Topic: 70,000 seats my arse

[Tiger Tony]

I think the important thing to remember with season tickets and the waiting list is that the uptake would be quite low when moving to a new stadium. I believe Arsenal's uptake for season tickets at the Emirates, off the waiting list, during the last season at Highbury when they were contacting everyone was around 23-26%. They found that a lot of people had changed address and/or contact details and they couldn't get hold of them. Also a lot of people's financial situation etc had changed i.e. seats on offer were too pricey compared to when they first went on the list, they simply weren't bothered anymore, or they now had kids and a mortgage etc so couldn't afford it. In the end pretty much everyone who wanted one got one I think for the opening of the Emirates. The list has since gone back up, but on that basis, I am quite adamant that our current waiting list would be pretty much wiped out as and when a new stadium is opened. Although like Arsenal, I would expect it to grow very quickly again.

[OohCampione]

Except that 55,000 at £40 brings in higher gate receipts than 73,000 at £30.

By £10k Mr pedantic

If the exytra 18,000 spent more than an average of 56p we would be better off

[Red_Mist]

By £10k Mr pedantic

Hey don't knock it, we could do a lot with that £10K!

[redprodigal]

Out of curiosity, how well did West Ham sell their allocation on Monday?

It said about 1500 sold so that's half of the maximum they could ask for.

[redprodigal]

And, crucially Man U and Arsenal are challenging for the title. We are not.

The most important factor. Does anyone really think that the Mancs would get a full house on a Monday night if they were out of the running and had spent the season watching the dross we have this last 8 months. Not saying they would have as small a crowd as us but believe me, even they would not be turning up in the numbers they are used to if they'd been through what we have.

[redprodigal]

I think the important thing to remember with season tickets and the waiting list is that the uptake would be quite low when moving to a new stadium. I believe Arsenal's uptake for season tickets at the Emirates, off the waiting list, during the last season at Highbury when they were contacting everyone was around 23-26%. They found that a lot of people had changed address and/or contact details and they couldn't get hold of them. Also a lot of people's financial situation etc had changed i.e. seats on offer were too pricey compared to when they first went on the list, they simply weren't bothered anymore, or they now had kids and a mortgage etc so couldn't afford it. In the end pretty much everyone who wanted one got one I think for the opening of the Emirates. The list has since gone back up, but on that basis, I am quite adamant that our current waiting list would be pretty much wiped out as and when a new stadium is opened. Although like Arsenal, I would expect it to grow very quickly again.

Correct. And another thing is that the demand for seasies is so great with us because it guarantees you a ticket which is otherwise very difficult to get, but if we had a 73000 capacity loads would not bother because they could just buy a ticket for any game they wanted to go to, without forking out the large amount at the beginning of the season.

[redprodigal]

I agree, just not sure how many there are. A lot of other things competing for people's attention these days, and a lot more games on the TV. Surely this mass of "don't bother trying cos it'll be sold out" would've worked out that the West Ham game was a great chance to go? Where were they? West Ham, whilst not in the top tier, is still a relatively attractive fixture and we're still in there battling for a Europa League place, with Everton breathing down our necks.

Mate, I think you're being a bit naive there. I honestly believe there are thousands of these type of fans out there who would love to go to a match. It's just that this game on a Monday night at the end of the season when we are as good as out of the running for fourth place is not an attractive fixture at all. Take into account our league position, our poor form and the lack of excitement we are producing on the pitch due to the many reasons discussed elsewhere on this forum and you should come to that conclusion too.
I honestly believe that there are many more of these fans than many people think. I'm not saying that a large stadium will be full every midweek game but if we get the investment for the right players that will help us challenge at the top, the ground will be full for most weekend games and some of the top midweek games also.
I live in a small town out in the sticks and I often get asked by lads who would love to just pick up a phone or go online anytime of the day and get the odd ticket for themselves and their kids or girlfriends, but they wouldn't even think of it at the moment because of the difficulty in getting tickets. Can you imagine how many of these types there are all over the country and throughout Europe who would do this if it was easy for them?
I'm not saying that these are the type of fans we would want in an ideal world,  but if we got 50,000 genuine fans and 20,000 trippers would anyone complain?
Let's face it, we're never going to get a full house of hardcore fans but I think most weekend games would be sold out or very near if the team was successful.
Don't forget also that this would open the doors for loads of local lads who also don't really go out of their way to get tickets at the moment.

[gazzathered]

How much do people think its the way weve been playing thats got something to do with it. I travelled five hours by coach for the 0-0 with Fulham and then got back at 2300 hours on a sunday. I was pi**ed off with our attacking play and its been the same all season. I wanted to come up to the West Ham game until i knew it was a monday and thought about that journey and our tactics.

[RJH]

I don't think that's an excuse. These are the high, low and average League attendances for the top eight clubs by attendance. If we're saying that travel problems and work have that much impact on us, why doesn't it affect United and Arsenal in the same way?


Team                High      Low      Ave
Man Utd             75217    73709    74814
Arsenal             60103    59084    59911
Man City            47348    40292    45309
Liverpool           44392    37697    42779
Chelsea             41836    40137    41449
Sunderland          47327    34821    39950
Aston Villa         42788    32917    38135
Everton             39652    32163    36674
Tottenham           36041    35318    35791

A small point, but don't a lot of the clubs, unlike Liverpool, base their attendances on tickets sold, rather than the numbers who actually turn up?
Obviously from a revenue point of view, it doesn't make a difference.
But it may look Liverpool's figures look slightly worse than they would do if the comparison was truly like for like. That said, I think the lowest attendance would still be significantly lower (in percentage terms) than the other top sides.

[Alan_X]

A small point, but don't a lot of the clubs, unlike Liverpool, base their attendances on tickets sold, rather than the numbers who actually turn up?
Obviously from a revenue point of view, it doesn't make a difference.
But it may look Liverpool's figures look slightly worse than they would do if the comparison was truly like for like. That said, I think the lowest attendance would still be significantly lower (in percentage terms) than the other top sides.

It's true - Arsenal use tickets sold but as you say, from a revenue point of view it doesn't make any difference.

[Alan_X]

Mate, I think you're being a bit naive there. I honestly believe there are thousands of these type of fans out there who would love to go to a match. It's just that this game on a Monday night at the end of the season when we are as good as out of the running for fourth place is not an attractive fixture at all. Take into account our league position, our poor form and the lack of excitement we are producing on the pitch due to the many reasons discussed elsewhere on this forum and you should come to that conclusion too.
I honestly believe that there are many more of these fans than many people think. I'm not saying that a large stadium will be full every midweek game but if we get the investment for the right players that will help us challenge at the top, the ground will be full for most weekend games and some of the top midweek games also.
I live in a small town out in the sticks and I often get asked by lads who would love to just pick up a phone or go online anytime of the day and get the odd ticket for themselves and their kids or girlfriends, but they wouldn't even think of it at the moment because of the difficulty in getting tickets. Can you imagine how many of these types there are all over the country and throughout Europe who would do this if it was easy for them?
I'm not saying that these are the type of fans we would want in an ideal world,  but if we got 50,000 genuine fans and 20,000 trippers would anyone complain?
Let's face it, we're never going to get a full house of hardcore fans but I think most weekend games would be sold out or very near if the team was successful.
Don't forget also that this would open the doors for loads of local lads who also don't really go out of their way to get tickets at the moment.

You say if we get the right investment in players we can fill the stadium... isn't the point of the stadium to provide funds for the players?

I doubt if there's a core support anywhere near 50,000 - probably nearer 35,000 who would follow the team even in mid-table or god forbid the Championship. The non-glory hunters who'd pay to see Liverpool through thick and thin.

As for thousands of local lads who want a ticket - where were they on Monday night?

On a general point. This is a list of the top clubs by attendance around Europe in 2008-09 - only 5 have attendances around the 70,000 mark. No question we need a bigger stadium but I don't see us achieving the dominance (not just occassional success) required to push us up to that level or having the fanaticism of the Dortmund faithful. I'll say it until I'm blue in teh face. Build a 60,000 seater and expand if we need it later like any other club.

1    Manchester United    75,304    Old Trafford                 
2    Real Madrid          74,895    Santiago Bernabéu Stadium     
3    Barcelona            73,913    Camp Nou     
4    Borussia Dortmund    73,802    Westfalenstadion     
5    Bayern Munich        69,622    Allianz Arena     
6    Schalke 04           61,361    Arena Auf Schalke     
7    Arsenal              60,040    Emirates Stadium     
8    Internazionale       60,019    San Siro     
9    Celtic               57,066    Celtic Park     
10    Milan               55,185    San Siro     
11    Hamburg             54,744    HSH Nordbank Arena     
12    Marseille           52,376    Stade Vélodrome     
13    Stuttgart           51,340    Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion     
14    Hertha BSC          49,695    Olympic Stadium     
15    Rangers             49,533    Ibrox Stadium     
16    Köln                49,312    RheinEnergieStadion     
17    Ajax                49,014    Amsterdam ArenA     
18    Newcastle United    48,750    St James' Park     
19    Borussia MG         47,376    Borussia-Park     
20    Eintracht Frankfurt 47,012    Commerzbank-Arena     
21    Atlético Madrid     44,605    Estadio Vicente Calderón     
22    Feyenoord           44,015    De Kuip     
23    Liverpool           43,611    Anfield     
24    Manchester City     42,899    City of Manchester Stadium     
25    Hannover 96         41,860    AWD-Arena     

[Red_Mist]

No question we need a bigger stadium but I don't see us achieving the dominance (not just occassional success) required to push us up to that level or having the fanaticism of the Dortmund faithful. I'll say it until I'm blue in teh face. Build a 60,000 seater and expand if we need it later like any other club.

Alan - Correct, we would need dominance (highly unlikely) or fananticism (debatable) or lower prices (forget it!) to fill a 70,000 seater stadium on a regular basis. Although, as I've said, I'd love to see us redevelop Anfield (or at least consider the idea again), there are certain arguments in favour of a new stadium that I just can't counter. So if we do have to have a new stadium, I'd agree entirely with the 60K option with possibilities to expand (you're Man Utd example of expansion, success, further expansion was spot on).

By the way, that Dortmund figure is astonishing. Never realised. Have they expanded since the Alaves final cos it didn't look that size then? Be interesting to see if they start to sit at the 'top table' more often in the coming years if they keep that up, although I would guess the gates receipts are still much lower than, say, Arsenal.

Redprodigal - Yes, I could be naive, v.true mate. But I was there in the early 80's at the peak of our powers & remember some dismal attendances. All I can do is repeat that I hope to be proved completely wrong & see any new stadium full most of the time, including mondays. Would be great to see.

[campioni]

The club needs to be looking at these issues before deciding on whether we're gonna have a 60,000 or 70,000 stadium. I really hope they are not looking at the 65,000 on the season ticket waiting list and thinking it will be easy to fill a 70k stadium. I would imagine a lot of people on that waiting list would not take a ST if it was offered to them. As said above, peoples situation change and some have been on the list for over 10 years. To expect everyone to still be in a situation where they would be willing to take on a ST is nuts.

If / when the new owners come in and the chances of the new stadium being built look more positive, i think the club should be contacting everyone on the list to find out who still wants a season ticket. It may not give a completely accurate figure but it would give them a rough idea of what they are working with.

If we are gonna go with a 70k stadium then i reckon we will need an extra 15-20k ST holders on top of the current 27k to make it worthwhile. That might sound easy but i wouldn't be surprised if we couldn't get 20k people to commit to a ST every year.

The pricing structure will also have to be looked at carefully. I agree that ticket prices will have to be tiered but i'm not sure we should follow the example of other euroean clubs like real madrid who price their tickets depending on where you want to sit in the stadium. As far as i know madrid charge more money for seats closer to the half way line (better spec), where you can pay well over €100 for a league game or closer to €30 if you want to sit behind the goal in the top tier. I'm not sure this would work at liverpool and for some games we could end up with a lot of seats empty in the middle of the stadium.

I think it would be better to keep a pricing structure based on the opposition like we currently have with category A and category B games. But it might be possible to break that down even further to category A, B and C and have a greater price differential for each category, rather than just £2 difference.

[OohCampione]

The club has set an objective of 73k. Their design brief is for 73k and the designs for the infrastructure is for 73k. I don't think we'll blow another £x million on redesigning.

[west_london_red]

The club has set an objective of 73k. Their design brief is for 73k and the designs for the infrastructure is for 73k. I don't think we'll blow another £x million on redesigning.

I suspect any new owner might at least consider another design, which would be the 4th time. The current G&H design for 73,000 was done when the team was doing a lot better then it currently is (Istanbul and Athens were fresh in the memory) so what ever study they did to come at the 73,000 figure will need to carried out again I guess.

[campioni]

The club has set an objective of 73k. Their design brief is for 73k and the designs for the infrastructure is for 73k. I don't think we'll blow another £x million on redesigning.

What's to say the new owners will accept the plans for the new stadium as they are?

And wouldn't it be better to spend a few million on redesigns to get a stadium that suits our needs rather than spending millions more and having thousands of seats we don't need?

[SP]

It's all a bit premature trying to second guess the owners before we know who they are.

Depending on who buys us, I can either see them doing the kind of exercise we have done in this topic and trying to deliver maximum value for money with incremental size increases, or it being a huge vanity project whereupon 73,000 will be the minimum benchmark as they don't want to dip below the previous regime.

[Alan_X]

The club has set an objective of 73k. Their design brief is for 73k and the designs for the infrastructure is for 73k. I don't think we'll blow another £x million on redesigning.

The club had a brief for a 60,000 seater stadium. Tom Hicks decided to go for a 73,000 seater (he actually suggested we should build the biggest ground in England) based on nothing but his over-inflated ego and greed. I've said my piece on the design elsewhere but this is basic common sense.

We should be building a modified version of the AFL design in my opinion. It was called the Parry Bowl by people but it's actually a perfectly good stadium. The HKS design was the wasted money - crap design and over-priced. Building it would just be throwing good money after bad.

[Alan_X]

The club has set an objective of 73k. Their design brief is for 73k and the designs for the infrastructure is for 73k. I don't think we'll blow another £x million on redesigning.

And by the way - the infrastructure improvements to go up to 73K are not designed, which is why we'd be building a 73,000 seater stadium with a half-finished "Annie Road" end. Still maybe we could paint a big picture of the crowd like Arsenal did at Highbury. I'm sure the team will love playing towards a stand that wouldn't look out of place in the Blue Square Premier League for one half of every game.

You know how teams sometimes make us play the "wrong way" when they win the toss. Just imagine the end of the Olympiakos game and Steven Gerrard lining up a shot to win the game but instead of 18,000 passionate fans going mental behind the goal there are just 3,000 away fans.

[redprodigal]

You say if we get the right investment in players we can fill the stadium... isn't the point of the stadium to provide funds for the players?

Yes, but we need the initial investment to buy the quality needed to get us up to the level that would guarantee a full house. This would come if we get the right owners to invest in the team and the stadium. Once the stadium is built then it would provide funds for future transfers

I doubt if there's a core support anywhere near 50,000 - probably nearer 35,000 who would follow the team even in mid-table or god forbid the Championship. The non-glory hunters who'd pay to see Liverpool through thick and thin.

Correct, but if we got the investment to give us the quality we all want, we would not be relying on the core support that follows us through thick and thin. We would be relying on the much larger fanbase that would be following a more entertaning, more successful team

As for thousands of local lads who want a ticket - where were they on Monday night?

As mentioned before, not even locals want to go and see a struggling, boring team for a Monday night league match when we are out of the running even for fourth place. Their attitude would change dramatically if we played with more quality and were challenging for the league every year, which the investment would surely bring

[OohCampione]

The club had a brief for a 60,000 seater stadium. Tom Hicks decided to go for a 73,000 seater (he actually suggested we should build the biggest ground in England) based on nothing but his over-inflated ego and greed. I've said my piece on the design elsewhere but this is basic common sense.

We should be building a modified version of the AFL design in my opinion. It was called the Parry Bowl by people but it's actually a perfectly good stadium. The HKS design was the wasted money - crap design and over-priced. Building it would just be throwing good money after bad.

And by the way - the infrastructure improvements to go up to 73K are not designed, which is why we'd be building a 73,000 seater stadium with a half-finished "Annie Road" end. Still maybe we could paint a big picture of the crowd like Arsenal did at Highbury. I'm sure the team will love playing towards a stand that wouldn't look out of place in the Blue Square Premier League for one half of every game.

You know how teams sometimes make us play the "wrong way" when they win the toss. Just imagine the end of the Olympiakos game and Steven Gerrard lining up a shot to win the game but instead of 18,000 passionate fans going mental behind the goal there are just 3,000 away fans.

I don't actually disagree with the points you are making Alan, just that if things are that far down the line, it would be pouring money down the drain to change it again. I am aware that this cost could be off set by the 'reduced' version being cheaper to build, but I assume the current design will be considered when prospective investors/buyers tally future revenue.
As I am no economic wiz, could you tell me if this would be the case

[redprodigal]

We should be building a modified version of the AFL design in my opinion. It was called the Parry Bowl by people but it's actually a perfectly good stadium.

Can't agree. If we do manage to get new owners that are willing to build, then build something different, something unique to us. Too many soulless bowls around and this was just another. The Parry bowl should be a last resort. Remember, this will be with us for a lifetime so let's get it right.

[west_london_red]

Can't agree. If we do manage to get new owners that are willing to build, then build something different, something unique to us. Too many soulless bowls around and this was just another. The Parry bowl should be a last resort. Remember, this will be with us for a lifetime so let's get it right.

The current design tried to be different and it looks horrid. Cant we just have 4 plain and simple stands like Anfield? Nothing flash, just does the job and hopefully keeps the noise in the ground.

[reddav72]

said it for years, we wont fill a 70,000 seater or a 60,000. not being negative but realistic. missed a handful of home games in 20 years and i've seen many empty seats. rotherham in the f.a cup springs to mind 28,000 maybe and they brought 7,000. the trouble is everyone wants a ticket till their offered one then the excuses come out,(trust me had 1 spare for monday) 25,000 on the season ticket waiting list but when the chance comes up i'l put money on 2/3s not taking up the chance. we've got the best supporters in the world when it comes to backing the team but don't believe we have 60,000 regulars. unless, and i very much doubt it they slash prices and give the game back to the people who've been priced out.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

We should be building a modified version of the AFL design in my opinion. It was called the Parry Bowl by people but it's actually a perfectly good stadium. The HKS design was the wasted money - crap design and over-priced. Building it would just be throwing good money after bad.

I have always liked the AFL design ...









Some minor modifications (like a single-tiered Kop and more executive boxes on the other stands) would have made it perfect ... By the way, I think that AFL did an interesting job with the roof suspension at the Peter Mokaba stadium in South Africa ... Maybe the same solution could have been used at the New Anfield ...

[incredibleL4ever]

If the club made the buying process easier then they would sell more tickets.  For example the Atletico tickets only go on general sale tomorrow.  That is too late for overseas people to book flights at sensible prices.  then there is the whole telephone line delay thing.  Start the process earlier....reduce the number of days that regulars get priority.....sell most online.....let people select their own seat from those available.  Look at how Barca do it.

[OohCampione]

Sorry, but wouldn't the shadows do everyones head in?

[rafathegaffa83]

I'll say it until I'm blue in teh face. Build a 60,000 seater and expand if we need it later like any other club.

Definitely

Start the process earlier....reduce the number of days that regulars get priority.....sell most online.....let people select their own seat from those available.  Look at how Barca do it.

I'm shocked that in this day and age more PL clubs don't adopt a US-style model and  a) sell tickets online and b) allow ticket buyers to select their own seat. I agree with what VdM earlier in this thread, at a new stadium, season tickets should use the US-style approach of giving the cheapest price for tickets.

[redprodigal]

The current design tried to be different and it looks horrid. Cant we just have 4 plain and simple stands like Anfield? Nothing flash, just does the job and hopefully keeps the noise in the ground.

A matter of opinion but I reckon if they filled in the corners it would look great.

[LiamG]

I have always liked the AFL design ...

Me too, in the other thread i have said the same thing, to me it just looks more like a football ground and more normal, The HKS is just trying too hard to be different and i think the overall design has suffered!!

whats the point in building half a stand? How shit is that gonna look?

The AFL design is more enclosed and i think thats a very good attribute for a ground to have! Obviously its only going to be 60,000, But im sure if they went back to them designs and spoke to AFL there could be a way of re-designing it for expansion in the future!
Afterall Arsenal have only 60,000 seats with no expansion but even they have admitted they will look into it, but they dont need to!

73,000 seats would just be too much of a jump for us i think!

[Pepe Reina Is Rafas Son]

Didn't realise it but just read it on another forum, but every season for the last few anyway there are season tickets available @ Old Trafford. Apparently they advertise it that ST's are available on a first come first served basis.

We don't have as big a pull with the daytrippers as the Mancs do, so certainly no need for a 70,000 seater. Maybe a 60,000 seater with room to expand if needs be.

Most important thing for me is and always has been that a single tier "Kop" end and that the stands are all right on top of the pitch, not 20 yards away.

[LiamG]

Well the Westfalenstadion is only 67,000 seats (80,000 with terracing and seats) , Started off with 54,000 but was later reduced to 42,800 (26k seats) but then went back up to 54,000(38,500 seats) then it went to 68,000 then the seating capacity went up from 52,000 to 67,000 seats for the world cup

Overall it had 3 phases, it started off with just 4 stands no corners, then 3 stands got 2nd tiers and the single biggest stand in europe (die Südtribüne)  then the 3rd phase was adding the corners i think!

Not saying we need to go down the same route but we all know what a great stadium the Westfalenstadion is and its something we could get inspiration from!

[Stussy]

We should have just employed the people who designed the Millenium Stadium and told them to give us that with a kop and 60,000 seats with room for future possible extension. Job would have been done.

[DangerScouse]

Tonight's attendance was 7,000 below capacity. Does anyone really think we need a 70,000 seater stadium? If we build the current design we could end up with a white elephant - oversized over-priced and possibly with a ridiculous away end that would make us the laughing stock of the league.

60,000 seats will do us fine. I don't give a fuck if it's a Monday night. Let's have a stadium that suits our needs not the ego of some here today gone tomorrow c*nt from Texas.

I agree, i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that Arsenal have the ability to expand their capacity between the region of 5-10k (not entirely sure) by putting in smaller seats instead of the oversized ones they have at the moment. Build a 60k seater (with the ability to expand if needed) and let's see how we get on with that first.

[zabadoh]

Build as big as we can and slash ticket prices to fill the stadium.  Donate tickets to schools and universities to build a new generation of Reds.

[Alf]

Monday night is a sample but the ash clould malarkey needs to be put into context. We need to do some genuine research on how many people on the season ticket waiting list would actually stump up if they were offered a season ticket. Say if the club wrote out to everybody on the waiting list and asked for a £100 refundable deposit which would come off people's 1st season ticket.

The ticket pricing structure needs to be more flexible. Pricing West Ham at home on a Monday night at the same price as Everton and Man Utd at the weekend is ridiculous.

There are times when demand outstrips supply but if the club build too big a stadium then they'll never fill the ground or they'll have to reduce ticket prices or increase away allocations which defeats the object of them building a new stadium.

[TSC]

I personally don't think we need a 70k plus capacity.  Would love to be able to stay at home and extend to 60k or thereabouts.

[shanklyboy]

70,000 would be filled for the majority of games.
Part of the problem some people have is believing that they can't get a ticket so why bother trying. Then again if they have had any experience with our ticket office in recent years it's not a surprise.
I've seen grown men weep at the experience.

If people know they can get tickets , then there is more chance of them going,for obvious reasons.

There are those of course who won't bother their arses unless someone takes them by the hand and stuffs a buckshee ticket in their arse pocket along with a family mega popcorn /coke combo.

There is also the opportunity to offer cheap tickets to schools etc, for the games we know will be dodgy attendances.
There are many ways to do it and if the club had any real marketing nouse it shouldn't be an issue.

[Una cerveza, por favor]

.There is also the opportunity to offer cheap tickets to schools etc, for the games we know will be dodgy attendances.
There are many ways to do it and if the club had any real marketing nouse it shouldn't be an issue.

Exactly.

[Sasquatch]

55,000.

Stay at Anfield and expand.