Topic: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday

[Neil D]

Time of the month I think mate. Then again it always seems to be that time of the month for andu

 

Personally I would love us to stay at Anfield, but worry that staying in our home may mean we lose out financially.

I'd be interested to see a proposal of how the redevelopment would work, specifically how much by and how long we would have to reduce our capacity for during the construction.

I can understand people's skepticism when it comes to FSG but at least they seem ready to declare their intentions.

[Melbred]

I see the usual suspects are out in play even when FSG are actually doing something right.

There is no winning.

[john_mac]

In 2002 it was estimated to cost £60 million for the stadium, now its in the £400 million region.

I didn't want to get into numbers, but documents I've seen estimate higher than you, but point I was making in any case. Parry certainly claimed that the cost of a new stadium was less than redeveloping and that closing the Main Stand with offices, changies, etc. would be massively costly & impractical.

[west_london_red]

I wonder how much the repayments would have been and how far beyond dave and rick it would have been.

£4-5million a year max off the top of my head if they borrowed the whole £60 million, it was a no brainer for anyone with a brain...

[john_mac]

£4-5million a year max off the top of my head if they borrowed the whole £60 million, it was a no brainer for anyone with a brain...

Hang on it was quite strongly opposed by a large proprtion of our fans, you saying they have no brain?

[DutchRed]

Could FSG sell naming rights to the new stands rather than the ground itself? Got no idea how valueable a stands name would be mind.

We all know West Brom play at The Hawthorns. Every RAWK user knows that. Yet, I'd be amazed if 10% of them would be able to name a single name of a Hawthorns stand, apart from travelling Kopites. People don't give any significance to most stands. The Kop would be valuable because it's well-known, but I'd guess about half of the people wouldn't know when we'd call the Centenary Stand the Vodafone Stand from now on.

[JackWard33]

I see the usual suspects are out in play even when FSG are actually doing something right.

There is no winning.

That's pretty condesending - it's perfectly fine to think a new stadium is the better option

[Matt S]

People really will complain about anything.

Fucking hell what's with the negativity? Get a grip.

[west_london_red]

Hang on it was quite strongly opposed by a large proprtion of our fans, you saying they have no brain?

Im refering to Moores and Parry refusing to borrow £60 million to build a stadium, and instead look to sell the club to someone who was prepared to build the stadium... from a business point of view it was a a poor decision for them not to borrow the money and build the stadium when they could.

[Melbred]

That's pretty condesending - it's perfectly fine to think a new stadium is the better option

I'm not talking about those who think a new stadium is a better option. I'm talking about those who think actual progress on the stadium/redevelopment front means nothing at all.

[john_mac]

That's pretty condesending - it's perfectly fine to think a new stadium is the better option

But if we are honest, few of us are anywhere near well enough informed to support any sort of informed discussion, mostly based on sentimentality v pseudo financial acumen, its bad enough when we all think we know what's going wrong with Borini or Jen Chang, but what the fuck? We can't have talk shite.

.......should be out on a Saturday, know that.

[west_london_red]

But if we are honest, few of us are anywhere near well enough informed to support any sort of informed discussion, mostly based on sentimentality v pseudo financial acumen, its bad enough when we all think we know what's going wrong with Borini or Jen Chang, but what the fuck? We can't have talk shite.

.......should be out on a Saturday, know that.

Spot on, and on the note im off to the pub.

Have a good evening one and all!

[cmoogster]

am I the only one that thinks this is positive news??

[Torpedo Tommy]

In 2002 it was estimated to cost £60 million for the stadium, now its in the £400 million region.

My guess is that whoever did that estimate probably took too much info from recently constructed stadia.

In 1997 The Reebok Stadium cost £25m to build in a field at the side of a motorway and only had 25,000 seats.  Riverside stadium cost £16m, Sunderland Stadium of Light £25m - both built in fields at the side of Rivers.  All the above had one thing in common - they had good access to site and were away from any residential areas.

Costs should be considered for new stadium in built up areas which consider logistical problems.

Newcastle United's extension cost £40m+ and was completed in 2000.

The Millennium Stadium in Wales cost £130m+.  Ok it had a roof on it and 73,500 seats but also consider that the project was part of the reason Laing's (The Contractors) went bust.  Someone dropped a bollock on the steelwork quantification.

Rick Parry's estimate was well and truly out and probably came from a chat with a QS over the phone.  I reckon his starting point for a 'new' Anfield back in 2002 would have been closer to twice that original estimate.

[jaffod]

We can easily fill that. I think 65k is what we could fill week in week out of course good marketing and reasonable prices will be required.

Dream on.

[john_mac]

My guess is that whoever did that estimate probably took too much info from recently constructed stadia.

I'm not sure £60 mill was the original estimation, I still have all the original documentation as well as the specs put together by Atkins, from memory it was nearer £100 mill, considered large at the time but a fraction of the Arsenal cost and consuderably less than millenium.

[Mali1]

Dream on.

I don't think it's difficult to fill 65k seats for a club like ours. I don't have sufficient records on my fan card, hence, difficult to get any ticket and have to rely on ticket ballot most of the times. Having more capacity will open more opportunities for long-distance fans. I believe there are many people like me.

[Asam]

Dream on.

If we're playing our current brand of expansive football, with Suarez, Sahin, Allen, Sterling, Suso etc to watch & we're higher up the table, why wouldn't we fill 65K Seats?

[Torpedo Tommy]

I didn't want to get into numbers, but documents I've seen estimate higher than you, but point I was making in any case. Parry certainly claimed that the cost of a new stadium was less than redeveloping and that closing the Main Stand with offices, changies, etc. would be massively costly & impractical.

It is what is included in that original estimate and what is included in the £400m one.  He might have been using it has a method to appease the fans who wanted to stay at Anfield?

If you look at the cost of Newcastle's extension to the Milburn stand, it cost £42m.  Much of that isn't owed to the actual Construction, it is owed to the City Centre location and difficulty working there.  Likewise, many of the new stadia built in that era were out of town and away from residential areas.  The land was cheap and few problems in the ground would be encountered.  So if you pro-rata costs on the new stadia and consider lost revenue from the stand closures then it is easy to understand Parry's flawed numbers

Big difference

[john_mac]

If we're playing our current brand of expansive football, with Suarez, Sahin, Allen, Sterling, Suso etc to watch & we're higher up the table, why wouldn't we fill 65K Seats?

Do you mean that brand of football that seen us without a home win? Home games against Anzhi & Swansea, at a reduced price, on general sale, any takers?

[Earl of Dingleberry]

Allllll rooound the fields of the SuperReds McWhopper Bowl road... 

Prawn Sandwich Avenue

[Fromola]

I see the usual suspects are out in play even when FSG are actually doing something right.

There is no winning.

The announcement's coming from the council. I'll give credit if it ever actually gets built.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I'm not sure £60 mill was the original estimation, I still have all the original documentation as well as the specs put together by Atkins, from memory it was nearer £100 mill, considered large at the time but a fraction of the Arsenal cost and consuderably less than millenium.

Possibly £100m - I'd think that would be closer back then.

I do remember reading something about Parry flaunting numbers about and I thought it was considerably less than £100m - can't find it on the internet.

[Something Awful]

Possibly £100m - I'd think that would be closer back then.

I do remember reading something about Parry flaunting numbers about and I thought it was considerably less than £100m - can't find it on the internet.

Looking at the cost of stadia ten years ago, it absolutely crushes me to see the figures bandied about now.

What changed? Why would a new Anfield cost TEN times more than St Marys in Southampton?

[Torpedo Tommy]

The announcement's coming from the council. I'll give credit if it ever actually gets built.

Isn't that a good thing?

If LCC say "LFC, you can extend the stadium as long as you satisfy 'A', 'B' and 'C' then there is clarity and little for FSG to hide behind.

[Fromola]

Isn't that a good thing?

If LCC say "LFC, you can extend the stadium as long as you satisfy 'A', 'B' and 'C' then there is clarity and little for FSG to hide behind.

It's a start.

[OLDIE]

Isn't that a good thing?

If LCC say "LFC, you can extend the stadium as long as you satisfy 'A', 'B' and 'C' then there is clarity and little for FSG to hide behind.

This

[Kopite B205]

Dream on.

Care to expand on that?

I think we could fill 65k - the ST waiting list alone would contribute largely to that.

[apocalypse]

Looking at the cost of stadia ten years ago, it absolutely crushes me to see the figures bandied about now.

What changed? Why would a new Anfield cost TEN times more than St Marys in Southampton?

for starters energy costs are about double what it was ten years ago. That affects the cost of everything.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Looking at the cost of stadia ten years ago, it absolutely crushes me to see the figures bandied about now.

What changed? Why would a new Anfield cost TEN times more than St Marys in Southampton?

Numerous things:

Location.  This is a big one.  It raises issues for planning and working hours.  Getting materials into the area and putting them up.  Getting surplus out of the area

Ground Conditions.  If you are building in a field that hasn't been built on you are less likely to hit something in the ground

Labour and Plant increases.  Supply and demand.  5 years ago Tata (or Corus as it was) were giving you 9 weeks lead in for steel.  Costs increased through demand.  Now though - the demand is less mind.

Health and Safety.  Consistently changing - changes the way you build things in a safe manner

Environment & Sustainability.  New buildings are categorised to monitor what emissions they give out.  The cost of achieving BREEAM ratings is quite significant

Quality.  Not sure of the St Mary's quality - never been there.  But as an example, if a stadium is built as a metal box with cladding, composite cladding costs around £60/m2 with rails.  Insulated block and single skin cladding will cost similar.  If it is built from cavity wall (brick - ins cavity - block) you are talking more like £100-£110 depending on brick quality.  Consider the amount of brickwork at Anfield and it is easy to see why costs can differ.  Again, planning will be a driver to this.

Inflation.  Cost of living increases each year.  Inflation in building used to be circa 2.5% a year.  So 25% increase is potentially due to this.

Infrastructure.  Might also be a big cost.  When we increase the size of something we naturally increase the demand for things that drives it.  i.e. Electricity and Power.  If this is available within the existing grid - fine.  If not, then we need to provide it which means new mains branches and substations.

Procurement.  Who owns the risk of the cost?  Contractor or LFC?

The other thing is, what is included within the St Mary's stadium and what is included in our estimate of £400m?  Hotels, conference facilities, transport infrastructure etc etc.  We could easily be comparing apples with oranges

[redjed1]

Is this anything to do with David Cameron announcing changes to rules for planning applications?

Can we expect St Helens Glass to be erecting a mammoth conservatory with seating for 10,000?

[Fordy]

Is this anything to do with David Cameron announcing changes to rules for planning applications?

Them changes are highly unlikely to happen.

[Torpedo Tommy]

It's a start.

I'm no FSG fan - they are business men who exist to make money.  If they make their money cleverly and at the same time make us successful, I do not have a problem with that at all.  Call it a partnership with the fans.

However, activities from last May to the end of August have got me looking at FSG differently.  Excluding the way the handled Kenny's dismissal, it might be that they are trying to do the stadium bit right.

If they get this in place and bring in the right players in the next two windows, I think they have a very good chance of making us a self sufficient club.

I have to admit, if they fail in the next two windows and they botch the stadium bit then I'll hold my hands up.

[JohnOK]

Is this anything to do with David Cameron announcing changes to rules for planning applications?

What changes are those then?

[Torpedo Tommy]

Is this anything to do with David Cameron announcing changes to rules for planning applications?

Can we expect St Helens Glass to be erecting a mammoth conservatory with seating for 10,000?

Might get a little sweaty on a sunny August afternoon

[Fordy]

What changes are those then?

Bascially Cameron wanting neighbours to fight with each other and councils not having control by allowing houseowners to extend their homes without planning permission.

It's dreamland thinking - its not happening.

[CharlieAdamsLeftFoot]

this announcement is only about the housing surrounding Anfield, there is nothing to suggest anything will be announced about the ground being redeveloped.

[redjed1]

What changes are those then?

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06418

Originally thought it was only householders, but business premises are mentioned -

"• increase existing permitted development rights for extensions to homes and business premises, in non protected areas, for a three-year period."

[redjed1]

Might get a little sweaty on a sunny August afternoon

More drinks/lolly ices bought by fans.

[peachybum]

this announcement is only about the housing surrounding Anfield, there is nothing to suggest anything will be announced about the ground being redeveloped.

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