Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??

[BarryCrocker]

Well. That's eight minutes and thirty-one seconds I'll not get back. Absolute moronic drivel.

Exactly. Two fck knuckles talking about shit they know nothing about. The perfect ingredients for a conspiracy theory. All you need is an audience who also don't know the subject to bake it.

And that my friend is 'The Joe Rogan Experience',

[[new username under construction]]

I see John Oliver covered the topic on Last Week Tonight

[BarryCrocker]

I see John Oliver covered the  on Last Week Tonight

Delicious.

[Valore]

I see John Oliver covered the topic on Last Week Tonight

Obvious irrefutable proof they were spying on us talking about this all along.

[lobsterboy]

A lot of certainty in your post.

Reality tends to be murkier.

Be real for a minute, the murkiness comes with the grift.
But they sell the dreams you are all seeking.
That thrill you get at the thought of finding the greatest conspiracy ever. That's the hook.
None of the bullshit spouted by these grifters gets past the part about space being really, really, really big and the energy required to travel FTL and break GR is insanely huge. That's before all the rest that makes it scientifically unlikely.

Saddest thing is that real astronomy and space exploration tech is actually just as amazing without all the made up shite.

I'm not having a pop but I'm tired of people disappearing down conspiracy rabbit holes because of the internet and grifters.
5G, vaccines, Pizzagate and all the rest, these things can have real world consequences.
We got Trump and Brexit because of it.

[lionel_messias]

People can disappear down conspiracy rabbit holes, that's a fool's errand I agree.

I find the whole circus to be underwhelming shite at the moment.

Interested to see if my mind changes any time soon.












*Sidenote: anything Ryan Graves has said, and Chris Mellon should not be conflated with 5G or rantings by others, we're conflating an awful lot of things that are not the same here. Like saying Millwall is the same as Liverpool FC, because of I don't know, "football".

[lionel_messias]

I think we will be getting some form of disclosure on UAP.


That is: some acknowledgement that a non-human intelligence has been operating around us, for some time.

I have no doubts about this.

This thread and the general conversation about the topic tends to be a kind of binary fight: doubters vs believers (to put in Kloppian terms). Grifters vs Insiders. Conspiracy theorists vs. part-time super-rationalists. Tired of that fight, it is futile.

The guy featured in the clip below, Karl Nell, has one of the most impressive CVs I have ever seen. Has two Masters degrees and was asked by the US military to reorganise the entire US Army. He is four bosses away from President Biden.

Before people jump in: his CV and his current position is why he is NOT Mr Disclosure, he cannot say, "Here is the material, here is where the program is, I have some UAP segments on my lawn, come over guys!"

This is what he did say though:


https://xcancel.com/SALTConference/status/1793723843321692305



Before the inevitable and frequent complaints, there is 0% chance that Karl Nell, (this person: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karl-nell-98203510/) is saying the things he has said, on 3 occasions now, based on hearsay and rumours other people have told him.

The 'circular rumours from believers with the Pentagon' line is from Doctor Sean Kirkpatrick of AARO and it is itself a conspiracy theory.

[Elmo!]

That is: some acknowledgement that a non-human intelligence has been operating around us, for some time.

They're called animals mate.

[BER]

I think we will be getting some form of disclosure on UAP.


That is: some acknowledgement that a non-human intelligence has been operating around us, for some time.

I have no doubts about this.

This thread and the general conversation about the topic tends to be a kind of binary fight: doubters vs believers (to put in Kloppian terms). Grifters vs Insiders. Conspiracy theorists vs. part-time super-rationalists. Tired of that fight, it is futile.

The guy featured in the clip below, Karl Nell, has one of the most impressive CVs I have ever seen. Has two Masters degrees and was asked by the US military to reorganise the entire US Army. He is four bosses away from President Biden.

Before people jump in: his CV and his current position is why he is NOT Mr Disclosure, he cannot say, "Here is the material, here is where the program is, I have some UAP segments on my lawn, come over guys!"

This is what he did say though:


https://xcancel.com/SALTConference/status/1793723843321692305



Before the inevitable and frequent complaints, there is 0% chance that Karl Nell, (this person: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karl-nell-98203510/) is saying the things he has said, on 3 occasions now, based on hearsay and rumours other people have told him.

The 'circular rumours from believers with the Pentagon' line is from Doctor Sean Kirkpatrick of AARO and it is itself a conspiracy theory.

[Jiminy Cricket]

He is four bosses away from President Biden.

That's not remotely as impressive as you think it is.

[lionel_messias]

That's not remotely as impressive as you think it is.

Insert [Chain of Command leading to the current President of United States]

There is no one I have met IRL or online who could remotely put shade on Karl Nell. The guy is what he is.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Insert [Chain of Command leading to the current President of United States]

There is no one I have met IRL or online who could remotely put shade on Karl Nell. The guy is what he is.

It is five degrees of separation in the chain of command. He hardly has Joe Biden's ear. It just seems like a silly 'impressive' claim to make. I assume the claim comes from him and you are 'merely' repeating it.

[lionel_messias]

It is five degrees of separation in the chain of command. He hardly has Joe Biden's ear. It just seems like a silly 'impressive' claim to make. I assume the claim comes from him and you are 'merely' repeating it.

His statement? Yes, it is from him.

https://xcancel.com/SALTConference/status/1793723843321692305

The facts are there: you can see how high up he is and listening to him speak it is fairly obvious
what sort of person is speaking.

[[new username under construction]]

    Joe Biden

    Lloyd Austin

    Christine Wormuth

    James Rainey

    Karl Nell


That's the apparent 4 steps

[lobsterboy]

Lionel's off his meds again 

[lionel_messias]

    Joe Biden

    Lloyd Austin

    Christine Wormuth

    James Rainey

    Karl Nell


That's the apparent 4 steps

Yes, he's not a "unicorns and ghosts" type of guy. In fact...


Vice President & General Manager with >25-years of progressive P&L leadership in top-tier / FORTUNE 500 firms: Bell Telephone Laboratories, Lockheed Missiles & Space, Northrop Grumman / TASC, CACI, ENSCO. Actualizes Board initiatives creating $250(+)-million revenue streams in IC, DoD, Fed-Civ markets. Proven success achieving operational excellence, new-growth, and business transformation in diverse, high-end aerospace R&D, large-scale integrated solutions, and SE&I advisory services. Distinguished Fellow, Congressionally-chartered IT Acquisition Advisory Council (IT-AAC). Ivy League graduate, multi-disciplinary engineer, certified-PMP®, published author, War College alumni, and successful Brigade Commander supporting XVIII Airborne Corps and JSOC.

[Riquende]

I think we will be getting some form of disclosure on UAP.

I have no doubts about this.

Just FYI Lionel, when you inevitably try to roll this new excitement back next month, and instead post feeble attempts to appear rational like "I'm just waiting to follow where the evidence leads" etc, this quoted line will be the petard you're hoisted by.

[thejbs]

Are we saying someone 4-5 steps removed from the president can’t be a bullshitting grifter when the previous president himself was a bullshitting grifter?

[lionel_messias]

Just FYI Lionel, when you inevitably try to roll this new excitement back next month, and instead post feeble attempts to appear rational like "I'm just waiting to follow where the evidence leads" etc, this quoted line will be the petard you're hoisted by.

Dude, this is not a zero sum game or a sport.

The difference between my posts and yours is that I don't show withering contempt for the POV of others.

You're entitled to your opinion, in the long run, I'll either be wrong, proven right or father time will run
out and we'll never know.

[lionel_messias]

Are we saying someone 4-5 steps removed from the president can’t be a bullshitting grifter when the previous president himself was a bullshitting grifter?

I understand the position of most people now is that they don't trust anyone in public life.
Or maybe 3 or 4 people in the whole world.

[Riquende]

Dude, this is not a zero sum game or a sport.

No, it's a discussion about an interesting subject. One that you unfortunately engage with in bad faith, lie about things you've previously posted, get called out over and over and then periodically decide you're done talking about the subject for a while for some weird reason.

Then, like clockwork, you slink back in and start up with the same basic pattern.

The difference between my posts and yours is that I don't show withering contempt for the POV of others.

Bang wrong, still. I show withering contempt for people who make no attempt to argue their position rationally and instead make baseless, fallacious appeals. Like I've said before in the thread, if we can't work out a basic method to determine the 'truth' of a claim, then there really isn't anywhere for this topic to go, except again:

Lionel: "This important person says this and I can't think of a reason not to believe them."
Interlocuter: "Have they presented any evidence?"
Lionel: "Why would they lie!"

[lionel_messias]

No, it's a discussion about an interesting subject. One that you unfortunately engage with in bad faith, lie about things you've previously posted, get called out over and over and then periodically decide you're done talking about the subject for a while for some weird reason.

Then, like clockwork, you slink back in and start up with the same basic pattern.

Bang wrong, still. I show withering contempt for people who make no attempt to argue their position rationally and instead make baseless, fallacious appeals. Like I've said before in the thread, if we can't work out a basic method to determine the 'truth' of a claim, then there really isn't anywhere for this topic to go, except again:

Lionel: "This important person says this and I can't think of a reason not to believe them."
Interlocuter: "Have they presented any evidence?"
Lionel: "Why would they lie!"

Dude, I honestly don't know what your beef is.

How old are you?

[Riquende]

I don't have a beef at all, I'm very excited at the prospect that UFOs might be shown to be real and it would properly make my day to find out that was verifiably the case. I've posted that opinion a couple of times, hopefully I've made it clear enough for you now.  My age is not a secret, it's in my profile, needless to say as a child of the 80s and all the sci-fi delights we had in that post-Star Wars glow, space travel captured my imagination to a huge degree. Finding out that FTL travel is possible would be a scientific gamechanger to say the least, even if I had to accept we'd never be going into hyperspace in my own lifetime.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of time for random internet claims that get shared in a breathless frenzied whirlwind of "I want to believe"-style lack of scrutiny, and even less for obvious dishonesty. My very first foray into this thread was to observe how the output of certain posters, yourself definitely included, reminded me of the sort of MAGA/Qanon conspiracy nonsense I was seeing elsewhere on the internet citing certain political sources (Gen. Flynn was certainly one, probably Giuliani back then, and others). You both denied the comparison AND claimed to have not heard of the people I was talking about, a logical inconsistency that sadly set the tone for our interactions since.

[Bobber.]

Just read the recent posts. First thought, is there not room in the thread to have separate conversation streams on the topic without the toxicity? One stream that’s for the more evidence and fact based side of the topic and another for continuing UAP updates, news and developments, whatever they may be?

Riquende, whatever you feel aggrieved about, can’t you not let it lie now? Seems from the first paragraph of your last post, we share a lot of common ground (in being excited that UFOs may be real) My thing in the 70s and 80s was Space Lego and Star Fleet particularly, but anything to do with space has always been a fascination.

[lionel_messias]

I don't have a beef at all, I'm very excited at the prospect that UFOs might be shown to be real and it would properly make my day to find out that was verifiably the case. I've posted that opinion a couple of times, hopefully I've made it clear enough for you now.  My age is not a secret, it's in my profile, needless to say as a child of the 80s and all the sci-fi delights we had in that post-Star Wars glow, space travel captured my imagination to a huge degree. Finding out that FTL travel is possible would be a scientific gamechanger to say the least, even if I had to accept we'd never be going into hyperspace in my own lifetime.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of time for random internet claims that get shared in a breathless frenzied whirlwind of "I want to believe"-style lack of scrutiny, and even less for obvious dishonesty. My very first foray into this thread was to observe how the output of certain posters, yourself definitely included, reminded me of the sort of MAGA/Qanon conspiracy nonsense I was seeing elsewhere on the internet citing certain political sources (Gen. Flynn was certainly one, probably Giuliani back then, and others). You both denied the comparison AND claimed to have not heard of the people I was talking about, a logical inconsistency that sadly set the tone for our interactions since.

   It's just the tone you come across with. I'm not looking to cross-examine your posts nor have mine raked over with fire and brimstone


I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong. As you said yourself the topic is interesting. It's fascinating, obviously.


Your beef I think is because there are a small number of officials who take this topic seriously. The majority of the media take it as a joke, or have been trained that way. And whether we like or not, some of the key figures are Department of Defence people and intelligence services types.


This does not mean this is a Qanon conspiracy. This is the beef.


I've quoted an event in New York with a load of investors invited, where Karl Nell spoke for 20 minutes. Is this me plucking something randomly off the internet? He also spoke at the Sol Foundation and was quoted in the Debrief in the now-infamous David Grush article.


Do you think he is random, fly-by-night person? I don't. I think he has been "read-in" to a number of programs (think they call the SAPs) that comes from being very senior in both the aerospace/tech industry and the military.


Everyone is free to disagree with respect but my position has never changed (apart from being pissed off and impatient): there are some very serious, highly qualified folk who seem to be either direct witnesses or organisational witnesses to a phenomenon that is not from China, Russia, Belgium or anywhere we can point to. Unfortunately for my sanity, it also appears that David Grusch and some others maintain the US has a crash retrieval program and has been trying to reverse engineer UAP "materials" for some decades. He has claimed people have been threatened or killed to keep this secret.


This last part is a pain in the ass because it sounds like a Hollywood thriller. If only 20 or more witnesses to the fact would present themselves to Congress, we could move the ball a bit further down the field.

[rob1966]

They're called animals mate.

[[new username under construction]]

Still waiting for someone with first hand experience though, it's all well and good saying I ran this or that............yeah but have YOU literally seen UAP/Aliens etc

[lionel_messias]

Still waiting for someone with first hand experience though, it's all well and good saying I ran this or that............yeah but have YOU literally seen UAP/Aliens etc

Yeah me too.

And also when people like Chuck Schumer draft legislation about it, I also have to ask "what the fuck is going on here?"

[[new username under construction]]

Yeah me too.

And also when people like Chuck Schumer draft legislation about it, I also have to ask "what the fuck is going on here?"

I mean I'd love it to start the dominoes falling but where is the guy/girl who was actually on the SAP/Crash retreval/Alien butt prober team

[rob1966]

I mean I'd love it to start the dominoes falling but where is the guy/girl who was actually on the SAP/Crash retreval/Alien butt prober team

[Riquende]

Your beef I think is because there are a small number of officials who take this topic seriously. The majority of the media take it as a joke, or have been trained that way. And whether we like or not, some of the key figures are Department of Defence people and intelligence services types.

This does not mean this is a Qanon conspiracy. This is the beef.

Despite about a year of this, you don't have me pegged at all, do you?

I'm not remotely interested any number of 'officials'. If you care to think back through the thread, I very rarely, if ever have commented on the sort of people you talk about, I think they're actually irrelevant for the most part, whatever their background, expertise, security clearance, whether they're close enough to Biden to have offered him a hanky when he blew his nose, whatever.

If you honestly think that's my 'beef' then you have incredibly bad judgement, or perhaps comprehension skills.

Because it's the claims we need to look at and analyse. You keep going round in circles with people like Alan_X over whether we should believe this person because of this reason, or whether, they're lying, or a grifting, or whatever. I don't care, I'm already on the next step, waiting for a claim to be analysed by the experts and found not to be wanting.

And I've never said this is Qanon, or conflated you or others with that group. I just think it's funny, because as I've said, MAGA types will say "Gen Flynn says this" and you can make a case that Flynn's career suggests he should be listened to, but he's clearly an egregious conman at this point. The words and phrases you use are objectively the same as the words and phrases they use (I've highlighted examples before), references to 'disclosure', 'psy-op', so on. It doesn't mean you share their beliefs, but it does suggest that you've got a similar 'vibe' going on in your UAP Twitter bubbles or the like, circling the wagons against those you decry as 'debunkers' because they go against the tenets of the cult.

Personally, I find that it's important to me that the things I believe in are true. To that end, I keep an open mind about the possibility that they may not be.

[Alan_X]

Well. That's eight minutes and thirty-one seconds I'll not get back. Absolute moronic drivel.

Rogan and Tucker Carlson in the same room must be nearing critical mass levels of stupid.

[lionel_messias]

Despite about a year of this, you don't have me pegged at all, do you?

I'm not remotely interested any number of 'officials'. If you care to think back through the thread, I very rarely, if ever have commented on the sort of people you talk about, I think they're actually irrelevant for the most part, whatever their background, expertise, security clearance, whether they're close enough to Biden to have offered him a hanky when he blew his nose, whatever.

If you honestly think that's my 'beef' then you have incredibly bad judgement, or perhaps comprehension skills.

Because it's the claims we need to look at and analyse. You keep going round in circles with people like Alan_X over whether we should believe this person because of this reason, or whether, they're lying, or a grifting, or whatever. I don't care, I'm already on the next step, waiting for a claim to be analysed by the experts and found not to be wanting.

And I've never said this is Qanon, or conflated you or others with that group. I just think it's funny, because as I've said, MAGA types will say "Gen Flynn says this" and you can make a case that Flynn's career suggests he should be listened to, but he's clearly an egregious conman at this point. The words and phrases you use are objectively the same as the words and phrases they use (I've highlighted examples before), references to 'disclosure', 'psy-op', so on. It doesn't mean you share their beliefs, but it does suggest that you've got a similar 'vibe' going on in your UAP Twitter bubbles or the like, circling the wagons against those you decry as 'debunkers' because they go against the tenets of the cult.

Personally, I find that it's important to me that the things I believe in are true. To that end, I keep an open mind about the possibility that they may not be.

Still no real idea what you are going on about. 🤯😂

You could analyse the Tic Tac, Nimitz incident from 2014 and David Fravor's witness account?

But where is all the data on that one...

No real fresh photos to analyse, which is one reason people go on about whistle-blowers and another
is various claims there are 20-40 of them who have been referred to Congress.

[Riquende]

Still no real idea what you are going on about. 🤯😂

then you have incredibly bad comprehension skills.

You should probably know by now that trying to feign ignorance gets you nowhere, regardless of emoji usage. Unless you honestly didn't understand it, in which case feel free to ask and I'll break it down into easier chunks.

Besides, did you really just say (paraphrased)....

"Do your own research" ?

Have we moved into peak conspiracy theory levels now?

[lionel_messias]

You should probably know by now that trying to feign ignorance gets you nowhere, regardless of emoji usage.

Besides, did you really just say (paraphrased)....

"Do your own research" ?

Have we moved into peak conspiracy theory levels now?

I did not know you. You do not know me. But the unwritten contract on this site is 'be nice'.

I'm interested in the debate, sometimes or always really but I just don't get why you get so worked up about what I write here!?

Just stick me on ignore!

If great new evidence is presented about UAP, I'm sure you will hear about it.

[Riquende]

I did not know you. You do not know me. But the unwritten contract on this site is 'be nice'.

I'm interested in the debate, sometimes or always really but I just don't get why you get so worked up about what I write here!?

Just stick me on ignore!

If great new evidence is presented about UAP, I'm sure you will hear about it.

So you don't know me, but  you somehow think I have 'beef' with your officials and I get 'so worked up' about what you write?

It's far simpler than that, I enjoy the broader topic, and I find your comments quite interesting, in that, as I've pointed out before, it's very similar to the Qanon conspiracy talk I've seen elsewhere on the internet. I'm actually not that fussed with engaging with you directly - as I've tried to make clear, I prize truth, and you self-evidently aren't really bothered about whether what you believe is true or not. As such, we likely won't be able to negotiate a framework to base a discussion around, so I'm quite happy to stick to passing comment on the things you post that I find worthy of such.

Given that paradigm, why would I want to place you on ignore? You can simply not respond if you don't like what I've posted, and don't want to end up going down the usual route of you getting flustered and making a big show of leaving the thread again.

[lionel_messias]

Hopefully we will get to the truth.

I am in my 40s so another 70 years of not knowing....

No thanks

[Jiminy Cricket]

Hopefully we will get to the truth.

I am in my 40s so another 70 years of not knowing....

No thanks

Alien tech?

[rob1966]

Alien tech?

[PROPER crazyemlyn72]

Ok, I really wish we could talk about this in a friendly manner. Genuinely.
So we now have Karl Nell, backed up by Admiral Gauladet he is also involved with NOAA, but anyway, and then the likes of Mellon, Gary Nolan and grusch. And then you have the direct witnesses Fravor and Dietrich and so many more people saying these things. Anyone, and I mean anyone with an ounce of curiosity couldn't dismiss this and just ignore it. They can't all be lying or making this up for shits and giggles. So many of them are so well paid that they don't need the hassle. But yet they keep telling us something is going on. I'm curious.