Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[killer-heels]

Looks like the Unions have forced Labour to go back on their original workers rights policies. No doubt Mandelson will put his head up to moan about it.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Looks like the Unions have forced Labour to go back on their original workers rights policies. No doubt Mandelson will put his head up to moan about it.

Thats good
Got any more details?

I dont suppose Elphicke has had the whip removed ?

[RedDeadRejection]

Looks like the Unions have forced Labour to go back on their original workers rights policies. No doubt Mandelson will put his head up to moan about it.

Hoping it was always the case they were going to, but kept it quiet in an election year. Appeasing the right is a full time job with Labour at the mo. Glad the union forced a stance from the overly cautious Starmer.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Hoping it was always the case they were going to, but kept it quiet in an election year. Appeasing the right is a full time job with Labour at the mo. Glad the union forced a stance from the overly cautious Starmer.

Appease the right, fuck the left

[thaddeus]

There's nothing inherently wrong with those but they hardly set the pulse racing.

A state owned energy provider is probably the most exciting but I still expect them to water that one down when it comes to it.

The final pledge is an interesting one as it seems like teacher retention is the bigger problem - although measures for that may be part of the same pledge.  My two sons are both taught by a teaching assistant for one day a week as their primary school is at least one teacher short.  They've also effectively lost their headteacher as she's now split across two schools in the trust and the other is in special measures so occupies all of her time.

I very much appreciate that it's going to take a long time to reverse the decline of 14 years of Tory rule and maybe that's as ambitious as Labour can really be.  I worry that they're just going to slightly slow the decline and spin that as success.

[PaulF]

There's nothing inherently wrong with those but they hardly set the pulse racing.

A state owned energy provider is probably the most exciting but I still expect them to water that one down when it comes to it.

The final pledge is an interesting one as it seems like teacher retention is the bigger problem - although measures for that may be part of the same pledge.  My two sons are both taught by a teaching assistant for one day a week as their primary school is at least one teacher short.  They've also effectively lost their headteacher as she's now split across two schools in the trust and the other is in special measures so occupies all of her time.

I very much appreciate that it's going to take a long time to reverse the decline of 14 years of Tory rule and maybe that's as ambitious as Labour can really be.  I worry that they're just going to slightly slow the decline and spin that as success.

3. wtf is Border Command?  Sounds like it should be headed up by Buzz Lightyear
5.Crack down on antisocial behaviour.  . Kind of wishy washy meaningless claptrap that one.
6. Schools do seem to be "failing".  If the recruitment hinges around fair pay and working conditions, and investment in buildings , then yes ok.  But it's not going to be cheap.

1,2 and 4 I like

[Fitzy.]

Great British Energy sounds great. Not sure how this actually manifests in the real world, especially if the energy lobby gets stuck into politicians, client media etc. When you're protecting huge bonuses and dividends, you're going to move heaven and earth to protect your market share.

[Lusty]

There's nothing inherently wrong with those but they hardly set the pulse racing.

A state owned energy provider is probably the most exciting but I still expect them to water that one down when it comes to it.

The final pledge is an interesting one as it seems like teacher retention is the bigger problem - although measures for that may be part of the same pledge.  My two sons are both taught by a teaching assistant for one day a week as their primary school is at least one teacher short.  They've also effectively lost their headteacher as she's now split across two schools in the trust and the other is in special measures so occupies all of her time.

I very much appreciate that it's going to take a long time to reverse the decline of 14 years of Tory rule and maybe that's as ambitious as Labour can really be.  I worry that they're just going to slightly slow the decline and spin that as success.

I initially missed the 6 pledges at the top and thought that Starmer was promising cut price burgers and sausages.  Good enough to win my vote.

[kavah]

I initially missed the 6 pledges at the top and thought that Starmer was promising cut price burgers and sausages.  Good enough to win my vote.

 

[west_london_red]

It’s a start, but not much more.

40,000 NHS appointments a week sounds like a lot but when you consider there’s millions of appointments a week, might not touch the sides i worry.

The energy company won’t make much difference to anything as the price of gas and electricity is set by external factors, I suspect all we will end up with a publicly owned Octopus Energy type of company and not much else, it definitely won’t be a vertically integrated provider.

Cracking down on Anti-Social behaviour is pretty vague, is there a target of some kind, reduce it by x% or increase police number by y%?

[Red-Soldier]

There's nothing inherently wrong with those but they hardly set the pulse racing.

A state owned energy provider is probably the most exciting but I still expect them to water that one down when it comes to it.

The final pledge is an interesting one as it seems like teacher retention is the bigger problem - although measures for that may be part of the same pledge.  My two sons are both taught by a teaching assistant for one day a week as their primary school is at least one teacher short.  They've also effectively lost their headteacher as she's now split across two schools in the trust and the other is in special measures so occupies all of her time.

I very much appreciate that it's going to take a long time to reverse the decline of 14 years of Tory rule and maybe that's as ambitious as Labour can really be.  I worry that they're just going to slightly slow the decline and spin that as success.

Unless there are fundamental changes across the board, and we remain out of the Customs Union and Single Market, I think a slower rate of decline, is all that will be achieved.  I know some are hoping for Cool Britannia, part 2.  There's no doubt there will be a collective sigh of relief, when the bastards are ousted.

By cracking down on anti-social behaviour, does he mean create and properly fund, youth services.......?

[lobsterboy]

Hard to be too ambitious when you are inheriting nearly 4 trillion in debt thanks to 14 years of Tory spivs, crooks, conmen, traitors and devious little rat men like Sunak.

[PaulF]

Hard to be too ambitious when you are inheriting nearly 4 trillion in debt thanks to 14 years of Tory spivs, crooks, conmen, traitors and devious little rat men like Sunak.

I wonder if there will be a 'sorry, theres no money left' note.

[west_london_red]

Hard to be too ambitious when you are inheriting nearly 4 trillion in debt thanks to 14 years of Tory spivs, crooks, conmen, traitors and devious little rat men like Sunak.

100% that needs to be factored into any criticism (including my own), were absolutely fucked and there is no sugar coating it.

[CowboyKangaroo]

3. wtf is Border Command?  Sounds like it should be headed up by Buzz Lightyear
5.Crack down on antisocial behaviour.  . Kind of wishy washy meaningless claptrap that one.
6. Schools do seem to be "failing".  If the recruitment hinges around fair pay and working conditions, and investment in buildings , then yes ok.  But it's not going to be cheap.

1,2 and 4 I like

I prefer Border Command to the existing Border Force name (though it is a bit confusing as Border Force is denoted as a 'command') - I wonder if this will result in a transition of power from HMRC (who in all but name organises most of border operations, including procurement*) back to the Home Office. That said, from the small amount of detail offered, it seems to be colluding with the right wing dogwhistle that our primary issue is small boats rather than goods smuggling.

*The constitutional arrangements behind this are complex - Border Force is officially under the Home Office, but as most border law enforcement issues are customs related, HMRC is usually the hand which drives policy.

The 'keep taxes low' part of the economic stability pledge gives me pause for thought. Whilst it is true we have a very high tax burden at present, it seems somewhat unrealistic to achieve the necessary improvements in public services without significant short term tax increases on middle earners and above.

[CowboyKangaroo]

Cracking down on Anti-Social behaviour is pretty vague, is there a target of some kind, reduce it by x% or increase police number by y%?

More neighbourhood police, harsher penalties for offenders and new youth network hubs. A pledge of nugatory value imo.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Cracking down on Anti-Social behaviour is pretty vague, is there a target of some kind, reduce it by x% or increase police number by y%?

He once started talking about the smell of weed ruining lives. He must be hiring a lot of people if he can crackdown on smells.

[Robinred]

I understand the lukewarm responses. I just feel that Labour’s inner circle and advisers (almost certainly including Mandy) recognise the Overton window has shifted inexorably right since New Labour’s heyday. Brexit, Johnson etc. will have played their part, and I strongly suspect that there is nervousness about how brittle the poll leads might be. The consequences are what we are witnessing: a feeling that lifelong Labour voters are being taken for granted in order to ‘pander’ to those Tory voters who the leadership need to attract. A feeling that true Labour values are being watered down or sacrificed.

I’m disappointed that the caution seems to be so ingrained, but I think I understand the need for it. Time will tell.

[9 kemlyn road]

Hard to be too ambitious when you are inheriting nearly 4 trillion in debt thanks to 14 years of Tory spivs, crooks, conmen, traitors and devious little rat men like Sunak.

I want labour to be shouting this from the moment they take office and at every opportunity they have .tell everyone what the debt was when they left office in 2010 and show the country/world what the deficit is now.
All that austerity,cuts to services ,welfare all to get the deficit down was the tories mantra ,we must get the deficit down they said at every opportunity.eventually they stopped saying it as of course it just went up and up due to their disastrous ideology.
Every interview any labour politician is on ,pmqs in the house ,any current affairs programme,they must get it in what a mess  they left ,the debt ,the cuts must shouted to let everyone know they can never be trusted with the economy ever again .
Get it into the nations psyche the way the tories always do with labour.this time name , blame and shame them and never stop or letup .

[CowboyKangaroo]

I understand the lukewarm responses. I just feel that Labour’s inner circle and advisers (almost certainly including Mandy) recognise the Overton window has shifted inexorably right since New Labour’s heyday. Brexit, Johnson etc. will have played their part, and I strongly suspect that there is nervousness about how brittle the poll leads might be. The consequences are what we are witnessing: a feeling that lifelong Labour voters are being taken for granted in order to ‘pander’ to those Tory voters who the leadership need to attract. A feeling that true Labour values are being watered down or sacrificed.

I’m disappointed that the caution seems to be so ingrained, but I think I understand the need for it. Time will tell.

A big lead in the polls is always precarious, and it is wise to expect the polls to narrow to some degree once an election is called. Careful action now can minimise the extent to which the narrowing happens.

That said, it does not justify the level of caution presented by these pledges given that the opposition pre-election pledges are largely responsible for setting where the battlegrounds of the election will be. Surely the more prudent set of pledges would be focussed to a greater degree on the issues which are the true failings of the present government.

[oldfordie]

I want labour to be shouting this from the moment they take office and at every opportunity they have .tell everyone what the debt was when they left office in 2010 and show the country/world what the deficit is now.
All that austerity,cuts to services ,welfare all to get the deficit down was the tories mantra ,we must get the deficit down they said at every opportunity.eventually they stopped saying it as of course it just went up and up due to their disastrous ideology.
Every interview any labour politician is on ,pmqs in the house ,any current affairs programme,they must get it in what a mess  they left ,the debt ,the cuts must shouted to let everyone know they can never be trusted with the economy ever again .
Get it into the nations psyche the way the tories always do with labour.this time name , blame and shame them and never stop or letup .

Yeah, I agree with you, I think other lessons have to be learned about just how dangerous this Tory government are as well. am not going to go deep into the Will of the People/enemy of the people Nazi propaganda tactics to silence all opposition so they had the power to run riot, we all know about it on here, main thing is we never forget what's happened over the last 8yrs or so. this is what took us here in the first place, even now they are calling for us to leave the ECHR, past generations would be horrified with the naivety of the British public today, this seems to be getting ignored by the critics who say Labour are appeasing the far right. theres more to being left and right than Neoliberalism. a decent caring society will never come about when we have politicians taking us into the gutter to win power.
This alone should make people fearful of a Tory government in power.

[9 kemlyn road]

Yeah, I agree with you, I think other lessons have to be learned about just how dangerous this Tory government are as well. am not going to go deep into the Will of the People/enemy of the people Nazi propaganda tactics to silence all opposition so they had the power to run riot, we all know about it on here, main thing is we never forget what's happened over the last 8yrs or so. this is what took us here in the first place, even now they are calling for us to leave the ECHR, past generations would be horrified with the naivety of the British public today, this seems to be getting ignored by the critics who say Labour are appeasing the far right. theres more to being left and right than Neoliberalism. a decent caring society will never come about when we have politicians taking us into the gutter to win power.
This alone should make people fearful of a Tory government in power.

I want labour to play the tories at their own game .
Remind the public just what they did from 2010 up to the point where they pushed brexit into the nations conscious.
All the policies,like the bedroom tax ,student fees  ,closing down remploy , surestart and the other things which helped people ,cut out of callouse spite all under the guise of austerity .
Cameron and osbourne have had a pretty easy ride considering all the damage they wilfully and gleefully inflicted on the nation so labour need to remind the nation that they were the starting point for the absolute mess we’re in now.

[oldfordie]

I want labour to play the tories at their own game .
Remind the public just what they did from 2010 up to the point where they pushed brexit into the nations conscious.
All the policies,like the bedroom tax ,student fees  ,closing down remploy , surestart and the other things which helped people ,cut out of callouse spite all under the guise of austerity .
Cameron and osbourne have had a pretty easy ride considering all the damage they wilfully and gleefully inflicted on the nation so labour need to remind the nation that they were the starting point for the absolute mess we’re in now.

Yeah, they have to do this and more. I think my point is this is not the Tory party of the past, they've been hijacked by radicals. am sure many Tory voters of the past know the difference and refuse to support them but there are still plenty of gullible d/heads who still look at them as the good old Tory party. that Tory party has gone now, the ones who did put the country first etc have been purged from the party,  it's not as if this was done in secret, dear old Boris and the far right kicked most out, the rest made no secret over why they left the Tory party, they had been hijacked by far right fanatics.   

We see things dally that would have brought pages of outrage on here for days but it's just another day under the Torys. did anyone mention the news of Lake Windemere flooded with s,,,, yesterday am sure the majority knew but this is normal under this Tory government.

[PaulF]

I think it would play well with the electorate if the regulators were made a lot tougher.

--edit-- on that topic, does anyone know how TW are doing? Are they still likely to collapse?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

To be honest, isnt that what Rishi Sunak promised as well?

[TheShanklyGates]

To be honest, isnt that what Rishi Sunak promised as well?

Pretty much. Without the photo of Starmer next to them you'd have no idea which party was proposing them. They're so vague and unambitious that they're effectively meaningless. Sticking to 'tough spending rules to deliver economic stability'? You could easily imagine those words coming out of George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford's mouth. Crack down on anti-social behaviour, tighten up the borders, recruit more teachers? Nothing there you wouldn't find in a Tory manifesto so ultimately it becomes a question of trust rather than of policy.

Nobody trusts the Tories, that should go with out saying, but what reason is there to trust Starmer other than he wears a red tie and not a blue one? 10 pledges became 5 missions which has now become 6 pledges, with policies being dropped or watered down at every stage. Who is to say he'll stick to this latest batch and not just abandon them when its convenient? If he has already shown he is perfectly willing to lie to win an election what reason is there to think he wouldn't do the same again?

At this point people are so sick of the Tories that apathy alone will be enough to get Starmer into Downing Street but it really doesn't inspire much hope for the future. The prevailing attitude seems to be 'this lot are dreadful, may as well give the other lot a turn now, can't be any worse'.

Hopefully I'm wrong and it's all actually part of some grand strategy to actually use the power of government as a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself but nothing I'm seeing or hearing at the moment is convincing me.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

To be honest, isnt that what Rishi Sunak promised as well?

I guess the difference is that Sunak has been promising to fix the mess that his own party has created, a mess that for the vast majority of the last 4 years he has overseen as either Chancellor or PM.

To the extent that Labour's priorities overlap with the Tories, I think it is fair for them to differentiate themselves on competence and sincerity.

[9 kemlyn road]

Yeah, they have to do this and more. I think my point is this is not the Tory party of the past, they've been hijacked by radicals. am sure many Tory voters of the past know the difference and refuse to support them but there are still plenty of gullible d/heads who still look at them as the good old Tory party. that Tory party has gone now, the ones who did put the country first etc have been purged from the party,  it's not as if this was done in secret, dear old Boris and the far right kicked most out, the rest made no secret over why they left the Tory party, they had been hijacked by far right fanatics.   

We see things dally that would have brought pages of outrage on here for days but it's just another day under the Torys. did anyone mention the news of Lake Windemere flooded with s,,,, yesterday am sure the majority knew but this is normal under this Tory government.

Yes I agree .the Tory party is quite the different beast it was then to now but they still heartless,nasty and down right evil whatever incantation or form it takes to suit itself.
I want labour to hammer  home what they’ve done over the last 14 years and who’s been responsible.name names ,remind the public the scams and tricks they’ve pulled .remind them of Ian Duncan smith and how he cheered from the rooftops about the latest wave of cuts they got through parliament.
Tell the public all about Thames water, the literal shit show it is ,shame them all the shareholders .name all the people involved in the PPE scandal ,the contracts handed out to their mates instead of contacting firms who specialised in that area .
Tell the whole world about Johnson’s disastrous handling of the Covid crisis ,the lives that could have been saved .hancocks part in it as well ,let’s see how much all these tories gained financially.
It’s payback time for the tories,labour always let them off the hook unlike the tories do with labour.if the tories are to spend the ne xt few years out of power and fighting a war within their party among themselves then let’s pile on the misery and so much shit on them that they’ll be finished.
We can’t afford the tories anymore,they’ve destroyed the country,it’s time they were destroyed.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Pretty much. Without the photo of Starmer next to them you'd have no idea which party was proposing them. They're so vague and unambitious that they're effectively meaningless. Sticking to 'tough spending rules to deliver economic stability'? You could easily imagine those words coming out of George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford's mouth. Crack down on anti-social behaviour, tighten up the borders, recruit more teachers? Nothing there you wouldn't find in a Tory manifesto so ultimately it becomes a question of trust rather than of policy.

Nobody trusts the Tories, that should go with out saying, but what reason is there to trust Starmer other than he wears a red tie and not a blue one? 10 pledges became 5 missions which has now become 6 pledges, with policies being dropped or watered down at every stage. Who is to say he'll stick to this latest batch and not just abandon them when its convenient? If he has already shown he is perfectly willing to lie to win an election what reason is there to think he wouldn't do the same again?

At this point people are so sick of the Tories that apathy alone will be enough to get Starmer into Downing Street but it really doesn't inspire much hope for the future. The prevailing attitude seems to be 'this lot are dreadful, may as well give the other lot a turn now, can't be any worse'.

Hopefully I'm wrong and it's all actually part of some grand strategy to actually use the power of government as a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself but nothing I'm seeing or hearing at the moment is convincing me.

I think he is just making sure he is getting his face out there and making sure that the general public associate Labour with the idea of fixing the things that are concerning them the most at the moment and which the Tories have completely failed to do.

The Lib Dems/Greens may well have plenty of policies that are more attractive/radical but won't get anywhere with them because they haven't found a way to get through to the wider public rather than just the politically engaged minority.

The real proof will start to come later this year with the full manifesto and then obviously with their record in government. It seems a bit premature to be complaining at this point about stuff like this. Are you expecting him to come into government and then do an about turn and try to destabilise the economy, increase NHS waiting lists and encourage ASB?

[filopastry]

I think he is just making sure he is getting his face out there and making sure that the general public associate Labour with the idea of fixing the things that are concerning them the most at the moment and which the Tories have completely failed to do.

The Lib Dems/Greens may well have plenty of policies that are more attractive/radical but won't get anywhere with them because they haven't found a way to get through to the wider public rather than just the politically engaged minority.

The real proof will start to come later this year with the full manifesto and then obviously with their record in government. It seems a bit premature to be complaining at this point about stuff like this. Are you expecting him to come into government and then do an about turn and try to destabilise the economy, increase NHS waiting lists and encourage ASB?

Exactly

[thaddeus]

I want labour to be shouting this from the moment they take office and at every opportunity they have .tell everyone what the debt was when they left office in 2010 and show the country/world what the deficit is now.
All that austerity,cuts to services ,welfare all to get the deficit down was the tories mantra ,we must get the deficit down they said at every opportunity.eventually they stopped saying it as of course it just went up and up due to their disastrous ideology.
Every interview any labour politician is on ,pmqs in the house ,any current affairs programme,they must get it in what a mess  they left ,the debt ,the cuts must shouted to let everyone know they can never be trusted with the economy ever again .
Get it into the nations psyche the way the tories always do with labour.this time name , blame and shame them and never stop or letup .

This is by no means a defence of the Tories but they were reducing national debt as a percentage of GDP from 2015 until the Covid pandemic.  They were doing it in a very Tory way - by destroying public services and taking from those that could least afford it.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282841/debt-as-gdp-uk/

What the last few years have shown is that the Tory approach was not sustainable.  We now have the highest debt as a percentage of GDP since the early 60s (when we were slowly paying off the debts accrued during WWII), our public services are crumbling and a significant proportion of working families cannot afford the basics.

I'm not an economist so I don't know if tackling the national debt should be a priority or not.  What should be a priority is funding public services off the backs of those that can most afford it - a starting point would be those that added so much to the national debt during the global financial crisis and the Covid pandemic, and those that cashed in by hedging against the UK on Brexit!  Labour have so far been very underwhelming on anything that might mean more money taken from the richest.

[TheShanklyGates]

I think he is just making sure he is getting his face out there and making sure that the general public associate Labour with the idea of fixing the things that are concerning them the most at the moment and which the Tories have completely failed to do.

The Lib Dems/Greens may well have plenty of policies that are more attractive/radical but won't get anywhere with them because they haven't found a way to get through to the wider public rather than just the politically engaged minority.

The real proof will start to come later this year with the full manifesto and then obviously with their record in government. It seems a bit premature to be complaining at this point about stuff like this. Are you expecting him to come into government and then do an about turn and try to destabilise the economy, increase NHS waiting lists and encourage ASB?

This is what I meant though about his 'pledges' being so vague as to be almost meaningless. Of course he won't deliberately try and destabilise the economy, increase NHS waiting lists and encourage anti-social behaviour but who is to say he will commit to the necessary investment required to achieve these things when he has already scaled back or abandoned so many of his previous pledges? 

Do I think Labour will be better than the Tories? Yes.
Do I think they'll have the transformative impact that our society and economy do desperately needs? I highly doubt it.

I don't think we'll see the same performative cruelty we get from the current government and I expect they'll smooth over some of the rough edges and alleviate some of the suffering caused by our broken systems. And when we have a government that can't (or won't) even get the very basics of running a country right some boring technocratic policies will effect some improvement. Maybe that's enough for some, and indeed when there are only 2 options it's on us as voters to choose the least worst of them - I will be voting for the Labour candidate in my constituency because they are the only realistic chance to get the Tory incumbent out. But if Labour don't make the truly transformative changes that are so desperately needed people will soon lose patience, the Tories will be back in power before you know it, and on the cycle will go until things become so bad that people will look to more and more extreme politicians and proposals for solutions.

[LuverlyRita]

I want labour to hammer  home what they’ve done over the last 14 years and who’s been responsible.name names ,remind the public the scams and tricks they’ve pulled .remind them of Ian Duncan smith and how he cheered from the rooftops about the latest wave of cuts they got through parliament.
Tell the public all about Thames water, the literal shit show it is ,shame them all the shareholders .name all the people involved in the PPE scandal ,the contracts handed out to their mates instead of contacting firms who specialised in that area .
Tell the whole world about Johnson’s disastrous handling of the Covid crisis ,the lives that could have been saved .hancocks part in it as well ,let’s see how much all these tories gained financially.
It’s payback time for the tories,labour always let them off the hook unlike the tories do with labour.if the tories are to spend the ne xt few years out of power and fighting a war within their party among themselves then let’s pile on the misery and so much shit on them that they’ll be finished.
We can’t afford the tories anymore,they’ve destroyed the country,it’s time they were destroyed.

This is precisely what Labour must do. Far too much nonsense has embedded itself into the national psyche over the years as a result of Tory party lies and the Tory demoninated media (not least the idea that the economy is only in safe hands of the Conservatives). Starmer must not miss the opportunity to demonstrate to the public that they've been hoodwinked and he must show up the Tories for the charlatans they are. They need a good kicking and Starmer must not stop until he's ground their nasty party to a pulp.

[Sangria]

This is what I meant though about his 'pledges' being so vague as to be almost meaningless. Of course he won't deliberately try and destabilise the economy, increase NHS waiting lists and encourage anti-social behaviour but who is to say he will commit to the necessary investment required to achieve these things when he has already scaled back or abandoned so many of his previous pledges? 

Do I think Labour will be better than the Tories? Yes.
Do I think they'll have the transformative impact that our society and economy do desperately needs? I highly doubt it.

I don't think we'll see the same performative cruelty we get from the current government and I expect they'll smooth over some of the rough edges and alleviate some of the suffering caused by our broken systems. And when we have a government that can't (or won't) even get the very basics of running a country right some boring technocratic policies will effect some improvement. Maybe that's enough for some, and indeed when there are only 2 options it's on us as voters to choose the least worst of them - I will be voting for the Labour candidate in my constituency because they are the only realistic chance to get the Tory incumbent out. But if Labour don't make the truly transformative changes that are so desperately needed people will soon lose patience, the Tories will be back in power before you know it, and on the cycle will go until things become so bad that people will look to more and more extreme politicians and proposals for solutions.

There were people throughout the 97-2010 period who complained that Labour were no different from the Tories, that they weren't radical enough, that the Red Flag was being diluted into a Pink Flag.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

To be honest, isnt that what Rishi Sunak promised as well?

That twat says a lot of things, none of which originate from him.

[oldfordie]

Yes I agree .the Tory party is quite the different beast it was then to now but they still heartless,nasty and down right evil whatever incantation or form it takes to suit itself.
I want labour to hammer  home what they’ve done over the last 14 years and who’s been responsible.name names ,remind the public the scams and tricks they’ve pulled .remind them of Ian Duncan smith and how he cheered from the rooftops about the latest wave of cuts they got through parliament.
Tell the public all about Thames water, the literal shit show it is ,shame them all the shareholders .name all the people involved in the PPE scandal ,the contracts handed out to their mates instead of contacting firms who specialised in that area .
Tell the whole world about Johnson’s disastrous handling of the Covid crisis ,the lives that could have been saved .hancocks part in it as well ,let’s see how much all these tories gained financially.
It’s payback time for the tories,labour always let them off the hook unlike the tories do with labour.if the tories are to spend the ne xt few years out of power and fighting a war within their party among themselves then let’s pile on the misery and so much shit on them that they’ll be finished.
We can’t afford the tories anymore,they’ve destroyed the country,it’s time they were destroyed.

Yeah, I dread to think what will happen if many of the public carry on thinking this Tory party are no different from past Torys or even worse thinking they are no different from Labour. it's not about wining the next election for me, it's about changing the way the public see the Tory party. do that and the Torys are finished for decades. we will have millions who will refuse to vote Tory for the same reason many on here don't.
I suppose we will get a idea on this when the election debates start.  I want to see Tory MPs cringing having to listen to angry people reminding them on all the damage they have done.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Tories are quickly putting things together that will only cause the same culture wars that they have over in the states, they don't give a fuck about anything other than shaving off a few Labour votes,

If they get back in, it'll be riot time.

[9 kemlyn road]

This is by no means a defence of the Tories but they were reducing national debt as a percentage of GDP from 2015 until the Covid pandemic.  They were doing it in a very Tory way - by destroying public services and taking from those that could least afford it.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282841/debt-as-gdp-uk/

What the last few years have shown is that the Tory approach was not sustainable.  We now have the highest debt as a percentage of GDP since the early 60s (when we were slowly paying off the debts accrued during WWII), our public services are crumbling and a significant proportion of working families cannot afford the basics.

I'm not an economist so I don't know if tackling the national debt should be a priority or not.  What should be a priority is funding public services off the backs of those that can most afford it - a starting point would be those that added so much to the national debt during the global financial crisis and the Covid pandemic, and those that cashed in by hedging against the UK on Brexit!  Labour have so far been very underwhelming on anything that might mean more money taken from the richest.

I just found that in 2010 Cameron and osbourne kept repeating the mantra get the deficit down as often as they coul ,coupled with it’s all labours fault which the public very quickly believed so giving the tories the perfect excuse for austerity.
They reversed all the good measures taken by brown and alistair darling which was working to alleviate the crash of 2008 it seemed out of spite and a labour bad ,tories good kind of attitude whether it was working or not.
As brown said in the commons to Cameron,”this is no time for ametures “.
Well that is exactly what we got .the had a golden chance to wreak havoc on the ordinary and less well off and they seized it with both hands and waded in with size 12 boots kicking the shit out us while repeating get the deficit down .
As you said it wasn’t sustainable and that mantra slowly went away ,obviously Covid was a priority but they’d shut up about the debt before then.
You’re right about getting the money back from disaster capitalists and the like .
It’s their turn to have some bad medicine

[oldfordie]

There were people throughout the 97-2010 period who complained that Labour were no different from the Tories, that they weren't radical enough, that the Red Flag was being diluted into a Pink Flag.

I think many enjoy the fight for change rather than the actual change for good.  a long protest forcing change on 1 policy is seen as a glorious win while many implemented policys for the good implemented with a stroke of the pen aren't even noticed. power is boring for many. it's just a bit of news that goes unnoticed a lot of the time. I would have been quite happy to go back to the days when we hardly noticed all the change for good. am not a fan of fighting for small wins. I want Labour in power to implement with a stroke of the pen.
Labours record in office has been posted many times.

[9 kemlyn road]

I think many enjoy the fight for change rather than the actual change for good.  a long protest forcing change on 1 policy is seen as a glorious win while many implemented policys for the good implemented with a stroke of the pen aren't even noticed. power is boring for many. it's just a bit of news that goes unnoticed a lot of the time. I would have been quite happy to go back to the days when we hardly noticed all the change for good. am not a fan of fighting for small wins. I want Labour in power to implement with a stroke of the pen.
Labours record in office has been posted many times.

When thatcher won the leadership of the Tory party in 75 she quickly spent time surrounding herself with likeminded people like Keith Joseph ,airey neave ,whitelaw,Howe who believed the way forward was the monetary policy ,neo liberalism path .
This obviously meant smashing the very powerful unions ,destroying industries and changing the whole way of life as it was known at the time.this wasn’t going to happen overnight but that was what they decided to do come what may.
She spent time learning from others how to tame unions the way they had in other countries and spent time in New York with the mayor ,ed Koch and the way he refused to negotiate with them and the way he cracked down on them.
She did this with great  effect once she got in .the point I’m trying to make is the tories decided to pursue  an ideology which was in their interests and benefitted them and their supporters but only a select few not for the country as a whole and to hell with anyone who got in her way and didn’t like it .on they went regardless to the disastrous years we’ve had since if you did indeed get in the way.
It’s time now for labour to reverse this system we’ve put up with for nearly half a century.it was accepted and put up with as the way forward when the tories did it now it’s high time the country went in a different direction ideologically.