Topic: Lawless Liverpool?

[AlphaDelta]

This is probably just a sound off, but it’s something I think is worth getting the opinion of others for so here goes…..

Since when did it become so violent in this city. Has it always been this bad or has the introduction of internet news, social media made it more visible that we simply cant ignore it.

Sunday night, 8.30pm and in my street in Page Moss I hear the screech of tyres. Nothing unusual about that, especially around ours, so I ignored it.
A few minutes later I hear a repeated banging in the street, like someone kicking a wheelie bin about. Looking out the window I was shocked to see five men in balaclavas armed with bats and machetes smashing a van to bits. The van belongs to a boyfriend of a young girl who lives a few doors up, the boyfriend apparently got out the jug a few months ago.

Being the good son that I am, I shot downstairs and told my mum to stay in the kitchen and I locked the door (don’t know why, but just to be sure).
After a few seconds the mob drive off and the jailbird come out with his family to survey the damage and screech and shout!

Apparently less than 30 minutes later and only a mile or so up the road, a 17 year old is shot in the head whilst riding on the back of a bike and ends up dead. His mate rode off and left him dying in the gutter. Fooking 17 years of age?

The same weekend in our city a 14 year old kid is stabbed after a fight in Concert Square, another fella is stabbed in the stomach in a bar in Santa Chupitos and the other day a fella ends up fighting for his life after someone used his head as a casey over a row about a taxi.
Throw into the mix countless windows getting shot out on a daily basis, Police finding guns and ammo hidden in gardens.

The thing now is, nobody is shocked or surprised about a kid being shot dead on a Sunday night, it’s a cliché but if this happened 10, maybe 20 years ago then it was huge news. What’s gone wrong since, is it a generation thing? A lack of respect for the people they share the streets with? Is it a case of they are nothing but shithouse cowards who cant settle a dispute with talking or fists, so resort to killing someone? Is it a case of the Police being overstretched?

I genuinely believe that its getting out of control, that the Police are struggling to control the streets, or is it a case that our city has always been this violent?

[Red Beret]

I lived in Huyton/Page Moss for the first 26 years of my life.  It destroyed my parents' health and helped make me the man I am today - stuck on ESA with anxiety and a personality disorder.

Place is a shit hole.  Get out if you can.

[Fiasco]

I'm less than a couple of miles down the road from where the kid was shot. All I can say is that I'm surprised it has taken this long for someone to die in this way (I know there have been young lads shot and killed in the past few years, but specifically this way involving a motorkbike given how ubiquitous they are). I don't know if the city has gotten more violent; I tend not to pay much notice to crime stats generally as they are not worth the paper they are written on half the time. However I don't feel any different in terms of safety now than I did a decade or so ago. There are still places I wont venture out to alone, I'm wary of certain areas and situations, I don't walk past gangs of lads in the night time. Common sense you might say, but that's how it is.

Gun crime does seem to be getting out of hand though. I don't think these kids understand the severity of what they are doing by blasting at each other and by blasting a property as if they are merely throwing a stone at a window. In many cases there is nothing down for them. They have a terrible upbringing, they don't have any money or anything nice growing up and through no fault of their own most of the time they haven't had any good role models to look up to. Nor have they had any good moral arbiter and that extends to parents and guardians. There is no sense of right or wrong. Inner-city and suburban Liverpool has been abandoned in many ways and when you get kids with no hope, no aspiration, no good guidance around them and then add in a sprinkling of no fear instilled in them then you get mayhem. It isn't rocket science. These kids who go off the rails are often decent lads, not all of them are born evil. I've seen good lads, really good lads from by my area with so much potential get in with the wrong crowd and their lives have gone to shit. Drugs, guns, prison, shootings, you name it. It is sad to see.

I only speak from experience. For me, seeing shootings and roads taped off has been the norm for me growing up. Seeing police chases is normal. Seeing burned out vehicles decorating the local landscape has been normal. Being stopped and searched aggressively for no other reason than being a young lad on a certain estate has been normal. Nothing seems to change but what are you gonna do? This isn't something you can fix overnight. The police are seen as an enemy and I firmly believe it is a two-way street in that sense. There is an assumption of guilt even when you have done nothing wrong. I remember police planting a bag of weed on me and my mates a few years ago just because they wanted a reason to frisk us down and get our details. There is rotten morals and actions from all sides, and of course some are worse than others. But how do you stop it? I don't know, because sadly this isn't anything new. Certain things get worse, other issues die down. Broadly speaking though things don't alter too much and young lives are lost, families are torn apart and we continue to ask the same questions.

[Upinsmoke]

It's mindless violence. The police aren't about. A 12 year old was arrested in possession of a gun by ours the other day. What's he gonna get, slap on the wrist. There's no deterrent. Crime and drugs have always existed but now it's done in broad daylight. They don't give a shit. It's like becoming more like America in that way. Police don't care about low level dealers and violence until someone is killed or almost killed.

I don't let my kids play on in the street, fuck that shit, just so they can get caught in the middle of some tosser pulling a wheelie on a trials bike. Nobheads.

[gazzam1963]

I'd say 90 % or more of these incidents are are drug or gang related and most are both of them .though drugs have been around a long time it's more prevalent now than ever from addiction , recreational use or nights in town and use by all ages from 12thru to 60 plus it's THE scourge of society these days And this is the knock on effect

[Brissyred]

It's not new, one of the reasons I came over here was due to my wife and son seeing some bloke being blown away with a shotgun in broad daylight at the shops on the way home from school.
Everyone knew who the shooter was, even the police, yet he was still driving round in his rolls 2yrs later......

[Pistolero]

you've got a twat of a username...

[AndyMuller]

Liverpool isn't a shit hole. Certain areas in Liverpool are a shit hole but as a whole it's still a boss city.

The likes of Blackpool, Wigan, Birmingham are fucking shit holes.

[CraigDS]

Liverpool isn't a shit hole. Certain areas in Liverpool are a shit hole but as a whole it's still a boss city.

Much like a lot of other major cities. They all have their bad areas which are in a pretty poor state, but then they all have nicer areas too and for the most part aren't bad at all.

I can't say I've ever really felt unsafe in Liverpool.

[The Gulleysucker]

It's a relatively small amount of people who are dealing and profiting from the drug trade and causing the violent grief, probably a few thousand max.

They'll be the ones that will be effected if drugs became legalised, not the majority of people or even most drug users in Liverpool who will be able to get their fix from a chemists rather than some shady character.

The local economy won't be trashed (any more than it is) as the king pins of the trade offshore the vast majority of their ill gotten gains anyway to places they think are safe and out of reach, they have to as the UK banks and revenue and then the police would be onto to them pronto if they don't.

They're still living on borrowed time though, they'll be nabbed someday by computers on the look out for financial anomolies or they'll meet up with a real hardcase from South America or Eastern Europe who'll waste them in a blink of an eye.

I expect the more enterprising of them will simply try and adapt and, for example if legalised, instead obtain surplus legalised drugs here to then export to other places at a profit instead.

[Red Viper]

Sure the city has it's problems and bad areas but labelling the whole place as a shit hole is just bollocks, frankly.

I'm from St Helens originally but have lived in Liverpool for nearly 6 years now and I can tell you I feel a whole lot safer in Liverpool than St Helens, now that place is a shit hole.

[dave 5516]

The whole of the city and all it's occupants?

Liverpool is no different from any other major city and has a crime rate that the last time I saw stats for crime in the UK was 21st in the country for all crimes, lower than Manchester, Newcastle and Burnley. It can't be that bad then, eh.

[Big Red Richie]

There's known crime, and the perception of crime.

If it's on your doorstep 24-7, then you're going to perceive it to be worse then maybe someone who's a way away from it, or doesn't see it.


It doesn't mean one area is any worse than another, specifically, just that you can only react and comment to what you see.

[Titi Camara]

It's a wider issue and one not specific to Liverpool.

Appreciating that it would create other problems, I'd still suggest the best way to combat the gang/drug culture is to legalise drugs. Let the state sell them in a controlled way.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives.

[thekitkatshuffler]

Human life no longer has any value.

Years of Tory rule have hammered home the point.

[Roady]

Not sure what it boils down to. To say it's a shithole is ridiculous. There's some deprived areas in Liverpool like there is in every city you can name. To me though kids know what they can get away with nowadays. Petty shit like hanging around in gangs and harassing people simply wouldn't be tolerated in my day. you'd be dragged off by the ear by an elder to your home where your parents would thanks the person who brought you home and bollock you. Gangs on corners would be moved on by police etc, doesn't happen any more. Kids know what they get away with and know their rights.simplistic perhaps. Lots of kids brought up nowadays no no better than to get involved in gangs drugs etc because they've nothing to aspire too. Thankfully it's a small minority and most kids are sound. It's nothing new the more serious side of crime , drugs shooting etc. Let's not forget in the 90s we had a stupid spate of shootings in two weeks, something like 16 or so. Thankfully most people are law abiding citizens. I don't think the police cuts have helped. I've not seen a bobby on the beat for 15 years I'd say.

[Red Viper]

Not sure what it boils down to. To say it's a shithole is ridiculous. There's some deprived areas in Liverpool like there is in every city you can name. To me though kids know what they can get away with nowadays. Petty shit like hanging around in gangs and harassing people simply wouldn't be tolerated in my day. you'd be dragged off by the ear by an elder to your home where your parents would thanks the person who brought you home and bollock you. Gangs on corners would be moved on by police etc, doesn't happen any more. Kids know what they get away with and know their rights.simplistic perhaps. Lots of kids brought up nowadays no no better than to get involved in gangs drugs etc because they've nothing to aspire too. Thankfully it's a small minority and most kids are sound. It's nothing new the more serious side of crime , drugs shooting etc. Let's not forget in the 90s we had a stupid spate of shootings in two weeks, something like 16 or so. Thankfully most people are law abiding citizens. I don't think the police cuts have helped. I've not seen a bobby on the beat for 15 years I'd say.

Probably right about police cuts. Don't think I've ever seen a Bobby out on foot outside of the city centre or near the ground on match days.

[The Gulleysucker]

Probably right about police cuts. Don't think I've ever seen a Bobby out on foot outside of the city centre or near the ground on match days.

That's largely true for most of the country these days.

The only time you tend to see them out and about is if there's a flap on, and then they are more often than not wandering around equipped as if on patrol in Helmand.

I've moaned before on here about how it's effecting rural communities, I'm lucky if I see a policeman once a year down here in mid Devon these days, and that's only briefly usually as they are driving past to somewhere. 

There's a few pretend ones, PCSO's in the local towns, but real ones are incredibly thin on the ground these days.

[ArthurDooley82]

Society has gone to shit as we are in competition/fight over the crumbs the establishment give us from there pie. It all boils down to money/drugs 90% of the time and the other 10% is people escaping by using alcohol/drugs to escape modern society.

Plus you get rats who know they can’t have a go so they resort to the easy option of using guns and knives because they are shithouses and want a name in the grafting scene.

It’s only going to get worse with all of the cuts to the police in this lovely money obsessed i’m Alright jack fuck every body else but me Tory society.

Salt of the earth is being eroded in society by neoliberalism.

[L8Craig]

It feels like it has became worse over the past couple of years.
Car thefts and burglaries included.

I've just bought a house in Prescot so i'm only a few minutes away from where the 17 year old was shot in the head on Lyme Cross Road. A 54 year old fella was stabbed too a night or two ago.

Statistics for crime must certainly be up all over the country. I've got a car which is easily stolen (gone in 30 seconds) and they've been taken all over the country, Birmingham and Essex being hotspots, so it isn't just Liverpool where crime seems an issue.

Less visible police. People losing jobs and people losing their access to welfare checks being the main contributors imo.

It seems like it's a case of 'that's life' and just get on with it as it is the norm these days.

Pretty fucked up.

[Rysoph76]

I would agree that it is not limited to Liverpool by any means. I don't live in Liverpool any more but I grew up in Kirkby and to anyone who visited, they would think that was a complete dump and my mum would always want me to drive people to the house (if they were coming for the first time) via the route that avoided the Park Brow shops cos they were mostly boarded up and she was embarrassed. I never really felt unsafe out and about but it did affect me in that my aunty who I lived with would get very upset and angry about the kids hanging round in the street and that would create an atmosphere in the house and so I would frequently go up to my bedroom when I was younger to look out of the window to check if lads were in the street and I always felt tense if they were because I knew a ball hitting the window or something similar would kick off a row. Both my cousins who live and were brought up in West Vale have been in and out of trouble their entire lives and one of them has said to me at family events that part of the problem is that he doesn't know anyone in the area who is 'straight' so his whole life is spent with people who are, in some way or another, criminals and it is almost impossible to escape the life he is in (they are both in their late 40s). They have both been in jail so finding jobs is hard. Neither of them have any money so the potential to try and make an easy quid is always there and so it's just a vicious circle.

Been back to Kirkby and Liverpool many times since I moved and hard to say whether it has got any worse but I do remember a few years back being parked up in Broadway (where i've been hundreds of times taking my aunties to the bingo there) and I was sat in the car while my mum took my kids (who were probably 4 or 5 at the time) to grab a couple of bits from the shops and there was a group of lads about 14-16 that were just behaving in a way that made me very uneasy. They were acting as if they owned the place and just had no respect for anyone or anything and I had a bad feeling that something was about to kick off so I got out the car and went and got my mum and kids back in the car and left. I'd never felt that way before in that area in all the times i'd been there (although to be fair i'd never been there with my kids before so maybe I was more sensitive to it).

Part of the problem for me is that jail/youth detention for kids with a certain background is not a deterrent. To me, I would fucking hate jail because that is not the upbringing i've had but if you have had a hard childhood with no role models and you see all the shit on the news about these lads having parties in their cells, they think it's all fun and games and it seems like more and more that these lads are running amok in jail so there is nothing for them to be afraid of if you have fuck all on the outside. Down where I am, there was a report where the young London gangs were seeing being sent to Feltham was a badge of honour and was something that gave you respect when you got out so some of them were actively looking to go there so what do you do with someone like that? It's like a human hand grenade walking round just waiting for the right situation in which they can explode.

[liversaint]

The Echo doesn't help with its portrayal of some of the low life scum as glamorous gangsters and publicising turf wars.

[TravisBickle]

Never felt unsafe in this city. I've lived in town, Wavertree and Toxteth and I've always felt perfectly safe. There are areas I'd avoid at night for sure but that's no different to any other city. Liverpool city centre is as safe as it gets I'd say, especially in relation to London and Manchester.

 My female mates all say they feel perfectly comfortable by themselves in town at night. That's rare.

 

[AlphaDelta]

Looking back at my OP, it was probably just a bit of frustration on my part that on a Sunday night a group of lads in balaclavas can smash a van to bits, yet its hardly raised an eyebrow in our street, then the same night a kid is shot dead and again, in Huyton its hardly been mentioned.

I do feel safe in the city, I've always felt safe, but I do consider myself a streetwise person.

I think its frustration because I work for my money, have an honest job and yet little bastards half my age are strutting around in flash cars and with wads of cash.

[Titi Camara]

I think its frustration because I work for my money, have an honest job and yet little bastards half my age are strutting around in flash cars and with wads of cash.

Fuck em. The chances of them keeping any of that are pretty much zero buddy.

[CraigDS]

Fuck em. The chances of them keeping any of that are pretty much zero buddy.

Plus whilst it may seem like it's all rosey on the outside, it rarely is.

A lot of it is for show, they'll be living with a fear of rivals which you don't have, it's not exactly a long term guaranteed income.

[Titi Camara]

100% Correct Craig.

I'd prefer to be a law-abiding (for the most part), honest member of society that works for a living and makes a contribution.

Self-worth is where you find it but it's certainly not to be found out there selling drugs in a gang.

[rob1966]

Plus whilst it may seem like it's all rosey on the outside, it rarely is.

A lot of it is for show, they'll be living with a fear of rivals which you don't have, it's not exactly a long term guaranteed income.

Its guaranteed that the ones I knew growing up on Tower Hill in the 70's and 80's are either in jail or dead.

[Brissyred]

Its guaranteed that the ones I knew growing up on Tower Hill in the 70's and 80's are either in jail or dead.

The smart ones use the money to buy legit business's and go straight.

[CraigDS]

The smart ones use the money to buy legit business's and go straight.

They never really go straight.

[rob1966]

The smart ones use the money to buy legit business's and go straight.

None of them were smart 

[Brissyred]

None of them were smart 

I knew a few..........

[Upinsmoke]

Another fatality last night in town. Happening more and more often, wether it's knife crime or gun crime and to make matters worse people are not being brought to justice, continuously getting away with it.

[AlphaDelta]

Another fatality last night in town. Happening more and more often, wether it's knife crime or gun crime and to make matters worse people are not being brought to justice, continuously getting away with it.

Read that, a kid out celebrating his 21st Birthday. That Empire is a shithole, deserves closing.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Read that, a kid out celebrating his 21st Birthday. That Empire is a shithole, deserves closing.

Jesus. I feel for the parents. Imagine bringing your kid up for 21 years and then some knobhead does him in in a bar, fucks sake. Heartbreaking.

[kesey]

Cocaine.

[sirKennyDaggers]

Jesus. I feel for the parents. Imagine bringing your kid up for 21 years and then some knobhead does him in in a bar, fucks sake. Heartbreaking.

Yep,a hate it when its the good lads who are victims to these knobheads.

[ScottScott]

Murder in Prescot last night, 29 year old out for a few drinks, on his way home. Group of c*nts on scramblers start giving him and his girlfriend abuse and when he tells them to leave them alone one of them stabs him in the neck and he dies. Things are getting worse, more needs to be done. Absolutely sickening

Knew the lad personally and he was one of the nicest lads you'll ever meet and now he's dead because some scally c*nt thinks he's mad with a knife and can't take being told to stop abusing a couple

[Fiasco]

Cocaine.

Is the poison that is ruining so many things in this city. I can't speak for past generations, but on a night out now (even down the local) it seems that the majority are taking it. It stops me from wanting to socialise because most of them cant handle it. I don't look down on people taking drugs as such, but when you are taking that shite and ruining everyone else's fun then it becomes an issue.

I don't think people quite realise how endemic the use of cocaine is in this city now. It is everywhere. People who I never thought would go near the stuff cannot have a few pints without taking it. From what I gather from friends who take it, the purity is increasing all the time. Ah well, what can you do?

Another lad, 29, was stabbed to death in Prescot last night. It has been really depressing lately will all these gun and knife murders.

[Crosby Nick]

It’s not just a Liverpool thing. Living in London seems like every week (usually more frequent than that) someone gets stabbed. A lot of it used to feel gang related but now feels a lot more random.