Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[thaddeus]

A headline Labour policy I can really get behind!  Hopefully the first of many.

However for as long as they remain lukewarm towards the EU then I'll remain lukewarm towards them.

[Red Beret]

Wouldn't mind paying what we're paying at the moment if the money actually went back into improving the railways rather than into an executives pocket!

Well I DO mind. If the money is going into infrastructure instead of going on dividends for shareholders and bonuses for execs, then you can easily cut fares and still have plenty of money to invest in the network.

Network Rail has been nationalised for years, and it's notable that the Tories never dared tried to re-privatise it. So the government already owns the track and signalling infrastructure. The problem is that the service has become disjointed, poor quality, and the fares overly complex as companies look to deliberately trick commuters into paying more than they have to.

We need more trains, higher capacity trains, better quality trains, faster trains, more comfortable trains, cheaper trains. Getting control of the rolling stock has to be Labour's next priority, but they can't do that until they turn the economy around.

[Red-Soldier]

Good policy announcement.  Makes perfect sense (as does renationalising most things), and surely a vote winner, too (as much renationlising would be).

Did I read that they didn't actually use the word 'nationalise'.

[Red Beret]

A headline Labour policy I can really get behind!  Hopefully the first of many.

However for as long as they remain lukewarm towards the EU then I'll remain lukewarm towards them.

They don't have a choice on that. The public is lukewarm on the EU, thanks to the hysterical rantings of the right wing press. The EU will remain political quicksand for the foreseeable future, so of course Labour isn't going to poke the bear. Rebuilding the public's trust on the matter is going to take years, and Labour can't do that in opposition.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Good News on the Railways.  Hopefully a cheaper and improved joined up service and if they're still shit after Nationalisation  get to blame Starmer, its a win-win.

[Lisan Al Gaib]

Well I DO mind. If the money is going into infrastructure instead of going on dividends for shareholders and bonuses for execs, then you can easily cut fares and still have plenty of money to invest in the network.

Network Rail has been nationalised for years, and it's notable that the Tories never dared tried to re-privatise it. So the government already owns the track and signalling infrastructure. The problem is that the service has become disjointed, poor quality, and the fares overly complex as companies look to deliberately trick commuters into paying more than they have to.

We need more trains, higher capacity trains, better quality trains, faster trains, more comfortable trains, cheaper trains. Getting control of the rolling stock has to be Labour's next priority, but they can't do that until they turn the economy around.

We'd all like to see cheaper railways but if we're paying the prices we are now we can get the points in bold out quicker than we would do if we dropped prices. The train network needs modernising right across the country, there's still places where diesel engines are still used! HS2 has been horrifically mis-sold to the country as getting to London quicker when the main purpose of it was to get the high speed trains off the main line tracks thus creating extra capacity on those for passenger and freight services. The Tories have done what they've done to the rest of the country with trains and completely ran it into the ground, if higher prices means more investment to improve train services right across the country and make sure the north gets the HS2 sections it was promised quicker than it would be by slashing the cost of travel then its a price we have to pay.

[Red Beret]

Good News on the Railways.  Hopefully a cheaper and improved joined up service and if they're still shit after Nationalisation  get to blame Starmer, its a win-win.

There's a lot to fix. It'll likely be 2035 before the service is even close to what it should be. Have to make sure the Tories are out at least that long.

[Kenny's Jacket]

There's a lot to fix. It'll likely be 2035 before the service is even close to what it should be. Have to make sure the Tories are out at least that long.

What annoys me is the, thats another operator ask them however]I will miss Mersey Rail, probably my favourite company ever.  Labour should shoulod use them as an example of how you do it.

A warning though, Welsh Labour run TfW and they are fucking shit.

[Red Beret]

We'd all like to see cheaper railways but if we're paying the prices we are now we can get the points in bold out quicker than we would do if we dropped prices. The train network needs modernising right across the country, there's still places where diesel engines are still used!

HS2 has been horrifically mis-sold to the country as getting to London quicker when the main purpose of it was to get the high speed trains off the main line tracks thus creating extra capacity on those for passenger and freight services.

The Tories have done what they've done to the rest of the country with trains and completely ran it into the ground, if higher prices means more investment to improve train services right across the country and make sure the north gets the HS2 sections it was promised quicker than it would be by slashing the cost of travel then its a price we have to pay.

The service is unaffordable as things stand. Rail companies are already dealing with a drop in passenger numbers. The priority HAS to be cutting prices. There will still be plenty of money left over for investment, once the private parasites are removed from the equation.

Eight years ago I could travel first class from Liverpool to London for around Ł45 one way. The cost has tripled - TRIPLED! Even with my disabled rail card it costs me around Ł70-Ł90 depending on when I can book. And that's just first class. Standard is abysmal.

Getting HS2 reinstated is something Labour need to look at urgently. The government is still buying up land for the project, and they can't possibly sell off what they have bought before the next GE.

We can invest AND cut ticket prices if the service is renationalised. The two are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, in Spain, you can pay €18 for a 3 hour, non stop service from Madrid to Malaga in a standard class coach where comfort approaches first class for a UK train. It's too much to ask the British people to be paying through the nose now on the promise of having a comparable quality of service 20 years down the line. We're still dealing with a cost of living crisis where a weekly work commute is likely taking up a big chunk of a lot of people's expenses.

Looking to cut prices asap is a gesture of hope to the electorate that buys Labour a lot of goodwill.

[thaddeus]

They don't have a choice on that. The public is lukewarm on the EU, thanks to the hysterical rantings of the right wing press. The EU will remain political quicksand for the foreseeable future, so of course Labour isn't going to poke the bear. Rebuilding the public's trust on the matter is going to take years, and Labour can't do that in opposition.

I understand why they don't poke the hornets nest ahead of a general election.  At some public opinion will turn - it arguably already has but not in the demographics that vote in higher percentages - and I worry Labour will still be left sitting on the fence.  It's borderline farce that Labour daren't even point out what a pig's ear Brexit and the "oven ready deal" are for fear of the rags.

It wouldn't even surprise me if a future Tory leader made closer EU ties a central policy and threw Johnson under the bus.  Most of their cranks will be Reform members soon anyway so they may as well make a play for the 50%+ people in favour of re-joining the EU or having closer ties with the EU.

[LuverlyRita]

They don't have a choice on that. The public is lukewarm on the EU, thanks to the hysterical rantings of the right wing press.

Is the public lukewarm or is it the case that the proprieters of the right wing media and the current right wing government are the ones suggesting a continuing anti-EU agenda when in reality attitudes have changed?
Many of the leave voters seemed unsure what they were voting for at the time but will now tell you that they didn't vote for this. I bet that if you could round up those who would now change their vote if the question was asked again, the shift would be towards Remain. Many of the leave voters were elderly and are now no longer around. Young people tend to be pro-EU and many who were not entitled to vote then will have a vote now. 

[Red Beret]

What annoys me is the, thats another operator ask them however]I will miss Mersey Rail, probably my favourite company ever.  Labour should shoulod use them as an example of how you do it.

A warning though, Welsh Labour run TfW and they are fucking shit.

Merseyrail is about as close a thing the country has to a nationalised rail network. Everything is done in house, including track maintenance, and with the new 777 trains, Merseyrail owns their rail stock outright instead of leasing it. It's certainly not perfect by any means - especially the way they can massage the figures when it comes to cancellations and punctuality - but there are certainly worse operators out there.

I think TfW's biggest problem is they have lousy rolling stock for the most part, so it doesn't matter who is running it. Northern has a similar problem. I saw a YT mini-documentary suggesting a lot of their trains got pulled because they're just not good enough.

I imagine the Merseyrail brand will survive renationalisation though.

[Lisan Al Gaib]

The service is unaffordable as things stand. Rail companies are already dealing with a drop in passenger numbers. The priority HAS to be cutting prices. There will still be plenty of money left over for investment, once the private parasites are removed from the equation.

Eight years ago I could travel first class from Liverpool to London for around Ł45 one way. The cost has tripled - TRIPLED! Even with my disabled rail card it costs me around Ł70-Ł90 depending on when I can book. And that's just first class. Standard is abysmal.

Getting HS2 reinstated is something Labour need to look at urgently. The government is still buying up land for the project, and they can't possibly sell off what they have bought before the next GE.

We can invest AND cut ticket prices if the service is renationalised. The two are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, in Spain, you can pay €18 for a 3 hour, non stop service from Madrid to Malaga in a standard class coach where comfort approaches first class for a UK train. It's too much to ask the British people to be paying through the nose now on the promise of having a comparable quality of service 20 years down the line. We're still dealing with a cost of living crisis where a weekly work commute is likely taking up a big chunk of a lot of people's expenses.

Looking to cut prices asap is a gesture of hope to the electorate that buys Labour a lot of goodwill.

You make really good points, in large I agree with them and the long term goal would be cheaper prices completely which would bring a lot of goodwill to Labour if they implemented it but you've also said it'll be 2035 for the service to be anywhere near where it should be. It could be done quicker if the funding is there to do it quicker and the short term pain of higher prices could lead to quicker relief with lower prices. We could invest and cut ticket prices if the service is renationalised you're right but we could also invest a hell of a lot more quickly by either not cutting ticket prices that much or keeping them as they are now.

I understand why they don't poke the hornets nest ahead of a general election.  At some public opinion will turn - it arguably already has but not in the demographics that vote in higher percentages - and I worry Labour will still be left sitting on the fence.  It's borderline farce that Labour daren't even point out what a pig's ear Brexit and the "oven ready deal" are for fear of the rags.

It wouldn't even surprise me if a future Tory leader made closer EU ties a central policy and threw Johnson under the bus.  Most of their cranks will be Reform members soon anyway so they may as well make a play for the 50%+ people in favour of re-joining the EU or having closer ties with the EU.

I'd hope they'd have a plan for this too. I think I saw something mentioned a while ago about them looking to give those who had settled status here from the EU the ability to vote in referendums like this and I hope they do that, alongside giving 16 year olds the vote. Gerrymander the fuck out of it, stack the odds well onto the rejoin side and then tell everyone its not working and hold a referendum they know they'll win.

[filopastry]

They don't have a choice on that. The public is lukewarm on the EU, thanks to the hysterical rantings of the right wing press. The EU will remain political quicksand for the foreseeable future, so of course Labour isn't going to poke the bear. Rebuilding the public's trust on the matter is going to take years, and Labour can't do that in opposition.

To be brutally honest the EU is showing little enthusiasm for any kind of renegotiation with the UK at present as well

[Libertine]

Very sensible policy, and "free" as well which helps. Was quite handy that all of the remaining franchise contracts are due to expire in the next 5 years.

Putting an end to the rail privatisation farce is the easy part though. The hard part is getting it to a 21st century European-level service without increasing (and ideally reducing) ticket prices. I imagine they will also need to be tough on the special interests involved in this.

[Kenny's Jacket]

We need more trains, higher capacity trains, better quality trains, faster trains, more comfortable trains, cheaper trains.

Wheelchair accessible trains, like Mersey Rail

[Red Beret]

You make really good points, in large I agree with them and the long term goal would be cheaper prices completely which would bring a lot of goodwill to Labour if they implemented it but you've also said it'll be 2035 for the service to be anywhere near where it should be. It could be done quicker if the funding is there to do it quicker and the short term pain of higher prices could lead to quicker relief with lower prices. We could invest and cut ticket prices if the service is renationalised you're right but we could also invest a hell of a lot more quickly by either not cutting ticket prices that much or keeping them as they are now.

From the Guardian:

Labour will fully nationalise the train network within five years of coming to power, with a pledge to guarantee the cheapest fares as part of “the biggest reform of our railways for a generation”.

One of Labour’s first major acts in government will bring all passenger rail into national ownership under Great British Railways as contracts with private operators expire, a plan endorsed by the architect of the Conservatives’ own rail plan.

Labour will announce it plans to cut waste and claw back shareholder dividends, saving Ł2.2bn. It will establish a watchdog, the Passenger Standards Authority, to scrutinise the new system. Passengers will be offered best-price ticket guarantees, automatic delay repay and digital season tickets across the network.

In a speech on Thursday, the shadow transport secretary, Louise Haigh, will say renationalisation “is not going to be easy and it will take hard graft, but it will be my mission to get us to the right destination and to deliver for the Great British passenger”.

Labour insiders hailed the announcement as the moment the party would begin to champion its more radical proposals in the run-up to an election campaign, after a number of U-turns including over green investment.

“It is passengers who pay the price, through being stranded because of cancellations, through being unable to work as they travel because there’s no internet, through overcrowded and unpleasant trains,” Haigh will say.

“And they also pay through the nose to prop up this failing system, with huge amounts wasted every year through today’s inefficient and fragmented rail network, and even more money leaking out to pay shareholder dividends.”

However, the plans do not include nationalisation of privately owned freight or rolling stock companies, which trade unions have called for but which would cost billions.

The party will argue that the public ownership plans will cost nothing in compensation to operators, who would transfer ownership once contracts expire, and save significant sums on bureaucracy and dividends to private operators.

Labour's priority is cutting costs for customers. Rolling stock is out of their control, so it's all about cutting the bureaucracy and removing the burden of dividends. As I said, the rail network itself is already in government hands, so the priority is freeing up resources to make the network integrated, usuable, and affordable.

Buying the rolling stock is undoubtedly a long term aim, but Labour can accomplish this by getting the economy back on its feet. It need not rely on money saved solely by renationalising the railways. Short term is going to be about getting prices down.

[Kenny's Jacket]

However, the plans do not include nationalisation of privately owned freight or rolling stock companies, which trade unions have called for but which would cost billions.




My hope lasted minutes.

[Red Beret]

Is the public lukewarm or is it the case that the proprieters of the right wing media and the current right wing government are the ones suggesting a continuing anti-EU agenda when in reality attitudes have changed?
Many of the leave voters seemed unsure what they were voting for at the time but will now tell you that they didn't vote for this. I bet that if you could round up those who would now change their vote if the question was asked again, the shift would be towards Remain. Many of the leave voters were elderly and are now no longer around. Young people tend to be pro-EU and many who were not entitled to vote then will have a vote now.

The problem is that now we are out, all the safeguards and concessions we secured as EU members are gone. If we petition to rejoin, the EU will have us over a barrel. Once people see the list of requirements for rejoining - starting with adopting the Euro and working from there - I suspect a lot of stiff necked pride will come into play within the electorate.

And as filopastry says, the EU are probably glad to be rid of our disruptive influence for the time being.

[Red Beret]

However, the plans do not include nationalisation of privately owned freight or rolling stock companies, which trade unions have called for but which would cost billions.




My hope lasted minutes.

I hope that's a whoosh because what the fuck do you want? Labour to shake the magic money tree? The economy is on its knees, people are going broke, and we're on the brink of frigging World War 3.

Jeez Christo, it's like for some people Labour can't do anything fucking right.

[TepidT2O]

Leasing planes/trains etc makes sense though. They take the risk (provided you dont let yourself be held to blackmail).

[Kenny's Jacket]

I hope that's a whoosh because what the fuck do you want? Labour to shake the magic money tree? The economy is on its knees, people are going broke, and we're on the brink of frigging World War 3.

Jeez Christo, it's like for some people Labour can't do anything fucking right.

what a childish reaction
 
no woosh, just huge disappointment that I still wont be able to get on a train independently.

Where to spend money is always a choice and were not on the brink of WW3.

[Elmo!]

I hope they commit to replacing rolling stock with their own trains and gradually phase out TMOCs as well. It's not really full nationalisation otherwise. A good start though.

[TepidT2O]

I hope they commit to replacing rolling stock with their own trains and gradually phase out TMOCs as well. It's not really full nationalisation otherwise. A good start though.

Yeah but it’s a lot easier to lease (if it works)
Buying the rolling stock would cost lots of money. At least building new stuff as it gets old would pump money back into our economy

[Elmo!]

Yeah but it’s a lot easier to lease (if it works)
Buying the rolling stock would cost lots of money. At least building new stuff as it gets old would pump money back into our economy

That's what I mean by phasing out. Don't buy the existing stock, just buy new trains as they need replaced.

It's easier for the smaller private firms to lease, when they only operate parts of the network, and might only have the franchise for a few years, but a nationwide permanent nationalised operator should be able to own their own stock.

[TepidT2O]

Objectively hilarious how they’ve pulled the rug out from under the Tories here

[TepidT2O]

More good policy!

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-to-scrap-duty-to-deport-channel-migrants-in-first-100-days-in-power-3022633

[killer-heels]

Objectively hilarious how they’ve pulled the rug out from under the Tories here

Fucking great poster that. Also this policy will have the Tories squirming.

[Wabaloolah]

However, the plans do not include nationalisation of privately owned freight or rolling stock companies, which trade unions have called for but which would cost billions.




My hope lasted minutes.

small steps, it does seem though that some posters look for criticism for the sake of criticism.

How much would it cost to buy all of the rolling stock? Then you have the maintenance associated with owning it.

[oldfordie]

This is far braver than people give them credit for, the rail company's are taking all the criticism for high prices and a poor service. the Labour government will take that responsibility and the criticism that comes with it when they take railways back into public hands. I hope the Rail unions don't get too political and make things look bad for Starmers Labour.

Many people don't use the train, the use busses. local bus services have been slashed, services to large city's slashed as well. prices for busses have also shot up for a worse service, if your talking about levelling up then our Bus services need help as well.

I remember some people working in rail talking about how spending public money in the lead up to privatisation wasn't a problem. over time went through the roof to work on maintenance to get the rail network in top condition for the private companys to take over, it saved the private company's a fortune in maintenance. will the reverse happen now, will maintenance be cut save private companys even more money?

[Kenny's Jacket]

small steps, it does seem though that some posters look for criticism for the sake of criticism.

How much would it cost to buy all of the rolling stock? Then you have the maintenance associated with owning it.

Its a positive start.
The main thing I was hoping for from Nationalisation was to be able to access a train without the help of others.  My local station is unmanned so every time I want to get the train I have to hope the guard gets off and gets me on, that is extremely stressful and an awful way to start a journey.
Some stations are still wheelchair friendly.


As for the cost I dont know, but like many things we have the money, we just decide where its spent.

[Red Beret]

what a childish reaction
 
no woosh, just huge disappointment that I still wont be able to get on a train independently.

Where to spend money is always a choice and were not on the brink of WW3.

We're effectively in WW3 right now - it's just that so far it's only Ukraine fighting it. But that's not for this thread. What can be said though, is that we can't curtail defence spending.

This isn't 1997, when the economy was in decent shape. It's not even 2010, when the economy was struggling from a bad hit. The current economy isn't even on its knees. It's curled up in the gutter after having the Tories kick the shit out of it for over a dozen years. But you are massively disappointed that a Labour government won't immediately lavish uncosted billions on the railways?

I realise it's frustrating for passengers, especially disabled ones. But unfortunately we're years away from fixing some of these issues. It's taken over 10 years to bring the 777s in.

It's true, in a dire emergency the magic money tree can come into play. But that's needed to make ammo, bombs, shells and missiles right now. Buying back rolling stock is kind of a low priority. We should just be glad that we're getting BR back. This kind of mess isn't fixed overnight. We should try being a bit more hopeful and not so immediately dismissive when everything isn't exactly the way we think it should be.

[Red Beret]

Yeah but it’s a lot easier to lease (if it works)
Buying the rolling stock would cost lots of money. At least building new stuff as it gets old would pump money back into our economy

One of the big problems with rolling stock is that a lot of it is generally of poor quality, even some of the newer trains that still have plenty of operational life left to them. Designing and building trains from scratch isn't cheap, even when based on existing designs.

But yes, it would make a lot of sense for the new British Rail to set about ordering new stock that would be publicly owned from the outset, and ultimately buy only the existing rolling stock that is fit for use. But you're looking at a decade at least.

[oldfordie]

Labour will be criticised for what they don't do rather than praised for what they do do. that's certain to happen. the Torys have left the country in a terrible mess, so much needs repairing, Labour will have to prioritise, they will have to leave things they would like to fix now for the future. it will be spun as Labour following Tory policy otherwise they would have fixed it.

[Wabaloolah]

Its a positive start.
The main thing I was hoping for from Nationalisation was to be able to access a train without the help of others.  My local station is unmanned so every time I want to get the train I have to hope the guard gets off and gets me on, that is extremely stressful and an awful way to start a journey.
Some stations are still wheelchair friendly.


As for the cost I dont know, but like many things we have the money, we just decide where its spent.

ah I get you now, didn't realise you were a wheelchair user. Yes I imagine that would be quite tough from an unmanned station.

[Kenny's Jacket]

ah I get you now, didn't realise you were a wheelchair user. Yes I imagine that would be quite tougom an unmanned station.

70/80% of the time its ok as there are other passengers getting on and one of them will get the guard, but its still stressful to rely on others.

[RedDeadRejection]

What annoys me is the, thats another operator ask them however]I will miss Mersey Rail, probably my favourite company ever.  Labour should shoulod use them as an example of how you do it.

A warning though, Welsh Labour run TfW and they are fucking shit.

I work for TFW. Problems stem from waaaaay before Welsh government took over. And things have improved this year.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I work for TFW. Problems stem from waaaaay before Welsh government took over. And things have improved this year.

Ive only been back in Wales 4 years so can only comment from then on.  Most of the issues Ive had have been in the last 18 months, but then again I use trains more now.