I get there's a clamour to sign players, and I get that potentially we fucked up by not having more reinforcements, but I don't think its that hard to see the thinking behind it from the manager and not just go for the 'bloody FSG cheapskates, not signing the players the manager wanted'.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Let me see if I've got this correct. Jurgen says the players he wants are not available in January.
He/ the club do not opt for a Balotelli equivalent.
Instead the money is put towards the summer budget when we will have a better choice of players.
At time of writing we are fulfilling our target of top 4.
Our last set of transfers with the Klopp FSG went very well.

And this is evidence of FSG being bad owners?

I think one of the major grating points (rightly or wrongly) is that FSG and Klopp seem to give priority to the medium term plan than a number of critics who seem to prioritise the short term.

Nah, that is way to sensible.

[SerbianScouser]

If Sturridge didn't fail us so badly there wouldn't be so much talk about a lack of depth.

Klopp had the right to think of him as a viable attacking option for 16/17 because towards the end of 15/16 (since February) Sturridge scored a good amount of goals. If he only offered that (not even his 13/14 form) we would have made it through that period without Mane and Phil when we really needed someone to give us a good push.

It's easy to criticize with hindsight but it wasn't even that Sturridge had that many injuries, he spent a lot of time on the bench fit and was very underwhelming when given a chance. If Klopp knew that Sturridge was gonna deteriorate as an athlete even furthermore I think he wouldn't be banking on him to be a legit attacking option for us this season and probably look to get somebody in instead.

[KiNki]

Our rivals had either won trophies or qualified for europe.  We failed to do either and were playing catch up.  The onus is on us to do what is neccessary to bring our squad up to standard.   

next year, with more games, we need to have more options, that's clear.

[JackWard33]

If Sturridge didn't fail us so badly there wouldn't be so much talk about a lack of depth.

Klopp had the right to think of him as a viable attacking option for 16/17 because towards the end of 15/16 (since February) Sturridge scored a good amount of goals. If he only offered that (not even his 13/14 form) we would have made it through that period without Mane and Phil when we really needed someone to give us a good push.

It's easy to criticize with hindsight but it wasn't even that Sturridge had that many injuries, he spent a lot of time on the bench fit and was very underwhelming when given a chance. If Klopp knew that Sturridge was gonna deteriorate as an athlete even furthermore I think he wouldn't be banking on him to be a legit attacking option for us this season.

True but we wanted more attacking players in the summer and wanted them in the winter
The question going forward is whether we have the ability to get the right deals done. We've come up short the last two windows - im less interested by wether it's a wage problem or an election problem but it needs fixing

[El Lobo]

If Sturridge didn't fail us so badly there wouldn't be so much talk about a lack of depth.

Bit harsh to just put it on Sturridge, I don't think the likes of Can, Lucas, Origi, Moreno or Klavan have been as good as we'd have liked or even youngsters like Stewart and Ojo would have been expected to play a better part in backing up the first team.

[SerbianScouser]

Bit harsh to just put it on Sturridge, I don't think the likes of Can, Lucas, Origi, Moreno or Klavan have been as good as we'd have liked or even youngsters like Stewart and Ojo would have been expected to play a better part in backing up the first team.

True but if Sturridge just continued to do what he did last few months of 15/16 he would have papered over all these cracks and I think people would actually be praising our depth instead of criticizing it in the sense of 'which one of our rivals can boast having a striker off the bench who has an ability to score 20+ goals in this league'. It's unfortunate we didn't manage to get anything out of him this season.

[PeterTheRed ...]

We might like it or not, but Klopp is not a fan of stockpiling players just in case he needs them, and in this regard he seems to be on the same wavelength with FSG. I often find myself frustrated with our lack of options, especially when we have several injuries to our regular starters, but then I realize that Klopp and FSG have a plan in place, and that this plan is very close to execution.

This summer will be very telling, especially when it comes to our ambitions as a club. We are very likely to have Champions League football next season, and every fan knows that we have money to spend, especially since we had a negative net spend last summer, so I am looking forward to a summer of great investment into the squad. Not necessarily an investment in terms of large number of new players, but investment in terms of top quality talent that will get us to the next level.

[El Lobo]

True but if Sturridge just continued to do what he did last few months of 15/16 he would have papered over all these cracks and I think people would actually be praising our depth instead of criticizing it in the sense of 'which one of our rivals can boast having a striker off the bench who has an ability to score 20+ goals in this league'. It's unfortunate we didn't manage to get anything out of him this season.

It was a gamble, plain and simple. I think people know full well it was, which is why its odd to continually see people putting it at the doors of the owners.

[Beard]

I fully expect them to make a little profit in the summer transfer window. The rumours of a £200m "war chest" are laughable.

[rob1966]

..... you have made my point though .. the idea that there's only the perfect blowjob of an awful diesease ridden one and not lots of perfectly good blowjobs in between is exactly the same as arguing we couldn't get a better attacker in January than Ben Woodburn
Boom. Case closed. Thanks for coming .... I'm off to sleep with my wife
 

But if you've got the money for a perfect blowjob and then spend some of it on a slightly better one than you currently get, you've no longer got the funds for the perfect blowjob when its available 5 months later, so you're stuck with blowjobs that are ok, but don't give you the same oh my fucking god that was brilliant feeling.

[heylookitsjacob]

I fully expect them to make a little profit in the summer transfer window.

Okay, let's all remember this for posterity. You definitely could be right though!

[ToneLa]

We might like it or not, but Klopp is not a fan of stockpiling players just in case he needs them, and in this regard he seems to be on the same wavelength with FSG.

I've always thought that was a big part of his recruitment in the first place.

- Considers his buys
- Develops youth
- Doesn't splash unnecessarily

He fits the FSG model. So I think if you're gonna slate FSG for this you have to slate Klopp as well.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I've always thought that was a big part of his recruitment in the first place.

- Considers his buys
- Develops youth
- Doesn't splash unnecessarily

He fits the FSG model. So I think if you're gonna slate FSG for this you have to slate Klopp as well.

Well, we already know that Klopp fits FSG like a glove. The good news is that FSG will always back Klopp when he really wants a player, and the player is willing to join us. Also, giving improved contracts to all of our players who Klopp sees as long term members of his squad shows that FSG have full confidence in his judgement.

[ToneLa]

That is indeed nice. I know some have grumbled about certain contract extensions, like Lovren most recently, but the fact the manager is behind them is so much better.

Ah but is he really behind them? He SAYS he is but...

I'm happy if Klopp is happy. I don't think he would be capable of hiding strong emotions!

[Day1983]

Straight from the manager's mouth.  He said many times that the players he wanted weren't available.

Oh right do you believe everything that people say?

[ToneLa]

Oh right do you believe everything that people say?

The thing about this defence is it's crap:

1) I do generally find people tell if not the absolute truth then a version of it - but how am I to know?
2) You are taking one example and applying it to everything. You may as well ask a girl if she's sucked every cock because she gave her fella a blowie once.

Let's come back to this "how am I to know?"

The only evidence for Klopp's feelings about that transfer window were what has been posted already.

You can't disprove a negative in logic - I can't prove nothing else was said behind closed doors etc.

That's why generally it's not an acceptable form of discussion, debate or argument. Because in a word - it's shite. You can make anything up and since all we offer is proof you won't accept, you will never be satisfied.

Personally I am happy to live in a world where I believe what comes out of Klopp's mouth. I haven't had the experiences of Klopp that suggest I shouldn't.

And hence there is a gap. Certain things fit to those who need them to. And I suppose, open myself up for being called deluded / wrong / whatever.

[Oberyn_Martell]

Weird ass analogies in this thread

[Redman0151]

I fully expect them to make a little profit in the summer transfer window. The rumours of a £200m "war chest" are laughable.

I agree, people shouldn't underplay just how good of a job Klopp is doing if he manages to get this squad into the CL. Take a look at our spend over the last 2 years compared to the others bar Tottenham

[Oberyn_Martell]

I agree, people shouldn't underplay just how good of a job Klopp is doing if he manages to get this squad into the CL. Take a look at our spend over the last 2 years compared to the others bar Tottenham

Even then we are less than them. There should be at least 150mill minimum to spend this summer + sales

[penga]

Yes .... because of playing a new attacking player we've played Lucas in midfield and endless minutes of origi ... and too many minutes of Lallana out of position and klavan at centre back... sorry you're never going to remotely convince me we couldn't get a better player than our back ups

We couldn't get the right targets/upgrades in January that's for sure. Why did Klopp buy Klavan only to upgrade him half a season later? Doesn't make sense, he was bought as a back up and used when needed. Lucas has been playing pretty well in midfield, don't see the problem he is a back up and doing a decent job of it - more assists now than Mkhitaryan, Carrick and Rashford combined, equal with Pogba and Mata with less playing time than all of them . Origi is a good striker who showed great form last season and at times this season, I'm sorry you don't rate him either. But I'd take him over the likes of Janssen, Batshuayi, Welbeck and probably Iheanacho and Rashford.

You're forgetting the versatility of our players e.g. Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho, Origi, Sturridge - they were rotated into the front 3 before Woodburn/Ojo. Are you saying it's easy to buy someone better than Firmino as an inside right winger or Origi/Sturridge as striker? Because that's what a new signing would have to be better than to get into the team without ever having trained with LFC in January for Mane's 3 week absence. How many minutes did Woodburn/Ojo actually play? Not many. In fact if you said at the start of the season this is how many minutes one of these young players would get throughout the season (a few cup apps and the odd league sub app) most would probably be happy to let them blood in a bit. You don't like Lucas but he is a decent and versatile backup, Klopp rates him. He got exposed a couple of times by pace but largely didn't make many defensive mistakes and was involved in some good victories along the way.

As I said in the January window it can be difficult for so many reasons, it's not nonsense at all, you may think other squads weren't in the same situation but the same logic applies. All of them could've strengthened in January regardless of their squad size to improve their season just like us but it didn't make sense as none of the right signings popped up. Most of them were playing more competitions than us, had suffered some injuries and were below us on the table.

If our rivals have so much better squads why are 3 of them, with good managers, still below us in this moment despite having less or at least a similar level of injuries? Chelsea sold 2 players as did United. Pochettino actually admitted we had a better squad than him after we beat him with our entire 2nd team in the league cup, luckily for him int the league they had less injuries and they managed to override Kane's injury by playing players out of position e.g. Son and having others step up and adapt as opposed to relying the worst backup striker at a top club in the league in Janssen to fire, just like we try when Origi plays central (had a decent patch of goal scoring at least) and Firmino goes wide, there is a drop off but it shouldn't be that significant but unfortunately our whole squad lost confidence in January. None of our rivals bought anyone in January when they had the financial power to do so. Are all of their owners undermining their managers too? The only one that "strengthened" was City with a player they already purchased in the summer (Gabriel Jesus). We maybe could've recalled Markovic for example to strengthen our squad likewise in that RW position but doubt it would've make much difference considering he is less quality than Firmino or Lallana at RW.

[Doc Red]

It was a gamble, plain and simple. I think people know full well it was, which is why its odd to continually see people putting it at the doors of the owners.

Initially, I put the blamem solely on the owners, but I've come around to accepting Klopp should also be accountable.
When you look at this season, we faced a very similar backlog of games in the Dec-Feb period as we did last season, additionally, literally the same players that were injured and unavailable last season have also been injured and unavailable this season with the added caveat that new signing Mane also has been unavailable (injury/AFCON).

The reality is, neither the owners or Klopp should have been surprised by how the season has panned out in terms of losing key players from our core group of 14 players.
If in fact it was a joint decision to only bring in players of a specific calibre and quality and accept nothing less, and to do so only under specific financial valuation models, than I hope both sides have learnt from the past two seasons. It would be completely unacceptable if we go into the Summer window simply replacing outgoing players whilst still maintaining the "sign only players "X", "Y", and "Z" and only if their value stays below "£££".

One of the reasons why there is an hesitancy to trust FSG's transfer model, specifically the valuation aspect of it, is it lends itself to not spending funds due to an arbitrary excuse of valuation. Klopp having his own blueprint of only signing players that fully fit his style whilst also generally rejecting the concept of massive transfer signings, seemingly makes it easier for FSG to position themselves in the "we were completely willing to spend ££££ amount of finances this window however Klopp chose not to.

And whilst we're on the subject of ridiculously awkward analogies on this page, it reminds me of a token few friends that wait until they know you're fully committed to another engagement for the night before trotting out the ol "we would love to invite you out, but it seems you've already got other plans" invitation.

This Summer, I absolutely do not want to hear quotes such as "the player liked London more", or "the valuation was too high AND we couldn't identify another player that offered anything similar". We should have plenty of cash in reserve, what with the accidental profits being made over the latter few windows, and hopefully with Champions league confirmed. Preferably, I'd like to see more incoming than outgoing players, or if the balance is the same than at least 5 quality players that can immediately compete for a starting spot. Starting another season with 8 players or so guaranteed to start regardless of form simply because the alternatives are either too inexperienced, too injured (!), or too "meh", cannot be our modus operandi.

[peachybum]

I agree, people shouldn't underplay just how good of a job Klopp is doing if he manages to get this squad into the CL. Take a look at our spend over the last 2 years compared to the others bar Tottenham

But surely that graphic proves it's not how much you spend it's how you spend. Look how much the Mancs have spent for hardly any real improvement. I couldn't give a shit if we spend £150m or make a profit. It's about who we buy and how they perform. You can spend £50m on Stones or nothing on Matip. £5m on All1 or £30m on Sissoko.

We made a profit last summer and improved the first eleven by 3 players. I'd happily make let FSG make a profit again if they could guarantee we improve the first eleven by 3 again.

Transfer fee's and net spend aren't anywhere near as important as wages anyway. That's where we need to look to see if FSG are investing the clubs cash. And in the last accounts it was 65% of turnover(i think?). You can't argue with that. In fact we're probably spending too much.

[Byrneand]

As I've said before, I think we're actually in great shape and I have sympathy for how the club has been managed.

At the start of every season for Liverpool over the last few years there have been two options:

1) Gamble financially and overpay to bring in upper-mediocre talent who are happy to forgo Champions League and a "serious" shot at winning the league. (That's the sad reality). This in the context that Chelsea, Man city and United, Arsenal and Spurs are always going to be in contention and so chances are (which is shown in our prior year positions) this will not pay off.
2) See if fortune can go our way and we can scramble a top 4 slot.

FSG/Klopp went with the second option and simultaneously did two things:

a) Purged the club of high earning players who didn't fit Klopps team, could be monetised and were high relative earners - Benteke, Skrtel, Balotelli, Ibe, Toure
b) Squad fillers who were never going to make the grade - Illori, Alberto.

This meant he washed his face in the transfer market but also (and I think this is important), significantly brought down the wage bill. Klavan, Wijnaldum, Matip and Mane earn less than the big 5 departures.

Like it or not he's going to do the same this year with Sturridge (still probably one of the highest earners), Markovic, Moreno and Sakho - raise funds and take some high earners off the wage bill.

I imagine the FSG team are jumping for joy that the plan has paid off and the return on investment/capital is through the roof. That's hard for us as supporters to take as in some ways, we'd rather see option 1 taken and at least roll the dice at being competitive.

The transfer activity over the next 24-months is going to shape my view of FSG. I'd of obviously like to have seen them be more competitive in the transfer market and show higher conviction at certain points and so it will be interesting to see if they have learnt from these mistakes.

I think as Liverpool fans we should be looking at this half full. The squad and finances are in a decent position to build on. We have a great manager and hopefully CL football next year.

[newterp]

Screw you FSG. 

(right?)

[newterp]

I love you FSG!

(well maybe just Linda)

[El Lobo]

Screw you FSG. 

(well maybe just Linda)

[newterp]

ok - I actually laughed out loud. 

[Redman0151]

But surely that graphic proves it's not how much you spend it's how you spend. Look how much the Mancs have spent for hardly any real improvement. I couldn't give a shit if we spend £150m or make a profit. It's about who we buy and how they perform. You can spend £50m on Stones or nothing on Matip. £5m on All1 or £30m on Sissoko.

We made a profit last summer and improved the first eleven by 3 players. I'd happily make let FSG make a profit again if they could guarantee we improve the first eleven by 3 again.

Transfer fee's and net spend aren't anywhere near as important as wages anyway. That's where we need to look to see if FSG are investing the clubs cash. And in the last accounts it was 65% of turnover(i think?). You can't argue with that. In fact we're probably spending too much.

The squad is thread bare, one defensive injury from Lucas playing CB, no replacement for Mane. Finishing top 4 would be amazing but if FSG had invested properly then wed be in the title race.

It's clear from watching us right now that the team is running on empty, we're not half the team we were at the start of the season, and this is without Europe and an early exit from the FA cup.

[newterp]

The squad is thread bare, one defensive injury from Lucas playing CB, no replacement for Mane. Finishing top 4 would be amazing but if FSG had invested properly then wed be in the title race.

It's clear from watching us right now that the team is running on empty, we're not half the team we were at the start of the season, and this is without Europe and an early exit from the FA cup.

It's all true. But Klopp is also to blame - if you don't get your first choices - come on - there has to be a back up plan right???

[peachybum]

Finishing top 4 would be amazing but if FSG had invested properly then wed be in the title race.

Our wage bill is pretty huge in relation to turnover. Too big probably. How's that not investing properly? FSG seem to be willing to throw loads of cash about with these contracts if they believe it's value for money.

I'd put the blame on the squad options on the football department i.e Klopp and Edwards not FSG. Although i don't actually have any problem with the squad we went in with and don't think we were thread bare at all.

[wemmick]

The squad is thread bare, one defensive injury from Lucas playing CB, no replacement for Mane. Finishing top 4 would be amazing but if FSG had invested properly then wed be in the title race.

It's clear from watching us right now that the team is running on empty, we're not half the team we were at the start of the season, and this is without Europe and an early exit from the FA cup.

Maybe, but at what cost? Waiting might actually save us money over the long term and help us build a much better squad next season. A lot of continental players might not have joined us this season without Europe or extremely high wages. If we do our job for the remaining matches, we can offer Europe and our momentum under Klopp, from last season through this, may be a strong draw combined with good wages. It was a hell of a risk to take by Klopp and FSG, because it didn't prioritize winning the league this season, but I can see why they might do that if Klopp was confident he could get us over the line irrespective of injuries and absences. I know FSG get a lot of stick, and rightly so in some cases, but they do like to play the long game-in Boston and Liverpool.

[diegoLFC7]

The second half of the season collapse is now understandable. I looked over our transfer window in the summer, and out of all the transfers we made only three had a real impact. Mane, Matip, and Wjinaldum. Mane didnt play in January and then got injured in April. Matip was in and out of the squad throughout the season through injuries, which leaves Wjinaldum as the only transfer that has played consistently throughout the season. We made a 14.6 Million Pound Profit in the summer, and took some big earners off the wage bill. Now in this summer assuming we get Champions League football there is no excuse for not bringing in 6-7 real quality players to supplement this think squad. Jurgen Klopp should be praised for the position we are in given how thin the squad is and having only 3 new additions to the squad from last year that finished 8th. Its common sense, that our form dipped.

[ollick]

The second half of the season collapse is now understandable. I looked over our transfer window in the summer, and out of all the transfers we made only three had a real impact. Mane, Matip, and Wjinaldum. Mane didnt play in January and then got injured in April. Matip was in and out of the squad throughout the season through injuries, which leaves Wjinaldum as the only transfer that has played consistently throughout the season. We made a 14.6 Million Pound Profit in the summer, and took some big earners off the wage bill. Now in this summer assuming we get Champions League football there is no excuse for not bringing in 6-7 real quality players to supplement this think squad. Jurgen Klopp should be praised for the position we are in given how thin the squad is and having only 3 new additions to the squad from last year that finished 8th. Its common sense, that our form dipped.

Is there a case that poor form under Brendan and then a focussing on the EL towards the final stages of last season also contributed to our 8th place finish last season, in that we could have finished higher if Klopp came in straight away/we hadn't got the lure of CL for winning the EL?

I am not sure who else we signed in the summer that we expected to make an impact? Klavan? I suppose Karius would be the main one