Author Topic: Anfield naming rights worth £100m  (Read 192175 times)

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2011, 12:02:24 am »
This thread is really pretty pointless in any event.  As I understand it, the outcome of that argument is that we would have to spend £200m more to build a shiny, new stadium that would bring in about £60m of naming rights if we were lucky.  That’s such an absolutely marvelous, brilliant, stupendous and earth-shattering idea - somebody'd better tweet that!
Are you the TMOI that was banned?

The modus operandi is identical. Initial comments which are balanced, quite well informed and welcome, that then inexplicably suicidally self destruct in a death dive.

We have no confirmation of what a new stadium will cost now, nor what the value of naming rights may be. I can say that the appointment of Ton Werner, an expert on global media rights means that the options will be professionally sourced.

IF you restricted your position to say that you think that FSG will take the cheapest, least cash hungry risk by developing as we can at Anfield, fearing an inability to fill a larger stadium,whatever the long term consequences, that position is fireproof.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2011, 07:05:02 am »
Are you the TMOI that was banned?

The modus operandi is identical. Initial comments which are balanced, quite well informed and welcome, that then inexplicably suicidally self destruct in a death dive.

We have no confirmation of what a new stadium will cost now, nor what the value of naming rights may be. I can say that the appointment of Ton Werner, an expert on global media rights means that the options will be professionally sourced.

IF you restricted your position to say that you think that FSG will take the cheapest, least cash hungry risk by developing as we can at Anfield, fearing an inability to fill a larger stadium,whatever the long term consequences, that position is fireproof.

So you agree with and like the reasoning but have prejudged and dislike the conclusions (by which you excuse your cheap shots and accusations). Could it just be that your 'conclusions' aren't supported by anything at all or are you just a wind-up?  It seems you prefer to hold on to ignorance ('we don't know yet', 'we must wait for someone to tell us') rather than admit the reasoned and the reasonable.  Since you campaign for the removal of the owners (another wind-up?), it's no stretch to imagine you would prefer a sheik or a mogul to pour money into the club to 'up its value' so they can make a fast buck from the next sheik or mogul while the team dwindles.

And no, I am not TMOI. Are you Hicks?

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 07:20:27 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2011, 07:26:48 am »
This thread is really pretty pointless in any event.  As I understand it, the outcome of that argument is that we would have to spend £200m more to build a shiny, new stadium that would bring in about £60m of naming rights if we were lucky.  That’s such an absolutely marvelous, brilliant, stupendous and earth-shattering idea - somebody'd better tweet that!
The bolded part....if someone had told you LFC were close to getting a shirt sponsoring deal from XXXXXX for up to £20m./year 2 or 3 years ago, you wouldn't have been surprised? I would think £60m. would go a long way to help "finance" a new stadium.

And just curious, but what qualifies you to throw out numbers and be so sure about them? I've read your posts here and on another forum so I thought I'd ask. No offense intended.

Personally, I'd much much prefer a new stadium, but I think we'll stay at Anfield. I don't think FSG can afford a new stadium for a couple of different reasons and my gut feeling is they'll probably add around 10,000 seats over a period of 2 or 3 years.  :(

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2011, 07:39:30 am »
The bolded part....if someone had told you LFC were close to getting a shirt sponsoring deal from XXXXXX for up to £20m./year 2 or 3 years ago, you wouldn't have been surprised? I would think £60m. would go a long way to help "finance" a new stadium.

And just curious, but what qualifies you to throw out numbers and be so sure about them? I've read your posts here and on another forum so I thought I'd ask. No offense intended.

Personally, I'd much much prefer a new stadium, but I think we'll stay at Anfield. I don't think FSG can afford a new stadium for a couple of different reasons and my gut feeling is they'll probably add around 10,000 seats over a period of 2 or 3 years.  :(

None taken. The shirt deal was good but you wouldn’t suggest putting that into the stadium (or naming rights, or transfer fees, or TV income or....).  The £60m is based on other most recent European deals (Emirates and Allianz Arena) but I do think it’s daft to build a new stadium that costs hundreds of millions more to only get back tens of millions on a naming rights deal.

I am as qualified as the next man.  I do research stuff and yes, I am sure of my ground.  If someone doesn’t like the numbers they can contest them line for line if they like - interestingly, no one has.

I think you’re right about the 10,000 and it will be the best thing for us - make us the most competitive and keep a great football ground. I’d rather that than a millstone around our necks


« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 07:45:29 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline scouse29

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2011, 08:20:05 am »
Think its fait to say that there are too many questions we dont have answers for.
The Liverpool way!!!

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2011, 09:09:33 am »
I am as qualified as the next man.  I do research stuff and yes, I am sure of my ground.  If someone doesn’t like the numbers they can contest them line for line if they like - interestingly, no one has.
I have deconstructed each of your arguments.

Your mistake is to assume a conclusion, and work backwards. Your preference for staying put is fine. Your fondness for hanging assumed and invented figures together, and then presenting them as proof is where you err. Just because 2 plus 2 equals four does not equal a new stadium not being the right answer.

You misrepresent the reality, that we do not have sufficient information in the public domain to make a decision, as ignorance.When it is ignorance to assume a conclusion and then try to make the numbers fit. That makes you considerably less qulaified to comment than several of the posters on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 09:39:34 am by xerxes1 »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2011, 09:32:38 am »
I have deconstructed each of your arguments.

Your mistake is to assume a conclusion, and work backwards. Your preference for staying put is fine. Your fondness for hanging assumed and invented figures together, and then presenting them as proof is where you err. Just because 2 plus 2 equals four does not equal a new stadium not being the right answer.

You misrepresent the reality, that we do not have suficient information in the public domain to make a decision, as ignorance.When it is ignorance to assume a consclusion and then try to make the numbers fit. That makes you considerably less qulaified to comment than several of the posters on this thread.


Bunkum.  Give up your childish dreams - and for goodness sake, buy a dictionary.



« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 09:34:40 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2011, 10:53:02 am »
The extent to which naming rights can reduce the financial exposure of the Club is likely to be the largest single determining factor in whether a new stadium is built.

For FSG this is a straightforwards business equation. How does the Club look as an asset, before and after, whatever the "after" is.

Because the value of "re-naming" rights is significantly less than virgin naming rights, that benefit is significantly skewed in favour of a New Anfield, whther it will be enough remains to be seen.
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2011, 04:54:09 pm »
Any chance of telling us how much was paid for the Emirates and Allianz Arena? They would be a much better comparison seeing as Arsenal and Bayern are football teams of a similar reputation to us.Quoting American stadiums (at a yearly premium) isn't really helpful at all, completely different market.
Details of the Allianz sponsorship deal have never been made public, and are some 12 years old now anyway.

The Emirates deal is now five years old. The £100m over fifteen years also incorporated a shirt deal. It got the job done and Arsenal are paying off debt quicker than they had budgeted for- its unwise to draw many conclusions beyond that.

You are right to query the list of American Stadium deals. The only marker is that two naming rights deals at $400m represent the world record. The American domestic market is larger suggesting that a UK domestic deal is likley to be significantly less. However football's reach to the World Marketplace is significantly greater than that of US domestic sport, offering the potential of a larger deal. But to achieve that we would need to be competing on the world stage (CL) regularly.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2011, 10:52:47 pm »
Details of the Allianz sponsorship deal have never been made public, and are some 12 years old now anyway.

The Emirates deal is now five years old. The £100m over fifteen years also incorporated a shirt deal. It got the job done and Arsenal are paying off debt quicker than they had budgeted for- its unwise to draw many conclusions beyond that.

You are right to query the list of American Stadium deals. The only marker is that two naming rights deals at $400m represent the world record. The American domestic market is larger suggesting that a UK domestic deal is likley to be significantly less. However football's reach to the World Marketplace is significantly greater than that of US domestic sport, offering the potential of a larger deal. But to achieve that we would need to be competing on the world stage (CL) regularly.

Oh dear... the Allianz deal was done in 2004 and runs for thirty years at £4m a year. It was still called the FIFA World Cup stadium in 2006. Arsenal is a 15 year deal at about £3.4m a year - neither naming rights nor shirt deal were used to reduce debt. Both deals still current and somewhat less than US$400m... both clubs in the CL.

http://www.ukmediacentre.pwc.com/content/detail.aspx?releaseid=2227&newsareaid=17


« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 10:54:22 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #210 on: February 17, 2011, 11:23:54 pm »
Oh dear... the Allianz deal was done in 2004 and runs for thirty years at £4m a year. It was still called the FIFA World Cup stadium in 2006. Arsenal is a 15 year deal at about £3.4m a year - neither naming rights nor shirt deal were used to reduce debt. Both deals still current and somewhat less than US$400m... both clubs in the CL.
http://www.ukmediacentre.pwc.com/content/detail.aspx?releaseid=2227&newsareaid=17
Dont worry, the Allianz deal was brokered before work started on the stadium in 2000 and signed in 2002, hence the original dates. Its the way you finance stadia. It was called the FiFa World Cup Stadium 2006 for the period of the tournament only - part of the original deal. An easy mistake to make.

You are right to point out that the deal was allegedly worth £120m ( agreed over a decade ago!), I made the point that the details have never been made public. How much was paid upfront ( crucial to front end financing) how much is being paid on the drip, and what inflationary provisions were made (the detail) has never been confirmed.Nonetheless  a similar pro rata deal would pay for half a New Anfield - very nice!

Your Arsenal figures are wrong. The combined shirt and naming rights deal was worth around £100m till 2021. That money has enabled Arsenal to reduce debt in advance of schedule, fact. It is in their annual report( of course I cannot confirm that they were the same £20 notes......).The ambiguity in the Emirates deal is the symbiotic nature  of shirt and naming rights - you cannot split them up even though individual figures have been ascribed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/oct/05/business.marketingandpr


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Offline LiamG

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #211 on: February 18, 2011, 08:12:00 am »
Bayern must have the best sponsorship out of all football clubs, Marketing and sponsorship income alone earned them £67.6 million alone last year, Compare this to our overall commercial income of £75million difference being £12million without Bayern even adding there merchandising sales or Stadia Revenues (Revenues not gate income)

Gate income wise they only get £14million more than us a year with a 60,000 seater!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 08:13:52 am by LiamG »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #212 on: February 18, 2011, 10:05:41 am »
Dont worry, the Allianz deal was brokered before work started on the stadium in 2000 and signed in 2002, hence the original dates. Its the way you finance stadia. It was called the FiFa World Cup Stadium 2006 for the period of the tournament only - part of the original deal. An easy mistake to make.

You are right to point out that the deal was allegedly worth £120m ( agreed over a decade ago!), I made the point that the details have never been made public. How much was paid upfront ( crucial to front end financing) how much is being paid on the drip, and what inflationary provisions were made (the detail) has never been confirmed.Nonetheless  a similar pro rata deal would pay for half a New Anfield - very nice!

Your Arsenal figures are wrong. The combined shirt and naming rights deal was worth around £100m till 2021. That money has enabled Arsenal to reduce debt in advance of schedule, fact. It is in their annual report( of course I cannot confirm that they were the same £20 notes......).The ambiguity in the Emirates deal is the symbiotic nature  of shirt and naming rights - you cannot split them up even though individual figures have been ascribed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/oct/05/business.marketingandpr

No, I’m not worried.  The dates are of interest only to see that the deals are current.  Whenever they were made, I am sure due thought was given to how long they would run and when they would expire.  I am sure it was pretty important.

Headlines figures are nice and boastful, but when you break it down, the figures involved are marginal (peanuts) compared to the construction cost.  £3m or £4m a year is nice (and I would have it) but how much difference does it make to a £400m development - not much. ‘Pro rata’ as much as you like they won’t pay for half a New Anfield and to suggest committing to finance £300m, £400m or £500m when you don’t have to, just to get £4m a year of naming rights is laughable. It's not the driver, it's the cherry on top.  Always has been, always will be.

Naming rights might be useful as guarantees for loans (as at the Emirates) or to spend on anything you like (and not just the stadium as you have said elsewhere) but they’re pretty small beer to tackle a construction debt.

None of which changes the fact that both these clubs are in the Champions League - a so-called prerequisite for glory and riches from naming rights - and fail to get anything like the numbers mentioned.

The Arsenal figures are right. They can be separated from the shirt deal and as you say it has been done but you might as well suggest the shirt deal was used to pay for the stadium as well, or transfer fees or TV rights or... they're all in the accounts too.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 10:18:54 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #213 on: February 18, 2011, 11:27:27 am »
No, I’m not worried.  The dates are of interest only to see that the deals are current.  Whenever they were made, I am sure due thought was given to how long they would run and when they would expire.  I am sure it was pretty important.

Headlines figures are nice and boastful, but when you break it down, the figures involved are marginal (peanuts) compared to the construction cost.  £3m or £4m a year is nice (and I would have it) but how much difference does it make to a £400m development - not much. ‘Pro rata’ as much as you like they won’t pay for half a New Anfield and to suggest committing to finance £300m, £400m or £500m when you don’t have to, just to get £4m a year of naming rights is laughable. It's not the driver, it's the cherry on top.  Always has been, always will be.

Naming rights might be useful as guarantees for loans (as at the Emirates) or to spend on anything you like (and not just the stadium as you have said elsewhere) but they’re pretty small beer to tackle a construction debt.

None of which changes the fact that both these clubs are in the Champions League - a so-called prerequisite for glory and riches from naming rights - and fail to get anything like the numbers mentioned.

The Arsenal figures are right. They can be separated from the shirt deal and as you say it has been done but you might as well suggest the shirt deal was used to pay for the stadium as well, or transfer fees or TV rights or... they're all in the accounts too.

You are right that each naming rights deal is of its time. The record naming rights deal stands at $400m. That will be exceeded at some point- those are givens. That’s about it.

The combination of American owners with expertise in the US markets, their knowledge of the players, and a financial interest in exploiting that, an embryonic naming rights market in Europe, and the rapid growth in the Far East where football is very popular (China is poised to overtake the US in economic muscle) is a potent cocktail. Global sporting deals which dwarf American domestic ones will come.

Our ability to exploit that opportunity is in question. We are not in the CL. We limped out abjectly last year.  We will do very well to qualify this year, and have a team that requires significant further investment to consolidate a CL position if we get there. If I were a global sponsor I would have my doubts.

The Allianz Arena is scheduled to cost for construction around e340m lifetime including finance (sterling exchange rate at the time around 1.6) about £212m. The value of the naming rights is around £120m, or 57% of construction cost. You describe that as peanuts. I describe it as covering more than half and getting on for two thirds of the financial exposure. I am very happy to let others decide which description they think fits 57% best.

The lifetime cost including finance at the Emirates is estimated at around £470m. But it is really a case study on its own. The naming rights and shirt deal slugged £100m into the pot, around 21% of total projected cost. You describe that as small beer. I describe it as significant.


The Guardian article confirmed the Arsenal figures, as I did. The reason why you cannot separate the shirt deal from the naming rights deal, and vice versa, is that both add value to each other. You would be right to point out that the naming rights deal alone, whatever it is, is significantly less than £100m/21%. But the £470m is also over stated because it allows neither for extraordinary payment of debt out of unused transfer funds ( as Wenger has facilitated!) nor does it allow for the profit from the capital receipts from the disposal of the completed Highbury, which are impossible to predict other than that they will be “ a lot”. So an arguable naming rights figure and an unknown finished project cost means that no conclusion can be drawn - other than they got the job done, which has merit in itself.


In summary, and with particular reference to paras two and three. The naming rights potential is enormous, our ability to exploit it uncertain.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #214 on: February 18, 2011, 02:11:47 pm »
You are right that each naming rights deal is of its time. The record naming rights deal stands at $400m. That will be exceeded at some point- those are givens. That’s about it.

The combination of American owners with expertise in the US markets, their knowledge of the players, and a financial interest in exploiting that, an embryonic naming rights market in Europe, and the rapid growth in the Far East where football is very popular (China is poised to overtake the US in economic muscle) is a potent cocktail. Global sporting deals which dwarf American domestic ones will come.

Our ability to exploit that opportunity is in question. We are not in the CL. We limped out abjectly last year.  We will do very well to qualify this year, and have a team that requires significant further investment to consolidate a CL position if we get there. If I were a global sponsor I would have my doubts.

The Allianz Arena is scheduled to cost for construction around e340m lifetime including finance (sterling exchange rate at the time around 1.6) about £212m. The value of the naming rights is around £120m, or 57% of construction cost. You describe that as peanuts. I describe it as covering more than half and getting on for two thirds of the financial exposure. I am very happy to let others decide which description they think fits 57% best.

The lifetime cost including finance at the Emirates is estimated at around £470m. But it is really a case study on its own. The naming rights and shirt deal slugged £100m into the pot, around 21% of total projected cost. You describe that as small beer. I describe it as significant.


The Guardian article confirmed the Arsenal figures, as I did. The reason why you cannot separate the shirt deal from the naming rights deal, and vice versa, is that both add value to each other. You would be right to point out that the naming rights deal alone, whatever it is, is significantly less than £100m/21%. But the £470m is also over stated because it allows neither for extraordinary payment of debt out of unused transfer funds ( as Wenger has facilitated!) nor does it allow for the profit from the capital receipts from the disposal of the completed Highbury, which are impossible to predict other than that they will be “ a lot”. So an arguable naming rights figure and an unknown finished project cost means that no conclusion can be drawn - other than they got the job done, which has merit in itself.


In summary, and with particular reference to paras two and three. The naming rights potential is enormous, our ability to exploit it uncertain.


As for ‘givens’, I can say black is a darker version of white - but to state it without justification, it’s meaningless.

The examples, that you gave, are teams that are in the CL.  As you say, we are not in the CL and yes, I would have my doubts of the value too.

€340m does not equal £212m, so I can assume you have confused the US dollars rate but meant to say about £285m or US$455m.  It would be possible that that did include finance costs, although I would be surprised as I understand the actual construction cost of the stadium alone was in fact US$360m.  Be that as it may, the €340m also quietly ignores the infrastructure costs of €210m, which alone would bump the cost up to €550m or US$746m or £470m.  Council may have paid those infrastructure costs but to try to draw a comparison with Liverpool City Council on this basis is pretty wishful thinking. Nevertheless, naming rights at £120m, as a headline figure and as a lump sum is 'only' about 25% of that, albeit entirely theoretical - I’ve not seen any naming rights as lump sums in the deal and I would have thought it pretty risky PR to go that way.  If they’d spent half as much on a redevelopment, they wouldn’t need to worry about them and still be quids in.  As I have said, there's no point spending more money just so you can get back less as naming rights. Having said that, you could sell naming rights at Anfield but why on earth would you?

As for the Arsenal, you can’t have it both ways.  Even accepting your figure of £470m you can’t say it’s overstated on the one hand because it doesn’t include cross-subsidy from another development (or heaven forbid, from the player transfer budget) and compare naming rights as a percentage to the accordingly ‘reduced’ construction cost on the other.  Sorry to state the bleedin’ obvious but the construction cost is the construction cost and the value of the naming rights is the value of the naming rights.  And for the simple reason that it was not done (perhaps because they were not available as a lump sum), naming rights cannot be compared as a lump sum.  As I've also said (often...) they were used as guarantees for the loans and pretty effective at that.

As you can see - really just so much theoretical bollocks.  The real world doesn’t work that way.  The real world funds a scheme to make it viable at minimum risk.  Naming rights can’t contribute a great deal in that context and are just a bit of bunce on top - nice if you can, no train smash if you can’t.

As to the global market, the potential to benefit from a market that might be getting bigger is, to use your own word, uncertain.  To base decisions on conjecture of unfulfilled potential of uncertain ‘unfillability’, or just plain wishful thinking, is risky, way too risky - particularly when it is not necessary.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 02:53:32 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Kaos AD

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #215 on: February 18, 2011, 03:50:04 pm »
The latest stadium built is Galatasaray's Turk Telekom Arena.

Naming rights:
Stadium name: 6.31 mil. GBP/year x 10 years = 63,1 mil. GBP
North stand: 3.36 mil. GBP /year x 10 years = 33.6 mil GBP (I don't know the length of the deal, but let's assume 10 years)
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 1.23 mil. GBP/year x 10 years = 12.3 mil. GBP (also, I don't know the length of the deal)

Naming rights for 10 years = 109 mil. GBP.

If Galatasaray managed to find a deal like this, I think the global appeal of Liverpool (even if we are not including Tom Werner knowledge) could strike a deal of 100 mil. GBP.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #216 on: February 18, 2011, 05:10:06 pm »
The latest stadium built is Galatasaray's Turk Telekom Arena.

Naming rights:
Stadium name: 6.31 mil. GBP/year x 10 years = 63,1 mil. GBP
North stand: 3.36 mil. GBP /year x 10 years = 33.6 mil GBP (I don't know the length of the deal, but let's assume 10 years)
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 1.23 mil. GBP/year x 10 years = 12.3 mil. GBP (also, I don't know the length of the deal)

Naming rights for 10 years = 109 mil. GBP.

If Galatasaray managed to find a deal like this, I think the global appeal of Liverpool (even if we are not including Tom Werner knowledge) could strike a deal of 100 mil. GBP.


Isn't that actually US$...?  The term is shorter but the headline number is about the going rate.


http://turkeydailynews.com/news/120/ARTICLE/2364/2010-10-28.html


Also not sure if it doesn't include team sponsorship...


http://www.turktelekom.com.tr/tt/portal/About-TT/Sponsorship/




« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 05:15:20 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Kaos AD

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #217 on: February 18, 2011, 05:51:25 pm »
No, GBP not USD or euro. I converted the numbers from euros and USD to GBP.
Yup, I said that I'm not sure how long are lasting the "secondary" deals, but if a deal like that is in place for 3, for 7 or for 2 years, it means the market exists and the rights can be sold somewhere around this price for the years to come.

Also, yes, it includes shirt sponsorship. But if the deals combined are worth 109 mil. GBP and Liverpool are gaining 200 mil. GBP only from shirt sponsorship in 10 years, it is hard to believe they cannot sell naming rights for 100 mil. GBP.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #218 on: February 18, 2011, 06:26:59 pm »
No, GBP not USD or euro. I converted the numbers from euros and USD to GBP.
Yup, I said that I'm not sure how long are lasting the "secondary" deals, but if a deal like that is in place for 3, for 7 or for 2 years, it means the market exists and the rights can be sold somewhere around this price for the years to come.

Also, yes, it includes shirt sponsorship. But if the deals combined are worth 109 mil. GBP and Liverpool are gaining 200 mil. GBP only from shirt sponsorship in 10 years, it is hard to believe they cannot sell naming rights for 100 mil. GBP.

From that article (Turkish Daily News, 2010)...

"Türk Telekom Arena will be the new home of Galatasaray, replacing the old Ali Sami Yen Stadium located in Mecidiyeköy, a central neighborhood in Istanbul. The naming rights of the stadium have been sold to Türk Telekom for a period of 10 year for nearly $10.5 million a year"   

And this - Shirt Sponsorship website (2008)...

"Galatasaray signed a 5-year sponsorship deal worth $40 million with Türk Telekom, a Turkish telecommunications company.
The deal, signed Tuesday, will go through at the start of the 09-10 season and will include the naming rights to the Turkcell Super League champion's new stadium in Istanbul's Seyrantepe district"

??




« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 06:40:39 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Kaos AD

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #219 on: February 18, 2011, 07:07:54 pm »
The article from 2008 is written BEFORE the signing of the deal and it looks to me like a guessing article. The one from 2010 is correct.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #220 on: February 18, 2011, 07:26:57 pm »
The article from 2008 is written BEFORE the signing of the deal and it looks to me like a guessing article. The one from 2010 is correct.

I assumed the 2008 article is just for shirts (a shirt sponsorship site after all - although it's not clear from the text what the stadium naming rights are, the implication would be US$6m/£3.75m a year).  There's a couple of other places that mention a total deal of US$10m.


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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #221 on: February 19, 2011, 08:21:10 am »
So now, looking at Galata deal, it seems likely to you that Liverpool is able to raise 100 mil. GBP by sellling the naming rights?

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #222 on: February 19, 2011, 09:52:30 am »
So now, looking at Galata deal, it seems likely to you that Liverpool is able to raise 100 mil. GBP by sellling the naming rights?

I would say that is easily achievable over a ten year period. We get 20m for the shirts a year.
The Liverpool way!!!

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #223 on: February 19, 2011, 10:30:47 am »
So now, looking at Galata deal, it seems likely to you that Liverpool is able to raise 100 mil. GBP by sellling the naming rights?

If the Galatasary deal is £37.5m for stadium naming rights - no, I don't. 

If anything the shirts generally seem to be as lucrative or only slightly less than the stadium (presumably because they're seen all the time on TV, in the press).  Having said that the Galata deal is still 'only' £60m with shirts, so no again.





« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:07:31 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #224 on: February 19, 2011, 12:44:03 pm »
If the Galatasary deal is £37.5m for stadium naming rights - no, I don't. 

If anything the shirts generally seem to be as lucrative or slightly more than the stadium (presumably because they're seen all the time on TV, in the press).  Having said that the Galata deal is still 'only' £60m with shirts, so no again.

How did you calculate these numbers? I just showed you that the Galata deal is 109 mil. GBP for 10 years, and if you exclude the 24.7 mil. GBP for the shirt sponsorship, still remains 84.3 mil. GBP.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #225 on: February 19, 2011, 12:56:53 pm »
How did you calculate these numbers? I just showed you that the Galata deal is 109 mil. GBP for 10 years, and if you exclude the 24.7 mil. GBP for the shirt sponsorship, still remains 84.3 mil. GBP.

It seems the deal you quoted was in USD, not GBP.  As far as I can see from the three or four separate sources, the Galata deal is USD105m (including shirts) or about GBP60m, not GBP109m.  Excluding shirts (by taking the numbers from the shirt sponsor site) is about GBP37.5m for stadium naming rights or more importantly about £3.75m a year.

Assuming you put that in the stadium 'pot', you'd save about £225,000 a year on the debt bill - or about two weeks' wages for Steven Gerrard.







« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:25:41 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #226 on: February 19, 2011, 03:58:12 pm »
OK, if you don't want to take in account the ENTIRE naming rights deal just to suit your agenda, it's your problem.
You "forgot" to add the north and east stands naming rights deals, which, combined, value 4.6 mil. GBP / year.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #227 on: February 19, 2011, 06:59:15 pm »
OK, if you don't want to take in account the ENTIRE naming rights deal just to suit your agenda, it's your problem.
You "forgot" to add the north and east stands naming rights deals, which, combined, value 4.6 mil. GBP / year.


Maybe you're blinded, maybe clutching at straws - I don't know.  But I'm not.  I had a good look at what you posted.  Did a bit of looking on the net and queried it with you.  Maybe you had different information.  Maybe you made a mistake.  I gave you ample opportunity to clarify or check. 

You brought the deal up. I didn't. But based on the info found (which I gave you links to, so you had a chance to look), the total deal that you brought up is USD10.5m for 10 years.  If you've got better information - let's have it.

It seems if you have a firm opinion (that you don't like) having looked at the information available and you state it plainly and openly, it's immediately assumed you have an agenda.

If you disagree, maybe it would be better just to say so rather than accusing me of being dishonest.


Disappointing.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 08:58:22 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #228 on: February 19, 2011, 10:06:43 pm »
I gave you the deals in my first post. Look here again: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=187468.msg8235580#msg8235580

So, let's repeat again for the lazy students:

Galata's naming rights:
Stadium name without the shirt sponsorship (let's say that article, which is based on nothing, is true): 3.84 mil. GBP/year
North stand: 3.36 mil. GBP /year
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 1.23 mil. GBP/year

Total: 8.43 mil. GBP / year
10 year time sponsorship = 84.3 mil. GBP

Shirt sponsorship deal: 4.94 mil. GBP / year

Liverpool's shirt sponsorship deal: 20 mil.GBP / year

So, for the ones who passed with success the 4th grade, if a team has a shirt sponsorship which values 4 times more than the other, and if the latter manages to sell the naming rights with 8.43 mil. GBP / year, it is pretty much obvious that the chances for the first to sell the naming rights with 10 mil. GBP / year are pretty high.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #229 on: February 19, 2011, 10:28:38 pm »
I gave you the deals in my first post. Look here again: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=187468.msg8235580#msg8235580

So, let's repeat again for the lazy students:

Galata's naming rights:
Stadium name without the shirt sponsorship (let's say that article, which is based on nothing, is true): 3.84 mil. GBP/year
North stand: 3.36 mil. GBP /year
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 1.23 mil. GBP/year

Total: 8.43 mil. GBP / year
10 year time sponsorship = 84.3 mil. GBP

Shirt sponsorship deal: 4.94 mil. GBP / year

Liverpool's shirt sponsorship deal: 20 mil.GBP / year

So, for the ones who passed with success the 4th grade, if a team has a shirt sponsorship which values 4 times more than the other, and if the latter manages to sell the naming rights with 8.43 mil. GBP / year, it is pretty much obvious that the chances for the first to sell the naming rights with 10 mil. GBP / year are pretty high.


Yes mate but for us thickos every reference for the Galata deal gives the figures in USD not GBP, so unless you've got sources to the contrary all of your figures are out by a factor of 1.6 (roughly).

Mind you, if the references are wrong I've only mentioned it three times and asked you at least once, so it's not like you haven't had a chance to put us straight.




« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 10:43:24 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #230 on: February 19, 2011, 11:50:30 pm »

The examples, that you gave, are teams that are in the CL.  As you say, we are not in the CL and yes, I would have my doubts of the value too.

€340m does not equal £212m, so I can assume you have confused the US dollars rate but meant to say about £285m or US$455m.  It would be possible that that did include finance costs, although I would be surprised as I understand the actual construction cost of the stadium alone was in fact US$360m.  Be that as it may, the €340m also quietly ignores the infrastructure costs of €210m, which alone would bump the cost up to €550m or US$746m or £470m.  Council may have paid those infrastructure costs but to try to draw a comparison with Liverpool City Council on this basis is pretty wishful thinking. Nevertheless, naming rights at £120m, as a headline figure and as a lump sum is 'only' about 25% of that, albeit entirely theoretical - I’ve not seen any naming rights as lump sums in the deal and I would have thought it pretty risky PR to go that way.  If they’d spent half as much on a redevelopment, they wouldn’t need to worry about them and still be quids in.  As I have said, there's no point spending more money just so you can get back less as naming rights. Having said that, you could sell naming rights at Anfield but why on earth would you?

As for the Arsenal, you can’t have it both ways.  Even accepting your figure of £470m you can’t say it’s overstated on the one hand because it doesn’t include cross-subsidy from another development (or heaven forbid, from the player transfer budget) and compare naming rights as a percentage to the accordingly ‘reduced’ construction cost on the other.  Sorry to state the bleedin’ obvious but the construction cost is the construction cost and the value of the naming rights is the value of the naming rights.  And for the simple reason that it was not done (perhaps because they were not available as a lump sum), naming rights cannot be compared as a lump sum.  As I've also said (often...) they were used as guarantees for the loans and pretty effective at that.

As you can see - really just so much theoretical bollocks.  The real world doesn’t work that way.  The real world funds a scheme to make it viable at minimum risk.  Naming rights can’t contribute a great deal in that context and are just a bit of bunce on top - nice if you can, no train smash if you can’t.

As to the global market, the potential to benefit from a market that might be getting bigger is, to use your own word, uncertain.  To base decisions on conjecture of unfulfilled potential of uncertain ‘unfillability’, or just plain wishful thinking, is risky, way too risky - particularly when it is not necessary.
If you cannot acknowledge the existence of  record naming rights deals, or the fact that it will be broken, and dismiss this as meaningless- none of us can help you anymore.

 340m euros does equal £212m at the then prevailing exchange rate. You couldn’t even be bothered to read what you are disputing. The infra structure costs were part of the World Cup bid and so are excluded.

As for the Arsenal stadium all that any of us ask is that you understand it.

I suggest that in future you just say " I dont want a new stadium", fair enough.Continually inventing figures, ignoring figures, and presenting proofs which aren't ,serve only to damge a case  which, in the hands of others, could be put quite credibly.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:59:46 pm by xerxes1 »
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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #231 on: February 20, 2011, 12:56:27 pm »
If you cannot acknowledge the existence of  record naming rights deals, or the fact that it will be broken, and dismiss this as meaningless- none of us can help you anymore.

 340m euros does equal £212m at the then prevailing exchange rate. You couldn’t even be bothered to read what you are disputing. The infra structure costs were part of the World Cup bid and so are excluded.

As for the Arsenal stadium all that any of us ask is that you understand it.

I suggest that in future you just say " I dont want a new stadium", fair enough.Continually inventing figures, ignoring figures, and presenting proofs which aren't ,serve only to damge a case  which, in the hands of others, could be put quite credibly.

Accepting the then prevailing rates would make your case weaker. It’s pretty hard to substantiate US$340m as the total cost including finance when the construction cost was higher - US$360m. Perhaps the US$360m is incorrect or you have confused the numbers all round?

No matter, and in plain English, it’s daft to spend a load of money on a new stadium to get relatively little in for naming rights.  It would be better to spend a hell of a lot less and not bother with naming rights or to simply make money on the Anfield brand as it is.

If you don’t mind, this time I will ignore your provocative comments about inventing, ignoring, infrastructure and the Emirates as I’ve answered them already elsewhere (several times...).


Where you have a fixed idea of the usefulness of naming rights, I would be happy to hear a convincing argument for them because it would add to the overall picture.  Clearly I’m not the one to draw one out of you. Nevertheless, it’s interesting to note that you now concede there is a strong case for redevelopment (although you’ve since watered it down in an edit)

« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 03:13:43 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #232 on: February 20, 2011, 08:25:37 pm »

Yes mate but for us thickos every reference for the Galata deal gives the figures in USD not GBP, so unless you've got sources to the contrary all of your figures are out by a factor of 1.6 (roughly).

Mind you, if the references are wrong I've only mentioned it three times and asked you at least once, so it's not like you haven't had a chance to put us straight.
Goddamit, I told you already many times that I converted the euros and USD deals in GBP. And not at 1 on 1 :), but at the market value.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #233 on: February 20, 2011, 08:32:52 pm »
If you cannot acknowledge the existence of  record naming rights deals, or the fact that it will be broken, and dismiss this as meaningless- none of us can help you anymore.

 340m euros does equal £212m at the then prevailing exchange rate. You couldn’t even be bothered to read what you are disputing. The infra structure costs were part of the World Cup bid and so are excluded.

As for the Arsenal stadium all that any of us ask is that you understand it.

I suggest that in future you just say " I dont want a new stadium", fair enough.Continually inventing figures, ignoring figures, and presenting proofs which aren't ,serve only to damge a case  which, in the hands of others, could be put quite credibly.

I guess that if a sponsor will come and say "I will build with my own money a new 70.000 seats stadium, in exchange of a 30 years naming rights deal", Peter will come and argue that we don't need to "pawn" our future for such a long period, because the maintenance cost of such a big arena will be higher than the cost of a redeveloped Anfield.

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #234 on: February 20, 2011, 08:45:25 pm »
I guess that if a sponsor will come and say "I will build with my own money a new 70.000 seats stadium, in exchange of a 30 years naming rights deal", Peter will come and argue that we don't need to "pawn" our future for such a long period, because the maintenance cost of such a big arena will be higher than the cost of a redeveloped Anfield.
Because 2 plus 2 equals four, that is certainly the case.

And that is not taking into account the massive cost of accepting the money to build the stadium either- which would certainly cripple us.

A temporary corner stand betwen the Kop and the main stand, a tea stall underneath perhaps ( selling peanuts as well obviously) that must be the way forwards.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 08:48:33 pm by xerxes1 »
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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #235 on: February 20, 2011, 09:18:41 pm »
Goddamit, I told you already many times that I converted the euros and USD deals in GBP. And not at 1 on 1 :), but at the market value.

Yes, and I've told you several times that the figures you have calculated are not the same as the figures in three or four references, so unless all of these articles are wrong or you have better information, you have made a mistake!




« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 09:24:01 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #236 on: February 20, 2011, 09:23:08 pm »
I guess that if a sponsor will come and say "I will build with my own money a new 70.000 seats stadium, in exchange of a 30 years naming rights deal", Peter will come and argue that we don't need to "pawn" our future for such a long period, because the maintenance cost of such a big arena will be higher than the cost of a redeveloped Anfield.

Oh look, there's a white rabbit...

Because 2 plus 2 equals four, that is certainly the case.

And that is not taking into account the massive cost of accepting the money to build the stadium either- which would certainly cripple us.

A temporary corner stand betwen the Kop and the main stand, a tea stall underneath perhaps ( selling peanuts as well obviously) that must be the way forwards.

...and a dormouse.


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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #237 on: February 21, 2011, 06:42:05 am »
Yes, and I've told you several times that the figures you have calculated are not the same as the figures in three or four references, so unless all of these articles are wrong or you have better information, you have made a mistake!

OK... Here we go again. I will put, for the last time, the numbers in USD and euros, and after that I will "translate" especially for you in GBP.
So: Galatasaray's naming rights:
Stadium: 102.5 mil. USD for 10 years. I'll deduct for you the supposed 40 mil. USD for shirt sponsorship. It remains 62.5 mil. USD for 10 years or 6.25 mil. USD / year. This, "translated" in GBP, as I said, especially for you, represent 3.86 mil. GBP / year.
North stand: 4 mil. EUR / year = 3.36 mil. GBP / year
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 2 mil. USD / year = 1.23 mil. GBP / year.

Now, of course, just for you, let's add those numbers: 3.86 + 3.36 + 1.23 = 8.45 mil. GBP / year.

Shirt sponsorhip deals: Galata: 8 mil. USD / year = 4.94 mi. GBP / year. Liverpool: 20 mil. GBP / year.

Now, a bit of 5th grade mathematics: if Liverpool's shirt sponsorship deal is 4.048 times bigger than Galata's shirt sponsorship deal, and Galata's naming rights worth 8.45 mil. GBP / year, how big is the mathematical probability for Liverpool to acquire a 10 mil. GBP / year naming rights deal, just 1.18 bigger than Galata's similar deal?

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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #238 on: February 21, 2011, 09:55:54 am »
OK... Here we go again. I will put, for the last time, the numbers in USD and euros, and after that I will "translate" especially for you in GBP.
So: Galatasaray's naming rights:
Stadium: 102.5 mil. USD for 10 years. I'll deduct for you the supposed 40 mil. USD for shirt sponsorship. It remains 62.5 mil. USD for 10 years or 6.25 mil. USD / year. This, "translated" in GBP, as I said, especially for you, represent 3.86 mil. GBP / year.
North stand: 4 mil. EUR / year = 3.36 mil. GBP / year
East stand (just the 2nd floor): 2 mil. USD / year = 1.23 mil. GBP / year.

Now, of course, just for you, let's add those numbers: 3.86 + 3.36 + 1.23 = 8.45 mil. GBP / year.

Shirt sponsorhip deals: Galata: 8 mil. USD / year = 4.94 mi. GBP / year. Liverpool: 20 mil. GBP / year.

Now, a bit of 5th grade mathematics: if Liverpool's shirt sponsorship deal is 4.048 times bigger than Galata's shirt sponsorship deal, and Galata's naming rights worth 8.45 mil. GBP / year, how big is the mathematical probability for Liverpool to acquire a 10 mil. GBP / year naming rights deal, just 1.18 bigger than Galata's similar deal?
I have spotted your mistake here Kaos. Whatever the sum, however simple or complex the equation, the answer is always that naming rights equals peanuts.

This is the key naming rights graph:
http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=peanuts

You have also shamefully ignored the "naming rights" value of "Pete's Cafe", the tea bar under the temporary stand in the corner between the Kop and Main Stand.Pukka Pies would certainly offer a bakers dozen in return for their logo being placed in the corner of a plastic banner.I bet Gala dont have that!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 10:06:37 am by xerxes1 »
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Re: Anfield naming rights worth £100m
« Reply #239 on: February 21, 2011, 01:06:25 pm »
I have spotted your mistake here Kaos. Whatever the sum, however simple or complex the equation, the answer is always that naming rights equals peanuts.

This is the key naming rights graph:
http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=peanuts

You have also shamefully ignored the "naming rights" value of "Pete's Cafe", the tea bar under the temporary stand in the corner between the Kop and Main Stand.Pukka Pies would certainly offer a bakers dozen in return for their logo being placed in the corner of a plastic banner.I bet Gala dont have that!

The value of peanuts increased with almost 33% in the last 6 months. Terrific news.