Author Topic: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities  (Read 220570 times)

Offline redprodigal

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2010, 08:52:07 pm »
One problem with moving rapidly on the new stadium or an Anfield renewal is getting money for the project.
   

I don't think this will not be much of a problem because:
1. Our debt is now very low, so that would not be a stumbling block compared to before, when H&G would have found it impossible for any financial institution to trust them.
2. You must take into account the probability of naming rights and other sponsorships, these things would be a massive help towards the cost.
3. The new owners are giving off very good vibes which suggest that they know what they are doing and will invest in the correct way to get us back challenging for major honours in the near future. This would guarantee getting bums on seats every week which would provide a continuous flow of revenue which will be of great appeal to the lenders of the finance.

I just don't think that the financing will be a problem with the present owners.

Offline xerxes1

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2010, 10:03:05 am »
I agree. I can't see finance being the issue despite money still be very, very tight. But naming rights will not help so much and there are no guarantees of future income/attendance.
Naming rights could be worth around £100m, (http://www.forbes.com/2006/11/14/baseball-mets-citigroup-biz_cz_kb_1114naming_slide_2.html?thisSpeed=undefined) a conservative figure against the best US deals already concluded.
That would probably represent a little more than a quarter, and a little less thana third of a new stadium cost - in itself that represents the "deposit" on a finance deal.

When Man U and Arsenal set their own stadia strategies, they too had no guarantees of future attendance. However if one considers where Liverpool, sits in the World Football pantheon, and then one checks to see that Anfield is the by 64th largest stadium in Europe hosting the 23rd largest average crowds by attendance, a Board might consider that a larger capacity ground has rewards which dwarf the risks.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2010, 09:40:08 pm »
If you put a £100m in as a ‘deposit’, the best possible return will be destroyed.

Of the 64, there are plenty of half- to  three-quarter empty stadia out there (some that would be carrying the can if they hadn’t been partially public funded).

The first point is factually wrong. A stake of around 1/3rd is what would be required for a commercial loan on a new stadium.There s no return without it. Nor is there that quantum of stake in the first place without one, rebrandings do not attract the same premium as new naming rights.

Either we can lift attendance through established increased ST and Corporate demand sufficient to cover a new stadium or we can't. If we can't we don't do it. Your acceptance of our underperformance in  average spectator attendance which is soley driven by undercapacity is where we differ.



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Offline Corcaigh

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2010, 07:04:25 am »
Let’s say the new 60,000 seat stadium comes in at £300 million and takes 3 years to build. Let’s say NESV was to borrow the full amount required with a 25 year capital and interest loan at 5% interest. It would be prudent to allow for a potential overspend so add on 20% contingency. In total NESV will require an availability of £375 million.

 The first thing we should recognise is that not all of the availability is drawn down on day one; the money will be drawn down as and when to meet the construction costs as they occur. Let’s assume that the construction costs are spread out over the three years at £150 million in year one, £100 million in year 2 and the balance, £50 million in year 3.

At the end of year 1, £150 million will have been drawn down to pay for construction costs. Add to this the interest repayment and total drawings will be £160.6 million.

At the end of year 2, a further £100 million will have been drawn down to pay for construction. Interest fees for the year will total £18.4 million to leave the total drawings at £279 million.

At the end of year 3, the final £50 million will be required to complete the construction. Interest fees for the year will total £23.3 million to leave the total drawings at the end of construction of £352.5 million.

So, in effect NESV will borrow a total of £352.5 million to build the new stadium.

In year 4 and subsequent years there will be income from naming rights and the additional matchday income to service the debt. For example, if naming rights were sold for £75 million over 10 years, and the stadium generated £1200 per seat per year (£266 per seat per year more than currently at Anfield) then the new stadium would easily pay for itself within the 25 year term as well as generating a cash surplus of £5 million to £7 million per year.

Selling the naming rights for £100 million and generating £1400 per seat per year (comparable with ot) would generate a cash surplus of £25+ million per year!

Obviously improving our world wide marketing will generate additional funds, however we should recognise that in terms of commercial activity we are roughly comparable with mu. (2009/2010 Liverpool £67.7 million; mu £70 million) so the scope for increase may not be as great as some might think.

The biggest difference between our income compared with the other big 4 clubs is matchday revenue. In 2009/2010 we generated £42 million compared with £108 million (mu) and £100 million (ars). Even Stamford Bridge, which has a smaller capacity than Anfield, generated £74.5 million!

So increasing matchday capacity is essential if we are to compete. The longer we wait the greater the difference between our income and the others.


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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2010, 03:46:54 pm »
I've done a an article on stadiums here which sum up my concerns, which typically are definitely about my concerns of keeping our identity when we move.

Be very grateful if you can give it a look, deals with my major conerns of the move and also the lessons that I feel should be learned from the Arsenal example. Was meant to be neutral so go easy on my positive comments about Everton ;)

http://upper90magazine.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/identity-theft/
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 03:49:58 pm by Strummer77 »

Offline Red Ol

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2010, 07:08:45 pm »
Nice Article Alex
Can't disagree with any of your sentiment.
I think I'm still torn between a redeveloped Anfield and a new stadium and can see the pro's and cons of both
What is clear though is that if a new stadim is the answer then the feel and taste of the place must pay homage to our glorious past
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2010, 09:06:55 pm »
I've done a an article on stadiums here which sum up my concerns, which typically are definitely about my concerns of keeping our identity when we move.

Be very grateful if you can give it a look, deals with my major conerns of the move and also the lessons that I feel should be learned from the Arsenal example. Was meant to be neutral so go easy on my positive comments about Everton ;)

http://upper90magazine.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/identity-theft/

A nice article.I offer you another take on the "Identity Theft" theme.

What astonishes me is how readily some clubs have discarded iconic names. The Stretford End, The North Bank (Arsenal & West Ham), The Fulwell End, The Kippax - all had massive identity and loyalty, and have been discarded.

Any new ground should retain "The Kop" and the "Annie Rd End".

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Offline Paul

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2010, 01:20:07 pm »
They are nothing like the originals though - you couldn't call a stand the North Bank or the Kippax in the Emirates/Eastlands soulless bowls - it would insult the memory of the originals and the new structures don't have the same identity the old ones did. They may not even have the same people using them.

The bigger problem is the Orange Quadrant / East Stand naming conventions they have taken up. Think up some better original names and create new memories and traditions with them.

Offline Strummer77

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2010, 02:40:03 pm »
A nice article.I offer you another take on the "Identity Theft" theme.

What astonishes me is how readily some clubs have discarded iconic names. The Stretford End, The North Bank (Arsenal & West Ham), The Fulwell End, The Kippax - all had massive identity and loyalty, and have been discarded.

Any new ground should retain "The Kop" and the "Annie Rd End".



I did mention that I think in the way that the Arsenalization thing has forced them to rename their stands- which used to be named after colours. I think traditions must be refelcted in any new stadium we have.

They are nothing like the originals though - you couldn't call a stand the North Bank or the Kippax in the Emirates/Eastlands soulless bowls - it would insult the memory of the originals and the new structures don't have the same identity the old ones did. They may not even have the same people using them.

The bigger problem is the Orange Quadrant / East Stand naming conventions they have taken up. Think up some better original names and create new memories and traditions with them.

Yeh I don't mind the idea of creating something new and exciting but I also think some should be carried over if relevent. Like I think we should still have a Kop (if there is single tiered stand), but I don't particularly see the need for a Cenenary stand as that wouldn't be needed. In fact if we didn't have a "Main Stand" maybe we could create an atmosphere :P.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 02:43:17 pm by Strummer77 »

Offline xerxes1

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2010, 12:35:08 am »
I’m sorry Xerxes but the point is that by using the bank's money, the costs are reduced and the return on investment is increased. The more of your own money you put in, the lower the percentage return is. JWH made this very point in one of his first interviews.

Deposits are not necessary when replaced with guarantees (as at the Emirates). Obviously this is not money paid in as a deposit (which would kill the return) but it is a guarantee to pay the bank if the deal goes south (falling attendances, decreasing revenue, rising costs...)

First para. You are just wrong. A bank charges a commercial rate. If you have the cash the cost is reduced for that project.The return increases.

(Now it is true to say that even cash on deposit used in place of borrowed money, instead of loaned out as "hot money"  has a cost, but that is the cash holders choice).

Second para. Asking or telling? You are wrong. The guarantee you describe is a 100% secured loan - you can't get them. If you think you personally can, I would ring up Henry now.

The Arsenal/Emirates deal is unique and has no funding relevance whatsoever to LFC. Much of the arrangements are public record which you can google at will. But the two key differences are that the Emirates deal was sealed pre-credit crunch in a totally different financial landscape,and cash from the sale and development of Highbury ( Arsenal retained development rights) WAS put into the deal.

There will be many occasions when posters will disagree with opinion- and that is fine, and as it should be. But your two claims are factually wrong.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:38:25 am by xerxes1 »
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2010, 05:49:38 pm »
Is it feasible to close Anfield and share Godison with everton while we redevelop the stadium.

Wouldn't this reduce loss of earnings and enable anfield to be redeveloped much much quicker.

Is there a reason why this couldn't work?


(Imagine if we won the league playing our home games in their stadiumm, it would kill them!)
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2010, 05:52:00 pm »
Is it feasible to close Anfield and share Godison with everton while we redevelop the stadium.

Wouldn't this reduce loss of earnings and enable anfield to be redeveloped much much quicker.

Is there a reason why this couldn't work?


(Imagine if we won the league playing our home games in their stadiumm, it would kill them!)

Can't think of any  ::)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2010, 06:06:34 pm »
Can't think of any  ::)
Ok we would need to get everton to agree to this, but would people really be against a temporary groundshare?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 07:29:29 pm by Tepid water »
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2010, 06:55:13 am »
The bigger problem is the Orange Quadrant / East Stand naming conventions they have taken up. Think up some better original names and create new memories and traditions with them.

The Shankly Gates, The Paisley Stand, The Fagan Dining Rooms, The Roy Hodgson Toilets.
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Offline Corcaigh

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #54 on: January 1, 2011, 08:42:55 am »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on Yesterday at 06:26:32 PM

    I’m sorry Xerxes but the point is that by using the bank's money, the costs are reduced and the return on investment is increased. The more of your own money you put in, the lower the percentage return is. JWH made this very point in one of his first interviews.

    Deposits are not necessary when replaced with guarantees (as at the Emirates). Obviously this is not money paid in as a deposit (which would kill the return) but it is a guarantee to pay the bank if the deal goes south (falling attendances, decreasing revenue, rising costs...)


First para. You are just wrong. A bank charges a commercial rate. If you have the cash the cost is reduced for that project.The return increases.

(Now it is true to say that even cash on deposit used in place of borrowed money, instead of loaned out as "hot money"  has a cost, but that is the cash holders choice).

Second para. Asking or telling? You are wrong. The guarantee you describe is a 100% secured loan - you can't get them. If you think you personally can, I would ring up Henry now.

The Arsenal/Emirates deal is unique and has no funding relevance whatsoever to LFC. Much of the arrangements are public record which you can google at will. But the two key differences are that the Emirates deal was sealed pre-credit crunch in a totally different financial landscape,and cash from the sale and development of Highbury ( Arsenal retained development rights) WAS put into the deal.

There will be many occasions when posters will disagree with opinion- and that is fine, and as it should be. But your two claims are factually wrong.

« Last Edit: Today at 12:38:25 AM by xerxes1 »



McGurk and Xerxes are both apparently unaware of the Modigliani–Miller theorem. This approximates roughly [and under the right conditions] to the value of a firm is unaffected by how that firm is financed. All capital costs. If it is borrowed it attracts interest. If it is equity, it could be earning interest elsewhere. In other words if I invest my money in a new stadium I lose the interest it might earn if it is invested in high interest bonds. The interest charged on borrowed capital is tax deductible so the costs may be only marginally higher than the lost interest on equity, plus my equity is still intact, and a bird in the hand is as good as a nod and wink to a blind horse! All in all the cost to the owners will be roughly the same irrespective of how the stadium is financed. As for how much money the banks might be prepared to lend, if the proposition is good enough, and the price is right, then the banks will provide the finance. Initially the bank might require owner’s equity/guarantees, but eventually the new stadium, of itself. would provide sufficient surety for the loan. Get the timing right and the banks provide all the finance.

 

Not that I think NESV/FSG are going to build a new stadium. They have promised nothing and perhaps that is what they will deliver.

 

The next few weeks should prove very illuminating regarding their long term intentions [or lack of them] for the club. Will they dismiss Hodgson? Will there be any major signings in the January window? Once Hicks and Gilletts' fanciful claims are finally dismissed in February there will be no further constraints on what they [NESV/FSG] might choose to do with the club.

Offline xerxes1

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2011, 12:56:01 pm »
McGurk and Xerxes are both apparently unaware of the Modigliani–Miller theorem. This approximates roughly [and under the right conditions] to the value of a firm is unaffected by how that firm is financed. All capital costs. If it is borrowed it attracts interest. If it is equity, it could be earning interest elsewhere. In other words if I invest my money in a new stadium I lose the interest it might earn if it is invested in high interest bonds. The interest charged on borrowed capital is tax deductible so the costs may be only marginally higher than the lost interest on equity, plus my equity is still intact, and a bird in the hand is as good as a nod and wink to a blind horse! All in all the cost to the owners will be roughly the same irrespective of how the stadium is financed. As for how much money the banks might be prepared to lend, if the proposition is good enough, and the price is right, then the banks will provide the finance. Initially the bank might require owner’s equity/guarantees, but eventually the new stadium, of itself. would provide sufficient surety for the loan. Get the timing right and the banks provide all the finance.
Not that I think NESV/FSG are going to build a new stadium. They have promised nothing and perhaps that is what they will deliver.The next few weeks should prove very illuminating regarding their long term intentions [or lack of them] for the club. Will they dismiss Hodgson? Will there be any major signings in the January window? Once Hicks and Gilletts' fanciful claims are finally dismissed in February there will be no further constraints on what they [NESV/FSG] might choose to do with the club.

The very section of mine you quoted answers your first point substantially:
Quote
(Now it is true to say that even cash on deposit used in place of borrowed money, instead of loaned out as "hot money"  has a cost, but that is the cash holders choice).
Modgliani Miller is G&H's God - make of that what you will. Furthermore because MM argue that there is no difference in capital value, the theory has no relevance whatsoever to how FSG handle the Stadium issue.

The fundamental difference between using borrowed money, and your own money, on a project, is that with your money you have control, with the Banks' the Bank has control - as G&H so spectacularly demonstrated.

I happen to agree with you that the next few months will tell us much about FSG. They only put down £210m to buy us. The stability they have brought alone has probably increased our value, it has certainly increased our attractiveness, beyond the £300m purchase price.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 12:58:09 pm by xerxes1 »
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Offline Chivasino

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #56 on: February 4, 2011, 08:33:48 am »
Leaning towards redevelopment it seems after the interview John Henry done with Fox.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #57 on: February 4, 2011, 09:34:54 am »
Leaning towards redevelopment it seems after the interview John Henry done with Fox.

Is that interview anywhere to be seen?
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #58 on: February 4, 2011, 09:37:16 am »
Is that interview anywhere to be seen?

All over Sky Sports news this morning. Probably on Youtube soon as well.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #59 on: February 4, 2011, 09:41:49 am »
its alright saying we need a stadium the same size as old trafford to compete with the mancs financially, but do people honestly believe we would fill 75,000 seats every other week? our current capacity is 45,000 and we're barely selling out home games this season.
Sorry that fact is more to do with the Ownership, management of the club than the support for the squad.
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Offline annieroader

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #60 on: February 4, 2011, 11:45:34 am »
Leaning towards redevelopment it seems after the interview John Henry done with Fox.
Told ya ages ago btw.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #61 on: February 4, 2011, 11:45:35 am »
Where does he mention redevelopment?

Think it's the way to go mind. 60,000 with much improved corporate facilities is all we need. Start with a big fuck off Main Stand.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #62 on: February 4, 2011, 11:46:49 am »
Where does he mention redevelopment?

Think it's the way to go mind. 60,000 with much improved corporate facilities is all we need. Start with a big fuck off Main Stand.
Main stand will be the last one to be done to be honest.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #63 on: February 4, 2011, 12:33:52 pm »
From the BBC.



Liverpool's principal owner John Henry has hinted he may choose to redevelop Anfield rather than build a new stadium in Stanley Park.

After buying the club in October, Henry said he would weigh up both options.

But the fervent atmosphere at Liverpool's current home appears to have swayed his thinking.

"The Kop is unrivalled," said Henry. "The atmosphere, I was really surprised because we've heard so much about needing a new stadium."

Liverpool have long been planning to build a 60,000-seater stadium at Stanley Park, adjacent to the 45,000-capacity Anfield, but work has yet to begin because of problems with funding under previous owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

Henry faced the same dilemma when he took over the Boston Red Sox in 2002, eventually opting to refurbish the baseball team's historic Fenway Park home.

Henry told Fox Soccer Channel: "We were surprised at how beautiful Anfield was both viewing it as an empty stadium and then with the first game.

 606: DEBATE
Give your reaction to Henry's comments here 
"It would be hard to replicate that feeling anywhere else."

Henry was talking at the end of a busy week for Liverpool, in which striker Fernando Torres departed to Chelsea for £50m and was replaced at a combined cost of £57.7m by Andy Carroll and Luis Suarez, who scored on his debut against Stoke on Wednesday.

Henry explained why he sanctioned the sale of the Torres for a British record fee.

"One of things that we talked about from the very beginning was how important it was that everyone was on the same page. No player is bigger than the club," Henry said.

"We expect players to want to be here. If they don't want to be part of Liverpool Football Club then we should do everything we can to facilitate them going elsewhere."

The victory over Stoke was Liverpool's third in succession, boosting caretaker manager Kenny Dalglish's hopes of getting the job on a full-time basis.

Henry admitted the Scot had made an impressive start to his second reign at the club.

"It's still early but in retrospect you could not have made a better choice," said Henry.

"I know he, for a long time now, has wanted to be in this position, so it's a great thing for the club, for Kenny and for us."



« Last Edit: February 4, 2011, 12:35:24 pm by Big Red Richie »

Offline geoffar2002

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #64 on: February 4, 2011, 01:22:16 pm »
I was at the Stadium and did the stadium tour yesterday. There wa a guy and a gorl doing the tour and they said the plan is now to redevelop, by building a 3 tier main stand adding another tier to the Annie road stand and opening up each end of the new main stand with a capacity of 65000.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass it on.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #65 on: February 4, 2011, 04:44:53 pm »
For me it has to be a new stadium, the current stadium has two poor stands (Anny Rd and Main Stand) which require complete redevelopment in order to incoporate the facilities a 21st Century stadium of a top 4 club needs to have to compete. There are a myriad of uses a new stadium would be able to be used for which the current stadium can't from conferences, to wedding receptions to business meeting rooms as well as the additional match day corporate hospitality arrangements which are a necessity and which are currently being shoehorned into the existing stadium. All these will bring a return on the investment. Add to that potential new shopping, hotel developments etc and it adds up.

I'm sure it's not escaped anyone's notice either that the current stadium isn't exactly a welcoming place in it's current surroundings of a very residential area. It's not something that companies are lining up to use for product launches, trade shows and the like. Compare against the Emirates and Old Trafford with BT Seminars, corporate do's every other day \ week and it adds up.

I'm not saying there's nothing special about Anfield as it is now, but everything is either over-subscribed (corporate boxes, Shankly club seasies etc) or non-existent. These things are where we can make a large amount of money for the club as well as having a new stadium with modern facilities for us as regular punters.

As to the capacity issue, we only need to do what other clubs with large stadiums do, and that is to sell from the pitch outwards. The Kop is always going to sell out, but if the main stand or Centenary don't sell it's often either the extreme back rows or sides which are empty, and to be fair that's only for a very low proportion of games and this season has proved to be the exception rather than the rule. Coupled with an increase in season tickets made available (OT has 55,000 STH's) it will work towards achieving sold out games.

Amongst all this, remember that there is currently a 56,000 season ticket waiting list, if even 20% of this took up their allocation that's an extra 11,000 STH's. Improved performances on the pitch will also boost these figures year by year.

New stadium all the way for me.

Much as I hate to say it - me too.  For the cost/complexity of redeveloping Anfield it isn't worth the potential gain - I'd rather a new stadium.
Unless of course, they knock it down & rebuild it bigger & better at its current location with the surrounding area benefitting from regeneration.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #66 on: February 4, 2011, 04:50:24 pm »
I was at the Stadium and did the stadium tour yesterday. There wa a guy and a gorl doing the tour and they said the plan is now to redevelop, by building a 3 tier main stand adding another tier to the Annie road stand and opening up each end of the new main stand with a capacity of 65000.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass it on.

The club itself has said no decision has been made yet regarding the stadium.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #67 on: February 4, 2011, 06:26:27 pm »
I'm glad that there appears to be at least some momentum either way. Who knows, if the city allows us enough room, NESV may come up with something interesting at lower cost than a new stadium. Don't know enough to know how much room we have there.

I still think a new stadium with a fans stake in it would be massive leaving us well positioned for the next 50-60 years. 60,000 capacity to start with would be nice.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #68 on: February 4, 2011, 07:03:53 pm »
The club itself has said no decision has been made yet regarding the stadium.

as of when? this morning sky said henry has decided to stay at anfield. no mention of any plans, but it sounds like geoffar got the latest word.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #69 on: February 4, 2011, 07:08:48 pm »
as of when? this morning sky said henry has decided to stay at anfield. no mention of any plans, but it sounds like geoffar got the latest word.

He did not.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #70 on: February 4, 2011, 07:44:02 pm »
NESV have barely increased capacity at Fenway since 01.

From: [Day Games] 33,577 [Night Games] 33,993*
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/stadium/fenway_park.shtml

To: *37,402 for night games, and 36,974 for day games  (2010)
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/ballpark/information/index.jsp?content=facts

That would be less than 4,000 for night games, and less than 3,000 for day games.

Apparently they do have the most expensive beer!, and parking and what's called FCI (fan cost index). Also the highest or next to highest average ticket prices depending on what study you look at.
http://teammarketing.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/News/2010_mlb_fci.pdf



« Last Edit: February 4, 2011, 07:52:00 pm by LiverBirdKop »

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #71 on: February 4, 2011, 08:20:49 pm »
as of when? this morning sky said henry has decided to stay at anfield. no mention of any plans, but it sounds like geoffar got the latest word.

He did not, he didnt rule anything in or out.

FSG is, Henry confirmed, studying the possibility of expanding Anfield rather than building the long-mooted new stadium on Stanley Park, a plan which he criticised. "It's not a coincidence that the last two ownership groups could not get a new stadium built," he argued pointedly. "What they proposed or hoped for just didn't make any economic sense or they would have been built. A lot of time and effort is being put into study and creatively looking at all options."

Basically both options are being looked at, staying at Anfield seems to be the favourite option.

Also the Echo said tonight A Liverpool spokesman today insisted no decision has yet been made on the ground issue.


« Last Edit: February 4, 2011, 08:22:39 pm by J Molby »
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #72 on: February 6, 2011, 11:46:27 am »
I can't see this posted anywhere else, but it does give an interesting insight into the debate of Redevelop or Relocate.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2011/02/grounds-for-debate-anfield-redevelop-or-relocate/

Grounds for debate: Anfield – Redevelop or Relocate?
LFC owner John Henry has hinted redeveloping Anfield may be their preferred choice rather than relocating to Stanley Park.
Written by Brian Durand on February 4th, 2011  View Comments

The name alone conjures up an image of inspiration for every Liverpool fan and evokes memories of legendary afternoons and evenings for football supporters the world over. The place is steeped in history. It’s trophy room has been the residence of the League Championship trophy on no less than nineteen occasions. Yes, nineteen. That is neither a misprint nor an error by the author, as the first of those Championship campaigns came when Everton’s name was above the home dressing room door, two years before the well-documented rent dispute which led to John Houlding forming Liverpool Football club. (by the way, the home dressing room in those early days was not at the Anfield ground at all, instead the players had to change at the nearby Sandon pub and would walk across to the ground prior to kick-off).

From the evolution of the mighty Spion Kop, the addition of the vast roof to the terrace in 1928, the Billy Liddell era, the magical sixties under Shankly and famous nights against Inter Milan, St Ettiene, Bruges, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, countless derby day memories etc to the moving tributes to the victims of April 15th 1989, football’s most famous venue has seen just about everything.

When David Moores and Rick Parry decided upon the ill-fated sale of the club to Tom Hocks and George Gillett in 2007, it was because Mr Moores did not have the necessary funds to move Liverpool FC up to the level at which it could compete with Manchester United, insofar as the Anfield capacity was inadequately short of that required.

Enter the new US owners. At their inaugural press conference in February 2007, Gillett confirmed their commitment to abandon the current site and build the proposed New Anfield stadium in nearby Stanley park. “The shovel needs to be in the ground in the next 60 days” he stated clearly. “We are fully supportive of the Stanley park development and of building a facility that we hope will be the greatest facility in this sport”.

This grandiose statement was sadly to prove to be typically wide of the mark and by the end of 2010 the hapless owners had been forcibly removed by a combination of fan-power and foreclosure by the lending banks.

And so to the present. NESV (now FSG) are in control and to the relief of Liverpool’s vast army of followers they have thus far proved to be a model of low-key discretion.

There have been no wild claims, no shotgun announcements; just measured statements more in keeping with the fabled ‘Liverpool Way’.

So where does all this leave Liverpool FC and their stadium dilemma? Earlier this week new Liverpool chairman gave his first series of media interviews in which he confirmed that no decision has yet been finalised over the stadium issue. Tellingly, he did confirm that the current ground is “not fit for purpose” and that Manchester United had “zoomed past us” in the area of matchday revenue.

So how do LFC narrow the gap in generation of matchday revenues?

Basically there are three options on the table (well, two in reality)

- Redevelop current site
- Groundshare with Everton FC (Stanley Park site)
- Relocate to new site in Stanley Park

Let me first of all rule out the second (groundshare) option.

There will be no groundshare, in spite of Everton’s obvious leaning towards it and the regular revisitation of the topic by certain prominent members of the Council and local community. Given EFC’s parlous financial state a shared ground would have to be built and owned by Liverpool with the Blues being tenants. (An ironic proposition, given the circumstances of LFC’s formation in 1892). One end of the stadium would invariably become known as ‘their end’ and there are far too may Liverpool supporters who would simply refuse to occupy those seats during the Reds’ home matches.

So having ruled out the groundshare option, it becomes a straight choice – RELOCATE or REDEVELOP.



Capacity / land constraints

By redeveloping the current Anfield stadium the increased capacity would be limited to the amount of additional footprint available. Both the Kop and Centenary Stands are of a reasonable size and it would be safe to assume that initial development of the Main Stand and Anfield Road End would be high on the agenda. The Main Stand has a small car park area to the rear with terraced houses beyond. However most of the properties in Lothair Road adjoining this side of the stadium are unoccupied and the club has purchased most, if not all of them. (There would be estate issues to be resolved if any were still in private ownership).

Historically the ground has been constrained on it’s north east side by Anfield Road, and when the second tier was added in the 90s the issues of right-to-light was a major stumbling block and curtailed the club’s proposals. Since the planning approval for the new site in Stanley park was granted, however, the properties on Anfield Road directly opposite the stadium have been demolished and cleared to facilitate the proposed Anfield Plaza. (Luckily the first property to escape the bulldozers on the Arkles side of the ground is no73 Anfield Road. A grand property which was the John Houlding’shome and where he held the meeting on 15th March 1892 which resulted in the agreement to form Liverpool Football Club.)

This site clearance work for the new stadium has paradoxically opened up the possibilities for redevelopment. The fact that there is now space between the Anfield Road End makes it possible to extend in that direction. A new stand equal in size to the Kop could now be accommodated. What about Anfield Road itself?

If permission could not be gained to realign Anfield Road so that it is diverted some 30 metres or so into the park then a new stand could span across the road so that the traffic passes through via an underpass. Of course during construction the road would need to be closed anyway for up to a year so in my opinion the option of constructing a diverted thoroughfare as an advanced works phase would be the preferred option.

I estimate initial redevelopment of Centenary and Main Stands as above would enable an increased capacity of up to around 60,000 as a minimum.

The footprint of the approved site in Stanley Park between Mill Lane (path bisecting the main field) and Arkles Lane is of sufficient area to accommodate a stadium of any size up to 90,000.

Corporate Facilities

One of the major issues restricting revenues at Anfield is the inadequate corporate facilities. The new stadium proposal includes tiers of boxes and corporate floors as all new stadiums, with the exception of one end which would be a vast bank of spectators uninterrupted by corporate boxes, in order to duplicate the array of passionate humanity in keeping with the traditions of the famous Kop.

As described above redevelopment of Main Stand /Anfield Road stand could equally accommodate corporate facilities thus addressing the shortfall in the same manner as the new stadium would.

It is unlikely in the extreme that Liverpool will ever generate as much via corporate income as the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal or Tottenham, by nature of the simple fact that the economy in the northwest does not have firms of Investment Bankers or Financial Institutions like the capital. Without patronising it is unreasonable to expect even the most successful Merseyside firms to spend as much on corporate hospitality as their more affluent peers from the south-east.

Programming the Construction

One area in which the new stadium holds the advantages is in programming construction to minimise short-term disruption in revenues. The planning issues are resolved and construction of the new arena could be carried out in its entirety without any effect whilst fixtures are played at the exisiting site.

Redevelopment would inevitably mean that capacity is reduced in the short term. I recall when the Main Stand was constructed in the early 1970’s it was done in three phases and rather than closing one side of the stadium at least one third of that side was always in use to some extent. Nevertheless the cost implications of this would have to be factored in to any decision. Possibly, if diversion of Anfield Road could be agreed, it would be possible to construct behind the existing Annie Rd end throughout the football season with the demolition of the existing stand and subsequent construction of new front section of the new stand undertaken during close season and into the early part of the following season. By doing this a huge stand could be populated, which would then minimise the effects of losing the Main Stand for a year or so.

Tradition

I listed at the start of this piece a just a few of the memorable occasions which Liverpool fans have held dear. Add to that the personal memories such as first visit, first derby match etc and it is understandable why many fans are reluctant in the extreme to countenance demolition of their ‘home’. Let’s not forget the countless times that supporters ashes have been scattered in the Kop goalmouth or on the terrace itself over the decades. No matter how much thought is put into the new design, the risk of losing something treasured lingers.

In the sixties some bright spark on Liverpool City Council gave approval to demolish the famous Cavern Club on Matthew Street made famous by the Beatles. Of course the Cavern Club still attracts thousands of tourists every year, but those tourists have to make do with a replica Cavern Club which has since been built across the road, once the mistake was discovered. If Liverpool FC demolish Anfield, they will no doubt have a superb stadium but if it loses it’s magic they will not have the option of rebuilding a replica of the original in the way of the Cavern.

Aesthetics

Undoubtedly any new stadium in the park would be a sleek state-of-the-art work of beauty, and in this regard this option holds sway. However, as ugly as some may consider the current ground, in my eyes I consider it the most beautiful building in Britain. Seriously. I know it may be a bit of a hotch-potch of styles but whenever I approach it, it inspires me as much as St Paul’s Cathedral or Westminster Abbey. And let’s face it, no matter what the outside appearance of any stadium once inside the focus is firmly on the rectangle of luscious green turf. Football supporters go to the match for the experience. The atmosphere. Without that they may as well stay at home and watch it in comfort on their 50 inch HD or 3D television.

SUMMARY

So, in summary, it is clear that there are so many factors and considerations to take into account for Fenway Sports Group and the new Liverpool Board of Directors that it is understandable that they are taking ample time and surely receiving expert advice before announcing their decision. There is no obvious correct decision, each option having advantages in different areas. Luckily for them, unlike recent decisions over the manager’s position and incoming transfers the supporters are showing patience over the issue, and I suspect that not many are feverishly checking their twitter updates for the latest stadium news.

Hopefully I have outlined the advantages and disadvantages of both options, and although I started out writing with what I thought was an open mind, during the course of composing this blog you have probably gathered that I have come down marginally on the side of the Redevelopment option.

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Offline scouse29

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #73 on: February 8, 2011, 10:05:57 am »
If Spurs can't make a new stadium work in the middle of 14m people in the capital city.... dead in the water is the phrase that springs to mind and dead in the water is the phrase used:


"Tottenham chairman Daniel Levy has confirmed to Sky Sports that they have abandoned any plans to move to a stadium next to their current home at White Hart Lane.

Spurs are bidding alongside West Ham Unitedto take over the Olympic stadium in East London.

Tottenham had previously sorted out planning permission for a site next to their current home.

But despite getting the green light from the local council for the Northumberland Development Project, the costing of the proposals mean Spurs no longer consider them viable.

"That is absolutely dead in the water," Levy told Sky Sports News.

"We have made it clear that the current stadium proposals at Tottenham are not viable so that is not something we are able to proceed with.

"At the moment we do not have an alternative.""


http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_6737674,00.html

Seen this earlier. I wonder why thou? Demnad on tickets or finance?

Not as easy as it first appears thou is it?

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #74 on: February 8, 2011, 10:42:12 am »
If redevelopment does go ahead what happens to the site that was supposed to house the new stadium? Also, how pissed off will the council be if Liverpool choose to stay after all the stadium shenanigans?

Personally I think redevelopment is a tad short-sighted.  Its basically patching up your house and getting 30 40 years out of it, when in reality building a new one would set you up for the next century and a half.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #75 on: February 8, 2011, 11:12:28 am »
Seen this earlier. I wonder why thou? Demnad on tickets or finance?

They gone spent their money on players and wages to get themselves CL football. Numbers now don't add up in comparison to, say, paying relative peanuts for the Olympic stadium and selling White Hart Lane for redevelopment to cover the cost of the move. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could still push for a purpose built new stadium though it would cripple them financially now. But if you can have your cake and eat it, then that's always a better option, no?
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #76 on: February 8, 2011, 11:56:11 am »
"...the costing of the proposals mean Spurs no longer consider them viable." (and that's for only 51k)
That is grossly misleading, and you know it.

Spurs 106 and associated costs obligations( Transport for London and EH) came out at around £120m, with the 60k Northumberlans Development Project  application,which unsurprisingly came as a bit of a shock to Spurs, and led them to believe that the Council were dipping excessively into the Spurs till.

Part of this is a negotiating tactic, which always takes place between the Developer and Council on large projects, and is part of the natural push and shove. Spurs position is obviously significantly improved if they have an alternative!

It is worth saying that the cost of the 106 and asociated obligations for the New Anfield have never been established. Such discussions and negotiations would be a matter of public record.

The 51k figure relates to a £450m redevlopment of the existing WHL site which Levy has now said is not viable.

The advantage that Spurs have with the Olympic site Levy said is:"Accusations that we would 'demolish' £500million of stadium are hugely inaccurate and highly irresponsible and I want to be very clear on this issue."Our proposal will retain around £420million worth of the Olympic Stadium, and we will re-use or recycle the £80million that will be dismantled with zero landfill.

Take in naming rights and the cost is minimal - no wonder they are interested.

I think that the battle lines are pretty well drawn now. the question is how transparent will FSG be on this? Redevelopment may offer a quick fix - depending upon its limitations it may also condemn us to decades in the Euro second tier.

The New Anfield will represent a financial risk, it may also guarantee our future for decades to come.The scale of the risk needs to be quantified.

Ourselves,( and Everton) squandered the years when a dockside stadium could have happened.This New Anfield offers us "Free Land" ( albeit at a reputed £300k pa lease to the council). IF, FSG decide to stay at Anfield AND remain around for the forseeable future the Stanley Park opportunity will disappear, unlikely to return. Stanley Park in palnning terms should not be built upon, it was only the (highly debatable and favourable) view that the retention of the Anfield pitch meant that it amounted to a land swap with retention of POS (public open space) which saw it through. If the deal is off, Anfield Plaza does not happen, nor does the associated regeneration. How many other opportunities are likley to come up that are acceptable to the fans? very few. the stakes really are high on this one.

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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #77 on: February 8, 2011, 12:07:41 pm »
Personally I think redevelopment is a tad short-sighted.  Its basically patching up your house and getting 30 40 years out of it, when in reality building a new one would set you up for the next century and a half.

Thats my main concern - hope we dont go down the option of expending Anfield (by no means a cheap option) by a few thousand seats only to realise in 10 years that we still need a new stadium and wasted a load of money in the expansion. If they can get Anfield up to 60k, then I would like to see us stay there.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #78 on: February 8, 2011, 12:29:11 pm »
Thats my main concern - hope we dont go down the option of expending Anfield (by no means a cheap option) by a few thousand seats only to realise in 10 years that we still need a new stadium and wasted a load of money in the expansion. If they can get Anfield up to 60k, then I would like to see us stay there.
Succinctly put. It could be the most expensive £150m we have ever saved. This decision is not just about now, or the next few years, it is about the next 50 years.
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Re: NESV leaning towards a 'new stadium' and facilities
« Reply #79 on: February 8, 2011, 12:32:49 pm »
The Olympic site may be more advantageous but wouldn’t affect the viability or otherwise of the new stadium - it might be better, sure.  But it doesn't change the new stadium business case.

As it is far from certain that they will get the Olympic site, I believe they are playing politics with the Olympic committee. It suits them to present the Olympic stadium as the only viable move. If they don't get the Olympic stadium, I suspect the business case for their own new stadium would suddenly shift (given council concessions of course).

Everything coming out of Spurs is spun to get their hands on the Olympic legacy.