Topic: Do you support the strikes?

[Red46]

Does the anti-EU and pro-Russia attitude come with the old school leftism?

Well the left led by Tony Benn were against us joining the common market. As for Ukraine being 60 years of age Mick will remember the fall of the Berlin Wall and the assurances given by the likes of Bush I, Thatcher, Kohl etc that if the Soviet Union withdrew from Eatern Europe NATO would not encroach 1 inch eastwards beyond the borders of a reunited Germany.

[Yorkykopite]

Lynch is an old school leftie, not a plazzy new labour ‘leftie’

I think that's probably right, even though the wording is odd.

I imagine he's quite a conservative chap being 'old school'. 'Socialism in one country' and 'Britain for the British' and all that 19th century business. How it is relevant today I don't know. But I didn't vote Brexit and have yet to hear a persuasive argument for it.

Although, I must admit, it seems to be working out pretty well.

[Sangria]

Well the left led by Tony Benn were against us joining the common market. As for Ukraine being 60 years of age Mick will remember the fall of the Berlin Wall and the assurances given by the likes of Bush I, Thatcher, Kohl etc that if the Soviet Union withdrew from Eatern Europe NATO would not encroach 1 inch eastwards beyond the borders of a reunited Germany.

I'll just say that I don't believe in a left that's against the EU and is pro-Russia. If all that is part of the old leftie package, then maybe we should move away from it and towards something that is pro-EU and anti-Russia.

[Red46]

I think that's probably right, even though the wording is odd.

I imagine he's quite a conservative chap being 'old school'. 'Socialism in one country' and 'Britain for the British' and all that 19th century business. How it is relevant today I don't know. But I didn't vote Brexit and have yet to hear a persuasive argument for it.

Although, I must admit, it seems to be working out pretty well.

Well as I say Mick is proper old school and the single market, the rules of which were written up by Thatchers bag carrier Francis Cockfield, would be something he has probably rallied against all his life. Throw in FOM or to give it its proper title the free movement of cheap labour and there’s plenty there for an old school leftie not to like.

[Red46]

I'll just say that I don't believe in a left that's against the EU and is pro-Russia. If all that is part of the old leftie package, then maybe we should move away from it and towards something that is pro-EU and anti-Russia.

The likes of Tony Benn, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore et al were internationalists, they weren’t against foreigners or nations working closely together, quite the opposite in fact. They believed the EU was a club put together and run in the interests of big business not ordinary people. If the EU was genuinely run in the interests of ordinary people the likes of Benn etc would have been it’s biggest advocates.

[Yorkykopite]

Well as I say Mick is proper old school and the single market, the rules of which were written up by Thatchers bag carrier Francis Cockfield, would be something he has probably rallied against all his life. Throw in FOM or to give it its proper title the free movement of cheap labour and there’s plenty there for an old school leftie not to like.

Well at least some of his members work for nationalised railway companies. They just happen to French and Dutch. And for some reason Mick thinks that being a EU member prevents a state from nationalising parts of its economy.

[Sangria]

Well at least some of his members work for nationalised railway companies. They just happen to French and Dutch. And for some reason Mick thinks that being a EU member prevents a state from nationalising parts of its economy.

France are about to nationalise the biggest UK provider of electricity.

[TepidT2O]

Lynch is an old school leftie, not a plazzy new labour ‘leftie’

[Kenny's Jacket]

Well at least some of his members work for nationalised railway companies. They just happen to French and Dutch. And for some reason Mick thinks that being a EU member prevents a state from nationalising parts of its economy.

Has he said thats why he is pro Brexit.?
Ive not heard mention of it since that Robert Peston show show that we argued about. Ive given it some thought and deduced2 it may be because of EU laws against government subsidies.

[Elmo!]

Has he said thats why he is pro Brexit.?
Ive not heard mention of it since that Robert Peston show show that we argued about. Ive given it some thought and deduced2 it may be because of EU laws against government subsidies.

He has confirmed it is based on even worse reasoning than that. He is under the impression EU members are legally obliged to privatise their nationalised industries.

Listen to him on this weeks Guardian Politics Weekls podcast.

[Yorkykopite]

He has confirmed it is based on even worse reasoning than that. He is under the impression EU members are legally obliged to privatise their nationalised industries.

Listen to him on this weeks Guardian Politics Weekls podcast.

It's a shame if he misled his own members on that point when they actually came to vote in the Referendum.

[Kenny's Jacket]

He has confirmed it is based on even worse reasoning than that. He is under the impression EU members are legally obliged to privatise their nationalised industries.

Listen to him on this weeks Guardian Politics Weekls podcast.

WTF.  Ill have a listen, I think.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Has he said thats why he is pro Brexit.?
Ive not heard mention of it since that Robert Peston show show that we argued about. Ive given it some thought and deduced2 it may be because of EU laws against government subsidies.

https://archive.ph/Y3Cho

Starmer and Lynch also differ on Brexit. Lynch and the RMT supported leaving. Why? “Because the European Union has privatisation embedded in its constitution,” he said. “I don’t like the idea that you give your sovereignty and democracy away to a load of bureaucrats and bankers.” Lynch said that Corbyn’s putative programme of nationalisation would not have been legal had Britain remained in the EU.

And:

I asked him whether Brexit has weakened the EU in the face of Russian aggression and the rise of China.
“The EU also provoked a lot of the trouble in Ukraine. It was all about being pro-EU and all the rest of it,” he said, referring to the pro-EU Maidan revolution in Ukraine in 2014. “There were a lot of corrupt politicians in Ukraine. And while they were doing that, there were an awful lot of people [in Ukraine] playing with Nazi imagery, and going back to the [Second World] war, and all that. So, it’s not just that this stuff has sprung from one place.”

I am very impressed with how Lynch handles the press - very impressed. But his politics are shit. He should stick to representing his members. Having said that - and to repeat Yorkykopite's comment - did Lynch mislead his members in the run up to the Brexit referendum?

[Red46]

Well at least some of his members work for nationalised railway companies. They just happen to French and Dutch. And for some reason Mick thinks that being a EU member prevents a state from nationalising parts of its economy.

Well to be fair the EU does prefer privatisation over nationalisation and the EU has traditionally pushed countries hard to liberalise their economies but there is a national interest clause, that’s why our government was able to basically own the likes of Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland etc  in the wake of the financial crisis and why the French government has drawn up plans to own EDF with this energy crisis going on.

[So… Howard Philips]

Well to be fair the EU does prefer privatisation over nationalisation and the EU has traditionally pushed countries hard to liberalise their economies but there is a national interest clause, that’s why our government was able to basically own the likes of Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland etc  in the wake of the financial crisis and why the French government has drawn up plans to own EDF with this energy crisis going on.

Aren’t the French and Dutch rail networks publically owned?

[Kenny's Jacket]

https://archive.ph/Y3ChoAnd:I am very impressed with how Lynch handles the press - very impressed. But his politics are shit. He should stick to representing his members. Having said that - and to repeat Yorkykopite's comment - did Lynch mislead his members in the run up to the Brexit referendum?

Thanks for the link, outside of Brexit, his politics have been pretty good IMO. What else has he said to irk you.

.

  did Lynch mislead his members in the run up to the Brexit referendum?

Interesting question. Its possible, however Id say Blue collar workers have a Brexit inclination.  The rhetoric of cheap East European labour keeping wages low was a staple of the Brexit campaign. Lynch wouldnt have needed to do that much for his members to vote Brexit. 
If he did lie to them you would assume they are still ignorant of the fact he lied.

[Yorkykopite]

Well to be fair the EU does prefer privatisation over nationalisation and the EU has traditionally pushed countries hard to liberalise their economies but there is a national interest clause, that’s why our government was able to basically own the likes of Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland etc  in the wake of the financial crisis and why the French government has drawn up plans to own EDF with this energy crisis going on.

Exactly. Mick Lynch was wrong.

[Yorkykopite]

Interesting question. Its possible, however Id say Blue collar workers have a Brexit inclination.  The rhetoric of cheap East European labour keeping wages low was a staple of the Brexit campaign. Lynch wouldnt have needed to do that much for his members to vote Brexit. 
If he did lie to them you would assume they are still ignorant of the fact he lied.

I don't know if that's true of unionised blue-collar workers. They tend to be more progressive than non-unionised ones.

Of course it's very possible that members of the RMT no longer care much what their General Secretary or Executive Committee say about such things. But that would be a shame too. I've always thought it a good thing that trade-union leaders try and educate their members about issues beyond pay and conditions. It's just that you want them to know what they're talking about. Mick Lynch appears - on this issue - like he doesn't know.

[Sangria]

Thanks for the link, outside of Brexit, his politics have been pretty good IMO. What else has he said to irk you.

See Ukraine.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Thanks for the link, outside of Brexit, his politics have been pretty good IMO. What else has he said to irk you.

Well, there are his comments about Ukraine I included in my previous post:

I asked him whether Brexit has weakened the EU in the face of Russian aggression and the rise of China.
“The EU also provoked a lot of the trouble in Ukraine. It was all about being pro-EU and all the rest of it,” he said, referring to the pro-EU Maidan revolution in Ukraine in 2014. “There were a lot of corrupt politicians in Ukraine. And while they were doing that, there were an awful lot of people [in Ukraine] playing with Nazi imagery, and going back to the [Second World] war, and all that. So, it’s not just that this stuff has sprung from one place.”

And these too (all from the same article):

He is also sceptical of the prevailing narrative about China. “I don’t know if what I’m told by the Telegraph and by American policy writers [about China] is true,” he said. “We were told Saddam Hussein was the greatest threat to the Western world that there had ever been… what he actually had was a very oppressive regime against his own people, and a collection of pots and boilers that he’d strung together as so-called Scud missiles. We were told all that by the same analysts that are telling us now that China wants to commit all of this aggression against all of these people,” Lynch said. “We should stop being so belligerent towards countries”.

But does he think, for instance, that Uyghurs are subject to slave labour in China’s Xinjiang province? “Slave labour is happening in Leicester,” he retorted. “Why do we want to start on the Uyghurs if we don’t want to start on the Palestinians?”
Lynch’s views hark back to a time when Labour politicians such as Tony Benn and Michael Foot wanted to strengthen the unions and restrain Western power abroad. Labour, he said, should return to “what used to be called Old Labour: you believed in some fairly traditional values, communitarian values, but you also weren’t ashamed of being patriotic because I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that”.

“The free movement of labour I don’t think helps anyone,” he continued, “because it means the countries that people are coming from have lost some of their most able people… and it didn’t help the labour market in Britain,” he said. “But people don’t argue that – they argue that they can’t get olives, or they’ve got a long queue to get to Tuscany.”

Interesting question. Its possible, however Id say Blue collar workers have a Brexit inclination.  The rhetoric of cheap East European labour keeping wages low was a staple of the Brexit campaign. Lynch wouldnt have needed to do that much for his members to vote Brexit. 
If he did lie to them you would assume they are still ignorant of the fact he lied.

I would not suggest that he 'lied'. Only that he is very wrong on the EU and his claim that it requires privatization. So, as Yorky suggested, he and the union (apparently) mislead the members.

[Kenny's Jacket]

See Ukraine.

Ill have a look.
I have no idea what he has said re Ukraine yet, but thought I would add I recently saw a video of Dempsey who was critical of Russia and without prompting.

[oldfordie]

Has he said thats why he is pro Brexit.?
Ive not heard mention of it since that Robert Peston show show that we argued about. Ive given it some thought and deduced2 it may be because of EU laws against government subsidies.

EU aren't against State aid, Nationalisation, they are against long term State subsidies as they are wrong, it's unfair trading,  Chinese Steel dumping came about by long term State subsidies so if the left think long term state subsidies to prop up a UK business are ok then they can't criticise any other country who subsidise their company's to flood the UK market with cheap goods. that's exactly what the Chinese did with Steel, we had no chance of competing, it was unfair trading. EU aren't against short term State aid especially in deprived areas.
It's complicated, the lefts arguments for Brexit remind me of Farages approach to Brexit. they got away with coning people for years as nobody knew that much about the EU until the Referendum came along.  they do now so those statements and arguments haven't aged well. would the RMT like to defend their anti EU are against workers rights statement now. I doubt it, they put that statement out knowing people wouldn't know that much about the EU so like Frottage they would get away with whatever anti EU workers rights smear they wanted.
The lefts +rights anti EU stance is based on one belief and everything else argued is to justify the argument to leave. it's the principle of nobody should be able to tell us what to do, that's it really, all the other arguments made are searched for so they can make a argument to leave. problem for the left, Frottage+ hard right Torys was they couldn't make a sound true argument to leave the EU so we ended up with lies and propaganda.

[Red46]

Exactly. Mick Lynch was wrong.

Well if you want to go by the letter of the law yes, but there is no doubt that the single market is a Thatcherite construct, the so called 4 freedoms on which its built are a corporate CEO’s dream.
I get the hands across the ocean sentiment of many remainers but if it comes at the expense of those at the bottom of our own society then for some it’s too big a price to pay.

[Red46]

EU aren't against State aid, Nationalisation, they are against long term State subsidies as they are wrong, it's unfair trading,  Chinese Steel dumping came about by long term State subsidies so if the left think long term state subsidies to prop up a UK business are ok then they can't criticise any other country who subsidise their company's to flood the UK market with cheap goods. that's exactly what the Chinese did with Steel, we had no chance of competing, it was unfair trading. EU aren't against short term State aid especially in deprived areas.
It's complicated, the lefts arguments for Brexit remind me of Farages approach to Brexit. they got away with coning people for years as nobody knew that much about the EU until the Referendum came along.  they do now so those statements and arguments haven't aged well. would the RMT like to defend their anti EU are against workers rights statement now. I doubt it, they put that statement out knowing people wouldn't know that much about the EU so like Frottage they would get away with whatever anti EU workers rights smear they wanted.
The lefts +rights anti EU stance is based on one belief and everything else argued is to justify the argument to leave. it's the principle of nobody should be able to tell us what to do, that's it really, all the other arguments made are searched for so they can make a argument to leave. problem for the left, Frottage+ hard right Torys was they couldn't make a sound true argument to leave the EU so we ended up with lies and propaganda.

The Chinese wouldn’t be able to dump cheap steel on us because we could impose import tariffs. Things like subsidies and tariffs were there to protect workers from a race to the bottom.

[reddebs]

Well if you want to go by the letter of the law yes, but there is no doubt that the single market is a Thatcherite construct, the so called 4 freedoms on which its built are a corporate CEO’s dream.
I get the hands across the ocean sentiment of many remainers but if it comes at the expense of those at the bottom of our own society then for some it’s too big a price to pay.

How do you think those at the bottom of society are doing now we've been out for nearly 7yrs?

[reddebs]

The Chinese wouldn’t be able to dump cheap steel on us because we could impose import tariffs. Things like subsidies and tariffs were there to protect workers from a race to the bottom.

And now?

[west_london_red]

Well at least some of his members work for nationalised railway companies. They just happen to French and Dutch. And for some reason Mick thinks that being a EU member prevents a state from nationalising parts of its economy.

The workers of Network Rail, London Underground and Transport for London say hello.

[Red46]

How do you think those at the bottom of society are doing now we've been out for nearly 7yrs?

Wages have definitely gone up in some sectors like construction etc. Leaving was never going to be easy though especially when we were in the EU for the best part of half a century. I actually thought we’d take a much bigger hit but things like Covid and this crisis in Ukraine which has allowed our government to worm its way back into the good books particularly of Eastern European countries with all its hard line talk on Russia has probably if not negated the effect of Brexit certainly muddied the waters somewhat.

[reddebs]

Wages have definitely gone up in some sectors like construction etc. Leaving was never going to be easy though especially when we were in the EU for the best part of half a century. I actually thought we’d take a much bigger hit but things like Covid and this crisis in Ukraine which has allowed our government to worm its way back into the good books particularly of Eastern European countries with all its hard line talk on Russia has probably if not negated the effect of Brexit certainly muddied the waters somewhat.

So it's not helped them at all then and you expected it to be worse?  But I thought the shit situation for those at the bottom was due to being in the EU?

Bit of a contradiction there isn't there?

[Red46]

And now?

Well we are f**ked because we haven’t got any heavy industry to protect with subsidies and tariffs. Where we were once the home of the industrial revolution and the workshop of the world, a country full of coal miners, shipbuilders and steelworkers etc, we are now a nation full of city spivs and latte sellers.

[oldfordie]

The Chinese wouldn’t be able to dump cheap steel on us because we could impose import tariffs. Things like subsidies and tariffs were there to protect workers from a race to the bottom.

Well the EU tried to impose sanctions on the Chinese for Steel dumping but the Torys vetoed the EU to allow the steel dumping to continue then smeared the EU with a pack of lies blaming the EU for allowing the steel dumping to continue.
If you believe the UK Government should have the right to subsidise UK companies then why do you think it's ok for the UK to impose sanctions on other country's when they do it? it's double standards, we should be able to subsidize our company's and export but no other countries should be allowed to do the same.

[Red46]

So it's not helped them at all then and you expected it to be worse?  But I thought the shit situation for those at the bottom was due to being in the EU?

Bit of a contradiction there isn't there?

No contradiction at all, it’s not rocket science, if you are at the bottom of society, you don’t have the shield of an education to protect yourself and the only thing you have to offer is your labour your life is made exponentially easier if you don’t have to compete with millions of migrant workers for things like jobs, housing, access to healthcare etc.

[reddebs]

Well we are f**ked because we haven’t got any heavy industry to protect with subsidies and tariffs. Where we were once the home of the industrial revolution and the workshop of the world, a country full of coal miners, shipbuilders and steelworkers etc, we are now a nation full of city spivs and latte sellers.

Exactly so how can we afford to buy it all in now we no longer have long standing trading partners? 

Economically it was disastrous for us to leave as we're no longer, if ever, capable of looking after ourselves.

Sure you can blame being a member for half a century on allowing those things to happen but leaving was never going to make it better or give us an advantage to be able to improve those at the bottom 🤷

[reddebs]

No contradiction at all, it’s not rocket science, if you are at the bottom of society, you don’t have the shield of an education to protect yourself and the only thing you have to offer is your labour your life is made exponentially easier if you don’t have to compete with millions of migrant workers for things like jobs, housing, access to healthcare etc.

And yet again, we've been out for nearly 7yrs where are all the jobs, houses and better healthcare?

[Red46]

Well the EU tried to impose sanctions on the Chinese for Steel dumping but the Torys vetoed the EU to allow the steel dumping to continue then smeared the EU with a pack of lies blaming the EU for allowing the steel dumping to continue.
If you believe the UK Government should have the right to subsidise UK companies then why do you think it's ok for the UK to impose sanctions on other country's when they do it? it's double standards, we should be able to subsidize our company's and export but no other countries should be allowed to do the same.

Not sure I follow what you are saying mate, I’m not against other countries subsidising their own industries that’s up to them, if their subsidised products are unreasonably cheap though to the point they’d threaten British jobs then I’d impose a tariff on them so their product would be the same price as the British product. If they had used cheap labour then there’s a good chance their product would be substandard anyway.

[Red46]

And yet again, we've been out for nearly 7yrs where are all the jobs, houses and better healthcare?

People at the bottom are no longer competing with millions of migrant workers for jobs and services, don’t you get how that works?

[reddebs]

People at the bottom are no longer competing with millions of migrant workers for jobs and services, don’t you get how that works?

Because they're now worse off than before despite lots more jobs and those that weren't at the bottom are also worse off and each time prices go up it sucks in even more.

So we've now got an even bigger "bottom" despite not having to compete with millions of immigrant workers.

They still can't get a doctor's appointment, or the operation they've been waiting for, or get their teeth sorted and they still can't afford to rent or buy a home.

[Yorkykopite]

The workers of Network Rail, London Underground and Transport for London say hello.

Two of those are municipalised aren't they?

[oldfordie]

Not sure I follow what you are saying mate, I’m not against other countries subsidising their own industries that’s up to them, if their subsidised products are unreasonably cheap though to the point they’d threaten British jobs then I’d impose a tariff on them so their product would be the same price as the British product. If they had used cheap labour then there’s a good chance their product would be substandard anyway.

You were saying we could impose sanctions on Chinese for steel dumping but think we should be able to subsidize uk Companys.
I noticed this point being made by the Torys as well, pointed it out at the time to people who supported Brexit, how they tore into the extreme lefts ideology on us subsidizing inefficient company's while cheering on Johnson when he said we will be able to subsidize UK companies due to Brexit, what's it got to do with other countries what we do, that's our business, that's true for services like the Railways and the NHS etc but it becomes their business as soon as we try to export those goods into their country's, why would we want to permanently subsidize a inefficient uncompetitive company's anyway.
 The most important point that has to be clarified is what exactly do you mean by State subsidies, is it a short term help of maybe a couple of years, I would call that State aid. EU would have no problem with that and would be even more sympathetic if the Company was based in a deprived area which would be devastated if company went under.
Are the subsidies you support permanent. given to prop up a inefficient company that can't compete without being propped up by the State.
The EU would hammer us with Sanctions, the WTO have a problem with State subsidization as well.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Because they're now worse off than before despite lots more jobs and those that weren't at the bottom are also worse off and each time prices go up it sucks in even more.

So we've now got an even bigger "bottom" despite not having to compete with millions of immigrant workers.

They still can't get a doctor's appointment, or the operation they've been waiting for, or get their teeth sorted and they still can't afford to rent or buy a home.

Thats due to having 12 years of Tories more than leaving the EU.