Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[Stockholm Syndrome]

The question that might have made him squirm a bit would be...."Given the fact that there are now Muslims in the England squad, do you think it's appropriate that England has a crucifix on their shirt at all?"

To be fair that feels like more of a European legacy problem of flags, in that a fair number of them were made with a crucifix on them.

The flag of St George has a crucifix, as does Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, and is Switzerland classified as a crucifix too?

I don't really give a shit about flags or England or National football teams, but at what point is it considered a religious symbol or a national symbol given that that is the flag, and at what point does the national identity (including all cultures within that nation) take over the religious citations dating back centuries?

[Paul JH]

It might say more about you than the country though?

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

[classycarra]

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

Why do you want to feel good when you see a politician?

Feels like people who share that trait might need to shoulder some of the blame for the 'politicians will say anything they think will get them votes' issue you perceive

[Bobsackamano]

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

I see him as somewhere in the gap between gobshite and saviour.

[Paul JH]

Why do you want to feel good when you see a politician?

Feels like people who share that trait might need to shoulder some of the blame for the 'politicians will say anything they think will get them votes' issue you perceive

I think you've misread what I mean there. I didn't say I want to feel good, I said I want to see someone who at least looks like they have the countries best interests at heart, not just someone who will say literally anything for a vote. And it's obvious.

[oldfordie]

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

That's the picture being painted by people who don't want him to win.
It's quite the opposite actually, he's refused to say the things the people who go along with the crowd demand. he's refused to support the many issues others say he should support. I think you will find the opportunists are the people who go along with the crowd.

[Libertine]

I think you've misread what I mean there. I didn't say I want to feel good, I said I want to see someone who at least looks like they have the countries best interests at heart, not just someone who will say literally anything for a vote. And it's obvious.

There's plenty to criticise Starmer for - overly cautious, uninspiring, lacking a big vision.

But crazy to say he doesn't have the country's best interests at heart. He's a lifelong public servant and one now dedicating himself to what's going to be a very tough job in sorting out the mess of the Tories. He could probably become very wealthy and comfortable in the private sector, but he takes all the shit because he wants to contribute to making the country a somewhat better place.

[John C]

I don't usually comment on Politics, and I've always voted Labour, always. But Starmer is a massive twat isn't he?

As someone who doesn't really follow politics as much as others, he comes across to me, a Labour voter all my life, as an opportunist, PM QT soundbite Gobshite. Really detest him. As snivelling and horrible as any Tory, but just dressed up in red.

So if I can feel like that, what does that say about the state of the country?? Sad times.

Interested to know people's opinions, those who like him, as to WHY they like him? Maybe I'm just becoming more cynical (and old!) and hate ALL politicians, but I just can't think he's anything but unlikeable.

Bizarre. Absolutely bewildering.
We don't regard him as a "saviour" as you suggest in the other post, we regard him as a serious opportunity to rid this country of an establishment which is quite evil, dangerous and damaging.

[bigbonedrawky]

That's on her, maybe she should've asked questions that he could answer. Labour would be fucking stupid to announce it now, all that'd happen is the Tory pricks would ad them to theirs.

Sounds like Blue Labourites stealing the policies of Red Tories... Does this mean we could in theory have a Lab Con coalition ?  Guess it'd come down to which one of them you'd trust to do,what they'd pledged to do...Damn.   

[Paul JH]

Bizarre. Absolutely bewildering.
We don't regard him as a "saviour" as you suggest in the other post, we regard him as a serious opportunity to rid this country of an establishment which is quite evil, dangerous and damaging.

Why is what I said 'bizarre' John? Where on Earth did I say people think of him as a 'saviour' (I never said that at all), and where did I say I want anything other than exactly that you've just said? I want him to win by proxy as I want a Labour government, I want the Tories out, I don't like him as a person per-se. At all. Why is that bizarre, or have you literally just took an opinion of him as a polarising post?

Baffled as to why you think that's bizarre,

[Jiminy Cricket]

Why is what I said 'bizarre' John? Where on Earth did I say people think of him as a 'saviour' (I never said that at all), and where did I say I want anything other than exactly that you've just said? I want him to win by proxy as I want a Labour government, I want the Tories out, I don't like him as a person per-se. At all. Why is that bizarre, or have you literally just took an opinion of him as a polarising post?

Baffled as to why you think that's bizarre,

Hmmm. Here, perhaps!?

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

[Bobsackamano]

Hmmm. Here, perhaps!?

Ahh however he didn't state anyone viewed him as a saviour, he was asking if people viewed him as a "saviour who made them feel good"

That's not the same thing at all 🤣

[kavah]

Interested to know people's opinions, those who like him, as to WHY they like him?

1. I think he's is politics for the right reasons (To improve things in the UK).
2. He's self-made, intelligent, driven, serious.

[Paul JH]

Hmmm. Here, perhaps!?

Well no, I asked DO people see him as a saviour? I didn't state people DO see him as one, so yeah, there's that ... it's a question not a statement, so yeah, I never stated people do see him as one. 

Appears you can't criticise him at all in here, so yeah, will bow out.

Ahh however he didn't state anyone viewed him as a saviour, he was asking if people viewed him as a "saviour who made them feel good"

That's not the same thing at all 🤣

Well it actually isn't the same. Asking IF people do, compared to saying they DO is different yeah.  I'm asking for opinions, but appears you can't not like him in this thread. Even if you're a labour voter.

1. I think he's is politics for the right reasons (To improve things in the UK).
2. He's self-made, intelligent, driven, serious.

Thank you for answering without being overly defensive like some others in here.

[B0151?]

Dont think they should be pissing about messing with flags to be honest. I think its a fair answer by Starmer.

Yeah don't see the big deal with that response. I don't care about it myself like but if Nike did something mad with our badge we'd be fuming and a national flag is another level to that. Nike are charging 100 quid plus for kits the least they can do is not piss people off.

[Bobsackamano]

Well no, I asked DO people see him as a saviour? I didn't state people DO see him as one, so yeah, there's that ... it's a question not a statement, so yeah, I never stated people do see him as one. 

Appears you can't criticise him at all in here, so yeah, will bow out.

Well it actually isn't the same. Asking IF people do, compared to saying they DO is different yeah.  I'm asking for opinions, but appears you can't not like him in this thread. Even if you're a labour voter.

Thank you for answering without being overly defensive like some others in here.

That's the exact point I made, I just think it's a ludicrous question hence the laughter.

[Yorkykopite]

In what way?

You tell me. You're the one who said it! Look, here.......

So if I can feel like that, what does that say about the state of the country?? Sad times.

I suspect most people in the country doesn't feel like you. So there's no need to worry.

[killer-heels]

Its fine Owen Jones fucking off from the party, but why tell people to vote for Greens and Independents? What a knob.

[Bobsackamano]

Its fine Owen Jones fucking off from the party, but why tell people to vote for Greens and Independents? What a knob.

Occam's Razor. Because he doesn't want Labour to win the next election.

[Father Ted]

If it was fine to tell people to vote Lib Dem and Change UK or even the Tories (only in exchange for honours of course) and put People’s Vote bollocks above getting the Tories out (I hear it’s all the rage thesedays) then surely such behaviour is still fine today? Unless of course different factions of Labour doing exactly the same thing should be held to different standards.

Left = you fools, you idiots, you trot scum! How dare you!

Right = you sensible moderate heroes, you rock my world!

[Yorkykopite]

If it was fine to tell people to vote Lib Dem and Change UK or even the Tories (only in exchange for honours of course) and put People’s Vote bollocks above getting the Tories out (I hear it’s all the rage thesedays) then surely such behaviour is still fine today?

I agree. If Owen Jones wants to reduce the chances of Labour winning the election that's fine by me. It's not like he's a Labour Party member anymore.

[CornerFlag]

Owen Jones is someone whose world view I probably align with reasonably well, much more than I'd say the Starmers and Reeves of the party do.  And I do agree that the limp-wristed way that the issues within the area that I won't discuss further (so the thread isn't locked) is not how I want to see the issues being dealt with. But where I differ is that I think I take a better rounded view on things, in that seeking change through pushing other parties that would keep the status quo of nothing of significance happening, especially when Labour would remain a party of opposition rather than policy.

One thing I get a general feeling of within the structure of the party is that Starmer is the dog that's being wagged by its tail. Reeves and McSweeney appear to be two of the biggest influencers here

[Sangria]

In what way? Generally like to know if people see Starmer as some kind of saviour who makes them feel good?

I remember way back when Labour got in with Blair, the whole 'Britpop' time, when the country felt great, felt uplifting (yes we know how it all turned out). But now? I can't see anything in him that's remotely likeable. I want the Tories out of government, as ever, but I don't look at him and think 'he gets me, and he gets the country'. I just see him as an opportunist who says anything he thinks will get him votes. As do they all obviously, but he just comes across as obvious in doing so.

Voting Lib Dem here as they're the most likely to turf out the local Tory. Which is what it's about to me. I don't particularly care about this politician or that (maybe Cooper inspires me, but not many others). It's all about getting the Tory out.

[Father Ted]

I agree. If Owen Jones wants to reduce the chances of Labour winning the election that's fine by me. It's not like he's a Labour Party member anymore.

No one’s listening to him anyway imo, other than those who already agree. Or those who would never agree, but like to get mad at Owen Jones.

[classycarra]

I don't think I've encountered a single person who's upset at the news Owen Jones is leaving the party Especially as it was always inevitable, if and when Labour next looked close to government.

'Go to the greens' is the decades old avenue that the crank wing of the left usually go anyway, he's only following many of his incompetent colleagues who had the ear (and, in other cases, the salary) of the incompetent previous leader.

Since his record and international outlook is being brought up, may as well share a tweet I was just reading that sets out many of his less-discussed scummy politics https://xcancel.com/OzKaterji/status/1771127193143316561?s=20

[daveypauly]

I don't think it's surprising that no one's upset by Owen Jones leaving Labour.

Those who generally agree with his politics and his views on the party have likely already left themselves and those who remain likely don't agree with his politics and/or dislike him.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Its fine Owen Jones fucking off from the party, but why tell people to vote for Greens and Independents? What a knob.

I first became aware of Jones later than most here, when I was still in the US. 2017-18, probably. I was talking with a mate (from the UK) who was singing his praises. But Jones has always struck me as 'a knob'. I do not recall if it was the same mate or commenters here since then who have countered, 'but his book' (don't know which one). Can't speak to that - I've not read any of them or even read a review about them. All I know is that I've always found him (and his Guardian column) utterly insufferable.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

One thing I get a general feeling of within the structure of the party is that Starmer is the dog that's being wagged by its tail. Reeves and McSweeney appear to be two of the biggest influencers here

That's interesting as I have no contacts within the Labour party at any level but that has been my lay-man's impression.

I've heard plenty from Starmer both verbally and in writing that makes me feel that he is somebody with a world view and values that is broadly progressive/socialist. Unlike many politicians he already has held responsibility at the highest level of public service.

That said I think in terms of Labour politics he is still inexperienced/an outsider and my feeling is that he has not been able to stand up to the right of the party (in particular in terms of the party outside of parliament) as they try to settle all the scores with the left that built up during the Corbyn leadership. It is a shame as it could have been the perfect opportunity to have an 'unaligned' figure try and find a solution to the infighting. Instead, as others have pointed out on numerous occasions, what Labour seems to have ended up with is the same amount of kicking going on as under Corbyn, just with the boot on the other foot.
 

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I first became aware of Jones later than most here, when I was still in the US. 2017-18, probably. I was talking with a mate (from the UK) who was singing his praises. But Jones has always struck me as 'a knob'. I do not recall if it was the same mate or commenters here since then who have countered, 'but his book' (don't know which one). Can't speak to that - I've not read any of them or even read a review about them. All I know is that I've always found him (and his Guardian column) utterly insufferable.

I guess the book they are talking about is Ch@vs: The Demonization of the Working Class which was published in 2011.

I think he has always written well about grass roots democracy/activism.

But he has increasingly become almost a parody of himself, with a hugely inflated sense of his own self-importance (which for me seems to be a bit of a pattern amongst all sorts of figures with large and active Twitter presences).

I think he still has interesting stuff to say but like you I now find it too aggravating to try and find these nuggets in amongst all of the rhetoric.

Edit - sidestepping the auto correct

[John C]

Why is what I said 'bizarre' John? Where on Earth did I say people think of him as a 'saviour' (I never said that at all), and where did I say I want anything other than exactly that you've just said? I want him to win by proxy as I want a Labour government, I want the Tories out, I don't like him as a person per-se. At all. Why is that bizarre, or have you literally just took an opinion of him as a polarising post?

Baffled as to why you think that's bizarre,

Hello Paul mate.
Jiminy has already kindly highlighted the 'saviour' reference.

I'm not sure you can state your post is polarising - as Yorky pointed out, for someone who usually doesn't comment on politics your observation is quite visceral.
After five indescribably awful Tory PM's, one of which is one of the worst human beings on the planet and one of which has caused mortgages to rise for millions of young people crippling their disposable income, you've decided its Starmer who you "detest".
A massive twat.
A PM QT soundbite opportunist.
A gobshite.
Snivelling and horrible like a Tory.
Unlikeable.

There's at least two current MP's who I'd have loved, absolutely loved to have seen as leader before Starmer (Cooper first, Benn Second), but Keir (Hi bigbone  ) is on the brink of sending the actual real twats and gobshites of this country out to vote Labour. They all might just go and do it.

And Paul, believe me, it is not just because the Tory's have fucked us up, these fuckers will still vote for them. It's because they'll hopefully accept a Labour Government with Starmer as their PM.








Praise the fucking Lord please for fucks sake.

[John C]

Its fine Owen Jones fucking off from the party, but why tell people to vote for Greens and Independents? What a knob.

Yep, he's wealthy enough to suffer zero consequences of any sort of post-election turmoil.
You could make a long list actually, if Zeb was still here he'd tell you to start with the lexiters, KH.

[TepidT2O]

Yep, he's wealthy enough to suffer zero consequences of any sort of post-election turmoil.
You could make a long list actually, if Zeb was still here he'd tell you to start with the lexiters, KH.

Owen Jones is basically Trotskyist talksport.

Say something to rile people up and get clicks.  And we fall for it every time.


Like talksport he is best ignored. He has an agenda and that’s clicks.  That’s it.

[oldfordie]

Owen Jones is basically Trotskyist talksport.

Say something to rile people up and get clicks.  And we fall for it every time.


Like talksport he is best ignored. He has an agenda and that’s clicks.  That’s it.

I made the same point replying to one of his tweets, he's the Katie Hopkins of the left, always trying to be controversial to get a reaction, all about keeping himself relevant, best ignore him.

[bigbonedrawky]

Hello Paul mate.
Jiminy has already kindly highlighted the 'saviour' reference.

I'm not sure you can state your post is polarising - as Yorky pointed out, for someone who usually doesn't comment on politics your observation is quite visceral.
After five indescribably awful Tory PM's, one of which is one of the worst human beings on the planet and one of which has caused mortgages to rise for millions of young people crippling their disposable income, you've decided its Starmer who you "detest".
A massive twat.
A PM QT soundbite opportunist.
A gobshite.
Snivelling and horrible like a Tory.
Unlikeable.

There's at least two current MP's who I'd have loved, absolutely loved to have seen as leader before Starmer (Cooper first, Benn Second), but Keir (Hi bigbone  ) is on the brink of sending the actual real twats and gobshites of this country out to vote Labour. They all might just go and do it.

And Paul, believe me, it is not just because the Tory's have fucked us up, these fuckers will still vote for them. It's because they'll hopefully accept a Labour Government with Starmer as their PM.








Praise the fucking Lord please for fucks sake.

Hi C ...What you did there. 

[KillieRed]

Very respectively I ask is this post part of the hyperbole mate?
I actually entered the thread knowing there'd be a reaction.

Is the actual situation that .... the deed was done by Nike ...... lots of people in the media stamp their feet and go nuts ......Starmer was asked to comment ....... and without little effort of wasted time Starmer agrees it should be changed?
He could have said whose arsed.
He could have said its boss as it is.
He could have said anything but it doesn't matter what, by virtue that he commented it has become "Starmer calls for..."; "Starmer weighs in....".
He'll receive criticism from those who want to anyway.

Part of the hyperbole? Not sure what you mean.

My point is that he seems to go out of his way to cater for people who are not core Labour supporters. I have a very bad feeling that that will continue in government. I know from experience that that is how Labour lost Scotland-it was not all down to a huge desire for independence, but as much the perceived distaste for Labours drift to the right and their taking for granted their “safe seats”. They may very well be given another chance in Scotland because people have short memories, but how long will it last if the pandering to the right/centrist voters of England continues?

[Kenny's Jacket]

Part of the hyperbole? Not sure what you mean.

My point is that he seems to go out of his way to cater for people who are not core Labour supporters. I have a very bad feeling that that will continue in government. I know from experience that that is how Labour lost Scotland-it was not all down to a huge desire for independence, but as much the perceived distaste for Labours drift to the right and their taking for granted their “safe seats”. They may very well be given another chance in Scotland because people have short memories, but how long will it last if the pandering to the right/centrist voters of England and Wales continues?

[KillieRed]

Maybe

[kavah]

Owen Jones is basically Trotskyist talksport.

Ha ha 

[TSC]

Part of the hyperbole? Not sure what you mean.

My point is that he seems to go out of his way to cater for people who are not core Labour supporters.

Catering to the broader electorate is the route to power. 

[reddebs]

How do I find out who my candidate will be for Anglesey?  Or hasn't it been decided yet?

I find it very confusing, with the Welsh Assembly, who is who.