Topic: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One

[Bob Loblaw]

You could, but any new kop would not be as 'packed in' or intense as the old one.

Why not? The Kop would still be closed in.

After hours of detailed analysis i've come up with this diagram.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Ливерпул, if you think the parrybowls 'kop' was sufficent, your clearly less informed than your transfer mumblings show you already.

Actually, in terms of acoustics and atmosphere, the ParryBowl's ''Kop'' has some advantages, compared to the present Kop, for several reasons:

1. The capacity of the stand is similar (12,000 seats on the new ''Kop'', compared to the 12,400 on the existing Kop) ...
2. The roof of the new ''Kop'' is descending towards the pitch, unlike the present Kop, where it is horizontal ...
3. The lower part of the corners between the new ''Kop'' and the main stands are actually filled with seats, transmitting the atmosphere from the new ''Kop'' to the lower parts of the main stands in a better way ...

As long as the same supporters are present on the new ''Kop'' on a match-day, the atmosphere will be at least the same as it is now ...

[Peter McGurk]

Actually, in terms of acoustics and atmosphere, the ParryBowl's ''Kop'' has some advantages, compared to the present Kop, for several reasons:

1. The capacity of the stand is similar (12,000 seats on the new ''Kop'', compared to the 12,400 on the existing Kop) ...
2. The roof of the new ''Kop'' is descending towards the pitch, unlike the present Kop, where it is horizontal ...
3. The lower part of the corners between the new ''Kop'' and the main stands are actually filled with seats, transmitting the atmosphere from the new ''Kop'' to the lower parts of the main stands in a better way ...

As long as the same supporters are present on the new ''Kop'' on a match-day, the atmosphere will be at least the same as it is now ...

Those are all good characteristics but it needs to be distinct and different part of the ground - not just another stand like the others.

[Peter McGurk]

Why not? The Kop would still be closed in.

After hours of detailed analysis i've come up with this diagram.

 

The new standards mean the seats have to be farther apart (and wider) - more like sitting in 'the stands' if you know what I mean.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Those are all good characteristics but it needs to be distinct and different part of the ground - not just another stand like the others.

Yes, and it is that way because of nostalgic and emotional reasons, something I can't and won't dispute ...

In terms of architecture, acoustics and atmosphere, there is nothing wrong with the ParryBowl's new ''Kop'', especially if the disabled platform is removed, and it becomes a single-tiered stand ...

[Peter McGurk]

Yes, and it is that way because of nostalgic and emotional reasons, something I can't and won't dispute ...

In terms of architecture, acoustics and atmosphere, there is nothing wrong with the ParryBowl's new ''Kop'', especially if the disabled platform is removed, and it becomes a single-tiered stand ...

But in terms of character it's not... intimidating.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

But in terms of character it's not... intimidating.

It is the supporters that make the stadium intimidating ... Anyway, as you have very eloquently explained at this board, building a new ''intimidating'' stadium (in classic terms) would be very difficult or even impossible, due to the safety regulations ... Not to mention the required transparency of the roof and the required air flow, in order to achieve and maintain the quality of the pitch ...

[Peter McGurk]

It is the supporters that make the stadium intimidating ... Anyway, as you have very eloquently explained at this board, building a new ''intimidating'' stadium (in classic terms) would be very difficult or even impossible, due to the safety regulations ... Not to mention the required transparency of the roof and the required air flow, in order to achieve and maintain the quality of the pitch ...

Yes it would be hard; and it is the fans that make the atmosphere, but the football ground can help rather than hinder. 

As you'd expect, AFL did well with the brief but what concerns me is the bigger spacing and lower angles etc in the regs and standards are creating calmer environments to 'watch' football rather than get involved.  Most every stadium around Europe that everyone likes couldn't be built here for one reason or another.

[Roady]

Why not? The Kop would still be closed in.

After hours of detailed analysis i've come up with this diagram.

Bob that was superb, youve just made me spit my cup of tea out my gob.

[royhendo]

Could the fucking kiddy on experts fuck off and let the actual experts debate this please?

[CraigDS]

Could the fucking kiddy on experts fuck off and let the actual experts debate this please?

Are we to expect no more posts in here then?! 

[LiamG]

let's face it we will never replicate the character of the KOP as a stand alone anywhere else, HKS tried doing it by basing the whole new stadium on it and failed.

[Alan_X]

let's face it we will never replicate the character of the KOP as a stand alone anywhere else, HKS tried doing it by basing the whole new stadium on it and failed.

They completely missed the point though. The Kop is an essential part of Anfield but it's not the whole thing.

[mark82]

They completely missed the point though. The Kop is an essential part of Anfield but it's not the whole thing.

If a new stadium ends up being the option and we take the HKS design off the table people will be talking about the mobey being wasted.
As its such a prestige project for a company to get why don't we throw down the gauntlet to companies like I believed Barca did? Does anyone know if their designs cost them anything?

[Alan_X]

If a new stadium ends up being the option and we take the HKS design off the table people will be talking about the mobey being wasted.
As its such a prestige project for a company to get why don't we throw down the gauntlet to companies like I believed Barca did? Does anyone know if their designs cost them anything?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'throw down the gauntlet' but I'm sure that Norman Foster designed the Camp Nou extension - very high profile and not cheap.

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/projects/1552/default.aspx

High profile projects attract high profile architects - and they don't work for free. Anyway, a new stadium isn't a huge project for that size of architect - Fosters did Wembley with HOK.

[Peter McGurk]

If a new stadium ends up being the option and we take the HKS design off the table people will be talking about the mobey being wasted.
As its such a prestige project for a company to get why don't we throw down the gauntlet to companies like I believed Barca did? Does anyone know if their designs cost them anything?

The FCB architectural competition had a first 'open' and unpaid round and then between 5 and 10 shortlisted firms were paid €40,000 to do a second stage submission.  From the club's point of view it's only the start of the design process.  Once the winner is chosen, the firm starts a fully paid commission to do the work.  You could say the cost of running the competition and compensating the second stage losers only adds to the cost.  On the other hand a tremendous amount of work is done by the bidders and lots of ideas can be generated.

[mark82]

The FCB architectural competition had a first 'open' and unpaid round and then between 5 and 10 shortlisted firms were paid €40,000 to do a second stage submission.  From the club's point of view it's only the start of the design process.  Once the winner is chosen, the firm starts a fully paid commission to do the work.  You could say the cost of running the competition and compensating the second stage losers only adds to the cost.  On the other hand a tremendous amount of work is done by the bidders and lots of ideas can be generated.

I see, thanks for that, knew there was a few designs floating around. Liked the one on its own Island!

[Naughtykid]

Actually, in terms of acoustics and atmosphere, the ParryBowl's ''Kop'' has some advantages, compared to the present Kop, for several reasons:

1. The capacity of the stand is similar (12,000 seats on the new ''Kop'', compared to the 12,400 on the existing Kop) ...

You want to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to actually DECREASE the size of the kop?

And you see that as an advantage?

Fucks sake.

[SP]

Not to mention the required transparency of the roof and the required air flow, in order to achieve and maintain the quality of the pitch ...

Call Thomas Sanderson. I am sure he could whip up some jumbo conservatory blinds that allow the grass to grow, but can be closed for match days to make it more intimidating. Of course the blinds should sit above the glass so as not to dampen the acoustics.

Any more problems you want solving?

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

You want to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to actually DECREASE the size of the kop?

And you see that as an advantage?

Fucks sake.

Actually, the size of the new AFL ''Kop'' would be approximately the same with the present one ... Only, it will have slightly less seats (-3%), due to the new building regulations (minimum spacing between the seats) ... The overall capacity of the stadium would increase significantly (35%) ...

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Call Thomas Sanderson. I am sure he could whip up some jumbo conservatory blinds that allow the grass to grow, but can be closed for match days to make it more intimidating. Of course the blinds should sit above the glass so as not to dampen the acoustics.

Any more problems you want solving?

That's very interesting ... 

I've actually asked myself the same question, if something like that is possible ... 

[Naughtykid]

Actually, the size of the new AFL ''Kop'' would be approximately the same with the present one ... Only, it will have slightly less seats (-3%), due to the new building regulations (minimum spacing between the seats) ... The overall capacity of the stadium would increase significantly (35%) ...

Why build a new stadium, if your not going to expand the kop. It's fucking stupid.

We should be looking at a 14-16k kop in any new stadium imo. Building one the same size, or smaller, is a waste of funds.

It's all well and good saying the supporters on the kop make it  special and not the architectual designs - But its important that the Kop looks as intimidating as possible and that means making it as big as blooming possible.

It's blatantly obvious that you've never been on the kop in a match day. IT's not as black and white as 'the supporters are the key'

[SMD]

I agree there is a world of difference between simple number of seats and the atmosphere on the Kop. The current Kop doesn't compare to the old standing Kop but it has a sense of "depth" (the distance it goes back - not up) which to me is one of the fundamentals, another is that it's contained at the sides, and finally it steel feels like a bank not a steep stand.

Sorry to ask a stupid question but why does the depth make a difference? I haven't been in any of the ends at any other ground so I've nothing to compare the Kop against other than the Annie Road end.

[SMD]

Actually, in terms of acoustics and atmosphere, the ParryBowl's ''Kop'' has some advantages, compared to the present Kop, for several reasons:

1. The capacity of the stand is similar (12,000 seats on the new ''Kop'', compared to the 12,400 on the existing Kop) ...
2. The roof of the new ''Kop'' is descending towards the pitch, unlike the present Kop, where it is horizontal ...
3. The lower part of the corners between the new ''Kop'' and the main stands are actually filled with seats, transmitting the atmosphere from the new ''Kop'' to the lower parts of the main stands in a better way ...

As long as the same supporters are present on the new ''Kop'' on a match-day, the atmosphere will be at least the same as it is now ...

No offence but if you've never been on the present Kop how can you start talking about how the atmosphere would change?

Also your last sentence shows you've no fucking idea what the difference is being at the front or the back of the Kop at the moment.

[Peter McGurk]

No offence but if you've never been on the present Kop how can you start talking about how the atmosphere would change?

Also your last sentence shows you've no fucking idea what the difference is being at the front or the back of the Kop at the moment.

There's always been different parts to the kop (almost originally), the front, 'in the middle', 'out the middle', the back and the wings (and boys' pen).  But with each change the strength of its physical character has diminished.  Obviously sitting down was the big one, but next time it will get worse if we rebuild.  Inevitable - unless safe standing comes in.

[SMD]

There's always been different parts to the kop (almost originally), the front, 'in the middle', 'out the middle', the back and the wings (and boys' pen).  But with each change the strength of its physical character has diminished.  Obviously sitting down was the big one, but next time it will get worse if we rebuild.  Inevitable - unless safe standing comes in.

Structurally, what was the old Kop like?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Structurally, what was the old Kop like?

Big cinder bank, concreted over with steps with one walkway horizontally about halfway up.  The stand I think was wider than the pitch, ie. it tapered out at the sides slightly but that may just be my poor memory.  A proper flight of stairs up to an entrance at the back, other entrance/exits at the sides and at pitch level. Big steel roof that was head up by two big pillars in the centre of the Kop and sloped down in front of them.  It gave the whole place a dark brooding aspect and meant you could hardly see the people in the upper half. 

[Peter McGurk]

Structurally, what was the old Kop like?

Now there's a question for an aul' arse.

Anyway, I've seen pictures of the original mound of earth (apparently surplus from construction of a tram line on WBR).  As far as I know, concrete steps were later laid on the soil (and cinders??).  The outside wall was a concrete frame or concrete encased steel frame with (brick?) infill panels.  The roof was basic corrugated iron (?) sheets on steel trusses and two columns at third points in the length of the terrace - about halfway up.  There was generally a few hanging off these columns (until they got boarded off and spikes put on). One wing was framed construction over one entrance (on the Kemlyn Road side) at the end of a main 'walkway' (flat bit) about 2/3rds of the way up, the other wing was the boys' pen.  The other exit was over the back and directly down from the top to WBR (like Ibrox...). 

The roof was pitched, high at the back and low at the front and covered both wings in one go with a small 'return', which it's said amplified the sound.  There was a row of skylights in the back pitch which would blind any striker on a good day and if they didn't know it was there.  The sun also bounced off the tin on the front right into the eyes of the opposition goalkeeper in the Annie Road end goal just after kickoff on a sunny autumn day - environmentally ideal!

The best spec was about 5/8 of the way up between the two columns slightly to the left of centre. It had my name on it 

Edti:  As VdM says it was a dark and brooding monster. Most of the time you couldn't really see where the back was, so it seemed even bigger than it was.  The (smoke and) steam rising from wet coats on a dark, wet day enhanced the effect!

[Alan_X]

Peter, this is the original Kop and Archibald Leitch's Main Stand (from Engineering Archie - another very good book):

[Peter McGurk]

Peter, this is the original Kop and Archibald Leitch's Main Stand (from Engineering Archie - another very good book):

It's no good, I'll have to ask my dad...

There's a picture of that ferro concrete somewhere...

[SMD]

Cheers guys Easy to see how there's no way you can recreate that these days.

[Alan_X]

It's no good, I'll have to ask my dad...

There's a picture of that ferro concrete somewhere...

There are some good pictures of the old Kop on line - just can't find the right search terms. There's one in particular of Ron Yeats leaning against one of the barriers but I just can't find it.

[Peter McGurk]

There are some good pictures of the old Kop on line - just can't find the right search terms. There's one in particular of Ron Yeats leaning against one of the barriers but I just can't find it.

There's one of Phil Thompson with David Johnson (?) leaning on a bar in a video that Lawro did on the Spion Kop story for the BBC (?)

[Alan_X]

Not great but shows the extent of the stands when empty:

[Terry de Niro]

Talking of old pictures.
This one is a cracker..

[Peter McGurk]

amazing how much bigger it looks with people in it...

[Alan_X]

Talking of old pictures.
This one is a cracker..

That's superb Terry.

[SMD]

Where there's a will...

Hey, he has the same name as you!

How many would that seat?

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Why build a new stadium, if your not going to expand the kop. It's fucking stupid.

Because the entire idea about the new stadium is not about extending the Kop ... It is about having a bigger capacity stadium, with (at least) additional 15,000 seats, and with some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities ... When Borussia Dortmund were upgrading the Westfalenstadion, they didn't make the Sudtribune bigger ... They've increased the capacity of the other stands and filled the corners ... Also, they've built some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities (VIP areas), in order to increase the match-day revenue, without raising the ticked prices for the ordinary fans in the stands ...

[SMD]

Yeah okay but we're not building or upgrading the Westfalenstadion so what Dortmund did is limited in how it affects us. We're Liverpool and we want a ground that screams "we're Liverpool" and that includes having a Kop that emulates the spirit of its predecessors.