Topic: Lawless Liverpool?

[Son of Spion]

^
Further to what you said there, Gazalfc...

My qualifications are in counselling/therapy. In that field we believe the human being has an inate drive to self-actualise; to be the best we can be. Thing is, if our needs are not met and nurtured, if our environment is not conducive, then we can still actualise, but not always in ways deemed positive by society.

Basically, if your environment is a dog-eat-dog world, a violent world and a negative world, you can still be the best you can be in that world but it often won't be pretty or positive. You can, in effect, become very good at being very bad.

Even with no education, no qualifications and growing up in a broken home on a sink estate, a person can actualise by dragging themselves out of it and building a positive future for themselves. Or they could actualise by becoming the baddest, meanest criminal on the estate and feel good about themselves in that way instead. We all want to be the best we can be.

What we need is a society that looks at the value of things rather than the cost of things. A more nurturing society that allows people to self-actualise in a way that's both positive for them personally and society as a whole.

[Nobby Reserve]

I really don't know how we sort them out once they've reached the stage he and his type are at. The problem is multifaceted, and no doubt the answers are too.

For me, though, I believe prevention is far better and far less costly in the long-run than looking to cure things after they've gone to hell.

Sadly, I think our country is run in such a lazy, neglectful way. Systems and people are run into the ground until they break, rather than nurtured and well maintained so they don't. We all then stand around looking puzzled over how to fix the mess that's been left to fester and grow.

I think early intervention is necessary. Support available for those who are going off the rails early on. Also punishment for those who refuse to address their ways. Good education is crucial. The issue of how antisocial behavior impacts communities should also be looked at and discussed in schools.

I remember the start of the 80s and the neglect that was rampant back then. I saw children acting up without consequence. Being cheeky turned into being abusive. Being abusive turned into being violent. Being like that led to entitlement. That entitlement led to them then breaking into cars and stealing radios and contents. That progressed to then stealing the actual cars are ragging them. That turned into then burning them out. Getting away with all that led to them burgling houses and shops locally. That then led to them robbing cars and travelling elsewhere to burgle and rob. Only then did they really start coming onto the radar of the police. Even then it tended to be a slap on the wrist.

Drugs came into the equation. Some became addled addicts, some became dealers. The money and the need to acquire money in that world keeps the ever growing spiral of decline and crime going. All due to neglect. All down to not addressing things at grass roots level, but waiting until the problem is well established and rooted.

Where was the intervention? Where was the focus on prevention? Where was the willingness to address issues as they arise rather than waiting until it's too late?

What we now have are emotionally immature manchildren running round with machine guns protecting high value drugs rackets. Not long ago these were scruffy ketwigged dickheads hanging around outside shops being a nuisance. Society then stands back and let's them quickly work through the cycle I mentioned earlier without any serious intervention until it's far too late.

Other things that don't help is the media and TV glamourisation of violence, gangsterism and the fetishisation of guns. Too many people these days can't separate all that from real life, and they want to emulate it.

I agree with all of this.

You touched on getting a 'slap on the wrist' and I think this plays a massive part. These people know there is little consequence to their law-breaking and scumbaggery. Even if the police bother/are able to catch them, even if the CPS decide to prosecute, the punishment is pitifully inadequate.

I'd love to see a US-style 'three strikes' system. Three convictions for criminal acts of a certain level (ie, not petty shoplifting or things of that calibre) and it's an automatic long prison sentence.

I also think the school system is flawed, with too much focus on a one-size-fits-all focus on academia. There needs to be more vocational options from yr9/10. Proper practical training and qualifications in trades and other practical vocations (alongside some academic study). Keep kids interested and engaged in education who aren't academically driven, whilst also given them the incentive of a good job in adulthood.

And legalise drugs, selling them from licenced outlets. They're dirt cheap to produce; most of the 'street' costs come from people along the chain taking a margin that's padded out with a 'danger money' premium. It removes the [by far] biggest and most lucrative income for gangs, one that is the entire basis of their existence. Tax the sold drugs like alcohol is; use that money to fund both provision of very addictive (heroin, crack, etc) drugs to registered addicts, and proper rehab for those wanting to get clean. Make prison sentencing for illegal supply of drugs way harsher, with more police time able to be devoted to finding and arresting these scum.

[redbyrdz]

"Three strikes" is a terrible system. All it does is trapping people in a prison cycle. They become institutionalised and even more likely to commit further crimes. Harsher punishments as deterrents don't work. You only need to look at the US crime rates to see that it doesn't. What is needed is early, fast intervention, with the aim of rehabilitating, especially of young offenders. Prison doesn't do that, they need to live in normal society to learn that a different life is possible.

[Terry de Niro]

This scumbag is 23, so say he gets say a 30-year stretch.
He gets out when he's 53?
10 years younger than I am now.

British Justice at its finest.   

[Nobby Reserve]

"Three strikes" is a terrible system. All it does is trapping people in a prison cycle. They become institutionalised and even more likely to commit further crimes. Harsher punishments as deterrents don't work. You only need to look at the US crime rates to see that it doesn't. What is needed is early, fast intervention, with the aim of rehabilitating, especially of young offenders. Prison doesn't do that, they need to live in normal society to learn that a different life is possible.

If that was the only measure brought in to address the scourge of shithouses, from anti-social wankers to 'gangsters', then I'd agree your argument has some merit.

You need to address both ends - provide opportunities to become functioning members of society, but also bring in disincentives to commit criminal acts.

Someone that's been found guilty of 3 criminal acts is already in that criminal cycle. They have no fear of being caught because there's minimal peril in being found guilty - a modest fine they'd be allowed to pay off from their benefit at 50p/week or a community service order that they ignore.

Pussy-footing around with these scum just encourages them to ignore the law systematically more seriously.

[courty61]

This scumbag is 23, so say he gets say a 30-year stretch.
He gets out when he's 53?
10 years younger than I am now.

British Justice at its finest.   

If he doesn't get a whole life tariff, he'll still get life. But with a minimum term probably in the high 30s/low 40s.

Doesn't mean he'll be out at say 64, just when he is eligible for parole. And even if he did see the light of day, he would be on licence for the rest of his life

[jonnypb]

Minimum of 48 years before becoming eligible for parole.

[gazzalfc]

Bet he tires to get it reduced.

48 is quite high which is good.

The interesting point the judge made about there being 9 shootings in the Wirral before December last year and 0 since

[mikeb58]

Was he in the dock for the sentencing or did he shit out like Cashman?

[Armchair expert]

Good riddance to the cowardly shithouse 5ft 5 rat who obviously acted the hard man with a gun in his hand ..what sort of lowlife fires a gun 12 times into a packed pub

[TheRedBaron]

Was he in the dock for the sentencing or did he shit out like Cashman?

He was in the dock.

[Nobby Reserve]

Bet he tires to get it reduced.

48 is quite high which is good.

The interesting point the judge made about there being 9 shootings in the Wirral before December last year and 0 since

48 years is the minimum tariff we should be seeing for all murders.

Personally, I think we should start with life meaning life for convicted murderers. With no possibility of parole, no need for rehabilitation. Keep them in special prisons where they're only given the most basic levels of food dictated by the law, only allowed the most basic amenities in their cells (thin mattress on a concrete slab); only allowed the bare minimum of time outside the cell - alone into small, caged, outside exercise yards, one prisoner at a time in each; only allowed the bare minimum of visitation rights. No tv's, XBoxes, etc.

[mikeb58]

He was in the dock.

Cheers, just watched the footage on YouTube. That Judge took no shit, loved that last line, an abrupt 'He can go down'

I'm not sure how true all these stories are about it being it being a 'cushy number behind bars'

For scum like him, it should be like everyday in Prison is one to dread, isn't that was 'punishment' is supposed to mean?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

48 years is the minimum tariff we should be seeing for all murders.

Personally, I think we should start with life meaning life for convicted murderers. With no possibility of parole, no need for rehabilitation. Keep them in special prisons where they're only given the most basic levels of food dictated by the law, only allowed the most basic amenities in their cells (thin mattress on a concrete slab); only allowed the bare minimum of time outside the cell - alone into small, caged, outside exercise yards, one prisoner at a time in each; only allowed the bare minimum of visitation rights. No tv's, XBoxes, etc.

Is this as punishment (revenge) or a deterrent?

Evidence suggests that no level of sentence (inc death penalty) actually acts as a deterrent, partly because most murders are unplanned.

[Nobby Reserve]

Is this as punishment (revenge) or a deterrent?

Evidence suggests that no level of sentence (inc death penalty) actually acts as a deterrent, partly because most murders are unplanned.

Both, plus getting scumbags off the street to protect the rest of society.

I oppose capital punishment, by the way.

I just consider that we have but one life. For some shitbag to end that life is the ultimate crime. But it's not just the deceased. The family and friends are given a life sentence of grief, too.

Anyone who takes the life of another either deliberately or through reckless & violent actions, deserves zero sympathy. In such circumstances, an element of punishment is more than warranted.

[Terry de Niro]

One less scumbag off the streets for a good while.
Any news on his fellow scumbag?

[gazzalfc]

One less scumbag off the streets for a good while.
Any news on his fellow scumbag?

He got 9 years

[reddebs]

Not Liverpool related but the twat who torched his neighbours flat killing a mum and 2 kids in Nottingham has been given 44yrs today.

[mikeb58]

Not Liverpool related but the twat who torched his neighbours flat killing a mum and 2 kids in Nottingham has been given 44yrs today.

What was the reason for doing that's, that's shocking. 44 years isn't long enough it that was predmediated, has to be a whole life order.

[John C]

Reading on the Echo about this lad. Been in trouble with the police since he was 14 basically.
Zero qualifications. Has a few kids himself.
Got me thinking, how the hell do we sort people like him out?

Of course some people are born to be criminals. In a perfect society there'll always be incidents like this.
Others are born in to broken family's and poverty. Others get dragged in to shit by peers. At age 14 it was possible local authority intervention may have prevented his societal decline. But he grew up during austerity when social services and youth support took the biggest hits.
That's not an excuse for his actions, but to answer your question, stop cuts in local government and people get a better chance in life.

[reddebs]

What was the reason for doing that's, that's shocking. 44 years isn't long enough it that was predmediated, has to be a whole life order.

Supposedly annoyed that the bins were left in his way. 

Most likely a race hate crime as the family were from Gambia, the kids were 1 and 3yrs old and dad was in America working.

He set fire with petrol through the letter box, waited till it took hold then took his dog for a walk.  Tried saying he thought they were out but neighbours heard her screaming and tried rescuing them. 

[mikeb58]

Supposedly annoyed that the bins were left in his way. 

Most likely a race hate crime as the family were from Gambia, the kids were 1 and 3yrs old and dad was in America working.

He set fire with petrol through the letter box, waited till it took hold then took his dog for a walk.  Tried saying he thought they were out but neighbours heard her screaming and tried rescuing them. 

That's disgusting, can't see why he should ever be released, but at least the long sentences handed out to scum like him, Cashman and Chapman are a step in the right direction,  it's what the public demand, shite like them put away for a very long time

[reddebs]

That's disgusting, can't see why he should ever be released, but at least the long sentences handed out to scum like him, Cashman and Chapman are a step in the right direction,  it's what the public demand, shite like them put away for a very long time

Just need to sort out the domestic abusers, peodoes and rapists, especially those still serving as cops 👍

[CHOPPER]

Just need to sort out the domestic abusers, peodoes and rapists, especially those still serving as cops 👍

Can we leave the Catholic Church out of this please.

[So… Howard Philips]

Men and boys charged over Knowsley hotel asylum disorder;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66196144

[So… Howard Philips]

12 month referral order for causing a death. Shocking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66239695

[Terry de Niro]

12 month referral order for causing a death. Shocking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66239695

That is truly pathetic.

Sends out a message to other wannabe thugs that it's OK to batter some poor bastard to death.
British justice at its fucking worst.

[So… Howard Philips]

That is truly pathetic.

Sends out a message to other wannabe thugs that it's OK to batter some poor bastard to death.
British justice at its fucking worst.

It’s the inconsistency that gets me though. Maybe in this case there wasn’t cast iron evidence such as CCTV or mobile phone footage so there was room for doubt but you see plenty of cases with a much more significant sentence.

Probably the fact he didn’t use a knife and only his fists was taken into account as mitigation.

[Nobby Reserve]

That is truly pathetic.

Sends out a message to other wannabe thugs that it's OK to batter some poor bastard to death.
British justice at its fucking worst.

Agree.

An utter shitbag. No doubt his parents are equally appalling. Should be doing a long (20+ year) stretch.

[AlphaDelta]

Heartbreaking, 69 years old, probably seen so much in his life, only for some maggot to snuff it out with a hiding, for what?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

That is truly pathetic.

Sends out a message to other wannabe thugs that it's OK to batter some poor bastard to death.
British justice at its fucking worst.

That isn't what I took from the article at all.

There clearly wasn't enough causative evidence to link the burglary/assault to the subsequent death of the victim. Hence the charge of GBH and not murder/manslaughter.

As a society, how do we want to be treating 15 year-olds with learning difficulties/autism on their first contact with the criminal justice system in circumstances like this? Lock them up and throw away the key?

I've far more faith in the British justice system (whether that be through the charging decisions of the CPS or the sentencing decisions of the courts) to deal with these cases appropriately than I do members of the public, RAWK members (and indeed myself) included.

[So… Howard Philips]

That isn't what I took from the article at all.

There clearly wasn't enough causative evidence to link the burglary/assault to the subsequent death of the victim. Hence the charge of GBH and not murder/manslaughter.

As a society, how do we want to be treating 15 year-olds with learning difficulties/autism on their first contact with the criminal justice system in circumstances like this? Lock them up and throw away the key?

I've far more faith in the British justice system (whether that be through the charging decisions of the CPS or the sentencing decisions of the courts) to deal with these cases appropriately than I do members of the public, RAWK members (and indeed myself) included.

But what will a 12 month referral order achieve? This may be his first contact with the criminal justice system but a pretty significant one that has cost an innocent person his life.

I hope that the culprit keeps out of trouble in the future but I wonder how safe elderly people in his immediate community feel?

[ToneLa]

He's 15 so not life sentence.

I'd want 15 years. Lose his best days. Come out at 30, free
 That's more like justice

[gazzalfc]

Nurse Lucy Letby found guilty of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder 6 more. Found not guilty of 2 counts of attempted murder and couldn't reach a verdict on a further 4.

Government have ordered an independent inquiry.

[gazzalfc]

I've only ever caught snippets of the trial on the BBC and the Echo. But apart from a rambling piece of paper she wrote and looking up the families on Facebook, there was never really evidence above the fact that she was working when those babies died.

Already been painted as the next Rosemary West and Myra Hindley

[Elzar]

I've only ever caught snippets of the trial on the BBC and the Echo. But apart from a rambling piece of paper she wrote and looking up the families on Facebook, there was never really evidence above the fact that she was working when those babies died.

Already been painted as the next Rosemary West and Myra Hindley

There is a thread on her case specifically, but worth noting that the hospitals will have detailed trails of the babies care, causes of death, nurses in charge and that have seen to each child at what times as well as plenty of evidence from colleagues. Most of which won't make it out into public due to the sensitive nature of the data.

[ToneLa]

I've only ever caught snippets of the trial on the BBC and the Echo. But apart from a rambling piece of paper she wrote and looking up the families on Facebook, there was never really evidence above the fact that she was working when those babies died.

Already been painted as the next Rosemary West and Myra Hindley

I had her pegged as a serial killer ages ago, as she collected evidence, had an obsession, "returned to the scene of the crime" for real as she worked there but also the incredibly numerous Fedbook searches

You're being way, way, way, way too kind for the evidence on offer. It's not "a note", it's a confession she left out for the police to deliberately see on some level. She blamed a colleague who was working with her, but she was the only one working for all deaths, which ended when she left the unit. There's reams of evidence.

And not a word for the poor families? Sigh. Learn some facts about it I reckon mate. She's a serial killer.

[gazzalfc]

I had her pegged as a serial killer ages ago, as she collected evidence, had an obsession, "returned to the scene of the crime" for real as she worked there but also the incredibly numerous Fedbook searches

You're being way, way, way, way too kind for the evidence on offer. It's not "a note", it's a confession she left out for the police to deliberately see on some level. She blamed a colleague who was working with her, but she was the only one working for all deaths, which ended when she left the unit. There's reams of evidence.

And not a word for the poor families? Sigh. Learn some facts about it I reckon mate. She's a serial killer.

So if you look at my post in the actual thread about it then you'll see my thoughts about it after the fact.

I thought she was innocent. Everything I read and saw during the trial all came down to feelings, coincidence, naturally sick babies and an underfunded NHS. My only thought on her being guilty was the fact that the crimes and the time and effort of that trial were too horrendous for her to be found not guilty. I said to my missus 'imagine if she was found not guilty after all that? Having to rebuild a life after being wrongly accused of multiple baby murders.'. Even her friends and family still believe she's innocent.

But now the BBC are breaking it down with her work rotas and natural and pharmaceutical insulin etc. There needed to be a smoking gun but this was always going to be the only thing they could get her on.

I'm sure there will be plenty of netflix documentaries and true crime podcasts trying to work her out. But feel sorry for those babies that have died and the jury that gave up nearly a year to sit through all the testimony and deliberations

If you read that thread then you'll see I'm not the only one uneasy about it. But well done for seeing her as a serial killer early on.

And what the fuck do I know anyway. Shes been found guilty after 10 months of trial to a jury of her peers.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Of course miscarriages of justice happen. The case sounded very complex, and I admit at various times following the trial thinking "wow she could actually be innocent, and how horrible that would be for her".

But she's been found guilty in a court of law. The jury took 12 weeks to deliberate the case after an incredibly extensive criminal investigation and trial, with the evidence clearly enough to convict. There is little reason to doubt the conviction.

All in all a devastating case.

[Statto Red]

Seems like a Stagecoach decker is victim of an arson attack in Elliot Street/Lime Street earlier this evening

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66623132