Topic: Thread Derailing, Persistent Negativity and Agenda Driven Spin

[CraigDS]

Opening post quite clearly says that pisstaking is unacceptable.

No it says when debating not to criticise or pisstake - this means not to personal attack basically.

[JohnHobbes]

No, I suggest you go and read a broadsheet rather than come on a public football fan forum. You don't willingly walk into a lion's den and then moan about the lions.

No, I just don't want to have to try and parse through any thread where persons A and B are attacking FSG every single post and C and D are countering those posts. Then E turns up and says, 'You naughty people attacking poor old A for having his convictions'. It gets tiresome very quickly. Doesn't mean I don't want to read what other people are saying in other threads, so will stick with here rather than the paper thanks for the advice though.

That's what this thread is about, the persistent fighting between two camps which goes nowhere and not a moderation switch in totality regarding what people can post. You seem to think it's an attack on people's posting rights when it's nothing of the sort.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

No it says when debating not to criticise or pisstake - this means not to personal attack basically.

Indeed, take the ball not the man.  Discuss the point not the poster.

Pisstaking has its place, but that is usually not in a heated argument about the owners where it is more likely to be inflammatory rather than add levity. 

[Eeyore]

No, I just don't want to have to try and parse through any thread where persons A and B are attacking FSG every single post and C and D are countering those posts. Then E turns up and says, 'You naughty people attacking poor old A for having his convictions'. It gets tiresome very quickly. Doesn't mean I don't want to read what other people are saying in other threads, so will stick with here rather than the paper thanks for the advice though.

That's what this thread is about, the persistent fighting between two camps which goes nowhere and not a moderation switch in totality regarding what people can post. You seem to think it's an attack on people's posting rights when it's nothing of the sort.

The biggest problem for me is people on both sides passing off myths as fact, maybe the answer is to actually establish the facts once and for all and include them in the posting guidelines. There is a lot in the public domain and if that was established then we wouldn't have so many pointless arguments.

[Red Ant]

As someone that reads a hell of a lot more then posts I feel I can have a more outside opinion then most on here as to the problems.

I think this thread and the warning it carries is an excellent idea, I have witnessed the endless drivel time and time again and although you don't know me really I know all of you and certainly those who this thread is aimed at.

This is by far the best L.F.C forum on the net and although some great posters have stopped posting there are countless that still remain, I can brisk read through a days worth of debate after work on numourous subjects and have learned to skip over the crap and take in all that I want to.

As for the moderating, some people need to understand this is a massive,fast-moving forum that can't be dealt with on a constant basis but they manage to do it brilliantly (and for free). Sometimes we have all had a bad day can't be bothered with things, people need to realise that maybe when threads get locked its not the fault of the mod that turns the key but as a result of those who caused this to be the easiest option to deal with it.

Surely self moderation is as important to keeping this forum as good as it is. Just engage the brain before you take the bait and the treads will stay open.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Where on Earth have any of us said you can't take the piss out of each other? I'd ban myself if that were the case. How weird.

The OP (See above) "But one thing we won't tolerate is pisstaking"

[The 5th Benitle]

The OP (See above) "But one thing we won't tolerate is pisstaking"

And likewise - see above. You're reading that selectively.

[CraigDS]

The biggest problem for me is people on both sides passing off myths as fact, maybe the answer is to actually establish the facts once and for all and include them in the posting guidelines. There is a lot in the public domain and if that was established then we wouldn't have so many pointless arguments.

The problem is there aren't that many ACTUAL facts out there, which is why the debates happen most of the time as, for example, you could post something you think is fact, where as me for example won't think it is and the debate will start.

You'd only end up with people debating if the 'facts' are actually facts!

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The OP (See above) "But one thing we won't tolerate is pisstaking"

Andy the day when I can no longer take the piss out of you on here is the day I delete my login

[yes]

No it says when debating not to criticise or pisstake - this means not to personal attack basically.

I say that the OP says pisstaking is unacceptable, you confirm it and I'm still wrong? How does that work?!

[Higgins79]

Any effort to 'clean' up and improve the quality of debate is very much appreciated.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The problem is there aren't that many ACTUAL facts out there, which is why the debates happen most of the time as, for example, you could post something you think is fact, where as me for example won't think it is and the debate will start.

You'd only end up with people debating if the 'facts' are actually facts!

The only facts are the ones written down on Rafa's notepad.

[The 5th Benitle]

I say that the OP says pisstaking is unacceptable, you confirm it and I'm still wrong? How does that work?!

Maybe that sentence could be worded better but it doesn't mean no piss taking in the having a laugh way, we all enjoy humour it's more about piss taking in the abuse way

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Andy the day when I can no longer take the piss out of you on here is the day I delete my login

The day I come on here without blerts crying about my posts is the day I stop posting

[CraigDS]

I say that the OP says pisstaking is unacceptable, you confirm it and I'm still wrong? How does that work?!

Because you are taking it as it says at any time, and use the threads in the transfer forum as an example. Where as it means not attacking people directly through taking the piss.

It's not that hard to understand.

[Pheeny]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

[JohnHobbes]

The biggest problem for me is people on both sides passing off myths as fact, maybe the answer is to actually establish the facts once and for all and include them in the posting guidelines. There is a lot in the public domain and if that was established then we wouldn't have so many pointless arguments.

Sounds fine to me, as long as those facts can be agreed upon* and then kept prominently for all to see then a single thread where such things can be discussed ad infiniteum would be worth a shot.

*the problem would probably be on providing sources to prove one's fact and agreeing what is true or not. It might have to be persuade a mod of your arguments to have it added to the OP.

[yes]

No, I just don't want to have to try and parse through any thread where persons A and B are attacking FSG every single post and C and D are countering those posts. Then E turns up and says, 'You naughty people attacking poor old A for having his convictions'. It gets tiresome very quickly. Doesn't mean I don't want to read what other people are saying in other threads, so will stick with here rather than the paper thanks for the advice though.

That's what this thread is about, the persistent fighting between two camps which goes nowhere and not a moderation switch in totality regarding what people can post. You seem to think it's an attack on people's posting rights when it's nothing of the sort.

I don't think it's an attack on people's rights to post at all and I've never said that. Your above argument is completely unrelated to my point.

What I've said is that you can't change the nature of the beast, good or bad. It's not defeatist and it's not like trying to topple capitalism, it's just accepting that that is how people are.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

We're all hanging on for the 2013 RAWKFactor

[CraigDS]

I don't think it's an attack on people's rights to post at all and I've never said that. Your above argument is completely unrelated to my point.

What I've said is that you can't change the nature of the beast, good or bad. It's not defeatist and it's not like trying to topple capitalism, it's just accepting that that is how people are.

They don't want to change how people are, they just don't want them to be what they are in every sodding thread. Which is what has been happening.

[stevo7]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

Maybe because people in the real world have fucked them off as bores!

[The 5th Benitle]

Look, the reason we discussed this and then posted it is for one reason only - to improve the site, and to some extent to get it back to what it was. Short of people misunderstanding our intentions, I really can't get my head round why anyone would have an issue with that.
 
People say RAWK is overmoderated - in fact you could argue that it's been undermoderated when it comes to dealing with tedious repetition of well known and entrenched views.
 
This is a good thing!

[Pheeny]

We're all hanging on for the 2013 RAWKFactor

I've heard you were practicing last night...

[The 5th Benitle]

They don't want to change how people are, they just don't want them to be what they are in every sodding thread. Which is what has been happening.

That's exactly right.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

I think the pisstaking is meant in a more sinister way. I have posters rip the piss out of me calling me allsorts of shit, and i love it. Its meant in a good way but when the pisstaking becomes underhand and snidey then its out of order. I suppose its hard for the mods to judge the line sometimes. Ive overstepped the mark many times and have had bans and warnings , and ive been one breath away from a permaban , none of which i would have disagreed with ( well one maybe   ). I think a lot of stuff is left to see how it goes to be honest, maybe ive a more lenient view of the moderating as ive fallen foul of MY OWN actions.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I've heard you were practicing last night...

Yeah - Jon Hall ran off the quilt

[yes]

Maybe because people in the real world have fucked them off as bores!

Personal attack, no?

They don't want to change how people are, they just don't want them to be what they are in every sodding thread. Which is what has been happening.

I'm not sure whether you're fishing but you just seem to disagree with what I say then repeat what I've said as your counter point? "No 2+2 doesn't equal 4 but if you add 2 to 2 then you will get 4".

[JohnHobbes]

Maybe because people in the real world have fucked them off as bores!

I would love to know if people ever say the extreme things, they do on here, in the pub to their mates or not. Being an anonymous poster on the web does encourage people to do and say things I'm sure they never would to their real life friends.

As you say how likely would it have been for someone to have such a circular argument in reality without someone telling them to shut up for boring them, or just walking away. It seems being on here encourages that kind of posting and increase the chances that a similarly strong minded individual will see it and argue back for as long as it takes for them to "win".

[west_london_red]

I'm all for moderation as long as we're all moderated the same and for the benefit of the forum.

There's an 'old pals act' element to this place. Some posters get more leniency that others. Say they dont, but its a lie.

Have to agree with that and glad its not just me who thinks it goes on but some of the older posters on here get away with things that some of us others wont.

[Mutton Geoff]

 a couple of ideas could be as I said in the fog of last night, have a specific thread in Opinion something like FSG and all that where people can discuss about the Owners and CEO and the structure of the club off the pitch. This for me will lead to people who actually want to discuss this when you take it of the front page. Make it known to all that all things off pitch need to be in this thread.

We need to take the element of who posted it rather than what they post out, i have been as guilty as anyone but i finished one circular discussion with for example with Rednich by saying in the end if we met up in a pub i would buy him a pint, and he returned this offer.  The point being we might have had opposing views but it should never be personal and at times it is with everyone in here including me.

If forums are replacing the pub but massively bigger this is more like the old days used to have a few arguments which ended with having a pint and moving on.

 I have also had some epic discussions with Craig but within it we managed the odd in joke and a decent amount of humour seldom personal just different viewpoints  and at times my paranoia.

Too often lines are drawn in the sand !

We need perhaps more tolerance and less I am right from all including me, less targeting of players, manager etc, and i dont think anyone but an obvious troll is the enemy in here.

We all want the club to succeed its how we think we should do this that is the sticking point.

[Wingman]

The biggest problem for me is people on both sides passing off myths as fact, maybe the answer is to actually establish the facts once and for all and include them in the posting guidelines. There is a lot in the public domain and if that was established then we wouldn't have so many pointless arguments.

They're not always black and white, these facts, though are they?

Interpretation, knowledge and amateur accounting all mean these "facts" end up being part of the on-going, and quite frankly, fucking tiresome debate in every thread

[Malaysian Kopite]

Good.

[Fordy]

The day I come on here without blerts crying about my posts is the day I stop posting

That's never going to happen if you keep on slagging off one of the best players ever to wear the Liverpool shirt. Agenda driven? 

[yes]

Anyway, I didn't come on here to vent my anger or anything like that it was genuinely just to give another possible insight to how the site was going. I probably should have just let things stand with my original post rather than get into these tit for tat posts.

I don't come on here much anyway now for the reasons stated in my original post and was just hoping to impart some constructive feedback to the problems that have been raised.

There's some good guys out there (Mayo) and I hope you get what you're after, even if I don't necessarily think it's possible.

[stewy17]

Surely it can't only be me who finds great amusement in how this thread, which aims to change the trend of posting and circular arguments, is in the midst of a circular argument with the same characters, tone and tedium?

... too many idiots have broadband.

The top and bottom of it.

[Fordy]

I'm all for moderation as long as we're all moderated the same and for the benefit of the forum.

There's an 'old pals act' element to this place. Some posters get more leniency that others. Say they dont, but its a lie.

This. Totally agree with this.

If the mods find consistentency the fine but it does seem that others get away with things cause they're better at posting etc. It's like the mods have a list of good and bad list and that's wrong for me.

It should be a level playing field.

[L666KOP]

The only problem with pisstaking/banter on this forum is that we have posters from all corners of the world.

One man's banter may be construed as another man's personal attack. It's a fine line to judge it. Minor point I know, but if people made more/better use of the emoticons threads would be easier to moderate, and posters, and mods alike would perhaps better be able to judge a cutting one liner designed to raise a chuckle, rather than a snide underhand personal attack.
I'm as bad as anyone, a joke as opposed to a personal attack has led to me being watched, no great deal, but as a mod it was difficult to judge my offending post I presume. The mods don't know us all personally, so take us at face value.
The thing is, I know I mean't no harm, and as a result the 'warning' doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a forum, people need to lighten up a bit, if someone tries to shout you down just walk away, it's easy. Most posters know who the offending people are anyway.

[Wingman]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

Beat me to it, it's not as if there aren't plenty of other sites to chat shit in

[Mutton Geoff]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

Cuzz we love your diplomatic skill Tony

Look, the reason we discussed this and then posted it is for one reason only - to improve the site, and to some extent to get it back to what it was. Short of people misunderstanding our intentions, I really can't get my head round why anyone would have an issue with that.
 
People say RAWK is overmoderated - in fact you could argue that it's been undermoderated when it comes to dealing with tedious repetition of well known and entrenched views.
 
This is a good thing!

This is true try the two other biggest forum sites including the official one and compare and you will might be surprised.

[JerseyKloppite]

I sometimes wonder why some of you are still here if you hate the way we run the site so much.

I was thinking that.

I don't really understand why some posters think this is a bad idea. The point seems to be to improve debate and free up threads by stopping trolls from ruining them. Those with a bit of an agenda have decided to take it to be 'the Mods are the Stasi, there's no freedom of speech, you want to close threads down.'

If you really don't like it, why don't you just leave?

A number of people have seen this thread and commented that on reflection it probably applies to them, and that they will try to grind their respective axes less / in more appropriate places. That can only be a good thing.