Topic: Plan B or C ?

[Joe_Singh]

I thought benayoun was brilliant, and has been for so many games.

I think if we have a situation on our hands again whereby an essian man marks Gerrard I would say pull him out to the right and get yossi in there.

I also think we should be looking for another off the front player in the summer who eclipses Benayoun and Gerrard. Someone who has been playing that role for years.

[Soldier of Solidarity]

So, Gerrard has missed the last 3 games and we've scored...12 goals. Hmmmmm

[LFCfan4Life]

So, Gerrard has missed the last 3 games and we've scored...12 goals. Hmmmmm

we are shit without him, can't score i tell you

I'm told were a one man team and when we need a goal Stevie G steps up to save us

[lincolnred-dad]

there was something mentioned about 1-2 weeks ago that gerrard and torres have only started about 10 games together.

so with our 'plan a' only starting together about 1/3 of the time, and us showing a vast improvement on previous years, highest scorers in the league, most points gained from loosing positions, still in with a shout of the title even though it's mid/late april, likely to finish top 2 etc, etc.

i'd say that plans b and c have been coping ok and may need just a little tweak in the summer (like messi! )

[mulfella]

Torres was anonymous against Chelsea, and yet we scored four.

[Soldier of Solidarity]

we are shit without him, can't score i tell you

I'm told were a one man team and when we need a goal Stevie G steps up to save us

Tis true, Liverpool without Gerrard, don't score. Tim Sherwood told me.

[Loz81]

Plan B is working superbly well. Kuyt and Yossi, in particular, were excellent last night. Those two seemingly can cover Gerrard's absence.

However, in partial support of the OP, I am less convinced of options when Torres is out or indeed a plan C (if Kuyt/Yossi) were injured too. For example, I don't think our bench last night was particularly chock full of options.

That said, it would not take much for this to be rectified. Perhaps N'Gog will be better next year for a season with some top flight football or Nemeth could stay injury-free and make the step up. Or thirdly, a quality purchase(s) in attacking midfield (particularly left) or withdrawn striker.

But really, if Plan A and B are yielding an avalanche of goals then there is not too much wrong.

[t0m]

i dont no what to say, we dont have any plans apart from hope and pray united drop points and win are next 5 which we WILL!

[sattapaartridge]

B: Yossi
C: Babel

[hesbighesred]

There is no doubt that the Torres/Gerrard partnership is the best, it suits our game and it suits their game.

But if Steve is missing, too many times Torres is out on his own, and if Torres is missing we dont have anyone else.

The reliance on these two and the lack of plan B&C has cost us dearly.

Vehemently disagree with this.

1) WE do have a plan B, C and beyond. There is no team in world football with our tactical flexibility, able to vary between at least 3 distinct playing styles (Direct play, sit-back-and-counter, possession based attack/break down of teams, and plenty of variations on that theme) in 3 distinct formations (4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 3-4-3). Name one other team who has won games this season using 3 different formations, even if you can, I bet that team aren't capable of the range of styles we are.

2) We've scored a lot more goals without G&T than Utd, with a supposedly superior strength in depth PLUS Berbatov, have without Rooney & Ronaldo.

3) Our attack hasn't really been the problem this season, or at least not as much as the difficulty we've had closing out games, and the large number of individual mistakes that have plagued our defence all season, especially in the second half of it.

4) There is no plan B and C to players like Gerrard and Torres. There is no way to have adequate back-up for such players, because players of that quality simply will not sit on the bench. Certainly it would help to have another player close to that standard, with the versatility of Kuyt/Benny or Babel, but this isn't the kind of back up plan you refer to. Benny and Kuyt have actually covered for Gerrard brilliantly, while N'gog (with another year's development) plus Kuyt is good, if not great, back up for Torres.

5) Injury wise, Torres has had an exceptional season, brought on by the exceptional number of games he played last season. It's very unlikely that, with a much less hectic schedule this season and in the summer, he'll be injured that much again. Missing top players is far more of a factor when they are out for a long time, so again I don't really see this as being a weakness next season at all.

Let's concentrate on filling the actual holes in our squad that still, or will exist come summer (EG competition/cover for Arbeloa, very likely replacement for Babel etc) then if money is left for a back-up striker, great, but not at the expense of cutting edge in areas we are a lot weaker, squad wise.

[killer-heels]

Vehemently disagree with this.

Totally agree with hesbighesred.

The fact is that we have shown, like other big teams, that we can win matches without Gerrard and/or Torres.

But the fact of the matter is that every single team anywhere would struggle in certain matches and drop points if they lost their key players for a significant period of times.

Just look at Utd at the start of the season with Ronaldo. Take Messi and Xavi out of Barcelona and you can see them dropping points. Chelsea have done well but would have done better with Essien in the team. These are all clubs that have more resources than us, yet they need their key players just as much as us.

In terms of boosting our options, its easy for people to say we should sign such and such to replace Torres and Gerrard when they are out. Well, we do have them. Yossi Benayoun can do this for us.

You want better than Yossi you say? Well which player can you think of that is better than Yossi but just below Gerrard's ability that would be willing to be a bit part player for the team? No one!

The fact is that all you can do is have as many match winners and top quality players in the first 11 and hope that your squad players can step up and do an adequate job in covering their absence and ensure that the remaining quality players make up for the loss.

Also, people are obsessed with 4-2-3-1.

Recently, someone said that they would prefer Barry to Eto because Barry would ensure that Gerrard ALWAYS plays just off Torres. Well, we have that facility already.

The fact is that we dont always, and will not always play 4-2-3-1. In some matches at home we will, like we have done with Keane, move to a 4-4-2. And rightly so.

[sattapaartridge]

Vehemently disagree with this.

1) WE do have a plan B, C and beyond. There is no team in world football with our tactical flexibility, able to vary between at least 3 distinct playing styles (Direct play, sit-back-and-counter, possession based attack/break down of teams, and plenty of variations on that theme) in 3 distinct formations (4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 3-4-3). Name one other team who has won games this season using 3 different formations, even if you can, I bet that team aren't capable of the range of styles we are.

2) We've scored a lot more goals without G&T than Utd, with a supposedly superior strength in depth PLUS Berbatov, have without Rooney & Ronaldo.

3) Our attack hasn't really been the problem this season, or at least not as much as the difficulty we've had closing out games, and the large number of individual mistakes that have plagued our defence all season, especially in the second half of it.

4) There is no plan B and C to players like Gerrard and Torres. There is no way to have adequate back-up for such players, because players of that quality simply will not sit on the bench. Certainly it would help to have another player close to that standard, with the versatility of Kuyt/Benny or Babel, but this isn't the kind of back up plan you refer to. Benny and Kuyt have actually covered for Gerrard brilliantly, while N'gog (with another year's development) plus Kuyt is good, if not great, back up for Torres.

5) Injury wise, Torres has had an exceptional season, brought on by the exceptional number of games he played last season. It's very unlikely that, with a much less hectic schedule this season and in the summer, he'll be injured that much again. Missing top players is far more of a factor when they are out for a long time, so again I don't really see this as being a weakness next season at all.

Let's concentrate on filling the actual holes in our squad that still, or will exist come summer (EG competition/cover for Arbeloa, very likely replacement for Babel etc) then if money is left for a back-up striker, great, but not at the expense of cutting edge in areas we are a lot weaker, squad wise.

pretty much spot on. too many people on the boards think that "rafa's set in his way" and "where does player X figure in the 4-2-3-1 formation?!?"

i think rafa has learned a method....implementing that method may have been too late this season, but might get it bang on next season.

in rafa we trust!

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

we beat the mancs without torres and gerarrd and we had robbie keane on the pitch.


we dont need a too many more plans
what we do need is a central midfielder to ballance things out a bit and one who can tell the team what tempo etc we should be playing at.

spurs away was ridiculous....knocking on the door so many times yet still taking chances not being solid in midfield ......exactly the same as last night.


alonso and mascher may be very good individuals but you start changing the way we have to play which dont suit them you start to have problems.

imo one will probably go to fund the "next level"

[Snoopy29]

I know this is old  but is this really true...what someone wrote about gerrard having a big ego, the reason why we can't really sign another star striker.. and why the tactics wont matter..

some dizzy pointless gobshite's website/2008/04/why-steven-gerrard-is-reason-liverpool.html

[abhred]

The inability to make a clearance has cost us.

[LFCfan4Life]

The inability to make a clearance has cost us.

exactly plan B should be if under pressure and in doubt blast the fucker out of the ground

[Slave]

In the same vein as the opening post I'd like to add my thoughts.

Does anybody else think that at the moment are defence looks rock solid? There were times last night and over the last couple of months where it looks like we'll never concede. Each and every defender looks incapable of making any mistakes and their concentration levels are superb.

[Guz-kop]

3) Our attack hasn't really been the problem this season, or at least not as much as the difficulty we've had closing out games, and the large number of individual mistakes that have plagued our defence all season, especially in the second half of it.

What, at all this season? Yes our defenders have been making more out-of-character mistakes this season but if we lose out on the title by a few points it'll be the home draws that has cost us. And apart from the spirit shown against Hull for the 2-2 and a period of play against West Ham those draws at home have been drab, tepid affairs with us struggling to create clear cut chances. Lots of possesion, corners and long shots but not enough penetration in those games. But that's football eh, if anyone knew how to get a team winning 4-0 every game they'd win everything under the sun. This little spell we're on at the moment of scoring goals and playing with an energy and enthusiasm that seemed to desert us at home to Man City or Stoke, for example, should hold us in good stead for similar situations next season so we can squeeze out another half a dozen or so points which we couldn't this year.

[Slave]

What, at all this season? Yes our defenders have been making more out-of-character mistakes this season but if we lose out on the title by a few points it'll be the home draws that has cost us. And apart from the spirit shown against Hull for the 2-2 and a period of play against West Ham those draws at home have been drab, tepid affairs with us struggling to create clear cut chances. Lots of possesion, corners and long shots but not enough penetration in those games. But that's football eh, if anyone knew how to get a team winning 4-0 every game they'd win everything under the sun. This little spell we're on at the moment of scoring goals and playing with an energy and enthusiasm that seemed to desert us at home to Man City or Stoke, for example, should hold us in good stead for similar situations next season so we can squeeze out another half a dozen or so points which we couldn't this year.

It doesn't matter where the lost points have come from really, does it? Yes there have been times when our attacking play has let us down and the instances are well noted by all, but there have been just as many times when our defence has been at fault. The games against Tottenham away, Hull at home, last night ...etc are just as responsible for our lower points tally, so why put the blame on one over the other?

[Red number seven]

The inability to make a clearance has cost us.

Precisely. If we are going to make large numbers of basic defensive errors we are always going to struggle to win games.

We would've needed plans D and E to have won last night, considering we let them score 4!

[Guz-kop]

It doesn't matter where the lost points have come from really, does it? Yes there have been times when our attacking play has let us down and the instances are well noted by all, but there have been just as many times when our defence has been at fault. The games against Tottenham away, Hull at home, last night ...etc are just as responsible for our lower points tally, so why put the blame on one over the other?

Because there has been a pattern developing over the last 2 seasons with the draws that we've been getting which points to a deficiency of some sort in our play. For me the spurs result as a one off, we played superbly but didn't kill the game off but that happens sometimes and can happen to anyone. And to be honest, I find it hard to be too critical of the mistakes we've been making recently because it's almost as if we're seeing ourselves as a couple of goals down in the whole title race and are busting a gut to win and make progress on our goal difference. An attitude like that is inevitibly going to lead to mistakes all over the pitch as was evident against Chelsea. How many other games apart from Hull have we had in which we have been making so many individual mistakes? I can't think of too many to be honest. Mistakes will ALWAYS be part of the game but I don't see it as a chronic problem and feel on the whole our defence has looked more assured this season than last. Those draws in the last 2 seasons have been a big part of us dropping points though and a big area of our game in which we can, and have to, improve upon. No one is ever going to be perfect in those games that you're expected to win against the clubs lower down but there are only so many times we can drop points in a similar fashion and not think there is something wrong in either our approach of execution of plans for these games.

There's no point in moaning about it now though to be honest, I'm just hoping and thinking that our recent football will help us turn that around next season and beyond and we're not bemoaning the same problems costing us. In the whole I'm far less concerned about our attacking threat and getting goals from those other than Torres and Gerrard and maybe on reflection that should be the biggest positive to take away from this season.

[Slave]

Because there has been a pattern developing over the last 2 seasons with the draws that we've been getting which points to a deficiency of some sort in our play. For me the spurs result as a one off, we played superbly but didn't kill the game off but that happens sometimes and can happen to anyone. And to be honest, I find it hard to be too critical of the mistakes we've been making recently because it's almost as if we're seeing ourselves as a couple of goals down in the whole title race and are busting a gut to win and make progress on our goal difference. An attitude like that is inevitibly going to lead to mistakes all over the pitch as was evident against Chelsea. How many other games apart from Hull have we had in which we have been making so many individual mistakes? I can't think of too many to be honest. Those draws in the last 2 seasons have been a big part of us dropping points though and a big area of our game in which we can, and have to, improve upon. No one is ever going to be perfect in those games that you're expected to win against the clubs lower down but there are only so many times we can drop points in a similar fashion and not think there is something wrong in either our approach of execution of plans for these games.

There's no point in moaning about it now though to be honest, I'm just hoping and thinking that our recent football will help us turn that around next season and beyond and we're not bemoaning the same problems costing us. In the whole I'm far less concerned about our attacking threat and getting goals from those other than Torres and Gerrard and maybe on reflection that should be the biggest positive to take away from this season.

Fair play, you're right. I can't disagree with any of that.

[Pr0n]

Well, think about where the defensive mistakes have come from... what kind of game situations. I think it's pretty telling that it was Mascher, Arbeloa and Aurelio who committed them. They had an incredible workload last night, aswell as vs. Chelsea. Keeping up with the kind of high intensity play and high pressure we had comes at a cost. Both Maschers and Arbeloas mistakes came from resting too much "on the ball" (nevermind Arbeloa never had it), they took too much time and there obviously was no warning aswell. Aurelio would not have made such a poor clearance if he had been in better balance, which he would have been if he hadn't been running up and down the pitch all day.

Other than that, we played in the end on the fly which IS dangerous - couple that with even more tiredness and the mistakes are not that hard to fathom.

It's very unfair to just say that Mascher should have cleared the f-ing ball, since playing ourselves out of situations has been such an important part of developing our attacking game. He took too much time on the ball and he didn't get warned about the player coming in from the blind. Just like Arbeloa waiting for the pass. These are mistakes that are easy to avoid when there's no whip on the back.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

spurs was defo NOT a one off.
 it happened again last night

[Pr0n]

Say we had a greater force on the left last night.. Or simply someone who had similar impetus to that of Torres, Yossi and Kuyt.. Don't you think we would have managed to break the deadlock early on, or get the third in second (had we been trailing)? Ofc there is no telling of a particular days form, but in the course of a season such a small but important difference is a game decider.

[hesbighesred]

Don't agree with you there Guz.

Yes, we lacked attacking fluency at the start of the season, and yes, LW and RB would seem obvious areas where we have room for an out and out flair option, but was it a lack of players/poor tactics, or was it a confidence thing?

That Spurs game, for example. It's only now we're playing that kind of football again, and that, followed by Atletico, was a big psychological blow to our attacking confidence. Was it tactics made us more cautious, or was it players falling back to the tried and trusted methods of previous seasons?

Add in that the first few months were hugely disrupted by injuries and olympics, making it very hard to establish a momentum for our Plan 'A' if you like, especially because Gerrard and Torres were notable absentees.

Then consider - Stoke home aside, how many of those 0-0's featured both Gerrard and Torres? How big a factor was stuff like Benayoun, Babel, Kuyt all being either out of form, or in Kuyt's case sans shooting boots?

Spurs was also nowhere near an isolated incident. Us controlling a game and failing to play sensibly when 1 goal ahead has been a repeated feature of this season:

Spurs, Atletico, Wigan, Everton, Chelsea x 2 (CL), Arsenal...then also I'd say a problem whereby if we concede one it's like our heads can drop easily and we go on and concede more, like Hull, Boro. Then think of how many points our attack has rescued for us from the dead, after poor defending: City, Pompey, Wigan, Boro...

Now just look at how many goals we've scored against our rivals, and how we dominated Balckburn and Fulham - only real difference in those games to earlier in the season was the form of players like Kuyt and Benny.

As it is now, and looking ahead to next season, I think it's madness to look at a bunch of 0-0's from quite some time ago now and say that's more important to concentrate on than the many goals we've gifted opponents in the latter half of the season, especially since there's real extenuating circumstances for our lack of attacking fluency - not something you can really say about our defence.

I think it says a lot about the power of the media and the lingering (and always false) perception of Rafa as negative/cautious/too tactical or whatever that we can have shipped 11 goals in 4 matches, be top scorers in the prem by a distance now, have a significantly worse goals against column than our immediate rivals, and are behind thanks to a 14 game (or whatever it was) run by our rivals of 1-0's built entirely on defensive solidity yet still have a large section of people convinced that the problem lies mainly with our attack.

[hesbighesred]

Say we had a greater force on the left last night.. Or simply someone who had similar impetus to that of Torres, Yossi and Kuyt.. Don't you think we would have managed to break the deadlock early on, or get the third in second (had we been trailing)? Ofc there is no telling of a particular days form, but in the course of a season such a small but important difference is a game decider.

We'd have broken the deadlock early on if Torres could learn to curb his selfishness too - his inability to hold up play has also been a factor in our inability to control and slow down possession at times. Not that I'd want to swap him for anyone in the world but I think it's hugely important that we look at problems, wherever they may be, in a holistic fashion, not just exuse players because they happen to be world class or whatever. Similarly, an attacking RB would not only improve our defence by keeping Arby fit, it's also an obvious area for improvement in attack.

On your point, if our FB's do have a weakness it's in not being the quickest. When we play more controlled possession football (as we should have at 2-1, towards the end of the Wigan game, Spurs game and plenty of others this season) it doesn't matter, but if a team can break at pace, or if the game becomes more end to end, they struggle to make up the ground, in those kind of games someone like a fit Degen, for his pace alone, could be more useful than our FBs (G Johnson would be my pick, Insua looks ready to offer that option next season on the other flank).

[Red number seven]

I think it says a lot about the power of the media and the lingering (and always false) perception of Rafa as negative/cautious/too tactical or whatever that we can have shipped 11 goals in 4 matches, be top scorers in the prem by a distance now, have a significantly worse goals against column than our immediate rivals, and are behind thanks to a 14 game (or whatever it was) run by our rivals of 1-0's built entirely on defensive solidity yet still have a large section of people convinced that the problem lies mainly with our attack.

Great paragraph.

[Guz-kop]

Spurs was also nowhere near an isolated incident. Us controlling a game and failing to play sensibly when 1 goal ahead has been a repeated feature of this season:

Spurs, Atletico, Wigan, Everton, Chelsea x 2 (CL), Arsenal...then also I'd say a problem whereby if we concede one it's like our heads can drop easily and we go on and concede more, like Hull, Boro. Then think of how many points our attack has rescued for us from the dead, after poor defending: City, Pompey, Wigan, Boro...

Atletico, Wigan, Everton and the first leg against Chelsea I don't think we played anywhere near as well as we did at white hart lane. We bossed spurs for 70 minutes of that game and could've been 3 or 4 up easily. You are right about the other games you mention though where we've had to come from behind but in those games I don't remember us tearing the other side a new one at all really until we absolutely had to. City away we were pretty shite for most of the first half after a good first 10 minutes and Pompey away we had a lot of the ball and a very weakened team did well without being able to create many clear cut chances. I still think we have (hopefully that's had) a major problem with some certain types of games. I'm not saying our attack is the biggest flaw in our game and as I said in my last reply I think we've made great strides this season with getting good seasons out of players other than Gerrard and Torres in an attacking point of view. Kuyt, Benayoun, Alonso, Arbeloa and Aurelio have all added to that along with a solid if unspectacular season from Riera. But I can't look back on this season so far and last season as well and not think there is a chronic problem with our play in certain games. Like I said, no one is ever going to have a perfect record but the performances we saw against the likes of Hull (2nd half anyway), West Ham, Fulham, Stoke and Man City at home just weren't good enough and they all followed a very similar pattern of us having lots of the ball, lots of corners and inevitibly a real lack of cutting edge to our play. It was a big disappointment because a similar problem existed last season as well and in the last two years we've also made great strides in games against the mancs and chelsea. In the end though, I agree there's no point looking back and pointing the finger now and I dont think Rafa and the boys will have that on their minds, but, all I'm saying is that I think that problem has existed this season (and last) and has gone some way to denting our challenge this season BUT I'm sure the football we've played in the last 4-6 weeks, whether it's borne out from a "fuck it lets have a go anyway" approach or not, will help us rectify that problem a little bit next season.

[Pr0n]

We'd have broken the deadlock early on if Torres could learn to curb his selfishness too - his inability to hold up play has also been a factor in our inability to control and slow down possession at times. Not that I'd want to swap him for anyone in the world but I think it's hugely important that we look at problems, wherever they may be, in a holistic fashion, not just exuse players because they happen to be world class or whatever. Similarly, an attacking RB would not only improve our defence by keeping Arby fit, it's also an obvious area for improvement in attack.

On your point, if our FB's do have a weakness it's in not being the quickest. When we play more controlled possession football (as we should have at 2-1, towards the end of the Wigan game, Spurs game and plenty of others this season) it doesn't matter, but if a team can break at pace, or if the game becomes more end to end, they struggle to make up the ground, in those kind of games someone like a fit Degen, for his pace alone, could be more useful than our FBs (G Johnson would be my pick, Insua looks ready to offer that option next season on the other flank).

I do think a good attacking RB would add something.. fully agree with that. However the way we play, the fullback venturing forward - I don't think that pace is necessarily the most important factor for a fullback when it comes to keeping it tight at the back. The key areas for me to provide stability and a good attacking platform is centremid and Mascher was nowhere near his best in the beginning of the season which also played it's part in terms of defensive stability. Xabi is a very, very good player (he's been instrumental this season) but he's not the quickest and in a game like yesterdays it could have been good to have another reasonably fast centremid next to mascher.
I have some doubts about Lucas as a "traditional" CM, I think he's seemed a lot better adjusted playing further forward.

Another direct key area, obviously, is the centreback.. and Skrtel has been good at closing down opponents in the spaces left by our attacking fullbacks, Carra and Agger managing aswell. Obviously, with Agger's and Sami's futures in the balance we might dig into the possibility of signing another CB. I'd like to have a go at Wheater although he's maybe not the quickest of defenders around..

I fully agree on that we have to look at our game as a whole and that the "problem" isn't mainly concering our attack, however we need to improve on the wide options.

[John C]

It doesn't matter though does it mate because our title challenge was over in early March wasn't it?

I would say, however, that the fact we have scored eight goals against two of the big four in our last two games without the Gerrard-Torres partnership rather undermines your argument.

We can score 4 against anyone we want whenever we want now Kev, don't forget Man U.

[Pr0n]

For me, we could do with someone who's better on the ball than Arbeloa.. (rather than faster, in particular) That would make difference in both ways - loosing posession less, more individual impetus going forward.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

wheater as a long term replacement for sami
but who do we get for agger?

garay is going to madrid and albiol is overated but could be good cover for right back/centre back
liked fazio when he has played but not currently in the seville first 11

[redchiz]

So, Gerrard has missed the last 3 games and we've scored...12 goals. Hmmmmm

And in the last 11 games Gerrard has missed we haven't lost.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good spouting of bollocks.

[Sarge]

So, Gerrard has missed the last 3 games and we've scored...12 goals. Hmmmmm

And conseeded 8.

[liverbnz]

Atletico, Wigan, Everton and the first leg against Chelsea I don't think we played anywhere near as well as we did at white hart lane. We bossed spurs for 70 minutes of that game and could've been 3 or 4 up easily. You are right about the other games you mention though where we've had to come from behind but in those games I don't remember us tearing the other side a new one at all really until we absolutely had to. City away we were pretty shite for most of the first half after a good first 10 minutes and Pompey away we had a lot of the ball and a very weakened team did well without being able to create many clear cut chances. I still think we have (hopefully that's had) a major problem with some certain types of games. I'm not saying our attack is the biggest flaw in our game and as I said in my last reply I think we've made great strides this season with getting good seasons out of players other than Gerrard and Torres in an attacking point of view. Kuyt, Benayoun, Alonso, Arbeloa and Aurelio have all added to that along with a solid if unspectacular season from Riera. But I can't look back on this season so far and last season as well and not think there is a chronic problem with our play in certain games. Like I said, no one is ever going to have a perfect record but the performances we saw against the likes of Hull (2nd half anyway), West Ham, Fulham, Stoke and Man City at home just weren't good enough and they all followed a very similar pattern of us having lots of the ball, lots of corners and inevitibly a real lack of cutting edge to our play. It was a big disappointment because a similar problem existed last season as well and in the last two years we've also made great strides in games against the mancs and chelsea. In the end though, I agree there's no point looking back and pointing the finger now and I dont think Rafa and the boys will have that on their minds, but, all I'm saying is that I think that problem has existed this season (and last) and has gone some way to denting our challenge this season BUT I'm sure the football we've played in the last 4-6 weeks, whether it's borne out from a "fuck it lets have a go anyway" approach or not, will help us rectify that problem a little bit next season.

I don't agree with you mate. I used to be thinking like you but my mind has changed to be more in between. It doesn't matter if we played better against Spurs, the bottom line is that we failed to close out the game and made silly mistakes that cost us badly, just as against Hull, Wigan, Everton and now Arsenal.

[Regi]

B: Yossi
C: Babel

Forget plan C

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

And conseeded 8.

are you saying he defends better from the front?

[KingKolo]

This thread is essentially debating our over reliance on Gerrard and Torres. It's easy to talk about Plan B or C or whatever but what we need is a general smattering of the right quality throughout the squad.

Gerrard and Torres are huge players for us, and while they did produce last night, the likes of Kuyt and Benayoun don't give enough on a consistent basis to represent a genuine alternative to our main two. Riera is the same, he has wonderful games (Villa), but too many games like last night.

I think we are at most 2 players short, maybe even just 1.

Keane did not make the impact we'd hoped for, and since he's been sold we've been a tad light in numbers. We need a forward who on one hand can cope with being on the bench in games where 2 holding midfielders are required and Torres and Gerrard are both fit, but on the other hand has the sort of quality that Utd and Chelsea possess with the likes of Anelka and Tevez. It's not an easy balance to find, and it certainly went wrong with Keane. Santa Cruz? Who knows if there's even anything at all to the rumour, never mind if he'd be the right player.

I'd love Babel to be that player, but right now the noises coming from he and his agent, coupled with his lack of 1st team action, suggest that we might even cash in this summer. But having spent £11m on him and then benched him for 2 seasons, how much money will we lose? Wouldn't it make more sense to have patience in our investment?

I think we need a genuinely pacy wide player, to compliment the industry of Kuyt and the guile of Benayoun. This would free Babel to start in his preferred central role when an alternative to our main two is needed. But is he capable of doing that job, or do we need to bite the bullet?

[liverbnz]

This thread is essentially debating our over reliance on Gerrard and Torres. It's easy to talk about Plan B or C or whatever but what we need is a general smattering of the right quality throughout the squad.

Gerrard and Torres are huge players for us, and while they did produce last night, the likes of Kuyt and Benayoun don't give enough on a consistent basis to represent a genuine alternative to our main two. Riera is the same, he has wonderful games (Villa), but too many games like last night.

I think we are at most 2 players short, maybe even just 1.

Keane did not make the impact we'd hoped for, and since he's been sold we've been a tad light in numbers. We need a forward who on one hand can cope with being on the bench in games where 2 holding midfielders are required and Torres and Gerrard are both fit, but on the other hand has the sort of quality that Utd and Chelsea possess with the likes of Anelka and Tevez. It's not an easy balance to find, and it certainly went wrong with Keane. Santa Cruz? Who knows if there's even anything at all to the rumour, never mind if he'd be the right player.

I'd love Babel to be that player, but right now the noises coming from he and his agent, coupled with his lack of 1st team action, suggest that we might even cash in this summer. But having spent £11m on him and then benched him for 2 seasons, how much money will we lose? Wouldn't it make more sense to have patience in our investment?

I think we need a genuinely pacy wide player, to compliment the industry of Kuyt and the guile of Benayoun. This would free Babel to start in his preferred central role when an alternative to our main two is needed. But is he capable of doing that job, or do we need to bite the bullet?

Is 12 goals and 8 assists not ample to stop calling Kuyt 'inconsistent' or 'just industrious'. Is there any other RM in the world with stats like those, other than maybe the cream of the crop of world footballers?