Topic: How HS2 will tear up rural England

[Red-Soldier]

The costs?  Who knows.... I’m no expert on that...

On the environmental issues it’s an absolute no brainier.

I agree.

I sit alongside my fellow colleagues at the Wildlife Trusts on this.

[nayia2002]

Why?

The country is crippled by lack of capacity on main rail routes...

We need more capacity.

How else do we get it?

As the article says this is years behind schedule and spiralling out of cost which is currently 100 billion  and will probably cost 150+ billion in my opinion by the time it reaches the northwest and northeast in 20 -25years time!!
If it does go ahead it will save commuters 20-25 minutes journey time from Birmingham to London in 2026(original due date) which is pointless.
Another thing I think will happen the fares will will be unaffordable for some folk!
That is fucking bizarre whichever way you look at it!

[OneTouchFooty]

As the article says this is years behind schedule and spiralling out of cost which is currently 100 billion  and will probably cost 150+ billion in my opinion by the time it reaches the northwest and northeast in 20 -25years time!!
If it does go ahead it will save commuters 20-25 minutes journey time from Birmingham to London in 2026(original due date) which is pointless.
Another thing I think will happen the fares will will be unaffordable for some folk!
That is fucking bizarre whichever way you look at it!

It's not about the saving 20 minutes on a journey, it's a about freeing up capacity on an already over-crowded main line, which is why the fares are constantly going up now, because of the ridiculous demand for tickets.

But I suppose we can scrap it, relying on crumbling rolling stock and continue to fall behind the developed world with our sub-standard rail services.

[wampa1]

You don’t want to reduce rail, you want to increase it and reduce car travel.

[rebel23]

There is no way HS2 will be built. 100 billion to save 20 mins off a journey.  I can't imagine them doing it but governments do stupid things.

Also in a few years there will be hypersonic trains so HS2 will be outdated. They should wait for hypersonic and do that it would mean crazy shit like 15 mins to London. Now that is something worth investing in.

[TepidT2O]

As the article says this is years behind schedule and spiralling out of cost which is currently 100 billion  and will probably cost 150+ billion in my opinion by the time it reaches the northwest and northeast in 20 -25years time!!
If it does go ahead it will save commuters 20-25 minutes journey time from Birmingham to London in 2026(original due date) which is pointless.
Another thing I think will happen the fares will will be unaffordable for some folk!
That is fucking bizarre whichever way you look at it!

I have no idea what reasonable costs are for a rail network, I can’t argue either way on that.


But this isn’t about speed. It’s about capacity. Currently slow goods trains are sharing the same rail lines as faster passenger trains.

This causes big issues for both. The network is ancient and at capacity, that’s the reason for HS2.  It should help trade and industry across the length of it.

Speed is a total red herring here, it’s not the primary reason for it.

[rebel23]

Dont  they have 'bullet ' trains in Japan? We should ask them to build it. Our record on infrastructure projects is shocking. Always way over budget in the case of HS2 its already over double the original estimate at 100 billion.

[reddebs]

Dont  they have 'bullet ' trains in Japan? We should ask them to build it. Our record on infrastructure projects is shocking. Always way over budget in the case of HS2 its already over double the original estimate at 100 billion.

Aren't their rails on stilts though? 

No idea if that would be cheaper or quicker to build or less destructive to the environment but I know I'd rather they didn't carve up acres of green space just so a few people can get to the capital a few minutes quicker than now.

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[Gerry Attrick]

The train infrastructure in this country is absolutely lousy. At some point something will have to be done, whether it be HS2 or something else. Any government can't keep sitting on their hands. That means some people will get upset when some trees are chopped down.

[TepidT2O]

Aren't their rails on stilts though? 

No idea if that would be cheaper or quicker to build or less destructive to the environment but I know I'd rather they didn't carve up acres of green space just so a few people can get to the capital a few minutes quicker than now.

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Again

This isn’t about getting to and from the capital a bit quicker.

It’s about increasing capacity in the network.  Everyone moans about over crowded trains etc...  the maxed out capacity is one of the key reason’s why.

Now, people may think that we shouldn’t be increasing capacity on the network, but that’s an entirely different argument

The train infrastructure in this country is absolutely lousy. At some point something will have to be done, whether it be HS2 or something else. Any government can't keep sitting on their hands. That means some people will get upset when some trees are chopped down.

Well quite.  I’ve no idea if the cost is reasonable or if it’s well or badly run... but the point still stands.  People complain to high heaven about the trains... but complain about the solution

[reddebs]

Again

This isn’t about getting to and from the capital a bit quicker.

It’s about increasing capacity in the network.  Everyone moans about over crowded trains etc...  the maxed out capacity is one of the key reason’s why.

Now, people may think that we shouldn’t be increasing capacity on the network, but that’s an entirely different argument

In what way does it do that mate?

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[TepidT2O]

In what way does it do that mate?

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At the moment, local sprinter trains, heavy haulage and express trains are all using the main routes on the network.

Rail travel has increased hugely in the last 25 years and they simply get in the way of each other.  Haulage keeps getting pulled over for express trains, they get delayed for haulage and there’s no more capacity to add anything else. 

And rail is the greenest way to travel on top of that...

[Elmo!]

In what way does it do that mate?

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The amount of trains that can go on the line is limited because you have fast(ish) intercity trains, slow commuter trains and very slow freight trains all using the same line. Trains have to stop to allow trains past, or run slower than they are capable of because there is a slower train ahead etc. HS2 would move the fast intercity trains off those lines, allowing extra trains to be able to run on both.

EDIT: Tepid beat me to it.

[reddebs]

But what's the difference between more trains and more carriages on the existing trains?

I've not looked at figures but how many cars will each train take off the roads for carbon emissions purposes?

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[TepidT2O]

But what's the difference between more trains and more carriages on the existing trains?

I've not looked at figures but how many cars will each train take off the roads for carbon emissions purposes?

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Don’t know about the carbon emissions...  but I would guess it will have an effect on people flying rather than going on the train as much as cars..

Longer carriages still require station rebuilds as they will be too long for the platforms... and you still have the huge congestion problems on the lines...

[Red-Soldier]

I have no idea what reasonable costs are for a rail network,

Don’t know about the carbon emissions...  but I would guess

For someone who doesn't know a great deal, you seem to be quite confident on the benefits of the project.

[reddebs]

Don’t know about the carbon emissions...  but I would guess it will have an effect on people flying rather than going on the train as much as cars..

Longer carriages still require station rebuilds as they will be too long for the platforms... and you still have the huge congestion problems on the lines...

So use the money to improve existing stations then add more carriages to existing trains.

Either way unless the hs2 is cheap as chips and/or flights are taxed to high heaven people who fly now will still fly.

At the end of the day it's a hell of a lot of money to spend to benefit so few from one part of the country, when the same money could be spent improving the whole of the existing system and benefitting loads more.

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[TepidT2O]

For someone who doesn't know a great deal, you seem to be quite confident on the benefits of the project.

Yes I am.  Because people are totally misrepresenting them.

Whether it’s worth the cost is a different matter.  I don’t have numbers on carbon emissions, but rail is miles ahead of road transport.

[TepidT2O]

So use the money to improve existing stations then add more carriages to existing trains.

Either way unless the hs2 is cheap as chips and/or flights are taxed to high heaven people who fly now will still fly.

At the end of the day it's a hell of a lot of money to spend to benefit so few from one part of the country

As far as I know they’ve pretty much done what they can with extending platforms etc...

Whilst it’s a lot of money, borrowing at all time low interest rates for infrastructure is supposed to be the way to go.  The money would largely get pumped back into the countries economy too.

The biggest issues for me are whether that’s a good price for what you’re getting?  And will it bring more work etc to the midlands or the north or will it just funnel more to London more easily...

[rebel23]

We need to get Elon Musk to work on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

Its being deployed in India and will cut a 180min journey to 20 min!

HS2 is already outdated...

[TepidT2O]

We need to get Elon Musk to work on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

Its being deployed in India and will cut a 180min journey to 20 min!

HS2 is already outdated...

Hang on a second...

To pump out the air to form a near vacuum will take a huge amount of energy..... the advantage of reduced air resistance may well be countered by the energy costs of this.

And you think over ground is expensive?  Try tunnels for that distance.....huuuuge

[rebel23]

Hang on a second...

To pump out the air to form a bear vacuum will take a huge amount of energy..... the advantage of reduced air resistance may well be countered by the energy costs of this.

And you think over ground is expensive?  Try tunnels for that distance.....huuuuge

I'm not an engineer

Virgin are also doing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcikLQZI5wQ

Imagine Liverpool to London in 20 mins. That's a game changer. That's what we should be investing in.

[TepidT2O]

I'm not an engineer

Virgin are also doing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcikLQZI5wQ

Imagine Liverpool to London in 20 mins. That's a game changer. That's what we should be investing in.

It’s not going to happen...  speed is secondary, capacity is key.  And hyper loop?  We’d be lucky to see anything in our lifetimes...
Seems like more monorail nonsense

[Elmo!]

I support the idea of improving rail infrastructure but my concern is they will go ahead with the London to Birmingham part, it will be way over budget so the rest of it will be postponed. Meanwhile London will keep growing, and before we get round to building the rest of HS2/3/4 etc, the next big transport project for London will take priority because of the ever increasing demand there.

They should start with the Birmingham to Manchester to Leeds part, and then maybe onto Edinburgh or Glasgow before bothering with London. Make it more appealing for people and businesses to move north.

[TepidT2O]

I support the idea of improving rail infrastructure but my concern is they will go ahead with the London to Birmingham part, it will be way over budget so the rest of it will be postponed. Meanwhile London will keep growing, and before we get round to building the rest of HS2/3/4 etc, the next big transport project for London will take priority because of the ever increasing demand there.

They should start with the Birmingham to Manchester to Leeds part, and then maybe onto Edinburgh or Glasgow before bothering with London. Make it more appealing for people and businesses to move north.

Totally agree with you on this...

[BarryCrocker]

Doesn't speed impact capacity? If you can get 3 trains to cover the distance that one train travels you more capacity?

[reddebs]

As far as I know they’ve pretty much done what they can with extending platforms etc...

Whilst it’s a lot of money, borrowing at all time low interest rates for infrastructure is supposed to be the way to go.  The money would largely get pumped back into the countries economy too.

The biggest issues for me are whether that’s a good price for what you’re getting?  And will it bring more work etc to the midlands or the north or will it just funnel more to London more easily...

To me the vast majority of extra capacity is needed on the commuter trains.  Those that are used every day and whose users complain about lateness, unreliability and overcrowding rather than the occasional long distance traveller.

If they cant improve stations or extend platforms for more carriages then put on more trains at peak times.  Use intercity ones off peak and freight during the night only.

I just don't see how this is the best use of the huge amount of public money and there will be far more people suffer than will benefit from it.

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[Elmo!]

To me the vast majority of extra capacity is needed on the commuter trains.  Those that are used every day and whose users complain about lateness, unreliability and overcrowding rather than the occasional long distance traveller.

If they cant improve stations or extend platforms for more carriages then put on more trains at peak times.  Use intercity ones off peak and freight during the night only.

I just don't see how this is the best use of the huge amount of public money and there will be far more people suffer than will benefit from it.

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That's the point, they can't put on more commuter trains, because their is no capacity. Building HS2 will free up capacity on the old lines to run commuter trains.

And only running intercity trains off peak is not an option. Do ou think no one needs to get the train between major cities in the mornings?

[SP]

You don’t want to reduce rail, you want to increase it and reduce car travel.

Rail has increased year on year for 25 years.  This is a good thing for us all.

Apart from the poor buggers that use the current overcrowded unreliable lines into Euston.

[SP]

At the moment, local sprinter trains, heavy haulage and express trains are all using the main routes on the network.

Rail travel has increased hugely in the last 25 years and they simply get in the way of each other.  Haulage keeps getting pulled over for express trains, they get delayed for haulage and there’s no more capacity to add anything else. 

And rail is the greenest way to travel on top of that...

My morning train into Euston is always late. It has never arrived at the scheduled time. Often a freight train chugs through minutes before - delaying the train further. London Northwestern cancelled the season ticket fair increases because their service was so shite.

[SP]

But what's the difference between more trains and more carriages on the existing trains?

I've not looked at figures but how many cars will each train take off the roads for carbon emissions purposes?

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They are already running 12 carriage trains. But for many stations huge trains at service intervals of 1 or 2 per hour drives people off the trains. There is no pain quite like a 12 car service being replaced with a 4 car one - and over an hour wait for the next train...  You have to sweet talk the staff to find your train before they are announced to even stand a chance...

[reddebs]

I still don't understand how or who hs2 helps though.

What passengers will use them out of the existing users?



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[killer-heels]

I still don't understand how or who hs2 helps though.

What passengers will use them out of the existing users?



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Again it depends on price, but people travel to the Midlands, North West, London dont they?

[cdav]

Apart from the poor buggers that use the current overcrowded unreliable lines into Euston.

I've no idea why HS2 needs to go into Euston- presumably this is where a lot of the cost is? Crossrail will be open soon (ish) so would it not have made more sense to put Heathrow as the destination?

Could have removed the need for some internal connecting flights, and if you need to go onto central London jump on crossrail

[reddebs]

Again it depends on price, but people travel to the Midlands, North West, London dont they?

What I meant was who travels those distances regularly as in 2 or 3 times per week that will move off intercity trains and free up capacity?

Surely not £20 billions worth.

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[rebel23]

So the government are suggesting they're going to go ahead with it. fucking hell, 100 billion plus more probably.

Can build a lot of hospitals with that... or schools or fix the fucking roads! This is an outrage. 

[BarryCrocker]

So the government are suggesting they're going to go ahead with it. fucking hell, 100 billion plus more probably.

Can build a lot of hospitals with that... or schools or fix the fucking roads! This is an outrage. 

It won't be 100b, it will be more. The Australian government decided to build a National Broadband Network using cable to a node. It was estimated to cost about 29.5b and will eventually cost 51b. In the ensuing 7 years 5G has come along and will blow it away for speeds and is totally mobile.

[OneTouchFooty]

Brexit has already cost the economy nearly double what HS2 is likely to cost.

Thats the problem with this country sometimes, we complain about our shitty infrastructure but when it comes to improving it we end up pissing and moaning about it being too expensive.

[TepidT2O]

Brexit has already cost the economy nearly double what HS2 is likely to cost.

Thats the problem with this country sometimes, we complain about our shitty infrastructure but when it comes to improving it we end up pissing and moaning about it being too expensive.

I agree.

That being said, I have no idea if the money is reasonable or daylight robbery.

[rebel23]

I agree.

That being said, I have no idea if the money is reasonable or daylight robbery.

Taxpayers should not be on the hook for hundreds of billions of this vanity rail project.  Not when we have roads in disrepair, over crowded schools and need more hospitals.  There are several other priorities and diverting 100 billion pounds of public money to build this nonsense that most people won't even use is ridiculous.