Author Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance  (Read 222524 times)

Offline Nick110581

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5000 on: Yesterday at 05:29:27 pm »
Of course City will drop points now and Arsenal will win it, it looks inevitable. It would sum up our luck that twice we needed them to drop points in the run in whilst we kept winning, but the one season they do that our performances and belief have deserted us. The fact that we had to go near perfect to win it and still didn’t has probably affected us more than people realise. Luckily for Arsenal they’ve never had to deal with that. It may take us a long time in future title race’s to be optimistic as well. 30 years perhaps who knows.

City are unbeaten in 29 matches yet it looks inevitable that they will drop points. 😬

They also dropped points two years ago in the run in.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:31:20 pm by Nick110581 »
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5001 on: Yesterday at 07:31:57 pm »
People can point to certain games (Man U at OT) or it being the manager's last season as being reasons for why it went the way it has, but ultimately I feel we were too much on the edge of our seat all season to really feel totally confident we could do it. This is not a team that can grind out a few 1-0 wins. We've looked ropey in every game bar maybe five, which makes it remarkable that we have won as many as we have (and a pot to go with it). Reminds me of the Rodgers season where games were too open. All those comebacks were a testament to Klopp and the spirit of the team, but it was too much.

Think the main issue is we didn't address midfield in summer '22 (when the great man reeled off those 8 midfielders, which included Ox, Keita, 36 yo Milner and a few others whose legs had gone). I don't know if it was an oversight on his part, or was it financial restrictions (Jurgen was a rare breed in that he wasn't one to complain about lack of finances, he just got on with it).

A Klopp midfield has to be purring, providing the protection for the defence as well as winning the ball back quickly to feed it to the attackers. We really got four years of that at its optimum, summer '18 to '22 (coinciding with prime Fabinho, and our four best seasons). We saw the immense improvement when we sold Coutinho, as we tightened up defensively by not having to carry a lightweight in midfield, and (to my and many others surprise who thought losing him would hurt our creativity) we were even more dangerous going forward as the "creativity" was now winning the ball back quickly and allowing us to break faster, thus more space for the forwards to exploit.

We saw the difference in plain sight of just how pivotal a top notch central midfield is to a team just past the midway point of the 20- 21 season (just after the January window when we incredulously didn't sign two adequate central defenders at the beginning of the month when we were top of the league, the first of the two big blunders transfer window wise, the 2nd being the aforementioned summer '22 window). We had Fabinho and Hendo as our two central defenders, thus left a gaping hole in midfield, and we lost game after game (6 on the spin)...we then put them back in their natural position, and went on title winning form, with the might of Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips as the centre half pairing. The midfield locked up the defence with the two behind them just having to do the basics. It's quite possible we could have won a league title, with William's and Phillips as our central defence before Fabinho and Hendo were moved there, that's how good the midfield was (Fabinho and Hendo shouldn't have been moved at all, as two centre backs should have been in through the door on 1 January, straight after the players had done remarkable in the December to put us top without any available centre backs for most of it, with players openly looking toward the window opening (Andy Robertson post game (boxing day game or the game after that) on LFCTV being one) and reinforcements brought in, which shockingly did not happen. Jurgen kind of answered this question around the 23rd/24th of that Jan window when he rightly complained (for once) we've got no money having been asked for the umpteenth time why we haven't brought in any central defenders, but I'd love to ask him exactly what happened during that month. Without question the worst window of any team since its inception. Top of the league entering the window, a league title was beckoning, and the first thing Jurgen answered in his first press conference that January was that signing a centre back was "unlikely" (he didn't give his emotions away when he said it, but did let rip about 3 weeks later). I wasnt alone in being stunned at that comment. The closest thing to self sabotage I can recall. FSG's worst moment on the field by some distance. I'm digressing here but I remember thinking in late December someone like Gary Cahill and another coming straight in, and we'd do it. We sat on our hands and did nowt until the horse had bolted.

Back to the midfield inactivity of summer '22, we then tried to rectify it all last summer, basically akin to cramming for an exam. The change was too much, and we never addressed the defensive midfield position adequately (again more cramming with a massive/desperate bid for one two weeks before the window shut, before bringing in a 30 year old who didn't have the athleticism needed for a Klopp team). It's been a mishmash in midfield all season. Mac Allister is great, no issue with us getting that deal sorted first. But for me the main priority had to be a DM, especially so for a high risk style in Klopp. Given we press high up so leave spaces in behind, it is an absolute must to have a player who can put out fires when teams break against us (Fabinho "the lighthouse" for four years). A Klopp side demands more of the DM than most other sides, which makes it even more imperative that it's a top notch one. There have been gaping holes galore all season. Endo, bit of a cult figure, but akin to Lucas he doesn't have the physical capacity to screen the backline and shut down attacks before they get to the danger area. Teams target his lack of mobility. Another question I'd love to ask Klopp, is he surprised by how slow Endo is? "We need your legs and energy" I think is what he said to him in the changing room? I think we were all shocked when we saw him vs Newcastle. Like running in treacle. When he went off the tempo in the team went up a notch (likewise when Nunez came on for Gakpo). He has definitely become more accustomed to the style, and he's a tidy player on the ball, but we needed alot more than that. Having to play Mac out of position just imbalances the midfield, while with more balance in midfield in Endo it just leaves us more susceptible on the break. Another problem (with either of them playing in the 6) is the others in midfield have to be close to them ("compact" as Rafa would say), but that's not a Klopp team. The other midfielders shouldn't have to been carrying the work of the 6, that's impacting their game (I've no doubt its affected Dom). It would work in a more structured set up, but Klopp's is much more high risk, press high (which leaves the gaps), and that's when the athletic 6 takes up the slack, tracks runners, which we do not have.

When Fabinbo fell off a cliff in 22-23, we fell off a cliff. That protection had gone. Hendo's legs had already pretty much gone hence the need for at least one midfield reinforcement that summer, but it was the collapse of Fabinho that was most shocking. As I mentioned much more is asked of the DM in a Klopp team, which was probably why Fabinho was cooked so soon. That's the position we should have been focused on maintaining the quality of more than any other. We have seen it time and time again how important a quality one is. In Istanbul for us, we had been watertight throughout the knockouts (vs the freescoring champions of Itlay and England, both barely got a sniff), then Rafa sensing what PSV (including Park) did to that aging Milan defence decided to play Kewell rather than a DM, thus leaving Kaka free reign to run riot and slice open our helpless backline. Doesn't matter how good the central defence is (and our two were bloody good then) if theres no protection or screening infront of them they cannot do much. Makalele when he left R.Madrid, they collapsed. All that quality in defence and attack (and Casillas in goal), but there was no-one in the middle holding the show together (and every player at the time maligned that sale). He goes to Chelsea, does the same job there and they were a machine. Brazil in '02 had two of them (Gilberto and Kleberson), they needed them as all the others attacked; the three R's in the forward line and the two wingback in Cafu and Roberto Carlos. Kante at Leicester, at Chelsea, and for France (allowing Pogba the license to be solely focused on attacking). The Roy Evans team, a commanding DM is what we were crying out for. Slick passing of Redknapp, the running of McManaman (our player of the decade who frequently ran games on his own), and the finishing of Fowler; we had no anchor in midfield though, far too swashbuckling.

I think if Jurgen has one regret it's not bringing in the first midfield reinforcement in summer 22 (if he had been allowed to) as that would have left him with much less to do the following year, less cramming, as it was just too much. Under the circumstances we've had a great season.
 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:33:43 pm by KC7 »

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5002 on: Yesterday at 08:08:50 pm »
Great post that mate. You're right, we ended up giving ourselves too much to do in one window and it's a testament to Klopp's ability as a manager, as well as the overall performances of MacAllister particularly (although Endo and Dom have excelled in periods, too) that we've been able to compete. I disagree with some people's assessment that we would never have expected to compete this season. The pattern since 2020 has been shit season due to not filling a blatant gap in the squad (centre halves in 20/21, midfield in 22/23) followed by filling the gap and mounting a challenge. If it was down to Jürgen I'm sure we'd have filled those gaps quicker, the one criticism I think we could make of his strategy in hindsight were the Nunez and Gakpo signings when clearly it was midfield that needed sorting.

I do think though that the bigger problem preventing us getting over the line this year have been the injuries as opposed to the number of signings.

Anyway, back to the title race. Why oh why is my brain starting to ask those questions again? What if Brighton win tonight and Spurs beat Arsenal? That's plausible. Arsenal have a crap record at OT and don't like playing under pressure. City have spurs away still...forest won't be easy on the weekend.

It's the same daft thinking that had me still thinking we might turn it around and win with ten minutes left yesterday despite us looking like we wouldn't score in a month of Sundays.

Offline Razors Razor

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5003 on: Yesterday at 09:00:53 pm »
Of course City will drop points now and Arsenal will win it, it looks inevitable. It would sum up our luck that twice we needed them to drop points in the run in whilst we kept winning, but the one season they do that our performances and belief have deserted us. The fact that we had to go near perfect to win it and still didn’t has probably affected us more than people realise. Luckily for Arsenal they’ve never had to deal with that. It may take us a long time in future title race’s to be optimistic as well. 30 years perhaps who knows.

Not a chance City will drop points. Have you seen their run in? May as well give them the trophy now.

Offline Gogeqac

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5004 on: Yesterday at 09:19:18 pm »
Yesterday
Everton (1.2 xG) 2-0 (2.00 xG) Liverpool


Today @ HT
Brighton (0.14 xG) 0-3 (0.88 xG) Man City

We desperately need players who can shoot at the goal.

We're only 16th in the league in the ranking of goals/expected goals (in other words, conversion rate), only ahead of Fulham, Bournemouth, Brighton and Everton.
Arsenal are 3rd and City 10th.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:25:06 pm by Gogeqac »
YNWA

Offline itihasas

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5005 on: Today at 05:58:30 am »
What a manager, what a team but at the end of it all, will there be a sense of so close yet so far?
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5006 on: Today at 07:04:36 am »
We've looked ropey in every game bar maybe five, which makes it remarkable that we have won as many as we have (and a pot to go with it). Reminds me of the Rodgers season where games were too open. All those comebacks were a testament to Klopp and the spirit of the team, but it was too much.
I think we all sensed it, even if we might not like to admit it.

Last summer, we really needed a proper defensive midfielder. Despite claims at the time that Klopp doesn't favor purely defensive-minded players in his midfield (overlooking Fabinho in that argument), I believe that was the main goal.

Either way: great post.
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5007 on: Today at 07:10:04 am »
I want Arsenal to beat Spurs at the weekend. That result is far more useful for us.

Offline The_Nomad

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5008 on: Today at 07:21:20 am »
I want Arsenal to beat Spurs at the weekend. That result is far more useful for us.

Whatever happens, l don’t want The Arse to win it. It would be too fucking painful to think they’d got it right and won it instead of us under Klopp. If $hitty 115 win it, it would be meaningless to everyone.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:30:57 am by The_Nomad »
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Offline Caps4444

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5009 on: Today at 07:29:20 am »
What a manager, what a team but at the end of it all, will there be a sense of so close yet so far?

We deserved 1 more league title and 1 more European Cup, I feel the 21/22 season made Jurgen think….that was a painful season the way it ended.

For example United fans may play down Klopp and his time with us and the fact he only won 2 top tier trophies, but I look at the journey, looking forward to games at the end of the season, the joy of being involved in title races, cup semis, finals….its been an absolute pleasure, delight….and we had it consistently from 2017 to 2024.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5010 on: Today at 07:33:45 am »
I want Arsenal to beat Spurs at the weekend. That result is far more useful for us.

I’m not worried about Spurs winning their last 6 or whatever it is they need. I’d say Villa are more likely to win out (our game with them could be important) but I wouldn’t stress about Spurs at this point. Not that their results against Arsenal and City are too much of our business now.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5011 on: Today at 07:43:46 am »
Spurs lost their last game 4-0, have 7 points from their last 5 games, have won one of their last 7 away games, and are playing each of the top 3 in their remaining 6 games.

What I'm saying is, they're guaranteed to win 6 out of 6 so we might as well give up.

Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5012 on: Today at 07:53:43 am »
Whatever happens, l don’t want The Arse to win it. It would be too fucking painful to think they’d got it right and won it instead of us under Klopp. If $hitty 115 win it, it would be meaningless to everyone.

Liverpool first. Whatever happens after that, happens. The sooner we confirm the top 4 the better.

Offline mullyred94

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5013 on: Today at 07:55:56 am »
We deserved 1 more league title and 1 more European Cup, I feel the 21/22 season made Jurgen think….that was a painful season the way it ended.

For example United fans may play down Klopp and his time with us and the fact he only won 2 top tier trophies, but I look at the journey, looking forward to games at the end of the season, the joy of being involved in title races, cup semis, finals….its been an absolute pleasure, delight….and we had it consistently from 2017 to 2024.

We should have cooked the books and cheated  :wave

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5014 on: Today at 07:56:29 am »
Whatever happens, l don’t want The Arse to win it. It would be too fucking painful to think they’d got it right and won it instead of us under Klopp. If $hitty 115 win it, it would be meaningless to everyone.
It wouldn't be that they got it right but we didn't. Even if they win all their remaining games I think they only get 89 points. We've been 'runners up' with 97 and 92 points.

The sportswashers have skewed everything with their rampant cheating. We more than got it right. It's just that we were cheated out of the trophy by the 115*.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline mullyred94

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5015 on: Today at 07:58:50 am »
Still over achieved considering the what the thoughts were before the season.

Understandable to be upset but a lot of throwing the baby out with the bathwater atm.

We should probably sell the whole squad though...  :butt
« Last Edit: Today at 08:00:23 am by mullyred94 »

Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5016 on: Today at 08:02:49 am »
We're third in the league having legitimately challenged for the league until April. This was one of the worst injury crises we've ever had. We need to get to the bottom of why we have no many injuries and make a handful of key signings in the summer (most likely the DM and LCB) and go again. We need tweaks and not an overhaul.

Offline mullyred94

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5017 on: Today at 08:05:01 am »
We're third in the league having legitimately challenged for the league until April. This was one of the worst injury crises we've ever had. We need to get to the bottom of why we have no many injuries and make a handful of key signings in the summer (most likely the DM and LCB) and go again. We need tweaks and not an overhaul.

Imagine before the season saying it would have been in our hands.


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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5018 on: Today at 08:06:15 am »
Imagine before the season saying it would have been in our hands.



With a midfield overhaul I was fearing the worst.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5019 on: Today at 08:07:47 am »
Secure top 4, get the new manager in ASAP and start to rebuild.

If City aren't going to be punished by the league then we need to spend at least 100 million to compete for the title.
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Offline mullyred94

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5020 on: Today at 08:08:54 am »
Secure top 4, get the new manager in ASAP and start to rebuild.

If City aren't going to be punished by the league then we need to spend at least 100 million to compete for the title.


We need class CDM and a left sided defender.

If ruthless would sell one of the forwards and get a younger one in.


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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5021 on: Today at 08:43:33 am »
Would’ve given Danns a couple of subs while the forwards couldn’t hit a barn door
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5022 on: Today at 08:50:19 am »

I hope City win it, nobody cares about them winning it just will expose their cheating more. Fk Arsenal they were like everybody else cheering for City before.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5023 on: Today at 10:07:57 am »

We need class CDM and a left sided defender.

If ruthless would sell one of the forwards and get a younger one in.

Agreed. Need a LB who can at least split time with Robbo next season and maybe establish himself as the starter going into 2025

1 more CDM - basically an upgrade on Endo, who I would definitely keep as the backup since I don't want Macca playing there.

I would keep Jota, Diaz and Gakpo. Salah I would cash in and while I would not be pushing Nunez out the door, if anything close to decent interest was there I would consider it. Salah's replacement would be the marquee signing and either Nunez (if he is still here) next season establishes himself as the de facto first choice attacker and fully picks up Salah's mantle, or he is definitely out the door.

I don't have any targets in mind, and this isn't the transfer thread, but those are the 3 areas that to me cost us the title. Goals dried up, too soft in front of the back 4, and with Robbo missing or catching up for basically half the season our left side was neutered.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5024 on: Today at 10:09:52 am »
Agreed. Need a LB who can at least split time with Robbo next season and maybe establish himself as the starter going into 2025

1 more CDM - basically an upgrade on Endo, who I would definitely keep as the backup since I don't want Macca playing there.

I would keep Jota, Diaz and Gakpo. Salah I would cash in and while I would not be pushing Nunez out the door, if anything close to decent interest was there I would consider it. Salah's replacement would be the marquee signing and either Nunez (if he is still here) next season establishes himself as the de facto first choice attacker and fully picks up Salah's mantle, or he is definitely out the door.

I don't have any targets in mind, and this isn't the transfer thread, but those are the 3 areas that to me cost us the title. Goals dried up, too soft in front of the back 4, and with Robbo missing or catching up for basically half the season our left side was neutered.

Its not a transfer thread and I have been critical of Darwin but it would be mad to sell him and Salah and keep the other three. They are our top scorers!

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5025 on: Today at 10:45:20 am »
We have been ravaged by injuries all season but chopping and changing centre halves and midfielders hasn't helped.
The Endo, MacAlister partnership was working and then dropped, Konate in out shake it all about hasn't worked and Jones getting taken off in every game including half time is messing us about .
We haven't had a settled team all season, it's quite amazing we are in 3rd place.
All those missed goals have done for us, Jurgen will be sick now leaving this way ..

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5026 on: Today at 10:45:55 am »
Not giving up until it's mathematically impossible
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5027 on: Today at 11:04:59 am »
I want Arsenal to beat Spurs at the weekend. That result is far more useful for us.

Should we not be looking for Arsenal to drop points?
Finishing 2nd behind City might give us another Title?
I would love someone from our club to come out with that!  ;D