Topic: Labour leadership contest: Who is your choice?

[cloggypop]

Should we just call her a liar then?

If she is then fine. The shite nicknames are pathetic though.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

McDonnell and tommy Corbyn, failed entrepreneur and son of Jeremy, pushing the burgon for deputy as it looks like he will miss out on the nominations

[Red-Soldier]

I think he just meant the childish name calling. 

[Zeb]

Don't know if it's of use to others, or yourself Andy, but Jen Williams (Manchester Evening News) is trying to get interviews with all the leadership candidates. She's evenhanded and, as you'll tell from the two interviews so far, she tries to get beyond soundbites.

She did a long (audio) interview on a bus with Lisa Nandy for the podcast she does: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/north-poll-podcast-episode-eight-17488846

And her latest was with Keir Starmer on a tram: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/keir-starmer-labour-party-leadership-17553263

Think there'll be more so worth keeping an eye out for them. Would be very, very surprised if Rebecca Long Bailey ducked speaking to her.

[Alan_X]

so are you saying that a gritty northern lass cannot have had a good education and qualified as a solicitor then?
Or is this clap trap simply because you think she might be corbyn’s choice? 

No that's the opposite of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is don't be embarrassed by education. Her problem seems to be that she thinks or has been advised to downplay her education and her job - pretend to be something she's not. It's pandering to the Marxist romanticised version of the proletariat that has fuck all to do with real people whether they are northern, southern, scottish or from anywhere else.

[Alan_X]

I think he just meant the childish name calling. 

Fair enough.

[Sangria]

If she is then fine. The shite nicknames are pathetic though.

You mean like Bliar?

[Zeb]

No that's the opposite of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is don't be embarrassed by education. Her problem seems to be that she thinks or has been advised to downplay her education and her job - pretend to be something she's not. It's pandering to the Marxist romanticised version of the proletariat that has fuck all to do with real people whether they are northern, southern, scottish or from anywhere else.

Was a relief to read an interview with Keir Starmer where he talks about aspiration and parents wanting their kids to have a better life. Think there'll be loads around his age and onwards who'll be first in their families to university and so on. Without wishing to be rude about her, Long Bailey seems a politician in search of her own identity and somewhat rootless in terms of where she's coming from politically. Even when she speaks about the Green New Deal as being her 'thing' I know she really irritates a lot of people who did a ton of the groundwork over the past 20 years which was appropriated. Contrast with Rayner who is being pretty forthright on where she wants changes in the party (and I know she's running for deputy heh).

Could be I'm missing something about her. Other than the conformity, which is a positive for some and a negative for others, is there anything to her beyond bromides for parts of the party?

[cloggypop]

You mean like Bliar?

Both are shite. No need to be taking sides here.

[classycarra]

Both are shite. No need to be taking sides here.

They are, they look daft

[Red-Soldier]

Edited poll - Lewis couldn't get enough MP support.

[Circa1892]

Absolutely beggars belief there are 22 elected MPs who think Richard Burgon is worthwhile having in a Deputy Leader election.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Absolutely beggars belief there are 22 elected MPs who think Richard Burgon is worthwhile having in a Deputy Leader election.

It would be safe to label all 22 of them as thick as fuck. This could prove a short cut in assessing the abilities of these MPs.

[filopastry]

It appears that there was a big push by Corbyn and McDonnell to get MPs to back Burgon, I can only assume he would have fallen well short otherwise.

[Circa1892]

It appears that there was a big push by Corbyn and McDonnell to get MPs to back Burgon, I can only assume he would have fallen well short otherwise.

I mean it's mad anyone would listen to those two failures at this stage - but even allowing for that...

[Robinred]

Was a relief to read an interview with Keir Starmer where he talks about aspiration and parents wanting their kids to have a better life. Think there'll be loads around his age and onwards who'll be first in their families to university and so on. Without wishing to be rude about her, Long Bailey seems a politician in search of her own identity and somewhat rootless in terms of where she's coming from politically. Even when she speaks about the Green New Deal as being her 'thing' I know she really irritates a lot of people who did a ton of the groundwork over the past 20 years which was appropriated. Contrast with Rayner who is being pretty forthright on where she wants changes in the party (and I know she's running for deputy heh).

Could be I'm missing something about her. Other than the conformity, which is a positive for some and a negative for others, is there anything to her beyond bromides for parts of the party?

Good read that. “This is a necessarily crafted game” - absolutely it is, and Starmer is fully aware of how necessary it is not to exacerbate division. He’s a shrewd and deft politician, and I’ve concluded that the qualities he possesses are far more vital than any charisma he is claimed to lack.

If he wins, and Rayner gets the deputy gig, I’ll be sufficiently optimistic to hope for an electable future for the Party. And I absolutely agree with those who believe that Milne and the Murrays et al need replacing.

[Nobby Reserve]

You mean like Bliar?

I've been typing it that way for so long it's automatic.

[J_Kopite]

LIE-BORE!

[Red-Soldier]

“I am disappointed that the party has chosen not to organise leadership and deputy leadership hustings in every Labour party region and nation,” said Starmer.

“I am concerned that this decision does not reflect well on the party and will be a step backwards in the whole movement’s determination to take the argument for a radical Labour government back to the country.”

[killer-heels]

Been impressed more and more by Raynor and Nandy. Still, Starmer is the best candidate but both Raynor and Nandy have a possible future leadership stint in them.

Long-Bailey continues to be utter, utter dog shit.

[Zeb]

Good read that. “This is a necessarily crafted game” - absolutely it is, and Starmer is fully aware of how necessary it is not to exacerbate division. He’s a shrewd and deft politician, and I’ve concluded that the qualities he possesses are far more vital than any charisma he is claimed to lack.

If he wins, and Rayner gets the deputy gig, I’ll be sufficiently optimistic to hope for an electable future for the Party. And I absolutely agree with those who believe that Milne and the Murrays et al need replacing.

It's a fairly long tram ride from Media City to Oldham so wondering how much of that interview is Jen Williams being really perceptive and how much of it is drawn from off the record. Was reassured by a few things in it myself but want to hear more from him. Can place Phillips - know where she's coming from. Same with Nandy. Still not fully certain with Starmer. Agree with you about him having qualities which would seem to be very useful for a new Labour leader, although I have doubts about anyone's ability to avoid some necessary divisions being fully opened up with all the squealing and nastiness which will follow. It's the leadership through and out the other side which would seem to matter.

[Robinred]

It's a fairly long tram ride from Media City to Oldham so wondering how much of that interview is Jen Williams being really perceptive and how much of it is drawn from off the record. Was reassured by a few things in it myself but want to hear more from him. Can place Phillips - know where she's coming from. Same with Nandy. Still not fully certain with Starmer. Agree with you about him having qualities which would seem to be very useful for a new Labour leader, although I have doubts about anyone's ability to avoid some necessary divisions being fully opened up with all the squealing and nastiness which will follow. It's the leadership through and out the other side which would seem to matter.

Your continuing wish to “hear more from him” which you’ve expressed more than once, maybe should be viewed in light of accepting and understanding how carefully he has to tread if he isn’t to alienate Corbynistas who’s votes he’s reliant on. Phillips doesn’t have that issue since her position on the whole project was spelt out long ago.

My hope and gut feeling, is that he’ll be comfortable accommodating some of Corbyn’s acolytes, but that he will make sweeping changes to the leadership backroom staff, and welcome back to the opposition front bench the likes of Benn and Cooper.

[Zeb]

Your continuing wish to “hear more from him” which you’ve expressed more than once, maybe should be viewed in light of accepting and understanding how carefully he has to tread if he isn’t to alienate Corbynistas who’s votes he’s reliant on. Phillips doesn’t have that issue since her position on the whole project was spelt out long ago.

My hope and gut feeling, is that he’ll be comfortable accommodating some of Corbyn’s acolytes, but that he will make sweeping changes to the leadership backroom staff, and welcome back to the opposition front bench the likes of Benn and Cooper.

Yeah, I think I've said it twice now. It's more about him getting away from platitudes rather than alienating chunks of the party membership. There's a random 'vaguely lefty' phrase generator doing overtime with a couple of the candidates.

[TepidT2O]

Been impressed more and more by Raynor and Nandy. Still, Starmer is the best candidate but both Raynor and Nandy have a possible future leadership stint in them.

Long-Bailey continues to be utter, utter dog shit.

Starmer has impressed me by exuding ‘leadership’ since standing
I do worry that this ‘democratising’ it the Labour Party has been as a response to an utter leadership vacuum that we’ve had for four years.

The deputy leader list worries me.  Now Burgeon has squeaked in, I worry he may get elected.  Distressing at any point, but more distressing when the other four candidates are women and each is immeasurably more talented than the walking disaster area that is burgeon.

[Robinred]

Yeah, I think I've said it twice now. It's more about him getting away from platitudes rather than alienating chunks of the party membership. There's a random 'vaguely lefty' phrase generator doing overtime with a couple of the candidates.

Indeed.

I heard Ash Sarkhar on Any Questions the other day. She joined the Labour Party last week, even though she’s an unashamed Communist. Assuming Starmer is elected leader, I should expect him to have a quite radical agenda far further to the left than some might realise.

However, I should also expect him to make a clear and unequivocal distinction between well meaning members, and colleagues in the PLP who embraced Corbyn’s project enthusiastically, and communist infiltrators who view the Labour Party as the spoils of their entryism.

[Red-Soldier]

Starmer has impressed me by exuding ‘leadership’ since standing
I do worry that this ‘democratising’ it the Labour Party has been as a response to an utter leadership vacuum that we’ve had for four years.

The deputy leader list worries me.  Now Burgeon has squeaked in, I worry he may get elected.  Distressing at any point, but more distressing when the other four candidates are women and each is immeasurably more talented than the walking disaster area that is burgeon.

I am guessing Burgeon will be the Momentum candidate, just like RBL, but I don't think he'll be very popular with the majority of other members.

Raynor will get a lot of the "left" vote I would think though, and she's way out infront with the MPs.

Starmer is just in another stratosphere compared to all the others.

I am not worried about the Corbyn cabal anymore, the election result was the death knell of their reign.  It is just a matter of how long it'll take to kick Milne and Murphy out, and bring all MPs/members onto the same page.

[TepidT2O]

I am guessing Burgeon will be the Momentum candidate, just like RBL, but I don't think he'll be very popular with the majority of other members.

Raynor will get a lot of the "left" vote I would think.

Starmer is just in another stratosphere compared to all the others.

How many of the people voting are momentum? I’m assuming quite a lot.

Raynor is quite left wing, but she should win because she’s good at politics.  It’s really odd that some momentum types have turned against her, she seems to be pretty much on the same page as them.

[Mutton Geoff]

No. He's saying that people dont give a shit about where someone is from and grown up when it comes to voting. Not like you to miss the point and twist things Geoff

Really however that person i replied to had a narrative for the last few years of pointing out where Corbyn was educated and grew up so guess he must have had a damascus moment then, not like you to pick the wrong target fella.

Personally i have never given a shit about all of that, maybe some are recent converts.

[Red-Soldier]

How many of the people voting are momentum? I’m assuming quite a lot.

Raynor is quite left wing, but she should win because she’s good at politics.  It’s really odd that some momentum types have turned against her, she seems to be pretty much on the same page as them.

I think I read that they have around 60,000 members, so just over 10 percent of the whole Labour membership.  Not a huge proportion.

It's interesting that there is no mention of the 2019 GE on their website whatsoever.

Starmer and Raynor are way out infront as favourites.  Not sure who I am voting for for the DL, I like Khan, but Raynor is fine too.

[TepidT2O]

Indeed.

I heard Ash Sarkhar on Any Questions the other day. She joined the Labour Party last week, even though she’s an unashamed Communist. Assuming Starmer is elected leader, I should expect him to have a quite radical agenda far further to the left than some might realise.

However, I should also expect him to make a clear and unequivocal distinction between well meaning members, and colleagues in the PLP who embraced Corbyn’s project enthusiastically, and communist infiltrators who view the Labour Party as the spoils of their entryism.

I agree with this.  I think some have him down as being towards the right of the Labour Party.  And he just isn’t.

What he is, is a leader, he communicates well and he isn’t a car crash of epic proportions.

Which pretty much satisfies my main requirements. I might not agree with some his more left wing policies, but if you’re actually electable then these become areas for discussion rather than electoral suicide.

If he were to win, his most important (and interesting) appointment will be his shadow chancellor.  They will be in effect deputy leader of the PLP. Who does he go for??  Yvette Cooper would probably be the best choice as an extremely able candidate, but how would the Labour Party members respond?  The same with Hilary Benn, he’s a superb communicator who the general public listen too, it would be difficult to ignore his talents.  But again, would the party members accept this?

[Mutton Geoff]

Your continuing wish to “hear more from him” which you’ve expressed more than once, maybe should be viewed in light of accepting and understanding how carefully he has to tread if he isn’t to alienate Corbynistas who’s votes he’s reliant on. Phillips doesn’t have that issue since her position on the whole project was spelt out long ago.

My hope and gut feeling, is that he’ll be comfortable accommodating some of Corbyn’s acolytes, but that he will make sweeping changes to the leadership backroom staff, and welcome back to the opposition front bench the likes of Benn and Cooper.

Not picking on you especially but can you quantify or others what a Corbynista is ?

I am intrigued by the use of the word for Labour members who might have voted for Corbyn in a leadership race.
 
Do you or others think they are all the same?

I would imagine for some i would qualify which is quite laughable really.

[Zeb]

Indeed.

I heard Ash Sarkhar on Any Questions the other day. She joined the Labour Party last week, even though she’s an unashamed Communist. Assuming Starmer is elected leader, I should expect him to have a quite radical agenda far further to the left than some might realise.

However, I should also expect him to make a clear and unequivocal distinction between well meaning members, and colleagues in the PLP who embraced Corbyn’s project enthusiastically, and communist infiltrators who view the Labour Party as the spoils of their entryism.

Division ahead I think is unavoidable is already there with all leadership candidates as they've rushed to try and get ahead of the EHRC report landing. It's scale of the action as they remove the conspiracist cranks and disown the grifters which is up for question, or at least so far as it'll be in their control, isn't it? Well, that and how any party wide anti-racism training is then done.

Thing with me wanting Starmer to get away from the script a bit more, as he does to some extent in that interview, is that it's totally daft to eg expect the manifesto of 2024/5 to be set out now so I'd rather have a bit of insight into the natural political inclinations of a potential leader than have to guess at them. In Starmer's case, I think it's doing him a disservice if that interview is a sample of how he thinks away from his talking points. Will be fascinated by what comes out of a similar Long Bailey interview to compare it against.

[Red-Soldier]

Long-Bailey told Karie Murphy to do one in regards to her leadership campaign.  She's clearly not that stupid.

[Robinred]

Not picking on you especially but can you quantify or others what a Corbynista is ?

I am intrigued by the use of the word for Labour members who might have voted for Corbyn in a leadership race.
 
Do you or others think they are all the same?

I would imagine for some i would qualify which is quite laughable really.

Agree Geoff, it’s an imprecise term.

I simply meant the type of Labour activist who wished the Party to deselect any sitting M.P suspected or accused of being a Blairite or “red Tory” (to use their vernacular) and who would view with suspicion anyone claiming to be a socialist, who didn’t fully buy into the whole cult thing. I never viewed you as either a Corbynista, nor a member of a cult btw, though as you’ve addressed your question to me personally, I have to say I found some of your posts over the past year or so on this particular topic too personalised, and given your tendency to accuse others of that, somewhat self righteous.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Absolutely beggars belief there are 22 elected MPs who think Richard Burgon is worthwhile having in a Deputy Leader election.

they need a really thick white man for diversity purposes

[Zeb]

I think I read that they have around 60,000 members, so just over 10 percent of the whole Labour membership.  Not a huge proportion.

Last estimated figures from Tim Bale, think you know his work on party memberships, were c.40k Momentum members while Alice Perry said the NEC were told that the Labour Party was at 550k+ members last week. Tim Bale has often said there are twice as many members of the National Trust as Momentum members in the Labour Party. Of course, numbers aren't the full story.

[Mutton Geoff]

Agree Geoff, it’s an imprecise term.

I simply meant the type of Labour activist who wished the Party to deselect any sitting M.P suspected or accused of being a Blairite or “red Tory” (to use their vernacular) and who would view with suspicion anyone claiming to be a socialist, who didn’t fully buy into the whole cult thing. I never viewed you as either a Corbynista, nor a member of a cult btw, though as you’ve addressed your question to me personally, I have to say I found some of your posts over the past year or so on this particular topic too personalised, and given your tendency to accuse others of that, somewhat self righteous.

no offence meant and i thought i explained but obviously not well enough , i used your post as a platform for a question directed at quite a few certainly not just you

[redmark]

no offence meant and i thought i explained but obviously not well enough , i used your post as a platform for a question directed at quite a few certainly not just you

I think Corbynistas is most generally used about vocal Corbyn outriders on twitter, not just any member who voted for him.

[redmark]

Of course, numbers aren't the full story.

Yeah, some tens of thousands others will vote as recommended by Momentum, as evidenced by Momentum slates in recent NEC elections.

[Mutton Geoff]

I think Corbynistas is most generally used about vocal Corbyn outriders on twitter, not just any member who voted for him.

so do we believe that people on Twitter are exactly what they claim they are, unless you know the person i dont trust anyone on twitter