Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Yorkykopite]

You can be as glib as you like.

Cheers.

Are you saying that you aren't just a little impressed with Eeyore's instructive little map? Imagine if there was a cluster of 10 Premier League referees in the London area instead of Lancashire and Merseyside. What would you think? I know what Andy from Allerton would think. We all do. He hates Londoners as it is. Really hates them. But ten refs from London? He'd self combust.

[GreatEx]

You are an elusive bugger aren't you? How about you address the content of my post before you do another redirect.

[Eeyore]

You are an elusive bugger aren't you? How about you address the content of my post before you do another redirect.

It's what he does. He cherrypicks one line of a post, ignores the context of your post, and then avoids answering any question you ask him.

[tubby]

It's what he does. He cherrypicks one line of a post, ignores the context of your post, and then avoids answering any question you ask him.

Whereas you give direct answers every time and never shift the goalposts?

[Eeyore]

Whereas you give direct answers every time and never shift the goalposts?

Exactly

[tubby]

Exactly

[Avens]

It's what he does. He cherrypicks one line of a post, ignores the context of your post, and then avoids answering any question you ask him.

Truly astonishing post. I kind of admire it 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Robbie Fowler's take

_______________________________________________________________________________

ROBBIE FOWLER COLUMN: The failure to award Liverpool a penalty late on in their draw with Manchester City is one of the latest sagas to lay bare the problems with VAR.
Football isn’t rocket science. Fans will always recognise a great goal, a defence-splitting pass or a brilliant save.
And they can also spot a dodgy refereeing decision a mile away. Which is why Howard Webb appears to be taking us all for fools with his rather creative takes on some of the calamitous mistakes that are bringing the Premier League into disrepute.
Webb’s latest attempt to con us all into thinking that anyone who doesn’t own a whistle, a flag or a VAR monitor doesn’t really understand the game would be comical if it wasn’t just another example of the lunatics taking over the asylum. The PGMOL chief did his very best to paint Jeremy Doku’s chest-high challenge on Alexis Mac Allister in Liverpool’s recent meeting with Manchester City as an innocent ‘coming together’ that didn’t warrant a penalty.
Anyone who watched the game knew that Doku got away with one. Not just in terms of referee Michael Oliver missing the offence as it happened, but in the way VAR official Stuart Attwell failed to advise him to take another look on the pitch-side monitor despite being armed with replays of the incident from every conceivable angle.
It was exactly the type of scenario that VAR was supposed to rectify. Instead, Webb expected us all to accept that a throat-threatening challenge doesn’t cross the threshold. Until next week, when it does. Or how winning the ball first and catching someone with a follow-through is a foul this time. When next time it won't be.
‌I’m not bringing the issue up because it was Liverpool who suffered against City. These errors of judgement are taking place every single week and the man who has been put in charge of our referees shapes his narrative to fit any decision.
It was much more preferable when referees were allowed to make what we all knew were ‘honest mistakes’ rather than having another official sat in isolation at Stockley Park compounding the situation. For Webb to go on TV in a bid to convince us all that his team of match officials were right after all, and that it’s the rest of us who don’t know what we’re talking about, is crass in the extreme.
I’m sorry, Howard, but every time I hear you trying to explain away these decisions, you come across as a jobsworth doing what he can to defend his mates. Football belongs to fans and players. But it’s been ambushed by administrators and officials who are trying to make the game perfect.‌ They don’t understand that it’s those imperfections that make football what it is.
Do I trust the bureaucrats to do the right thing and ditch VAR? Not when the refereeing profession appears to have become jobs for the boys (and girls).
It wasn’t that long ago that the only officials required were the referee, two assistants and a fourth official. These days, even the VAR has got an assistant!
TV channels have their own in-house former referee to offer so-called insights during games. It’s amazing how quickly their opinions change depending on what decision is conjured up on the pitch.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories. I don’t believe for one second that referees are anything but sincere in the way they go about their business on the pitch.
But VAR has given them a get-out clause. If they make a mistake and it isn’t corrected at Stockley Park then they can’t be blamed. As an added insurance policy they have an old mate or the boss in the television studio trying to sell us the idea that everything is actually on point.

RESIGN HOWARD WEBB !

[Son of Spion]

It can, but not uniformly and not always predictably.

There are several reasons why there is no easy translation from one to the other in football refereeing. One, which I've mentioned before, is professional pride. The determination to 'do a good job', indeed to 'excel' is a powerful motive force in most professions and that can definitely act to neutralise bias.

The second is so obvious that we sometimes forget it. Referees perform in front of 60,000 people - and millions more on TV and streams. Systematic bias is therefore much harder to conceal than in, say, the police force (Eeyore's favourite hobby horse). The scrutiny of referees is incredible when you think about it. Their performances are mulled over and argued about incessantly. I'd go so far as to say that there is no other profession in Britain which is subjected to so much intense and detailed scrutiny as a Premier League referee.

I definitely take the points made there. I also agree that officials do have a ridiculous amount of scrutiny on them.

The problem for me, though, is I don't feel that the profession is actually that professional in practice. I think we all want to be the best we can be at whatever we do. However, when standards are so slack, and mistakes are defended to the hilt, there's always going to be a problem.

Many of us might recognise how working in a lax, arse-covering environment tends to reduce the quality of work. When people know they don't really have to try, they often slacken off and do the minimum necessary. If people know they can take the piss, they often do so.

I think good practice takes discipline. It also takes a willingness to reflect and improve. The problem with officialdom in football, as I see it, is there doesn't appear to be much in the way of honest reflective practice. Officials just close ranks and infuriated managers end up getting fined for voicing their quite natural frustration.

Regardless of whether or not we believe there is corruption at play in certain instances, I think we can pretty much all agree that standards are low. What compounds things further is those standards are defended by the PGMOL rather than addressed by them. To me, that just gives the green light to further poor standards. It promotes a lack of accountability too.

I think even the best workers can drop their standards when working for a shoddy, lax organisation that actually defends bad practice.

[JP!]

How this thread has blundered on for 77 pages is fucking beyond me

'There's a conspiracy'
'No there isn't'
'Yes there is'
'No there isn't'

'That was never five minutes just now' etc

[GreatEx]

Shhh, we're on the cusp of a breakthrough here, I can feel it

[Son of Spion]

Shhh, we're on the cusp of a breakthrough here, I can feel it

Are we nearly there yet? 

[farawayred]

Are we nearly there yet? 

Any moment now.

[Timbo's Goals]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/dnPvNXhBrKY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/dnPvNXhBrKY</a>

 Perhaps even some honest supporters of other clubs (they DO exist!) who begin to say, "Weird isn't it? There does seem to be something iffy about the way Liverpool are being systematically refereed."
   

I did say I was staying out of here due to the apparent determination of some on here to deny without fail what is the bleeding obvious to any objective football supporter let alone one supporting our club. The very club, that is, who could possibly lose the title this season as a result of three crucial refereeing/VAR rulings very likely denying us a draw and two victories in those games and with it a very likely 5 extra points.

I myself no longer have the patience to continue engaging the apologist bollocks of those attempting to reject the only plausible explanation for the officials failing to adjudicate on what were cut and dried incidents with the impartiality required of high ranking officials, in all three of these result defining instances. Namely those officials simply not wanting to rule in favour of Liverpool for whatever reason that compelled them individually and collectively to do so.

So take a bow Eeyore, Andy, Andy82, Great Ex, JRed, Redley, Rob and others too for having that patience I no longer have and demolishing the nonsense of those who seek to perpetuate their contention that the indefensible decisions we have all witnessed with such anger, frustration and utter incredulity are merely down to incompetence or human error by officials of such high station in the game.

Anyroad just to help you guys in your quest to attain some level of commonsense within the thread I am compelled to provide above a response to Yorky's plea to have fans from other clubs supporting the notion that Liverpool are getting fucked by officialdom. Mark Goldbridge is a fanatical Man United fan and the ensuing You Tube video reveals how he feels about the situation as do the bulk - rabid Liverpool haters apart - of the close to 2,000 fans from a host of different clubs who chose to comment on his video.

[Avens]

Robbie Fowler's take

So... Robbie thinks it's incompetence rather than bias/corruption/conspiracy? Was that your point? I've missed it otherwise.

[GreatEx]

So... Robbie thinks it's incompetence rather than bias/corruption/conspiracy? Was that your point? I've missed it otherwise.

You think that's what he meant by "Webb’s latest attempt to con us all into thinking that anyone who doesn’t own a whistle, a flag or a VAR monitor doesn’t really understand the game"?

[Avens]

You think that's what he meant by "Webb’s latest attempt to con us all into thinking that anyone who doesn’t own a whistle, a flag or a VAR monitor doesn’t really understand the game"?

He's saying that Webb is coming up with creative ways to say that the referees haven't made mistakes and that those who say they've made a mistake, in Webb's view, don't understand the game as well as referees do. Fowler thinks the refs are shit and make too many mistakes, while Webb is finding ways of defending those mistakes.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Anyroad just to help you guys in your quest to attain some level of commonsense within the thread I am compelled to provide above a response to Yorky's plea to have fans from other clubs supporting the notion that Liverpool are getting fucked by officialdom. Mark Goldbridge is a fanatical Man United fan and the ensuing You Tube video reveals how he feels about the situation as do the bulk - rabid Liverpool haters apart - of the close to 2,000 fans from a host of different clubs who chose to comment on his video.

Goldbridge is a clown who supports Forest, plays a Partridgesque character for clicks and is loathed by most United fans. I thought this was common knowledge by now. If you're looking for a common sense view, you'll have to keep going.

He's saying that Webb is coming up with creative ways to say that the referees haven't made mistakes and that those who say they've made a mistake, in Webb's view, don't understand the game as well as referees do. Fowler thinks the refs are shit and make too many mistakes, while Webb is finding ways of defending those mistakes.

Well, obviously. No one's saying the refs aren't incompetent or always ready and willing to cover each other's backs.

[GreatEx]

noun
noun: corruption; plural noun: corruptions
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

the action or effect of making someone or something morally depraved.

2.
the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.


Aside from the bribery, lying about and misrepresenting facts to avoid accountability meets these criteria, and is consistent with Fowler's accusation. Incompetence suggests lack of intent, this is stronger.

[spider-neil]

I don't think it's corruption I think it's bias. Be it conscious or unconscious. Oliver saw the incident and thought, 'give a penalty with the last kick of the game in the biggest game of the season? fuck that.'

[Avens]

Goldbridge is a clown who supports Forest, plays a Partridgesque character for clicks and is loathed by most United fans. I thought this was common knowledge by now. If you're looking for a common sense view, you'll have to keep going.
Well, obviously. No one's saying the refs aren't incompetent or always ready and willing to cover each other's backs.

Yes, I know, that's my point  I'm just not sure why Andy and GreatEx are holding up that article as some sort of supporting evidence for their arguments that there's an anti-Liverpool agenda.

[GreatEx]

. Oliver saw the incident and thought, 'give a penalty with the last kick of the game in the biggest game of the season when I've got that 1m euro Khalifa City A vs. Khalifa City B derby gig coming up? fuck that.'

edited for conspiraccuracy

[Avens]

noun
noun: corruption; plural noun: corruptions
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

the action or effect of making someone or something morally depraved.

2.
the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.


Aside from the bribery, lying about and misrepresenting facts to avoid accountability meets these criteria, and is consistent with Fowler's accusation. Incompetence suggests lack of intent, this is stronger.

I do think there's a distinction between arguing that there's an anti-Liverpool agenda amongst referees and arguing there's a desire by PGMOL to gloss over/cover up mistakes more generally. Fowler is arguing for the latter and if that's what you've meant throughout this thread, I probably agree. They're not a particularly professionally run group and they like to protect their image by finding ways to change general perceptions about their mistakes.

It's quite easy when football is so tribalistic to do this too. They find an explanation for a mistake that happened against Liverpool and all Arsenal, Utd, and both City fans will jump on board - as many Liverpool fans will if a weird explanation is made for a mistake against one of our rivals.

[CHOPPER]

They’re just shit - this conspiracy bollocks implies that they(whoever they may be) have some form of intellectual prowess and are deviously clever - when the front end of this dastardly corruption network- is a gang of billy no mates, who were in the scouts till they were 20+, their parents voted Tory, aspired to drive a Volvo, who are ex prefects now come referees, who have basically been loners all their lives and crave attention and control, as they’ve been shit at most things all their lives.

I’ve had shits with more charisma and life than a premier league referee.

Stop being paranoid fools, you fools.

[GreatEx]

I do think there's a distinction between arguing that there's an anti-Liverpool agenda amongst referees and arguing there's a desire by PGMOL to gloss over/cover up mistakes more generally. Fowler is arguing for the latter and if that's what you've meant throughout this thread, I probably agree. They're not a particularly professionally run group and they like to protect their image by finding ways to change general perceptions about their mistakes.

It's quite easy when football is so tribalistic to do this too. They find an explanation for a mistake that happened against Liverpool and all Arsenal, Utd, and both City fans will jump on board - as many Liverpool fans will if a weird explanation is made for a mistake against one of our rivals.

I think the corruption of the refereeing body allows the inherent bias of its mostly Mancunian members to affect our results, both by covering up their indiscretions and by petulantly assigning us the targets of our complaints with disproportionate frequency, but I don't think they sit there literally mapping out a plan to do us in. So for me it's bias, corruption, incompetence and unprofessionalism yes, bribery and conspiracy no...t exactly

[JRed]

Paul Tierney is a c*nt.
So are Howard Webb, Michael Oliver, Martin Atkinson, Anthony Taylor, Simon Hooper, Stuart Atwell, Darren England . Have I missed anyone?
I’m fucking sick of these cheats. The on field ref can make mistakes, it’s a tough job especially with how fast the game is now. The VAR can only make mistakes if they want to. They can all give whatever decisions they want to, safe in the knowledge their mate Howard will just gaslight anyone.
Imagine fucking up badly at work then just gaslighting your boss that you were actually correct and they are an idiot for thinking you fucked up. It just doesn’t happen in the real world. The grip these officials have on the game is absolutely bewildering. I just cannot understand how the richest league in the world is being decided by these fools. I’m truly struggling to understand how it’s happening.

[Redbonnie]

I was just coming here to quote that as an example of the pretty awful behaviour that this recent trend of every club genuinely believing all the refs are against them causes. This is from the assistant ref on the day.

"After the final whistle while we were leaving the field of play, we were approached by
Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid. Reid made several comments regarding our
integrity as a group of officials. Reid made a comment calling Paul a “c*nt” at least
three times. Also after being shown the red card he continued to make comments about
the PGMOL making reference to the group of referees being against his club”

We can add Nottingham Forest to the growing list of clubs who believe PGMOL are corrupt/biased against them for whatever reasons they have convinced themselves of. The fact it's coming from an actual member of staff is alarming.

You could say that there was existing beef with Reid and Tierney …maybe Reid didn’t back some of his shit decisions on panel. This explains why Tierney gave us the rub of the green for once because he was more interested in showing reid he’s the man.  The spiteful Nobhead.

Im not saying that’s true but it’s as valid a theory as Forest think there is a conspiracy.

[Timbo's Goals]

Goldbridge is a clown who supports Forest, plays a Partridgesque character for clicks and is loathed by most United fans. I thought this was common knowledge by now. If you're looking for a common sense view, you'll have to keep going.

I was told United but who cares. 

Point is, even if he is a bit loony, hes no Red and everything he spouts in that video and the bulk of the accompanying nigh 2000 comments from fans of multiple clubs regarding that Doku decision and Webb's lies and how weve been consistently and royally fucked this season is spot on. But you go ahead mate. Continue to deny the absolutely bleeding obvious.

Ha ha. To think I was gonna stay out of this asylum   

[tubby]

Any road just to help you guys in your quest to attain some level of commonsense within the thread I am compelled to provide above a response to Yorky's plea to have fans from other clubs supporting the notion that Liverpool are getting fucked by officialdom. Mark Goldbridge is a fanatical Man United fan and the ensuing You Tube video reveals how he feels about the situation as do the bulk - rabid Liverpool haters apart - of the close to 2,000 fans from a host of different clubs who chose to comment on his video.

Yorky asked why opposition fans aren't saying there's an agenda against Liverpool, and I can't see in that video where Goldbridge says there is?

He's saying what Yorky and the rest of us have been saying, that it was a penalty, VAR bottled overruling it, and Webb talked a bunch of bollocks afterwards to try and justify it.

[spider-neil]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/dnPvNXhBrKY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/dnPvNXhBrKY</a>

[Timbo's Goals]

They’re just shit - this conspiracy bollocks implies that they(whoever they may be) have some form of intellectual prowess and are deviously clever - when the front end of this dastardly corruption network- is a gang of billy no mates, who were in the scouts till they were 20+, their parents voted Tory, aspired to drive a Volvo, who are ex prefects now come referees, who have basically been loners all their lives and crave attention and control, as they’ve been shit at most things all their lives.

I’ve had shits with more charisma and life than a premier league referee.

Stop being paranoid fools, you fools.

Paranoid!!! Are you for fucking real Chopper?

Three decisions possibly depriving us of as many as 5 points and very possibly come May the league title and all three so clearly stemming from some inclination of the officials both on and off the pitch in each instance to depart entirely from what should be their core essence which is to be impartial and despite the overwhelming and clear visual evidence to completely ignore that and to make a decision not to favour Liverpool.

Incidently, I'm new to the thread but the only posters I've seen spouting the term conspiracy are those who are seemingly convinced there's nowt wrong in an attempt to dismiss those who do.

 Personally speaking all I know for sure is that in those three so crucial match affecting instances -two at Anfield and one at Spurs - those bustards chose for whatever reason not to favour us with the on field and VAR decisions which so clearly should have been in our favour and that those c*nts could yet cost us another title.

[Timbo's Goals]

Yorky asked why opposition fans aren't saying there's an agenda against Liverpool, and I can't see in that video where Goldbridge says there is?

He's saying what Yorky and the rest of us have been saying, that it was a penalty, VAR bottled overruling it, and Webb talked a bunch of bollocks afterwards to try and justify it.

He actualy does venture into that territory at one point but in the main its a prevailing theme  amongst the plethora of fan comments including many non Reds and even Arsenal fans saying how hollow it would be for them if they did pip us to the title given the Diaz, Odegaard and Doku abominations.

[Redbonnie]

Goldbridge is a clown who supports Forest, plays a Partridgesque character for clicks and is loathed by most United fans. I thought this was common knowledge by now. If you're looking for a common sense view, you'll have to keep going.
Well, obviously. No one's saying the refs aren't incompetent or always ready and willing to cover each other's backs.

Are you saying Goldbridge is wrong?

[tubby]

He actualy does venture into that territory at one point but in the main its a prevailing theme  amongst the plethora of fan comments including many non Reds and even Arsenal fans saying how hollow it would be for them if they did pip us to the title given the Diaz, Odegaard and Doku abominations.

Sure, but there's no opposition fans saying there's an agenda against Liverpool?

[Redbonnie]

So to conclude refs are just shit weirdos who would be school prefects etc and love power. The leader of the shit weirdo pack covers up for them.

Being “a shit weirdo” means you are technically incompetent and make bad decisions in games,

However even though these people are demonstrably unprofessional and shit and weird they absolutely would not collude against a team run by the coolest most popular guy who gets all the girls, and laughs at them.

They also wouldn’t be open to being manipulated by one of their pack who is on the take. Like the Doku VAR and Oliver for example.

My point is how does being incompetent and having a weak personality make you less likely to be corrupt and corruptable?

[Avens]

So to conclude refs are just shit weirdos who would be school prefects etc and love power. The leader of the shit weirdo pack covers up for them.

Being “a shit weirdo” means you are technically incompetent and make bad decisions in games,

However even though these people are demonstrably unprofessional and shit and weird they absolutely would not collude against a team run by the coolest most popular guy who gets all the girls, and laughs at them.

They also wouldn’t be open to being manipulated by one of their pack who is on the take. Like the Doku VAR and Oliver for example.

My point is how does being incompetent and having a weak personality make you less likely to be corrupt and corruptable?

It doesn't, but in its own right, it's also a viable alternative explanation for their inconsistency and poor decision making. And applying Occam's Razor, it seems the more like scenario to me.

[rob1966]

I was told United but who cares. 

Point is, even if he is a bit loony, hes no Red and everything he spouts in that video and the bulk of the accompanying nigh 2000 comments from fans of multiple clubs regarding that Doku decision and Webb's lies and how weve been consistently and royally fucked this season is spot on. But you go ahead mate. Continue to deny the absolutely bleeding obvious.

Ha ha. To think I was gonna stay out of this asylum   

He is a Utd fan, he's from Nottingham and went to some games as a kid and so that's been throw at him, this is him at 12

[Redbonnie]

noun
noun: corruption; plural noun: corruptions
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

the action or effect of making someone or something morally depraved.

2.
the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.


Aside from the bribery, lying about and misrepresenting facts to avoid accountability meets these criteria, and is consistent with Fowler's accusation. Incompetence suggests lack of intent, this is stronger.

Conspire .. to act together to do harm.

[Redbonnie]

It doesn't, but in its own right, it's also a viable alternative explanation for their inconsistency and poor decision making. And applying Occam's Razor, it seems the more like scenario to me.

In that case a little tip, if someone from your bank calls to say there has been a fraud on your account …hang up.

[spider-neil]

I disgree that the Odegaard basketball incident would have resulted in two more points as we scored about a minute later.