Author Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??  (Read 79938 times)

Offline lionel_messias

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1880 on: November 28, 2023, 09:35:44 am »
Yes it was a childish reply.

Best to evaluate and read what is actually being said rather
than make judgements on people.

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything, just observing a topic as it plays out.

Alan, if you think it's just the same old stories, well that's up to you.

You are certainly right about most people, they don't care about this issue:
unless you show them a craft or bring out bodies and then more than just Biden declares on it, then this remains woo-woo and story 25 on the list, on any given day.

This is where we stick until we get ontological shock. Ontological shock
is meant to be shocking. Is why we go round in circles on this thread.

And I genuinely saw a strange red light over my house last night. 😝😀

A sure NHI signal from Sirius Major to stay away from this bloody thread!

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1881 on: November 28, 2023, 11:44:42 am »
Iím intrigued by the believersí obsession with ďontological shock.Ē Like most skeptics, scientific evidence of alien life wouldnít mean a change in my world view. It would be extremely surprising but also fascinating.

It seems to me that the people protecting themselves from ontological shock are those who passionately believe in alien visitation based entirely on third party testimony, fuzzy images and no physical evidence. How shocking or disturbing would it be to find out that such a deeply held belief is nonsense? But of course the beauty of believing in aliens is that absolute proof of non-existence is impossible.

The ontological shock never kicks in as long as thereís belief.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1882 on: November 28, 2023, 11:56:40 am »
Yes it was a childish reply.

Best to evaluate and read what is actually being said rather
than make judgements on people.

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything, just observing a topic as it plays out.
But of course you are. You point to so-called 'evidence' and world-shattering revelations just around the corner almost monthly.
Quote
Alan, if you think it's just the same old stories, well that's up to you.

You are certainly right about most people, they don't care about this issue:
unless you show them a craft or bring out bodies and then more than just Biden declares on it, then this remains woo-woo and story 25 on the list, on any given day.
Try presenting some actual solid evidence instead of vague, shaky video, usually without any proper analysis or any supporting documentary evidence.
Quote
This is where we stick until we get ontological shock. Ontological shock
is meant to be shocking. Is why we go round in circles on this thread.


And I genuinely saw a strange red light over my house last night.

A sure NHI signal from Sirius Major to stay away from this bloody thread!


I supposed that to be a buzz-word/phrase within the AUP community!? So, I looked up the phrase "ontological shock" in association with "AUP" - and what do you know, it is all over the place. Just because you and your fellow believers decide to use the phrase 'ontological shock', it does mean that ontological shock has occurred or will occur. Clue: it has not occurred - and based upon the presented evidence, it is highly unlikely to ever occur. If you mean to apply the phrase purely to yourself, I do not believe you have experienced it. (You were easily persuaded.) But maybe, just maybe, you would experience it if one of your masters is ever caught on camera admitting to the grift. (Even then, I expect, you will claim the video to be fake).

Google search: "ontological shock" "AUP"

Here's another phrase for you: 'bunker mentality'. Every time the predictions and pronouncements of your leaders fail, you regroup and come up with new predictions and pronouncements to make yourselves feel better.* It is the same with all cults of course. You are in a cult. Because every time the latest revelation is debunnked or exposed as fraud, you come back for more.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bunker+mentality

* More accurately, it is your grifter leaders who come up with the new pronouncements and you all follow.

I regret that you take my words as personal attacks. I suppose they will come across that way. But, frankly, I do not really care. I think you are beyond saving - you are unpersuadable.** My words are meant more for those on the fringes of believing this guff as though there is good evidence of anything beyond that grifters are gonna grift, and some people will fall for it.

** For the record, I (and I expect all the other here calling out this nonsense) might be persuaded of intelligent alien visitors - just produce some solid evidence. If you could even produce some fairly good evidence, you might have some of us reevaluating our position and move to 'maybe'. But shaky, vague (debunked) videos without any metadata will not do it for us.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 03:23:38 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1883 on: November 28, 2023, 12:01:04 pm »
Isn't that what they are trying to do with this bill? clear up some of the programs so they can find out what these things might be? Surely to get the evidence you need all areas open for research?

Offline lionel_messias

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1884 on: November 28, 2023, 12:13:32 pm »
Isn't that what they are trying to do with this bill? clear up some of the programs so they can find out what these things might be? Surely to get the evidence you need all areas open for research?

Believe they are, and also to provide some sort of framework for releasing more information to the public.

To anyone asking me to provide concrete evidence......that will be called disclosure! Or the start of it, anyway. I'm sure there will be other threads opened at the time when that happens.

And I'm not in favour of any more "fuzzy videos" either, we need artefacts and science. The best chance of persuading most people probably resides in a hangar somewhere too.
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1885 on: November 28, 2023, 12:37:56 pm »
Iím intrigued by the believersí obsession with ďontological shock.Ē Like most skeptics, scientific evidence of alien life wouldnít mean a change in my world view. It would be extremely surprising but also fascinating.

It seems to me that the people protecting themselves from ontological shock are those who passionately believe in alien visitation based entirely on third party testimony, fuzzy images and no physical evidence. How shocking or disturbing would it be to find out that such a deeply held belief is nonsense? But of course the beauty of believing in aliens is that absolute proof of non-existence is impossible.

The ontological shock never kicks in as long as thereís belief.



I do not believe in Aliens.


I do believe in transparency though:


https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/4329153-why-are-key-republicans-fighting-transparency-on-ufos/
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1886 on: November 28, 2023, 12:57:07 pm »
For people saying "present evidence", well the problem is they won't give it to us. The fact that they have stuff from Nimitz that was taken away, says enough. Transparency my arse. That's why this is causing so much trouble. I'm a hell of a lot being more comfortable with the fact I'm wrong, and that there is no NHI intelligence here. Because if there is a precense it's probably not good for us. So I'm a believer that wants to be wrong. But the way the US intelligence behaves it makes me dead suspicious. Release the videos and prove us wrong. No problem showing us a Chinese balloon, bit what about the shootdown over Alaska the same month? Couldn't take a pic of that lads? Seriously?

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1887 on: November 28, 2023, 06:57:58 pm »
Iím intrigued by the believersí obsession with ďontological shock.Ē Like most skeptics, scientific evidence of alien life wouldnít mean a change in my world view. It would be extremely surprising but also fascinating.

It seems to me that the people protecting themselves from ontological shock are those who passionately believe in alien visitation based entirely on third party testimony, fuzzy images and no physical evidence. How shocking or disturbing would it be to find out that such a deeply held belief is nonsense? But of course the beauty of believing in aliens is that absolute proof of non-existence is impossible.

The ontological shock never kicks in as long as thereís belief.

Exactly my thoughts. 

In two posts we've had talk of 'narratives' and 'ontological shock' which smacks of projection somewhat.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1888 on: November 28, 2023, 07:31:24 pm »


I do not believe in Aliens.


I do believe in transparency though:


https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/4329153-why-are-key-republicans-fighting-transparency-on-ufos/

Really? Marik von Rennenkampf is one of the worst UFO grifters out there and The Hill was bought by Nexstar who own Newsnation (best known for the Grusch interview) and employ George Knapp. If you believe in transparency, itís transparently clear that your source is a nexus of grift and cross promotion of UFO nonsense for clicks and viewers.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1889 on: November 29, 2023, 03:46:17 pm »
For people saying "present evidence", well the problem is they won't give it to us. The fact that they have stuff from Nimitz that was taken away, says enough. Transparency my arse. That's why this is causing so much trouble. I'm a hell of a lot being more comfortable with the fact I'm wrong, and that there is no NHI intelligence here. Because if there is a precense it's probably not good for us. So I'm a believer that wants to be wrong. But the way the US intelligence behaves it makes me dead suspicious. Release the videos and prove us wrong. No problem showing us a Chinese balloon, bit what about the shootdown over Alaska the same month? Couldn't take a pic of that lads? Seriously?

There is no evidence for "the evidence" though. Just some claims, often by known grifters.
And quite honestly, lack of transparency doesn't equal aliens.

Offline lionel_messias

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1890 on: November 29, 2023, 04:03:34 pm »
Really? Marik von Rennenkampf is one of the worst UFO grifters out there and The Hill was bought by Nexstar who own Newsnation (best known for the Grusch interview) and employ George Knapp. If you believe in transparency, itís transparently clear that your source is a nexus of grift and cross promotion of UFO nonsense for clicks and viewers.

It is evident that no source or medium will ever satisfy you. You will always find a route to find some way or other to identify people making actual money from consumed content. Big shocker.

Like I said, I don't believe in aliens.

The transparency I'm talking about might come from NDAA legislation (in the balance, that one) or it might come from whistleblower leaks, or indeed it might come from scientific programs that are using calibrated instruments to observe the skies (and oceans perhaps).


It is abundantly clear though you will characterise anybody who investigates what you do not believe as a "grifter" and this blanket assertion just does not work. It is wrong.

So, we'll see.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1891 on: November 29, 2023, 04:16:24 pm »
There is no evidence for "the evidence" though. Just some claims, often by known grifters.
And quite honestly, lack of transparency doesn't equal aliens.

Yes, lack of transparency does not equal aliens or anything else. But it does need to be corrected and fully examined. In the case of the US, you are talking about Billions of dollars of funding - Congress requires oversight.

There are claims but there is also testimony. Commander David Fravor (once again!) chased an "object" in his fighter jet. Similar objects were tracked by Naval radar for over two weeks. This is data, as well as evidence. He testimony was made under oath to Congress.

All we can reasonably ask, and surely you cannot argue against this, is that more or even all of the data from such incidents is reported, and given to scientists to analyse.

My assertion and my belief is purely that the Navy and other branches of the US Military have FAR far more data, information and evidence than has ever come to light.

This surely must be the case, and then you get on the subject of these individuals, who have had high-level access to US intel and for some reason, they keep going on and on and on about a phenomenon they say is real.


If every single one of these people is a grifter, looking for a book deal, I look forward to the strangest, most convoluted psy-op of all time being fully unravelled.

These guys will make Keyser Soze look like Willy Wonka when their masks of deceit are fully unveiled.

And the 1000s of people that have seen things with their own eyes over at least 7 decades?? An amazing mass delusion from folk bored of sports and religion.


Or perhaps not.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1892 on: December 1, 2023, 12:41:08 am »
---If you've not been paying attention, it seems we are going to get some form of disclosure in the US.

Some rather unsavoury politicians (some of them) are debating over how this will be done but the central argument seems to be a pushback on excessive secrecy from unelected officials and lobbyists from the defence industry.

What shape the disclosure is and who pulls the trigger is the big unknown.


Cue: waves of scorn and lovely pushback.


Alan: but Dino beavers! Skinwalker Ranch! Grusch likes Star Trek TNG!
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1893 on: December 2, 2023, 01:56:17 pm »
Unbelievable, just a few weeks ago a line was drawn under the thread for 2023 and we had speeches, awards, champagne etc... And yet the usual suspects just started straight back up again before it was even December!

Still, it is quite gratifying that both Lionel and Bobber continue to prove me right, over and over. If I had the time and the inclination I'd go through the thread and count just how many days (or sometimes hours!) it takes them to start posting again after their grand declarations of "not posting in here for a while", declarations that usually involved being caught out lying again, and then deciding that running away for a bit is better than owning up to being wrong.

And of course it's equally gratifying, to a degree they'll probably never realise, that they continue to prove correct my original assertions of similar behaviour to Qanon et al! Just in the last week or so we've got:

Psyop!


this has been some elaborate 80 year psyop of some kind.




Disclosure!

---If you've not been paying attention, it seems we are going to get some form of disclosure in the US.



Fictional narratives!

Edit. Itís like a soap opera.
Not just a soap opera, it is a political thriller.



Yep, still the same energy, over and over again, months and months down the line. They just can't help it I know, they must dwell in their cultist safe spaces until some new nothing happens and they run back here to share it with people who are at best uninterested in their bleatings but otherwise generally ready to pull them up over it.

Still, it's a cracking thread to read along with. As I say, just tremendous gratification with just about every one of their posts. Superb stuff.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1894 on: December 2, 2023, 01:58:03 pm »
For people saying "present evidence", well the problem is they won't give it to us.

"You wouldn't know my evidence, it goes to a different school. In Canada."
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1895 on: December 2, 2023, 03:10:54 pm »
For people saying "present evidence", well the problem is they won't give it to us. The fact that they have stuff from Nimitz that was taken away, says enough. Transparency my arse. That's why this is causing so much trouble. I'm a hell of a lot being more comfortable with the fact I'm wrong, and that there is no NHI intelligence here. Because if there is a precense it's probably not good for us. So I'm a believer that wants to be wrong. But the way the US intelligence behaves it makes me dead suspicious. Release the videos and prove us wrong. No problem showing us a Chinese balloon, bit what about the shootdown over Alaska the same month? Couldn't take a pic of that lads? Seriously?



Present evidence.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1896 on: December 2, 2023, 06:12:57 pm »
---If you've not been paying attention, it seems we are going to get some form of disclosure in the US.

Some rather unsavoury politicians (some of them) are debating over how this will be done but the central argument seems to be a pushback on excessive secrecy from unelected officials and lobbyists from the defence industry.

What shape the disclosure is and who pulls the trigger is the big unknown.


Cue: waves of scorn and lovely pushback.


Alan: but Dino beavers! Skinwalker Ranch! Grusch likes Star Trek TNG!

That old trope where you push the same people and testimonies yet rail against getting the same retorts.

I look forward to the big reveal.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1897 on: December 2, 2023, 08:05:55 pm »

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1898 on: December 2, 2023, 08:22:27 pm »
GB News jumping on the bandwagon;

https://www.gbnews.com/news/world/cia-ufo-china-russia-latest-alien


I'm going to wait for the definitive story from the Beano and Dandy ahead of GB News.
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1899 on: December 2, 2023, 08:33:35 pm »
And the 1000s of people that have seen things with their own eyes over at least 7 decades?? An amazing mass delusion from folk bored of sports and religion.

Or perhaps not.


Funny you mention religion.

How many thousands, perhaps even millions of people through history would say they have seen proof of (a) God with their own eyes?

Do you think they all really saw something as well?

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1900 on: December 3, 2023, 12:21:24 am »
GB News jumping on the bandwagon;

https://www.gbnews.com/news/world/cia-ufo-china-russia-latest-alien

I would like to know just what the criteria is for someone to be labelled in a legitimate (chortle) news article as a "UFO Expert", as Nick Pope is here.

I asked our old friend ChatGPT to write a scene from a play in which we explore this potential schism between the subject and the sobriquet:

Title: "Unidentified Expert"

Characters:

     NICK: A self-proclaimed UFO expert (Out of respect, I'm going to refrain from renaming this character either Lionel or Bobber. Well, no, not respect exactly, but currently in the Priquendeverse Bobber and Lionel are (I think) still fighting giant robots on an alien planet and so aren't able to engage in this conversation. Instead we'll bring Nick Pope himself into canon)
    ALAN: Nick's skeptical friend (Alan's Priquendeverse debut)

(Scene: Nick's living room. Nick is excitedly showing Alan his collection of UFO books and conspiracy theories.)

NICK: (gesturing to his bookshelf) Alan, feast your eyes on this! The definitive guide to extraterrestrial encounters, government cover-ups, and the secrets of the universe. I've been honing my skills, studying the skies, and let me tell you, Alan, I've become quite the UFO expert.

ALAN: (sarcastically) Oh, really? So, what makes you an expert?

NICK: (proudly) The fact that I can't identify anything in the sky! Think about it, Alan. Every time I see a light, a speck, or a blink, I can confidently say, "That's a UFO." It's foolproof.

ALAN: (laughs) Or it could just be a bird, a kite, or even a balloon. Not everything in the sky is an alien spaceship.

NICK: (waves him off) Alan! You're missing the point. If I can't identify it, it's unidentified. Ergo, it's a UFO.

ALAN: (skeptical) So, your entire expertise is based on your inability to identify things?

NICK: (grinning) Exactly! The more I can't identify, the better my expertise becomes. It's like a paradox, a cosmic riddle. I'm a UFO expert because the sky is full of things I can't explain.

ALAN: (shaking his head) Nick Pope, you're unbelievable. I think you just enjoy the mystery and excitement of it all.

NICK: (leaning in) Maybe, Alan. But just wait. One day, you'll see. The truth is out there, and I'm determined to find it.

(Alan sighs, realizing that convincing Nick otherwise is a futile effort. They continue their conversation, with Nick passionately sharing more UFO theories and Alan trying to keep a straight face.)

End scene.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1901 on: December 3, 2023, 12:35:55 am »
Hang on. Did ChatGPT really write that? Surely not!? It is just too on the money! ;D
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1902 on: December 3, 2023, 12:40:33 am »
Funny you mention religion.

How many thousands, perhaps even millions of people through history would say they have seen proof of (a) God with their own eyes?

Do you think they all really saw something as well?

If people wish to believe in G_d, I fully respect that. There might even be some on
this forum. It is their right to do so, I would never mock that.


With UAP, I would like to see physical evidence and for humans to gain a new understanding of science as
a result. That's my view anyway.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1903 on: December 3, 2023, 12:44:01 am »
If people wish to believe in G_d, I fully respect that. There might even be some on
this forum. It is their right to do so, I would never mock that.


With UAP, I would like to see physical evidence and for humans to gain a new understanding of science as
a result. That's my view anyway.



Ooh, Gary Davies?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1904 on: December 3, 2023, 03:28:24 am »
I had a UFO at least for a moment. A cop pulled me over and asked the most stupid question all cops ask "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I said "probably speeding", to which he replied "No. For low flying." Hence, I was driving a flying object and it was unidentified until the cop pulled the license plate info.

For a moment...
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1905 on: December 3, 2023, 08:49:02 am »
If people wish to believe in G_d, I fully respect that. There might even be some on
this forum. It is their right to do so, I would never mock that.


With UAP, I would like to see physical evidence and for humans to gain a new understanding of science as
a result. That's my view anyway.

I respect peopleís right to believe in gods. But I reserve my right to assert that itís complete fantasy. Iíve no respect for the belief itself.

UAP as aliens is just a different branch on the same magical wish tree.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1906 on: December 3, 2023, 09:42:27 am »
I respect peopleís right to believe in gods. But I reserve my right to assert that itís complete fantasy. Iíve no respect for the belief itself.

UAP as aliens is just a different branch on the same magical wish tree.

Well. To be fair. We don't know everything about reality, so aren't in a position to state definitively even what it is - happy for you to correct me. Do you know what reality is? What is it for? If it's for nothing and random, do we know that? if it's for something and not random, do we know that? Is there just one reality or more than one? Will we ever know? Is it ever knowable.

Regarding aliens, it seems a strange position to think they don't or can't exist in the reality that we think we belong to. Our Earth is 4 billion years old and in that time it's evolved a middling, backward race that has lurched from the surface into (very) local solar system travel. Planets that formed earlier by a magnitude of millions or billions of years are likely to be ahead of us. To think that aliens don't and can't exist ironically goes back to religion itself - the idea that the Earth was 'special' and the 'centre of the Universe' - people like Galileo Galilei showed us that the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe and actually orbited around the sun. Since then we've found that our galaxy isn't even special and that our Solar System orbits around it. Our galaxy itself orbits around the local group, which in turn orbits around the virgo supercluster (Loosely, to be fair).

It seems difficult to imagine that they can get to Earth at all, given the distances, but even our race have thought of ways to breach the interstellar vastness - Colony Ships, Warping of space/time, Hypersleep and the like. But that's assuming that our imagining of what reality is, is correct. If other dimensions exist (Via something like branes) then perhaps travel could be based on moving between the edges rather than having to physically move through space.

Who knows? It's a possible and I don't know enough about our reality to prove or disprove anything - especially using something as absurd as 'common sense' (See Ester McVeigh). So my mind becomes open. If aliens aren't walking among us then I will be unsurprised. If aliens are walking among us then I'll be a bit surprised, but not massively. If reality turns out to be exactly what we think it is, I'll be unsurprised. If reality turns out to be something entirely different than what we think then I'll be surprised, but not massively.

We haven't got all the answers and the more answers we get, the more questions remain. Humanity has been at this science lark seriously for maybe 1,000 years - modern science for a few hundred years. It's reasonable to assume that if a civillisation has existed for millions or billions of years then (to quote Arthur C. Clarke's three laws) :-

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1907 on: December 3, 2023, 09:58:37 am »
That's a great post, Andy.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1908 on: December 3, 2023, 11:21:23 am »
I have no doubt that in the vastness of the universe there must be life beyond Earth.
However the unfathomable distances between planets (the centre of our own galaxy alone is 30,000 light years away) and the relative short lifespan of most species means that the odds of us, in our phase of existence, bumping into a contemporary advanced life form are highly highly improbable indeed.

If evidence is ever found of any other life it would likely be for a life form long since extinct or a simple organic life form yet to develop.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1909 on: December 3, 2023, 11:23:54 am »
I have no doubt that in the vastness of the universe there must be life beyond Earth.
However the unfathomable distances between planets (the centre of our own galaxy alone is 30,000 light years away) and the relative short lifespan of most species means that the odds of us, in our phase of existence, bumping into a contemporary advanced life form are highly highly improbable indeed.

If evidence is ever found of any other life it would likely be for a life form long since extinct or a simple organic life form yet to develop.


"relative short lifespan of most species"

How is it possible to know the lifespan of any species outside our solar system?
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1910 on: December 3, 2023, 11:38:40 am »
"relative short lifespan of most species"

How is it possible to know the lifespan of any species outside our solar system?

Fair point
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1911 on: December 3, 2023, 11:43:08 am »
Well. To be fair. We don't know everything about reality, so aren't in a position to state definitively even what it is - happy for you to correct me. Do you know what reality is? What is it for? If it's for nothing and random, do we know that? if it's for something and not random, do we know that? Is there just one reality or more than one? Will we ever know? Is it ever knowable.
This sounds like a 'God of the gaps' argument.
Quote
Regarding aliens, it seems a strange position to think they don't or can't exist in the reality that we think we belong to. Our Earth is 4 billion years old and in that time it's evolved a middling, backward race that has lurched from the surface into (very) local solar system travel. Planets that formed earlier by a magnitude of millions or billions of years are likely to be ahead of us. To think that aliens don't and can't exist ironically goes back to religion itself - the idea that the Earth was 'special' and the 'centre of the Universe' - people like Galileo Galilei showed us that the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe and actually orbited around the sun. Since then we've found that our galaxy isn't even special and that our Solar System orbits around it. Our galaxy itself orbits around the local group, which in turn orbits around the virgo supercluster (Loosely, to be fair).
I do not recall anyone in this thread stating that aliens do not exist. The problem is supposing that any aliens would be close enough to Earth to travel here in any kind of reasonable time frame.

We do not understand all the barriers for life to start, evolve, and avoid being snuffed out before being technologically advanced enough to attempt any form of spaceflight, let alone travel between distant stars.* We have observed no good evidence for aliens, anywhere, at any distance from Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

There are fundamental barriers to space travel between the stars. It would take extraordinary effort (and a very long time) to travel to even the nearest star. Any alien race would need to be very motivated and think very far ahead to consider such a journey - and this is just to the closest star, which is highly unlikely to be interesting.

We have been sending out radio signals for a little over 100 years. Those signals have reached less than 100 star systems. That's extremely small pool of planets which might be inhabited by intelligent space-faring aliens who might wish to visit Earth. And then, there is all the tine it would take for then to reach here here. Even if they set off after detecting our earliest signals (which were weak and easily missed or lost in background noise at those distances), and possessed some really advanced propulsion systems which gets them to a significant proportion of the speed of light, you are surely only talking about the nearest few stars from where they could have conceivably set off. The pool has now shrunk to just a few stars at best, and we have yet to detect evidence of alien life, let alone advanced technology, in the whole of the observable universe.

* The chances of highly technologically advanced life existing within our local group would seem remote in the extreme.
Quote
It seems difficult to imagine that they can get to Earth at all, given the distances, but even our race have thought of ways to breach the interstellar vastness - Colony Ships, Warping of space/time, Hypersleep and the like. But that's assuming that our imagining of what reality is, is correct. If other dimensions exist (Via something like branes) then perhaps travel could be based on moving between the edges rather than having to physically move through space.
They would need to breach some fundamental physics for this highly speculative 'means of travel'. And once they have cracked that nugget, they would need to repeatedly fuck up the parking job and crash at the end of the journey.

Colony ships are just about conceivable, I guess. It would require a truly massive project and surely would be a desperate act. But why would they travel to Earth? Why would they suppose that's the place we should go? Because, surely, they would need to have set off long before there was any evidence of intelligent life on Earth which is detectable from a distant star.

'Hypersleep', same basic problems.

As for 'higher dimensional aliens' - even if higher dimensions exist in reality (instead of purely within mathematical models), the maths makes for a universe which cannot exist in a useful fashion. So, you can use maths to model higher dimensions, but the same mathematical modelling leads to problems with gravity and other forces.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/y2i3kZVcG5s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/y2i3kZVcG5s</a>

Quote
Who knows? It's a possible and I don't know enough about our reality to prove or disprove anything - especially using something as absurd as 'common sense' (See Ester McVeigh). So my mind becomes open. If aliens aren't walking among us then I will be unsurprised. If aliens are walking among us then I'll be a bit surprised, but not massively. If reality turns out to be exactly what we think it is, I'll be unsurprised. If reality turns out to be something entirely different than what we think then I'll be surprised, but not massively.
'Walking amongst us' seems an absurd proposition.* On the one hand, aliens regularly fuck up their parking jobs when reaching earth, and their space ships are detectable; and on the other, they have the ability to disguise their appearance to the point where they can walk amongst us undetected (and avoid all accidents). The whole idea is plucked out of thin air, and based upon pictures and videos which are not immediately explainable to all people (or are outright hoaxes).

* Yes, I realise you might not have meant that literally, but still, you wrote it, so I addressed it.
Quote
We haven't got all the answers and the more answers we get, the more questions remain. Humanity has been at this science lark seriously for maybe 1,000 years - modern science for a few hundred years. It's reasonable to assume that if a civillisation has existed for millions or billions of years then (to quote Arthur C. Clarke's three laws) :-

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clark was a good fellow, an undersea explorer, and TV host. He studied mathematics and physics at university. But his was not a practicing scientist (some electrical engineering from WWII). He primarily worked as a science fiction writer. Perhaps his comments on the matters of science and scientists should be considered within those contexts.

The problems to be overcome by alien race in science are basic and fundamental. They would first need to be aware of us. They would need to have discovered something completely at odds with all known science, and then to have exploited it to travel huge distances. And, then would need to be local - real local (cosmologically speaking) - the nearest few stars. So, all that. Or, it is a mixture of technical glitches, optical artifacts, weather phenomenon; and hoaxes. All of which are generally understood.

"We haven't got all the answers and the more answers we get, the more questions remain." This takes me back to my opening remarks - it 'God of the gaps' stuff. I'd love to be proven wrong. But their is just no good evidence for aliens visiting Earth, interdimensional travel, etc. On the contrary, all the available evidence is against these things.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1912 on: December 3, 2023, 01:45:54 pm »
As has been said, that is god of the gaps stuff. Just because there is the unknown does not mean there is a god or deities. You canít just say youíve no proof that x doesnít exist while positing its existence without any proof. The celestial teapot analogy illustrates this.

Most deism is completely unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific. And, to quote Hitchens, the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In religion and ufology, we donít even have basic evidence never mind extraordinary evidence. They should both be considered hokum* from a scientific perspective until such time as compelling evidence is forthcoming.

And having a position that UAP are not aliens isnít the same as saying the universe has no other advanced civilisations. Nor is it saying we know everything about what future tech is possible. No one on this thread has said such things. Also, Galileo as an example isnít at all adequate when looking at modern Science.

*You can and should separate terrestrial UAP investigations from this. But thatís the realm of national security rather than physics, surely?
« Last Edit: December 3, 2023, 04:19:51 pm by thejbs »

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1913 on: December 4, 2023, 01:12:25 pm »
This sounds like a 'God of the gaps' argument.I do not recall anyone in this thread stating that aliens do not exist. The problem is supposing that any aliens would be close enough to Earth to travel here in any kind of reasonable time frame.

We do not understand all the barriers for life to start, evolve, and avoid being snuffed out before being technologically advanced enough to attempt any form of spaceflight, let alone travel between distant stars.* We have observed no good evidence for aliens, anywhere, at any distance from Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

There are fundamental barriers to space travel between the stars. It would take extraordinary effort (and a very long time) to travel to even the nearest star. Any alien race would need to be very motivated and think very far ahead to consider such a journey - and this is just to the closest star, which is highly unlikely to be interesting.

We have been sending out radio signals for a little over 100 years. Those signals have reached less than 100 star systems. That's extremely small pool of planets which might be inhabited by intelligent space-faring aliens who might wish to visit Earth. And then, there is all the tine it would take for then to reach here here. Even if they set off after detecting our earliest signals (which were weak and easily missed or lost in background noise at those distances), and possessed some really advanced propulsion systems which gets them to a significant proportion of the speed of light, you are surely only talking about the nearest few stars from where they could have conceivably set off. The pool has now shrunk to just a few stars at best, and we have yet to detect evidence of alien life, let alone advanced technology, in the whole of the observable universe.

* The chances of highly technologically advanced life existing within our local group would seem remote in the extreme.They would need to breach some fundamental physics for this highly speculative 'means of travel'. And once they have cracked that nugget, they would need to repeatedly fuck up the parking job and crash at the end of the journey.

Colony ships are just about conceivable, I guess. It would require a truly massive project and surely would be a desperate act. But why would they travel to Earth? Why would they suppose that's the place we should go? Because, surely, they would need to have set off long before there was any evidence of intelligent life on Earth which is detectable from a distant star.

'Hypersleep', same basic problems.

As for 'higher dimensional aliens' - even if higher dimensions exist in reality (instead of purely within mathematical models), the maths makes for a universe which cannot exist in a useful fashion. So, you can use maths to model higher dimensions, but the same mathematical modelling leads to problems with gravity and other forces.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/y2i3kZVcG5s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/y2i3kZVcG5s</a>
'Walking amongst us' seems an absurd proposition.* On the one hand, aliens regularly fuck up their parking jobs when reaching earth, and their space ships are detectable; and on the other, they have the ability to disguise their appearance to the point where they can walk amongst us undetected (and avoid all accidents). The whole idea is plucked out of thin air, and based upon pictures and videos which are not immediately explainable to all people (or are outright hoaxes).

* Yes, I realise you might not have meant that literally, but still, you wrote it, so I addressed it.Arthur C. Clark was a good fellow, an undersea explorer, and TV host. He studied mathematics and physics at university. But his was not a practicing scientist (some electrical engineering from WWII). He primarily worked as a science fiction writer. Perhaps his comments on the matters of science and scientists should be considered within those contexts.

The problems to be overcome by alien race in science are basic and fundamental. They would first need to be aware of us. They would need to have discovered something completely at odds with all known science, and then to have exploited it to travel huge distances. And, then would need to be local - real local (cosmologically speaking) - the nearest few stars. So, all that. Or, it is a mixture of technical glitches, optical artifacts, weather phenomenon; and hoaxes. All of which are generally understood.

"We haven't got all the answers and the more answers we get, the more questions remain." This takes me back to my opening remarks - it 'God of the gaps' stuff. I'd love to be proven wrong. But their is just no good evidence for aliens visiting Earth, interdimensional travel, etc. On the contrary, all the available evidence is against these things.

A great and interesting post :)


I was thinking about the 'radio waves' and have been reading several books around the Fermi Paradox of late, but the Universe is far bigger than our one galaxy. The distances there between those islands of stars is truly unreal.

But you'd think if a race were massively advanced then would they still use the basic stuff we use for comms?

Imagine the Native Americans that communicated with smoke signals. If they thought 'Well we use smoke signals, and we haven't seen any other ones other than the ones our tribe use' then they wouldn't have been aware of radio communications because that technology wasn't just beyond them at the time, it was unknowable.

Radio comms (And in fact all our comms) sticks to the speed of light (or sound) - if you have a race that is millions or years old then, if they could have cracked that limit or use some other form then it could be literally unknowable to us at our current tech level (Type I) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Regarding 'higher dimensions' - you are right they would be 'curled up' and unvisitable, but that's not what I meant - I meant branes (not p-branes or D-branes - which are objects) which is a new idea based on the multiverse idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology within 'the bulk' (Also: hhttps://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0404011.pdf )


As a side note, I've been reading about 'Hubble Tension' recently if you want to read something :)
« Last Edit: December 4, 2023, 01:37:25 pm by Andy @ Allerton! »
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1914 on: December 4, 2023, 08:34:18 pm »
Apparently the disclosure bill has been gutted so back to square one

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1915 on: December 4, 2023, 08:38:47 pm »
Apparently the disclosure bill has been gutted so back to square one


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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1916 on: December 4, 2023, 09:14:29 pm »
Apparently the disclosure bill has been gutted so back to square one

Well that's just more proof of the cover up, just as debunkers' heads were about to fall off! It's all a psyop! What don't they want us to know?!

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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1917 on: December 4, 2023, 09:25:01 pm »
Apparently the disclosure bill has been gutted so back to square one
That's a shame. As I had just come round to becoming a believer. We were so close to learning about all the alien tech, alien bodies, interstellar space craft, and not to mention, the worldwide conspiracy by a cabal of interdimensional lizards (disguised as Democrats and Socialists) to hide it all from us. No matter. We will soon have a new timetable for the big reveal. I'm on tenterhooks; I just know I will not sleep soundly until we know the new date for the reveal.

Here's hoping that Trump gets in so that we are assured of learning the truth. He's fab.

By the way, I was walking past a mobile phone antenna earlier today and I experienced a tingling sensation in my chest, about where my heart is located. As it turned out, I had just received a call and the phone set to vibrate. But I bet if I didn't, I still would have experienced the tingling sensation. And none of you can prove otherwise.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1918 on: December 4, 2023, 09:28:51 pm »
Well that's just more proof of the cover up, just as debunkers' heads were about to fall off! It's all a psyop! What don't they want us to know?!
Tell me about it. Chuck Schumer is a crafty lizard, playing 19-dimensional chess (he's from the 19th dimension you know). He's not seeking this legislation to pass - he secretly sabotaged it.
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Re: UAPs over America: real or balloons??
« Reply #1919 on: December 4, 2023, 09:53:09 pm »
I experienced a tingling sensation in my chest, about where my heart is located.

Can I offer you use of a magical alien medbed at this trying time? You just need to ping a message to this random gmail account and pay the booking fee and then bam! Wait for further instructions.

I've seen countless people talking about them for years and as I can't think of any reason why they'd be lying, by process of elimination there must be something in it. Checkmate, debunkers!

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